Hi all, I have a player who wants to play as a werewolf PC in a new campaign I'm starting for 1st level evil characters. It's not a power grab, he has a great backstory and everything...but I'm struggling with ideas for how to customize the character's stats so he won't be overpowered. Anybody have ideas on how to accomplish this? Specifically, I'm wondering if anybody has done any 'Savage Species' style racial leveling for Pathfinder rules. Thanks!
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He will be really overpowered if you use the werewolf template. What if he worked into being able to use his hybrid or animal forms and started off with just the standard +2 wisdom/-2 charisma? When everyone is getting to level 2, give him the option to postpone his level to grab hybrid form instead. The DR 10/silver would otherwise be ridiculous at first level.
EDIT: And until he buys a few lycanthrope levels, feel free to take control of his character during a full moon! ;)
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Pathfinder Bestiary Levels has turned several monsters into class levels, allowing you to play them from level one. The natural werewolf is one of them.
Remember you can only take control if he is an afflicted lycanthrope.
Wayfinder #5 has the Wolf Shifter, a 20-level base class that basically reskins a barbarian with shapeshifting abilities. I've never played one, but it looks pretty well done and I remember seeing at least one thread talking about it approvingly. Unless your player is up for playing barbarian-styled, it might not be useful to you, but it might be worth looking at regardless for ideas.
Hey! Thanks Azten for linking to my project! w0ot! Yeah, for all those who want to make a first level were - I only currently have werewolf and weretiger converted, but am working on bear, rat, bat, so on.
The idea is to allow a 1st level pc to make a were'ish creature. So the wolf would get wolfish type characteristics and they evolve as the pc levels. But he doesnt HAVE to take all the were levels in a row either, say if he wanted a fighter or wizard were he could throw in that class at 2nd level. =)
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Hey! Thanks Azten for linking to my project! w0ot! Yeah, for all those who want to make a first level were - I only currently have werewolf and weretiger converted, but am working on bear, rat, bat, so on.
The idea is to allow a 1st level pc to make a were'ish creature. So the wolf would get wolfish type characteristics and they evolve as the pc levels. But he doesnt HAVE to take all the were levels in a row either, say if he wanted a fighter or wizard were he could throw in that class at 2nd level. =)
May I just say I really like your work. It's neat and evocative of the old 3.5 paragon class levels.
If he wants to play a barbarian he could theme his rage. That or an alchemist.
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OR you could just let him make a ranger who chooses the Natural Weapon Combat Style. He chooses Aspect of the Beast and *bam* problem is solved without using 3rd party sources.
He could even make a druid (using either bear shaman or wolf shaman). He gets the totem transformation at 2nd level which mimics 'transforming' into the were-form.
You can even say he has contracted lycanthropy (but without adding templates or otherwise clumpsy templates for characters) so he can pick Aspect of the Beast without needing to meet prerequisites.
First thing first, ask the player if he wants to play a nerfed Werewolf.
The barbarian rage refluffing is a simple fix that only recently occurred to me, but the ranger combat style sounds good too, with a bit of extra fluffing. Great ideas for a "natural" werewolf.
The afflicted lycan 'template' is too much.
I recommend offering up these ideas to the player.
Just don't let him cheese out by playing a lupus Stargazer Ahroun.
And DR 10/Silver is broken? Alchemical Silver is pretty much the cheapest special material, and DR doesn't protect against magic.
the thing I would be worried about as a DM/GM would be him making an army of Werewolf.
Hey! Thanks Azten for linking to my project! w0ot!
The more I make people aware the faster I think you'll work! ;P
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Dankesean mentioned it earlier but it deserves repeating that Wayfinder 5 has a class built around being a werewolf though it is a bit more like a barbarian so if he isn't for that you may have issues. The other option is the aforementioned skinshifter ranger works out well as well and you may want to have him take a feat like the jackelwere lineage from the rival's guide to help enforce his bloodline (at least from an rp standing).
Go back to classic myths. Treat it like a horrible affliction.
Make silver a full blown allergy (saves vs. sickness when he comes in contact with it)
Don't let him have Hybrid form for quite a while (as he slowly learns to control it). Let him shift into a wolf only, and during the three days of the full moon, play up the madness and lust for blood, even take control of his character if his will saves aren't up to snuff.
*Don't* force him to take alternate class levels for his race, or any of that BS. It was a bad idea when they introduced it in Savage Species, and it's never been fixed. All it does is railroad a character for being unique and it almost always ends up making them weaker than other characters of equal level.
Just treat his "upgrades" as a part of his equipment. When other folks would get an attribute boost item, he just gets the bonuses naturally. It's a little more powerful because it's a bonus that can't be stolen or broken, but oh well. I doubt anyone will care much.
The only thing about the character that is a potential problem is the fact that it's communicable. Do something to make it a curse that can't be passed instead of a disease that can, and you won't have to worry about it playing havoc with your game. (maybe it can only be spread during the full moon via a bite while shapeshifted. That's a narrow enough window that it still keeps it's flavor)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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First off, talk to your other players and see if they're cool with this character being a little more powerful than the norm. Provided you and your group are OK with it, it's entirely possible to stick a werewolf in the game as-is. You may have to adjust some encounters at low levels (possibly by relying more on magical attacks than strictly physical ones to overcome his DR), but it's very doable.
That said, if you want to tweak the werewolf, there are really only two things you need to focus on: the Ability Score Adjustments, and the DR.
As OldManAlexi pointed out, the Ability Score Adjustments can be an issue since they let the character dump his physical stats, but still have good scores while in hybrid and wolf form. This may not be an issue with this player, since you've said he isn't doing this for a power grab, but if you're still concerned, I'd suggest ignoring the part about using the wolf's scores and only apply the +2 to Str and Con from the template.
As for DR, check out this product, written by Paizo's own Sean K Reynolds:
It's 3.5, but it's got some usable ideas for replacing the werewolf's DR.
All of you people advising re-skinning Druid/Barb/Alchemist/Ranger fluff are really missing the point.
The guy isn't looking to play a low-grade werewolfish knock-off. He wants to play a terribly afflicted supernatural killing machine.
The main thing that those class abilities do is negate the drawbacks of lycanthropy and toss out all the awesome mystique and lore. No silver weakness, no moon-curse, no fun.
He also isn't looking to be pidgeon-holed into a specific class because of his character concept. He should be able to play a fracking wolf-man wizard if he wants to.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Here's the problem with letting a player play a supernatural killing machine ... it ruins the game.
I disagree. It can ruin the game, but it doesn't have to.
I've played a werewolf in a game before, and I've GMed a party with a lycanthrope in it. In both cases, everyone had fun, and that's really the only thing that matters. It takes some work to keep things interesting, but it is possible.
Here's the problem with letting a player play a supernatural killing machine ... it ruins the game.I disagree. It can ruin the game, but it doesn't have to.
I've played a werewolf in a game before, and I've GMed a party with a lycanthrope in it. In both cases, everyone had fun, and that's really the only thing that matters. It takes some work to keep things interesting, but it is possible.
+1
It requires a lot of work from the GM when there's a power disparity, or when a PC is capable of something the game doesn't assume PCs are capable of, but it's possible. I ran a game with a PC who was a shadow with class levels. He could do things PCs aren't supposed to do and he was immune to a lot of threats that could decimate the rest of the party. I had to GM around it, but, as in Benchak's case, "everyone had fun."
(This isn't to say that attempts at balance are misguided. Just to put another good word in for the GM doing more work hehehe)
Except you're not the OP and therefore you (probably, what with this being the internet) don't know what the guy wants to play either.
Actually, I'm one of the players in OP's game and I don't mind at all if the character in question is a werewolf. Minor power balance issues between characters don't concern me at all. Classes aren't equal. Hell, maybe the secret to balancing a martial character against a caster is to let fighter-types do things like be fracking werewolves.
Alternatively give him the werewolf race and let everyone else start however many levels ahead they should be to keep it even.
^ This is the problem. The entire ECL system is non-functional. It always has been. There is no world in which a 1st level character with an ECL +2 race is the equivalent of a 3rd level character.
Refluffing a class feature might work if players were able to mix and match class features and build their own archetypes, but since that generally isn't possible, what refluffing is actually doing is forcing a player to play something they probably don't want to.