So what's the best way to make a thrown weapon character?
Is there a "best way?"
Thrown weapon builds suffer very high feat taxes to be even remotely effective. It was a bit easier in 3.5, the changes to "far shot" make it even tougher to build one in PF.
You will need all the standard ranged weapon feats (PBS, Precise Shot, etc.) You will need TWF. You will need some means of increasing your weapons range.
One thing that helps in PF is the "Starknife" which is basically a dagger with a 20' range.
To be really effective you're going to need dual "returning" weapons to start, and even more after you get multiple attacks per round.
Unless you can convince your GM to have them act like thrown weapons in 4e.
It's a tough road to travel.
Alchemist.
Is there a "best way?"
Thrown weapon builds suffer very high feat taxes to be even remotely effective. It was a bit easier in 3.5, the changes to "far shot" make it even tougher to build one in PF.
...
It's a tough road to travel.
Exactly, but I think it an interesting option that shouldn't be ignored. So this is why I started the thread.
The starknife is good but what about the handaxe? Higher damage die means you're doing a little more consistently but your peak damage is lower.
Far Shot is still useful and you only take half the range penalties fora thrown weapon, and that is especially useful in wide spaces. Is Distance Thrower (UC 97) worth the feat?
What about stacking as many attacks as possible? Even as a fighter, TWF/RS is going to hurt for a few levels. Is ranger a good way to go?
Alchemist.
Very effective throwers when it comes to bombs but what about more traditional knives/axes? Are they a good choice still? Why?
Matt, I am a huge fan of thrower concepts. I've built several. Perhaps my favorite was my dagger throwing spellthief in 3.5. He was a lot of fun.
I have not built a thrower yet in PF. Since I love the concept I immediately looked at it when PF first came out and decided that other than the starknife, pretty much everything I saw was a nerf of the thrower, so I was sorta bummed.
I have not looked again since the APG and other books have come out. I will have to see if there is more that can be done now.
I liked the throwing rogue gaining sneak attack concept too...
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Check the Peltast in this supplement, it is currently the only way to do a viable character throwing traditional weapons.
Is 3E allowed, though? Is the DM open to using 3E Far Shot? I still have NO idea why they nerfed it, I'd really like an answer to that some day.
If either of those questions can be answered yes, throwing builds become significantly more viable to make.
Check the Peltast in this supplement, it is currently the only way to do a viable character throwing traditional weapons.
I'd love to, sadly I don't have any money right now until my next check comes in and the peltast isn't on the SRD.
@Adamantine Dragon
There is a ton more out there for throwers, I'm hoping this thread will be good to discuss said ideas and get a good idea of how to make throwers.
@Streamofthesky
I don't see why 3e material couldn't be discussed as well. It's compatible, merely up to GM approval. I don't think far shot was nerfed, though. I think Far Shot was just implemented with different designs in mind
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Alchemist is always a good choice for a character focused on throwing things. An Alchemist starts with Throw Anything, which would negate any penalties from throwing improvised weapons. People seem to forget, Throw Anything means anything is a throwable, not just knives, daggers, darts, stars, etc. Pick up some rocks and throw them, they're easy to find and restock yourself with. Rush into a room and throw a table at someone, throw chairs, throw mugs, throw kegs- throw everything.
Don't forget, people can always be thrown too- pick up a gnome and toss him at the half-orc mouthing off at you.
Monk.
Throwing temple swords.
Flurry of blows.
? ? ?
Profit.
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I'd love to, sadly I don't have any money right now until my next check comes in and the peltast isn't on the SRD.
Well, darn.
You know what ? I'm just gonna copy-paste it for you... and for free !The content we wrote is good enough that we have nothing to hide, and this one will serve as a second preview for anyone that could be interested in the supplement but apparently isn't convinced enough yet.
(Don't tell anyone I did this !)
Hope it helps. :)
*Cough*
Class: Fighter
Dagger throwers, pilum experts, or tribal masters of
the boomerang, peltasts are specialized skirmishers
and masters in the art of hurling weapons swiftly and
quickly. Light warriors focusing on hit and run
strategies over brute force, peltasts hinder their
enemies from afar by striking a weak point, and focus
on teamwork to bring them down.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Peltasts aren’t
proficient with medium and heavy armor or tower
shields. They are only proficient with simple weapons,
plus light hammers, throwing axes, throwing shields,
starknifes, tridents, amentums, chakrams, pilums,
bolas, boomerangs and nets.
Skirmisher Skills: A pelstast gains 4 skill points + a
number of skill points equal to his Intelligence modifier
at each level, instead of the normal 2 skill points +
Intelligence modifier at each level. Furthermore,
Acrobatics (Dex), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int),
Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (Nature)
(Int), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion)
(Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Survival (Wis) are all
added as class skills for the peltast.
Master Thrower (Ex): A peltast gains the Quick
Draw and Far Shot feats at first level.
These feats replace the bonus feat gained at 1st-level.
Tactical Awareness (Ex): At 2nd level, a peltast
gains a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus
increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd level (to a
maximum of +5 at 18th level).
This ability replaces bravery.
Crippling Missile (Ex): At 3rd level, a peltast can
hinder his opponent’s combat ability with a well-placed
blow. He may attempt combat maneuvers at range with
thrown weapons; using his Dexterity modifier to
calculate his CMB for the purposes of these maneuvers.
The peltast chooses a number of combat maneuvers
equal to his Intelligence modifier from the following
list that he can use with a ranged attack made with a
thrown weapon: Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm,
Sunder, and Trip. (See Pathfinder® Roleplaying Game:
Advanced Player’s Guide™ for more information on
the Dirty Trick combat maneuver.)
At levels 11 and 15, the peltast can choose an additional
combat maneuver, and he adds the following
maneuvers to the list of maneuvers he may choose
from: Grapple, Reposition.
A target grappled by a thrown weapon can break free
by destroying the weapon (a sunder attempt that does
not provoke attacks of opportunity), or by removing it
as an Escape Artist or CMB check (against the peltast’s
CMD –4).
If the peltast’s Intelligence modifier is reduced (or
permanently increased), he loses (or gains) an
appropriate number of combat maneuvers to the list of
combat maneuvers he can attempt with a thrown
weapon. If his Intelligence modifier is permanently
increased, he gains an appropriate number of combat
maneuvers or actions; these choices are definitive. This
ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Find The Breach (Ex): At 4th level, the peltast
learns to penetrate most defenses with a well-placed
blow, including magically enhanced ones. The peltast
ignores 1 point of any type of damage reduction per two
fighter levels on any target he attacks with a thrown
weapon.
The peltast may also attempt an appropriate
Knowledge check against a target as a swift action (DC
10 + the creature’s CR); if he succeeds at this check, he
instead ignores 1 point of damage reduction per level.
In addition, the peltast may ignore an amount of
armor, natural armor or shield bonus to AC on this
target equal to his Intelligence modifier, this choice is
made at the same time than the knowledge check, once
the peltast learns the enemy’s defenses. This ability
remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious
or until the combat ends. A peltast who fails this
knowledge check cannot attempt another against this
creature until 24 hours later. This ability replaces the
bonus feat gained at 4th-level.
Create Openings (Ex): At 5th level, a number of
times per round equal to his Intelligence modifier, the
peltast may provide a +2 circumstance bonus as a free
action to the next attack roll of a single ally made
against a target that the peltast hits with a ranged
attack or combat maneuver made with a thrown
weapon. The ally benefiting from this circumstance
bonus must be designated when the thrown weapon
hits; the peltast can treat himself as his own ally if
needed. This attack must occur before the end of the
peltast’s next turn. This bonus increases by 1 at level 9
and every four levels later (13, 17), up to +5 at 17th
level; create openings is treated as the fighter’s weapon
training class feature for the purposes of magic items
or meeting the prerequisites of feats or prestige classes.
This ability replaces weapon training 1, 2, and 4.
Impaling Skirmish (Ex): At 12th level, a peltast can
use a charge to make a thrown weapon attack. If he
already has the Charging Hurler feat (Pathfinder®
Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat™), he does not
suffer any penalty to AC when using a charge to make a
thrown weapon attack; and if he possesses the Spring
Attack feat, he may attack at any point during the
charge and retreat back as part of the charge
movement.
If throwing a piercing or slashing weapon as part of a
charge, the peltast may impale the enemy with the
weapon. An impaled enemy suffers an amount of bleed
damage at the beginning of his round equal to the base
damage dice of the weapon plus the weapon’s
enhancement bonus; plus the bonus damage dice dealt
on a hit by any weapon property that can apply to
ranged weapons (like flaming, holy...), if any. An
enemy can remove an impaled weapon as a move
action, suffering the normal damage as if he began his
round impaled by the weapon.
If throwing a bludgeoning weapon as part of a charge,
on a hit the peltast deals bleed damage equal to the
base damage dice of the weapon, he may do a bull rush
or trip attempt as a free action that does not provoke
attacks of opportunity, and may make the weapon
rebound over a surface - as if using the Ricochet Shot
Deed feat. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Wow Max, that's pretty nice. I'll definitely buy that supplement once I get paid!
Another thing, what about the kyoketsu-shoge in UC for a weapon? It's still technically thrown (The blade can be used as an off-hand melee weapon or thrown like a dagger, while the rope and circlet can be whipped around and swung at opponents as a bludgeoning reach weapon.) but can be used as a backup in close quarters once they close in.
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You're welcome, don't feel obligated, in any way I hope you find something you like !
From a designer's POV, the kyoketsu-shoge is still basically an exotic weapon, even for eastern settings, so it would probably require a feat to use.
In terms of optimization, for a peltast you would probably be better off with Close-Quarters Thrower, as even the disarm/grapple features are better off for a melee weapon, and the peltast's thing is thrown weapons, that don't have the same issues when it comes to failing a CM check... if you fail a ranged trip you don't risk being tripped back, but this comes with the usual ranged combat issues and feats starving.
This is a weird weapon as it seems to imply that the dagger can be caught back once thrown because it is strung with rope, while not saying what kind of action you need to use to get the dagger back. It seems interesting as a dex-based, opening volley weapon (including for the feat of the same name), but yet again, when the dagger is thrown, is your hand treated as free to draw and throw other weapons ? Probably too much issues with the weapon to consider it playable as it is now.
Ok. Here is some stuff from 3E that would help tremendously.
Far Shot: In 3E, this doubled the range increments of thrown weapons. So a Javelin could be thrown up to 60 ft at no penalty and a max of 300 ft. As opposed to PF where it can only be thrown 30 w/o penalty and up to 150 ft. Obviously shorter ranges with other thrown weapons.
Goggles of Foefinding: From Magic Item Compendium (MIC). 2500 gp; you ignore cover bonuses (but not total cover) to AC. Because Improved Precise Shot takes a while to reach.
Gauntlets of Extended Range: From MIC, 2000 gp. Doubles the range increment of thrown weapons.
Gloves of Endless Javelins: From MIC, 7000 gp. Quite simply, these gloves produce an infinite supply of +1 javelins that last just long enough to attack with before dissipating. In this way, you are able to full attack with a magical weapon and not have to worry about magical DR, returning property, etc...
Crystal of Return: From MIC. Weapon (and armor and shield) crystals are a unique concept from MIC. Basically, you can as a move action attach one crystal or remove it to gain bonuses and customize your gear a bit. Least crystals only work on masterwork or better; lesser only works on +1 or better; greater on +3 or better. Anyway... the crystal of return. The least version for 300 gp allows you to draw the weapon it's attached to as a free action. The lesser version for 1000 gp includes the free action draw and also lets you use a move action to call the weapon to your hand if it's within 30 ft.
Bloodstorm Blade prestige class: From Tome of Battle. Bolded because this class alone, even with nothing else here allowed, would make throwing viable. While it is a 10 level class, the key abilities come at 2 and 4, after which you can feel free to exit (the higher level stuff is cool, too, though). At level 2, you gain the ability as a swift action to treat thrown attacks as if they were melee attacks for one round. That means you can throw a 2H weapon w/o a time increase, use power attack, str to modify the attack roll, etc... You still face range increment and cover penalties and so forth. Then at 4 you get the essential ability. Lightning Ricochet. It allows you to perform a full attack with the same thrown weapon, as the weapon now returns to your hand immediately after each attack. I cannot overstate how much this helps keep throwing viable at higher levels when you want an enhanced weapon.
Master Thrower prestige class: From Complete Warrior. Far from essential, it gives quickdraw as a bonus feat and a bunch of cool trick shot-like abilities. Such as tripping in addition to dealing damage, doing ricochet shots, and attacking touch AC. Fun class.
And as a bonus mention for the alchemist throwers out there... Races of Eberron has a halfling-only feat, Shaped Splash. If you hit a target with a splash weapon for the primary damage, you can choose to roll to hit again to affect a creature adjacent to the first to ALSO hit him with the primary damage instead of splash. I think it also let you selectively leave spaces safe from splash damage, but the big draw was the double hit.
That is the collective sum of halfling knowledge I am able to drum up...while very tired. *yawn*
Master thrower was sick combined with 3.5 power attack rules. It let you target touch ac and throw two for every one attack if you added no str bonus to damage. Brutal throw to power throw and you could dial up the PA to the entire BAB like a barbarian, but get 14 attacks a round. However, in PF deadly aim damage is balanced and doesn't even work with touch attacks, so the class is definitely not so worth it.
In PF I haven't seen anything beat the monk1/ninja3or4 shuriken/pressurepoints madness. Instead of monk dip you could go fighter and 2wf instead, maybe stay there a bit especially with LoreWarden or 2wf archetypes.
Maybe a barbarian or fighter with javelins, or go really weird with the 2hand throwing feat from UC and some returning scythes or falcatas or greatswords?
Screw brutal throw. Just get Bloodstorm Blade in there for the swift action to treat as melee attacks...and lightning ricochet. :)
Base Classes X / MT 5 / BB 4. Doing it in such a way as to get 4 levels in BB as soon as possible but perhaps take 1 level in MT first for quickdraw. Every round toss a 2H weapon with power attack against touch AC, free trip attempt on every hit, and critical multiplier increased by +1 (MT also gives you Imp. Crit for free with thrown weapons).
That is a solid build right there. The one time I did a BB though, I didn't use MT levels at all. Instead I just got pounce (in 3E, a barbarian can get it at level 1...please remain calm and don't freak out) and charged things and used the throwing to finish up my iteratives on nearby foes once the poor aap I charged at was properly ginsued.
I think the best of the throwing weapons is the chakram. It's got a 30' range increment, and does 1d8 damage. You can also use it as a melee weapon at -1 to hit (and wearing heavy armor or you can hurt yourself).
I have a chakram wielding Paladin which works out pretty well since Smite has a 30' range and that lets me get past DR when I really need to.