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How does it wirk if a Magus casts Chill Touch or Elemental Touch and uses it with Spell Strike.
There are two possibilities with Spell Combat:
a) The Magus gets to make all his Attacks with Spellstrike
b) The Magus gets only one Spellstrike per Full Attack
I´m assuming you can make as many Spellstrike as you have Charges ,right?
How does it wirk if a Magus casts Chill Touch or Elemental Touch and uses it with Spell Strike.
There are two possibilities with Spell Combat:
a) The Magus gets to make all his Attacks with Spellstrike
b) The Magus gets only one Spellstrike per Full Attack
I´m assuming you can make as many Spellstrike as you have Charges ,right?
If you are using spell combat and casting the spell before taking your full BAB worth of attacks, you would get a free attack with spellstrike (i.e., the free touch attack that comes with casting the spell) plus you can make all your regular attacks with the benefits of the spell (up to the number of touch attacks the spell grants).
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How does it wirk if a Magus casts Chill Touch or Elemental Touch and uses it with Spell Strike.
Elemental Touch is not a touch spell, so it doesn't work with Spellstrike in any way.
If you interpret Chill Touch the way most of us (and James Jacobs) do, then you get one zap per level. This means if you can attack 3 times in a round, any (or all) of those 3 attacks can result in a zap (as well as weapon damage).
There are two possibilities with Spell Combat:
a) The Magus gets to make all his Attacks with Spellstrike
b) The Magus gets only one Spellstrike per Full Attack
I´m assuming you can make as many Spellstrike as you have Charges ,right?
There is no limitation on Spellstrike. If you have just cast a touch spell, or you are holding the charge on a touch spell, you can choose to use Spellstrike on any weapon attack you make.
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Grick, I think the question he's trying to get answered is what happens the following round if you still have charges left.
Since spellstrike requires you to cast a spell to get that free touch through your weapon, if you have charges left and want to use spellstrike that round do you have to cast another spell and lose all those charges or can you keep spellstriking with the held charges?
I'd actually like to hear your interpretation on this too.
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Actually, Grick wrote a whole guide.
Spellstrike allows you to deliver touch spell attacks with a weapon attack instead. It's not only viable for the first attack with a multiple-charge touch attack spell.
I'm pretty sure this has been stated by James or possibly SKR (after the issue was flogged to death numerous times) on the rules board. Don't have time to search up and post a link right now.
What I´m actually asking is what happens to the free melee attack that Spellstrike+Spell Combat grants you. So I guess it´s
Round 1: Spell Combat: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds :Make normal Attack routine with Attacks enhanced by Chill Touch.
Or
Round 1: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds: get +1attack with Chill Touch until you have no charges left
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Oh! Looks like the recent FAQ on Spellstrike actually mentions held charges:
A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.
Thus ends the "can Spellstrike deliver a held charge or only the initial casting?" debate.
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What I´m actually asking is what happens to the free melee attack that Spellstrike+Spell Combat grants you. So I guess it´s
Round 1: Spell Combat: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds :Make normal Attack routine with Attacks enhanced by Chill Touch.Or
Round 1: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds: get +1attack with Chill Touch until you have no charges left
Spell Combat does not grant you any extra attacks at all. It lets you cast a (normally standard action casting time) spell in addition to making whatever attacks you normally get as part of a single full-round action.
If the spell you cast is a touch spell, then the spell grants you a free attack - Spell Combat is not granting that attack.
I have read that FAQ but it does not answer my question.
BTW: The shocking part of the FAQ is the clarification that you can use Spell Combat with Cantrips.
What I´m actually asking is what happens to the free melee attack that Spellstrike+Spell Combat grants you. So I guess it´s
Round 1: Spell Combat: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds :Make normal Attack routine with Attacks enhanced by Chill Touch.Or
Round 1: Cast Chill Touch get +1attack
subsequent Rounds: get +1attack with Chill Touch until you have no charges leftSpell Combat does not grant you any extra attacks at all. It lets you cast a (normally standard action casting time) spell in addition to making whatever attacks you normally get as part of a single full-round action.
If the spell you cast is a touch spell, then the spell grants you a free attack - Spell Combat is not granting that attack.
Yeah I know you get an extra Attack in Place of the Touch Attack.So if you already hold the Charge do you still get that extra Attack or do you channel the touch with your regular melee Attacks?
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I have read that FAQ but it does not answer my question.
Sorry, that post of mine wasn't a reply to you; you just ninja'd me. :)
So if you already hold the Charge do you still get that extra Attack or do you channel the touch with your regular melee Attacks?
This is covered in the normal rules for touch attacks and holding the charge, in the Core Rulebook. I'll let you look it up on your own time, but the simple version is that a touch spell only grants you a freebie attack on the round you cast it. On subsequent rounds, you have to spend actions as normal for your attacks.
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what happens the following round if you still have charges left.
Since spellstrike requires you to cast a spell to get that free touch through your weapon, if you have charges left and want to use spellstrike that round do you have to cast another spell and lose all those charges or can you keep spellstriking with the held charges?
Others pretty much covered it, but here's some examples:
Magus with +6/+1 BAB and Haste.
Round 1:
Begin Spell Combat (Full round action)
Cast Chill Touch
Take a 5' step
Use Spellstrike to deliver the free touch attack (that casting a touch spell granted you) with your sword. Hit orc, and chill him.
Take normal full attack routine with your weapon. Make three attacks, each one that hits also chills the target.
Round 2:
Begin Spell Combat (Full round action)
Take normal full attack routine with your weapon. Make three attacks, each one that hits also chills the target.
Cast Shocking Grasp defensively (Any remaining charge from Chill Touch now dissipates)
Use Spellstrike to deliver the free touch attack (that casting a touch spell granted you) with your sword. Hit orc and zap him.
If that last attack missed, you would be holding the charge on shocking grasp, so the next attack you make (if you don't cast a spell before then) can discharge the shocking grasp. (AoO, normal attacks next round, etc.)
That's quite the orc, Grick.
It's heavily templated.
what happens the following round if you still have charges left.
Since spellstrike requires you to cast a spell to get that free touch through your weapon, if you have charges left and want to use spellstrike that round do you have to cast another spell and lose all those charges or can you keep spellstriking with the held charges?
Others pretty much covered it, but here's some examples:
Magus with +6/+1 BAB and Haste.
Round 1:
Begin Spell Combat (Full round action)
Cast Chill Touch
Take a 5' step
Use Spellstrike to deliver the free touch attack (that casting a touch spell granted you) with your sword. Hit orc, and chill him.
Take normal full attack routine with your weapon. Make three attacks, each one that hits also chills the target.Round 2:
Begin Spell Combat (Full round action)
Take normal full attack routine with your weapon. Make three attacks, each one that hits also chills the target.
Cast Shocking Grasp defensively (Any remaining charge from Chill Touch now dissipates)
Use Spellstrike to deliver the free touch attack (that casting a touch spell granted you) with your sword. Hit orc and zap him.If that last attack missed, you would be holding the charge on shocking grasp, so the next attack you make (if you don't cast a spell before then) can discharge the shocking grasp. (AoO, normal attacks next round, etc.)
Time for some thread Necro (ARISE!), but reading this raised a related question.
On Round 2, what would happen if you cast shocking grasp before the chill touch expired? Could you cast Shocking grasp first and hit someone with both at the same time?
The reason I'm asking is because Chill Touch has a duration of instantaneous, which means (afaik) it's there until it's used up. There's no concentration, it's not being held, so casting another spell shouldn't interrupt it.
Is that correct?
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On Round 2, what would happen if you cast shocking grasp before the chill touch expired? Could you cast Shocking grasp first and hit someone with both at the same time?
Normally I would say that you're holding the charge of chill touch, so casting any other spell causes the held charge to dissipate.
However, recently James Jacobs said that you only hold the charge of chill touch until it's been discharged once, after that it no longer functions as a touch spell, but works more like an innate special attack that triggers on touch.
This would mean only the first use of chill touch works with Spellstrike.
However, we have a different post by Jason Bulmahn where he... heavily implies that you can use Spellstrike with all the uses from chill touch.
What this means is that if both of them are correct, once you've used Chill Touch once, you can cast any other spell you like and use them all together.
This would mean you could cast Chill Touch (at CL 2+), touch a rock or something, then cast Frostbite, touch a rock or something, then cast Shocking Grasp, and deliver all three with your next weapon attack.
Or, ignoring spellstrike, cast Elemental Touch then chill touch then frostbite then shocking grasp and deliver all four with a single touch.
I'm not sure if James took this into consideration when he made his post.
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However, we have a different post by Jason Bulmahn where he... heavily implies that you can use Spellstrike with all the uses from chill touch.
What this means is that if both of them are correct, once you've used Chill Touch once, you can cast any other spell you like and use them all together.
This would mean you could cast Chill Touch (at CL 2+), touch a rock or something, then cast Frostbite, touch a rock or something, then cast Shocking Grasp, and deliver all three with your next weapon attack.
Or, ignoring spellstrike, cast Elemental Touch then chill touch then frostbite then shocking grasp and deliver all four with a single touch.
I'm not sure if James took this into consideration when he made his post.
So a 5th lvl Magus can:
Cast Chill Touch and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon (instead of touch attack)
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch.
Round 2
The Magus could cast Shocking Grasp, and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon, dealing Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch. Next round he'd still have 1 Chill Touch usage left.
And if we add Quicken spell...
New Round 2
Quicken cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage as well.
Then, cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack with weapon, dealing Chill damage.
Guh.
So a 5th lvl Magus can:
Cast Chill Touch and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon (instead of touch attack)
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch.
Yes, but he takes the -2 penalty from Spell Combat on all of those attacks.
Round 2
The Magus could cast Shocking Grasp, and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon, dealing Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch. Next round he'd still have 1 Chill Touch usage left.
Yep. All at -2 penalty, possible concentration checks needed if he's casting defensively.
And if we add Quicken spell...
New Round 2
Quicken cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage as well.
Then, cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack with weapon, dealing Chill damage.
Yep. Though the level 5 magus would need some way to cast the quickened spell. Third hand to hold a metamagic rod, maybe.
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So a 5th lvl Magus can:
Cast Chill Touch and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon (instead of touch attack)
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch.Yes, but he takes the -2 penalty from Spell Combat on all of those attacks.
Round 2
The Magus could cast Shocking Grasp, and use Spellstrike to attack with weapon, dealing Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack again with weapon, and apply Chill Touch. Next round he'd still have 1 Chill Touch usage left.Yep. All at -2 penalty, possible concentration checks needed if he's casting defensively.
And if we add Quicken spell...
New Round 2
Quicken cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage as well.
Then, cast Shocking Grasp, using SpellStrike to attack with weapon, dealing shocking grasp and chill damage.
Then, using Spell Combat, attack with weapon, dealing Chill damage.Yep. Though the level 5 magus would need some way to cast the quickened spell. Third hand to hold a metamagic rod, maybe.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight, so it's a higher level Magus. My bad. I got carried away with my exampling.
I hit the FAQ on this post as this seems that chill touch and similar spells need official clarification.
On Round 2, what would happen if you cast shocking grasp before the chill touch expired? Could you cast Shocking grasp first and hit someone with both at the same time?Normally I would say that you're holding the charge of chill touch, so casting any other spell causes the held charge to dissipate.
However, recently James Jacobs said that you only hold the charge of chill touch until it's been discharged once, after that it no longer functions as a touch spell, but works more like an innate special attack that triggers on touch.
This would mean only the first use of chill touch works with Spellstrike.
However, we have a different post by Jason Bulmahn where he... heavily implies that you can use Spellstrike with all the uses from chill touch.
What this means is that if both of them are correct, once you've used Chill Touch once, you can cast any other spell you like and use them all together.
This would mean you could cast Chill Touch (at CL 2+), touch a rock or something, then cast Frostbite, touch a rock or something, then cast Shocking Grasp, and deliver all three with your next weapon attack.
Or, ignoring spellstrike, cast Elemental Touch then chill touch then frostbite then shocking grasp and deliver all four with a single touch.
I'm not sure if James took this into consideration when he made his post.
While I'd like it if both were correct I get the feeling it's going to be FAQ'd one way or the other, JJs or JBs. I know I for one hit FAQ on that, to get some follow up to both statements and how they do or do not interact.
I have a question.
Can a Magus, on following rounds use his longsword 2-handed to get extra damage and still apply chill-touch?
If the magus have cast chill touch or frost bite in the first round - and don't use spellcombat in the following round he could 2-hand his longsword. And still discharge a chill or frost charge on each hit.
lolz this is just absurd i realy want this clarefied as im gonna play a magus in our campain as my barb died and this guy starts at lvl 5 and i know my gm doesnt like me outputting this kind of damage lolz!
shocking grasp and atacking twice is bad enough not telling it will be keen and critical treathening at 15-20
On Round 2, what would happen if you cast shocking grasp before the chill touch expired? Could you cast Shocking grasp first and hit someone with both at the same time?Normally I would say that you're holding the charge of chill touch, so casting any other spell causes the held charge to dissipate.
However, recently James Jacobs said that you only hold the charge of chill touch until it's been discharged once, after that it no longer functions as a touch spell, but works more like an innate special attack that triggers on touch.
This would mean only the first use of chill touch works with Spellstrike.
However, we have a different post by Jason Bulmahn where he... heavily implies that you can use Spellstrike with all the uses from chill touch.
What this means is that if both of them are correct, once you've used Chill Touch once, you can cast any other spell you like and use them all together.
This would mean you could cast Chill Touch (at CL 2+), touch a rock or something, then cast Frostbite, touch a rock or something, then cast Shocking Grasp, and deliver all three with your next weapon attack.
Or, ignoring spellstrike, cast Elemental Touch then chill touch then frostbite then shocking grasp and deliver all four with a single touch.
I'm not sure if James took this into consideration when he made his post.
Grick, are you referring just to the link you gave, or somewhere else as well, in your 2nd and 3rd sentences above? JJ is still calling them touch attacks, just that they are not held charges, so I don't see, even in what he says, anything to indicate that the remaining charges would no longer function with Spellstrike.
JJ is still calling them touch attacks, just that they are not held charges, so I don't see, even in what he says, anything to indicate that the remaining charges would no longer function with Spellstrike.
Spellstrike only works with touch spells. If you had a ghost magus, he couldn't use his incorporeal touch attack with Spellstrike. Likewise, a normal magus who casts Elemental Touch gets a touch attack, but since it's not a touch spell, he can't use Spellstrike.
So if after the first touch, Chill Touch becomes a touch attack instead of a touch spell, it would no longer function with Spellstrike. Fortunately, JB said/implied it still works, so unless you're using JJ's version but not JB's version, and only then interpreting it in a specific way, you can still use Spellstrike with all the touches granted by the spell.
2: As a monk2/sorc3 with a party haste: Rnd 1- Cast Chill touch move to threaten; Rnd 2 FoB for 3 attacks all of them possibly discharging the Chill touch if they hit.
You could also make an attack in round 1. Casting a touch spell grants you a touch attack as a free action any time during that turn. You can't use your unarmed strike to deliver the free one, but you can attempt the touch.
After the first delivery of chill touch, it stops being a touch spell, so it no longer can be delivered via unarmed strike or natural weapon. (Those methods of delivery are part of Holding the Charge, and since you're not holding the charge you can't use them.) So the first hit you make delivers the spell, the rest do not. You'll have to use touch attacks for the rest.
3. As a Druid x with Natural Spell: (Assuming Wildshaped to pouncing creature beforehand when entering enemy area)Rnd 1- Cast Frostbite (x touches); Rnd 2-Cast Bulls Str(x minutes); Rnd 3-Pounce with whatever attacks, 1 of them triggering Frostbite (seeing it as only one limb having the frostbite charge and not being monk not able to make all attacks with same limb) Since it doesn't count as holding the charge can cast other spells without losing it.
Using JJ's interpretation, it's still a spell until you deliver it once. So casting bull's strength will dissipate your frostbite. You would need to cast bull's first, then frostbite, then pounce. The first attack to hit would deliver a frostbite, because it's a spell and a held charge. Then it converts to a touch attack, so any further natural attacks wouldn't deliver it, you'd have to make normal touch attacks (standard action) to do so.
So if after the first touch, Chill Touch becomes a touch attack instead of a touch spell, it would no longer function with Spellstrike.
and
After the first delivery of chill touch, it stops being a touch spell, so it no longer can be delivered via unarmed strike or natural weapon.
and
Using JJ's interpretation, it's still a spell until you deliver it once.
Grick, I understand that Spellstrike requires the attacks to come from a a touch spell not just be touch attacks. However I'm not understanding what your statements above, about it no longer being a spell, are based on. Aren't these still effects of the touch spell regardless of whether they are technically "held charges" or some thing else that lets the charges be channeled after the 1st round?
Just use 3.5 rules until paizo decides to define how it works.
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Grick, I understand that Spellstrike requires the attacks to come from a a touch spell not just be touch attacks. However I'm not understanding what your statements above, about it no longer being a spell, are based on. Aren't these still effects of the touch spell regardless of whether they are technically "held charges" or some thing else that lets the charges be channeled after the 1st round?
The first quote you have there was addressing Spellstrike.
Spellstrike: "...he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
If it's a touch spell, it functions like a touch spell, and you hold the charge, and everything works the way you would expect had JJ not ever mentioned it.
However, by changing it to not hold the charge, and to not dissipate if you cast something else, you're causing it to not follow the rules for touch spells. Based on this, had JB not said/implied it works with Spellstrike, you could argue that you are no longer delivering the spell, you're just making a touch attack (just like Elemental Touch).
The next quote was about delivering a held charge with an unarmed strike. The rules about delivering a held charge with an unarmed strike are from the Holding the Charge rules. Since, using JJ's interpretation, you don't hold the charge, then the rules for holding the charge don't apply.
The last quote doesn't make sense without the right context:
Chill touch gives you a touch attack you can use a number of times equal to your caster level. Those uses last until you use them; you recharge them by re-casting the spell. You do get a touch in the round you cast it (since it's a touch spell, you use the rules for touch spells). When used in Spell Combat or Spellstrike or that stuff, it works like shocking grasp or inflict light wounds on that first round, after which it's just an additional touch attack that you make on its own or as a secondary attack if you also attack with a one-handed weapon.
At least... that's how the current rules work. I'm not sure if that's the way they were INTENDED to work.
That's where I got the part about acting like a real touch spell until the first delivery. However, re-reading it, it sounds like it might automatically convert from a touch spell after the first round, which means the druid could cast another spell after casting chill touch, but before touching anything, as long as it's not in the same turn as casting chill touch.
Re-reading that comment brings up another thing I missed: "it's just an additional touch attack that you make on its own or as a secondary attack if you also attack with a one-handed weapon."
Before, JJ has said making a touch attack is a standard action, and can't be done with multiple attacks from high BAB. This implies that a touch attack can be made as a natural weapon. A free attack, even at -5, has pretty significant implications.
Anyway, it feels like things are being taken out of context, and I'm misrepresenting James by not having everything quoted correctly. I'd like it to be clear that even though I don't understand where James is coming from on this, and that I suspect he didn't intend for his post to be taken in such a way that it changes all sorts of other rules, it's not that James is just crazy, since the only reason he mentioned it not holding a charge is because someone specifically asked him. So other people have assumed it works this way all along, and James is one of them. And generally when that happens, either I'm completely out of line in how I'm reading it, or the rules don't quite match up to the intent and/or how older RPGs worked.