Just looking for some opinions. Obviously no one 'right' answer. Very much a YMMV question.
Let's say the following criteria.
1) Must be a class, multiclass combo, or class archtype from Core, APG, UC, or UM.
2) Assume standard WBL chart from Core (399). Items must come from one of the above 4 books, or rules contained within them.
3) Surviving to 20 isn't a concern, only performance once Level 20 is reached.
Performance is defined as...
A) Ability to contribute to a balanced group against larger threats at that level, from defeating epic monsters to winning wars, etc.
B) Ability to solo foes, conditions from ideal to total ambush
C) Ability to handle/control/defeat specifically the other classes in your personal top 5, 1 on 1
D) Ability to affect the world as a whole
[How those criteria are ordered is up to the person replying, what you consider the most important use as your most important, what you consider the least important use as your least important, you know how you game not me.]
Only 5 classes total can be listed. (I.E. If you have a tie for 2nd, then what's after them is 4th not 3rd.)
You can include 1 honorable mention, if their is a class that you feel at level 20 would never make your list, but would be the most unquestionably fun to play of any class that could meet the above criteria. [Generally this is an optimizers question, but let's face it, some classes are just fun as hell even when they suck powerlevel wise]
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I'm not sure you're taking this entirely seriously....
I'm going with, and in no particular order, Wizard, AM Barbarian, Master Summoner, Cleric, plus one other class that gets miracle/wish
1. AM Am
There is no 2-5 or honorable mentions in comparison to that... thing.
Okay, I bite (and won't list 5 wizards, or what Avenger did)
1. Wizard (yes, once, create your demiplane and you've won .. pretty much) Dwarf void elementalist, if it matters.
2. Ninja, you're freakin' invisible, not even the gods can find you.
Double barrel, merciful, guns, underhanded, sap master. If you can't kill it, it's immune to nonlethal or sneak attacks. Effect on the world ... it will not even know you exist if you're good enough.
3. Unbreakable fighter - because I hate mind-affecting things
4. Some Paladin should be in here, right? You'll be fighting outsiders at that level, so banishment is a good bet.
5. Master Summoner? Because you'll have an army
Out of competition: AM Barbarian, and all other builds exploiting broken points in the system
Not mentioned: all other full spellcasters beside the wizard, because it ends with the same cheese of 9th lvl spells.
p.s. I'm in switzerland, so cheese is nothing bad, I'm not saying that 9th lvl spells are broken or anything like that.
Samurai
Wizard, cleric, sorcerer, oracle, witch. Honourable mention druid, i hate them but they probably should be first if well built.
Summoners are probably win but i have never played or dm'd one, if they are half as bad as they seem i probably wouldn't play/run for very long.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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AM BARBARIAN
BATTY-BAT
Other martial classesWhy no spellcasters (other than BATTY-BAT) ?
Because AM BARBARIAN killed them all, obviously.
It seems as if you guys haven't found out yet, but AM BARBARIAN got severely limited by the most recent FAQ attack:
Bride of the FAQ Attack!
Tuesday, February 28, 2012
She’s ready to pounce!
If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.
One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.
Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
Not that AM BARBARIAN won't still do shittons of damage, but he's not as broken as he was before this FAQ, that's for sure.
1) Half-Elven Summoner (we've all seen what a properly built Eidolon can do + buffs and spells like Plane Shift, Teleport, etc. At that level you can twin too.)
2) Halfling Master Summoner (At 17th level I can summon 24-48 augmented Elder Elementals a day and then buff 'em up. What can you do?)
3) Elven Wizard (can't argue against the point about being able to create your own Demi-plane)
4) Human Eldritch Archer (Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4. Totally killer.)
5) Human Paladin (Oath of Vengeance Archetype with Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish Bloodline - 1200 hit points in swift healing a day, DR 10/Evil, high saves, numerous immunities, Banishment and the ability to super-charge weapons, grow to large size, cast spells AND Smite pretty much at will? Yes please.)
I didn't put these in any order necessarily.
AM BARBARIAN
BATTY-BAT
Other martial classesWhy no spellcasters (other than BATTY-BAT) ?
Because AM BARBARIAN killed them all, obviously.
I can't ever include as an ultimate power a character who can be negated by a levitate spell.
Can someone explain AM Barbarian? I'm not familiar with that term.
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Can someone explain AM Barbarian? I'm not familiar with that term.
A poster on these boards got tired of all the ridiculous claims that spellcasters always win, and created a barbarian character that might as well have Kill Casty as an at-will ability. One of his prime features is that he has a mount, BATTY-BAT, with a ridiculous speed and even more ridiculous perception, which allows AM to target and one-shot the spellcaster before they even realize that he's there.
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1) Wizard
Spellcasting gets crazy, and at higher levels the things you can do with it are just mind-blowing. Wizard edges out over Sorcerer, but just barely.
2) Sorcerer
See 1
3) Paladin
Most high level opponents are SUPER evils, but even then, you've got such a versatile array of weapons at your disposal (You DID take unsanctioned knowledge, right?) that you manage to be a damage-dealing powerhouse with personal healing AND group utility. Best combat class, hands down. (IMO)
4) Inquisitor
Much like the paladin, the inquisitor has a wide variety of abilities he can choose from, but if he decided to focus fire one person, he will WRECK you. It's tough keeping track of all the bonuses sometimes, but man, when they all stack, it gets pretty nuts.
5) Bard
I know, I know. Crazy, right? But hear me out. When applying archetypes, the bard is one of the most versatile classes around. He gets all the toys he needs to do top-notch damage, spellcasting, crowd control, or any other roles you can conjure up. Remember, viability as a strong contender in a role is my definition of power, and a properly built bard can perform just about ANY role and shine with the best of them.
Honorable Mention: Cavalier
Every time I've played a cavalier I've had a blast. They are such a great mix of buffing and martial prowess that it's hard not to like them. I never even play them as mounted characters and I still love 'em.
Ninja at level 20 they do what they were always meant to do by level 1 , be invisible and kill things.
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1. Um, Alchemist.
Why? Philosopher's stone means MONEY.
Because of Money, the Alchemist is the only character that keeps improving when others reach their max. 50,000 gold per month is nothing to shake a stick at. Other casters may be able to cast Wish, but the Alchemist Doppleganger Simulacrum make him about as unkillable as any other caster. Greater Alchemical Simulacrum means you can put that Gold to immediate crafting use and make your own alchemical army.
Can he solo a Terrasque? Yes. Balor? Yes. AM Barbarian? Yes. Ninja? Yes. Wizards and Clerics want to be his friend because he can bankroll their permanency and wish and miracle needs.
1: Wizard. Most versatile caster, if he needs spells on other lists, he can usually summon something that has it.
2: Cleric. Good combination of fighting (with self buffs) and casting. Best healer (though healing isn't all that important in combat), and has great utility spells.
3: Witch. Unique spell list that has enough variety to do nearly all that a full caster wants. Access to powerful hexes makes up for the few gaps in their list.
4: Druid. Can cast fully, can fight well, can spam summons, has access to a domain or a powerful pet. Probably the most to gain from optimizing, so not as easy to make power characters as the first 3.
5: Summoner. Even though they aren't a full caster, their spells are pretty close to being full. In many ways they play like an arcane druid that specializes in summoning. Or if they are a synthisist like a combat druid. Best of the spontaneous casters IMHO.
I put the rest of the spontaneous classes below this, and the straight damage dealers below that. Reason for this is most of the martial or striker (fighter, ninja, alchemist, ect) to be lower is versatility. Just too many enemies that can't be felled with straight damage. Gear selection can help with this, but its not as versatile as just having class ability to do it.
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At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.
Death of old age is not a spell or magical effect.
In fact, reading the ability, monks do not actually become outsiders at all.
wizards get immortality as a feat option at lvl 20.
alchemist can gain eternal youth, altough it doesn't clearly state if you die of old age, but I don't think that's the case.
2) Halfling Master Summoner (At 17th level I can summon 24-48 augmented Elder Elementals a day and then buff 'em up. What can you do?)
Make that 32-64 Augmented Elder Elementals a day.
No mention of the Bard yet? I am disappoint.
1. Bard. They can make everyone better. Everyone.
2. Druid. Is that a blue jay or a druid ready to throw the power of a tsunami at you?
3. Summoner. Yep, I stop you from getting hurt by using my summons. No need for a cleric if there is no damage taken, right?
4. Fighter. Massive damage output with almost any weapon they know how to use.
5. Witch. Forced reincarnation, natural disasters, and making people into cookies. That's a good day too.
Whether or not summoners are on the list depends on whether or not they have a GM that lets them work around their magic item restrictions via custom items. If they can do that, then they'll be able to make good use of Twin Eidolon (which lets the summoner turn into a copy of his eidolon).
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Arcane Sorceror with the feat Craft Staff and the skill Craft Gemcutting.
Enchnant Wish onto staff...
Profit with Arcane Apothesis... 60+ wishes a day.
You know that staves can only hold a maximum of 10 charges. Also, I think you still have to pay the cost of the Wish, not sure though.
You will also need to figure out just how many charges are used with the casting of a Wish. Monster Summoning VI for example uses 3 charges per casting.
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No mention of the Bard yet? I am disappoint.
1. Bard. They can make everyone better. Everyone.
2. Druid. Is that a blue jay or a druid ready to throw the power of a tsunami at you?
3. Summoner. Yep, I stop you from getting hurt by using my summons. No need for a cleric if there is no damage taken, right?
4. Fighter. Massive damage output with almost any weapon they know how to use.
5. Witch. Forced reincarnation, natural disasters, and making people into cookies. That's a good day too.
See my post :D
I was going to put the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch as top but these classes don't solo well that ruled them out. As powerful as arcane full casters are they can't solo one on one when ambushed. Prepared they will dominate but in ambush a wizard can be dead before they get their first spell off. (I've seen this happen in games)
1) Inquisitor: contributes well to balanced group with good mix of combat and spell casting. Lots of defenses, not likely to be caught by surprise and will win initiative so ambushes in one on one situation is not problem. Activating power are swift actions so they can get those up quick. They can easily take on others in the top 5. Any 20th level character can affect the world as whole. Sure a wizard does it more flashy but the Inquisitor is thing to be feared.
2) Cleric: Definitely supports a balanced group. Can survive an ambush as they have good defenses but not as good as the inquisitor. They can come close with the right domains though. Clerics can defeat a Inquisitor but the Inquisitor is better at defeating a cleric. World changing for Cleric at 20th, they are religious leaders and you can change the world through religious doctrine.
3) Bard: A good mix of everything that supports a balance group. With the right archetype they can solo pretty good in ambush. They are little light on the defenses though. Depending the archetype they could be real pain for Clerics, less for the Inquisitor but could probably hold their own. For world changing I view Bard like the media, they can sway opinion on world scale by 20th level. The right performance could move nations to war.
4) Druids: Much like the cleric only nature oriented. Very good at solo during an ambush and better when prepared. A Druid has shot at defeating the other Inquisitor, Cleric and Bard but it would be tough fight that go either way. Being religious like the cleric with nature on their side, they can direct nature to affect economies on world scale.
5) Paladin: A strong combat machine that works well with group. Has the defense to take the first hit in ambush while solo and if the attacker is evil there is nothing they can do to stop the Paladin. Religious much like the cleric so massive world influence there and leading armies just adds to the world changing affects.
Honorable Mention: The wizard which would be in my top five if they could handle solo encounters in an ambush situation. But for everything else the wizard excels greatly. They are great for balanced party, they could defeat any of the top 5 if they prepared to take them out. They can change the world through access of knowledge and knowledge is power.
I purposely left spells out of world changing affects. While 9th level spells can have some heavy impacts it's not the spell in my opinion that is changing this but the actions of the person casting the spell. The spells can aid in changing the world but really any 20th level character should have that ability even with out using spells.
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Arcane Sorceror with the feat Craft Staff and the skill Craft Gemcutting.
Enchnant Wish onto staff...
Profit with Arcane Apothesis... 60+ wishes a day.
You know that staves can only hold a maximum of 10 charges. Also, I think you still have to pay the cost of the Wish, not sure though.
You will also need to figure out just how many charges are used with the casting of a Wish. Monster Summoning VI for example uses 3 charges per casting.
Arcane Apothesis at level 20 lets yo sue 3 spell levels instead of a charge.
You do not use the material components when using a wish off a staff.... However in the enchanting process you need to use enough material for 50 castings. 25,000 in diamond dust x 50 = 1.25 million (above wealth by level). HOWEVER you will note I also listed the skill Craft Gemcutting. When you craft something it USUALLY takes a long time, but you get the item for 1/3rd the cost (assuming you make the skill roll). So spend 410k on Raw Diamonds, use FABRICATE to turn that into 1.3 Mil of Diamond dust and enchant Wish onto your staff.
Now enjoy 60+ wishes per day at 0 cost.
Not sure where you are getting this 1/3 cost thing.
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the
same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item
to be created)
All the particular craft skill allows you to do in conjunction with the spell is actually allow you to turn one mineral into another. It says nothing about crafting it at a lesser cost.
why is the druid spoken of so highly, yes he is great bWhy is the but his final ability is severly lacking as you don't change that much unless absolutlly needed.
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I was going to put the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch as top but these classes don't solo well that ruled them out. As powerful as arcane full casters are they can't solo one on one when ambushed. Prepared they will dominate but in ambush a wizard can be dead before they get their first spell off. (I've seen this happen in games)
Contingency.