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i read through alot of these and there is some good information on this forum. if i may add some more.
first a ranger would be greatly depending on his party if he only focuses on ranged combat. i would suggest the switch hitter idea from treantmonk. i have always played rangers like this he just made a guide on how to do it.
anyways if i may suggest the following
start human always start human. feat and skill points trumps everything else to me. take the ranged combat style. at level 6 my feats would look like this
human-quick draw
level one-improved critical falchion
first combat style feat-rapid shot
level 3-many shot
level 5-point blank shot
second combat style feat-improved precise shot
level 7-clustered shot
the idea behind this is to maximize damage with as few feats as possible at distance and up close. the primary stat for this build will be strength. take a composite strength bow. with full bab and a decent dex you will still excel at range but the str bonus will be a nice damage boon.
your ranged damage is maximized because you get 4 arrows each of which gains your strength bonus all of these get added up then the creatures dr gets subtracted from it once instead of once per arrow.
your melee damage is optimized as much as possible with the one feat you put into it. improved critical falchion gives you a melee weapon you can wield 2 handed for 2d4+1.5str with a 15-20 crit range.
the quick draw feat is just so you can switch between. you will be using your bow at range and as your enemies close rank drop your bow and quick draw your falchion and continue fighting.
by level 7 you have every feat i would worry about for archery i would possibly pick up boon companion to up your large tiger (preffered pet of mine) by 9 if you take the feat you should be high enough to get him to large size making him a worthwhile grappler. i would reccomend taking both power attack and deadly aim. but i would wait until you have a few items boosting your chance to hit before risking the missed attacks.
1 point blank
1 precise shot
2b rapidshot
3 iron will
5 deadly aim
6bimproved precise shot
7many shot
9 clustered Shots
10b Shot on the Run
11 weapon focus
13 Improved Init
14b Pin Point Targeting
15 greater iron will
240,000 gp 60000
Male Human (Keleshite) Ranger 15
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +12; Senses Perception +26
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 27, touch 18, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +8 Dex)
hp 139 (15d10+45)
Fort +15, Ref +20, Will +13
Defensive Abilities Evasion
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Longsword +19/+14/+9 (1d8+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +18/+13/+8 (1d3+3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +18/+13/+8 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged +5 Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +31/+26/+21 (1d8+9/20/x3)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 12, 18 melee touch, 23 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 14/16, Dex 20/26, Con 15/17, Int 10, Wis 12/16, Cha 9
Base Atk +15; CMB +18; CMD 36
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -4/+8, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Manyshot, Pinpoint Targeting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot On The Run, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +14, Escape Artist +6, Fly +6, Handle Animal +12, Heal +16, Knowledge (Nature) +18, Perception +26, Ride +6, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +24, Survival +21, Swim +19
Languages Common, Kelish
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Camouflage (Ex), Enemies: Dragons (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Fey (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Humanoids (Human) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Humanoids (Orc) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Quarry, Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Swift Tracker (Ex), Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex), Terrains: Mountain (+2 bonus) (Ex), Terrains: Plains (+2 bonus) (Ex), Track +7, Wild Empathy +14 (Ex), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longsword, +5 Longbow, Composite (Str +3), Celestial Armor; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bracers of Archery, Greater, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Camouflage (Ex) Can use the Stealth skill in favored terrain, even without cover/concealment.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Dragons (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Dragons.
Enemies: Fey (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Fey.
Enemies: Humanoids (Human) (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Humanoids (Human).
Enemies: Humanoids (Orc) (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Humanoids (Orc).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore certain AC / concealment bonuses.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Pinpoint Targeting Standard action (may not move this round): target of your ranged attack loses armor, natural armor and shield bonuses to AC.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Quarry +2 to hit and other bonuses against your designated quarry.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Shot On The Run When attacking with a ranged weapon, you can move - attack - move.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Forest.
Terrains: Mountain (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Mountain.
Terrains: Plains (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Plains.
Track +7 +7 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +14 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
5085 Gold pieces left over.
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VS AC 30 which is average for a CR 15 creature...Full round attack
DPR with deadly aim 60.85
DPR with deadly aim against favored enemy 114.02. I can only miss if I roll a nat 1. On the last shot I still have a 75% chance to hit.
DPR with deadly aim and rapid shot 69.24
DPR with deadly aim and rapid shot against favored enemy 139.98
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DPR without deadly aim, without rapid shot 46.98
DPR without deadly aim, without rapid shot against favored enemy. 87.83
DPR with rapid shot, but not deadly aim 58.12
DPR with rapid shot, but not deadly aim against favored enemy 107.93
It seems to me that against level appropriate enemies the archer did better with deadly aim.
That is correct. The BAB is +8 for improved critical.
Can you run one for a maxxed out favored enemy rather than a +2 favored enemy Wraith? With instant enemy these things matter.
That was maxed out(+8). Even if I drop it to a +2(lowest favored enemy) deadly aim will be better than not using it since it is ahead with no buffs at all. The more buffs the farther it pulls away
DPR with deadly aim and rapid shot against favored enemy
+2 88.48
+4 109.78
+6 124.44
Adamantine Dragon, I disagree regarding deadly aim.
I play a ranger9 (guide archetype but that's not really relevant) and I have an excel sheet for the exact purpose of verifying which feats are traps and which are not. From what I get from there, deadly aim is not always beneficial but, considering an optimized ranger archer, this means that it's not a good option if your best attacks need more-or-less a 17-20 to hit (depends on level and equipment): the rest of the time the benefits varies from small to very significant.
This is what I play (I'll not be as thorough as wraithstrike but you can get the idea).
Level 9
dex +6 (belt of dex+2 included)
str +2
bab 9
feats:
1: PBS
2: precise shot
3: deadly aim
5: rapid shot
6: improved precise shot
7: manyshot
9: WF LB
relevant equipment:
comp. (+2str) longbow +2
bracers of archery lesser
belt of dex +2 (already considered)
Against a typical CR 9's AC 23 the damage is:
no rapid shot no deadly aim: 25,6 (40,8)
only rapid: 30,8 (53,5)
only deadly: 34,1 (55,8)
both rapid and deadly: 40,1 (67,6)
(parenthesis for favored enemy)
Against AC 25 (typical for CR 11 enemies, a couple of which will make for a hard fight)
no rapid no deadly aim: 22,5 (39,4)
only rapid: 26,6 (49,7)
only deadly: 29,0 (49,3)
both rapid and deadly: 33,2 (59,0)
Now, I suppose that depending on the sheet used the value can change a bit but more or less you see that at level 9 deadly aim is a huge boost for damage.
At level 11, with almost the same build (now the bow is +3) this is in brief the situation.
Against a typical ac 25 the damage is:
no rapid no deadly aim: 35,2 (f.e. 65,3)
only rapid: 40,4 (f.e. 79,9)
only deadly: 44,5 (f.e. 82,9)
both rapid and deadly: 49,9 (f.e. 107,7)
Now, deadly aim is strictly better than rapid shot unless you are applying your favored enemy bonuses: using both is significantly better than using just one.
Lastly, for a level 20 ranger (since level 15 has already been covered by wraithstrike) here are my assumptions:
bab 20
dex +12
weapon: +5 seeking holy keen composite (+5str) longbow
bracers of archery greater
Against AC 38 (36 is the typical but I'll go with the pit fiend's instead. Against balor's AC 36 deadly aim is even better) the damage is:
no rapid no deadly aim: 112,8 (191,0)
only rapid: 131,1 (225,1)
only deadly: 127,8 (240,2)
both rapid and deadly: 140,6 (281,2)
The point at which rapid shot surpasses deadly aim depends on loads of different factors, but I believe it's apparent that both feats are solid choices and that an archer worth of its name should always take both and using the combination best suited for every fight.
I believe that your opinion is mostly due to the equipment considered, since you speak of "increasing bonuses to damage": if you are considering stuff like flaming, corrosive, shock bow and the like, those are worst than a +1 enhancement bonus due to energy resistance and the fact that they don't help with DR.
All in all, rapid shot, many shot and deadly aim are imo the basis of archery damage. Precise shot and improved precise shot are at least as important, probably even more.
As for buffs: if you can't get them before the fight, they are usually worse than a full attack. If you don't have quickdraw, they can be useful for drawing (move) a bow and casting a spell (maybe gravity bow) instead of drawing and making a single attack.
Of course if you can get a few buffs from allies its good: even then, such buffs will usually include a bonus to to hit, making your first attacks even more likely to be autohit and thus making deadly aim even better.
A final note on bosses and minions.
The bosses may have ACs which make deadly aim a bad option by itself. For such fights, you can generally expect to be buffed and the monster to be debuffed, which will make the AC easily hittable again.
The minions have lower AC: for those the bonus to damage will help greatly, especially if you manage to kill them with one less attack thanks to the additional damage.
EDIT: corrected values for level 11 and commentary, due to an error in the excel formula.
Before I did the math I figured if power attack is almost always going to work then there should be no reason why deadly aim is as bad as AD and someone else was saying it was. Since offense scales faster than defense I just figured it should get better so I just decided to do the math. I gave the ranger protective items to and took feats like Iron Will to not it clear that I was not blowing all the money on offense. My worst save is a will save, and I still only need a 10 to make saves. The AC is pretty bad, but I don't expect to be close enough to get hit anyway.
wraithstrike, why are all of your favored enemies at +2? You should either have one at +8 and the rest of +2 (which is imo the best option with instant enemy) or most of them at +4, right?
They are at +8 for the original post. The other post was just showing the other numbers for glutton because I thought he wanted to see hypotheticals.
Lower AC use DA. Higher AC don't?
Depends what you mean by Lower AC/Higher AC. Also depends on if you are buffed and/or if the boss is flatfooted, etc.
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level one-improved critical falchionNot possible, I believe Improved Critical requires a BAB of +8 as a prerequisite.
And going Keen, instead, isn't going to save much on levels, since that +1 Keen Falchion is oging to run 83XX GP to purchase...
yeah it does just swap it around with point blank shot i made teh change in excel but forgot to recopy everything before pasting. and if you have the money to make it keen then by all means do. i just hate spending 8k on an item to make it keen when you are going to find some sweet flachion down the road with a zomg bonus that isnt keen.
1 point blank
1 precise shot
2b rapidshot
3 iron will
5 deadly aim
6bimproved precise shot
7many shot
9 clustered Shots
10b Shot on the Run
11 weapon focus
13 Improved Init
14b Pin Point Targeting
15 greater iron will240,000 gp 60000
** spoiler omitted **...
If your GM is allowing your archer to fight enemies you only miss on a natural 1 then by all means take deadly aim.
I prefaced all my numbers with the expectation that your archer would have a 60% chance to hit before applying deadly aim and rapid shot. That is supposed to be the "balanced" attack percentage. If you are hitting on everything but a natural 1 I'm not sure why you even bother rolling dice.
What if you fight enemies you have a 60% chance, 40% chance, and 80% chance to hit?
Then if 60% at least of your enemies are in the 80% chance hit range, then deadly aim is for you.
Again, that seems to me to be a remarkably accomodating GM.
You know, maybe my whole idea is skewed by the assumption that GMs are giving PCs targets they aren't virtually guaranteed to hit.
If that is the actual way people play, then that may account for why I find deadly aim lacking, while others think it is great.
Sure, ifthe GM is dangling juicy easy to hit targets in front of you TAKE DEADLY AIM!!!!
1 point blank
1 precise shot
2b rapidshot
3 iron will
5 deadly aim
6bimproved precise shot
7many shot
9 clustered Shots
10b Shot on the Run
11 weapon focus
13 Improved Init
14b Pin Point Targeting
15 greater iron will240,000 gp 60000
** spoiler omitted **...
If your GM is allowing your archer to fight enemies you only miss on a natural 1 then by all means take deadly aim.
I prefaced all my numbers with the expectation that your archer would have a 60% chance to hit before applying deadly aim and rapid shot. That is supposed to be the "balanced" attack percentage. If you are hitting on everything but a natural 1 I'm not sure why you even bother rolling dice.
Many GM's use stock monsters for their fights. Boss fights are normally special.
As for that nat 1. That was only when fighting the ranger's favored enemy, but even when not using it deadly aim performed better.As for the AC of enemies I pulled out the last book of an AP, and even though it assumes you are around level 15 many of the monsters are multiples of lower CR creatures, and the toughest boss monsters is only APL+1. He has an AC of 36 with its main buff on, and even without using favored enemy deadly aim still put out higher numbers than not using it.
In short if the GM is going out of his way to make power attack or deadly aim do less damage then they will be less valuable. Even if I had less specialized equipment choices which would drop my attack rolls by -5, deadly aim was still a boost without using favored enemy. I have to admit deadly aim is a much smaller boost without me taking the -5 into consideration.
APL=CR opponents are normally easy to hit. If you have a good player or group of players then even APL+2 opponents can be easy to hit.
So you wouldn't take a chance by making a 60% chance to hit into a 40%? But you would take a chance by making a 80% chance into a 60% chance?Then if 60% at least of your enemies are in the 80% chance hit range, then deadly aim is for you.
Again, that seems to me to be a remarkably accomodating GM.
In essence yes. It's not exact, but basically if your final chance to hit is 50% or better then your damage will be as good or better. If your final chance to hit is 50% or less then your damage will be equal or less. It all boils down to how much you lose every time you miss. Again, deadly aim is actually a better feat for an archer who has less damage per arrow. The more damage an individual arrow does, the more drastically it impacts your damage. And missing with your manyshot attack roll REALLY kills you.
Wraith, base AC is not the be-all, end-all of combat. At the levels we are talking about a properly prepared enemy is going to be just as likely to utilize AC buffs as the PC party, or else the GM is not fully utilizing the monster's abilities. That 36 base AC should be buffed up to more like a 45 AC for a reasonable boss fight.
At least that is how my GMs usually do it.
This is the problem with the DPR Olympics threads. You need to optimise over a range of target AC's. You could fight a horde of mooks or a few heavily armoured fighters.
Assuming 1 average AC is a poor way to 'optimise'.
I used an AC 6 above what is normal for APL, and deadly Aim still improved. That represented the heavily armored types.
As for multiple enemies that AP I looked at had several mooks(3 or more below WBL) attacking in mass, and they were being hit with a nat 5 or less even if the character had no magicical gear.
What exactly did you mean by optimize of range of target AC's? I am assuming it means shoot for CR appropriate level AC for an enemy without considering AC above your APL, but I may be wrong.
By the time party buffs and debuffs come in the damage dealers have the numbers back into the range where power attack and deadly focus are doing more damage again, but yeah I do agree that an AC boost of 7 to 10 is customary for boss fights. Dice are fickle things so if they are not having a good dice day power attack and deadly aim may work against them, and if I can get them to miss enough to stop using them then I have done my job as a GM. The math however can only account for average rolls.
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im not quite sure why we are so dead set on a dpr race. the game is about more than combat. during combat you want to do your best. but a group of 5 non optimized characters can pretty easily when a combat at there cr. so optimizing in the least makes you capable of much more. then also figure in the spells from your friendly casters and you should be much more capable of hitting. rather than focusing on "if i am 100 feet away and stand no chance of getting splatted how much can i machine gun out in a round" try to make yourself as useful in multiple combat situations.
let the dpr olympics do there thing but when it comes to fun play you just want to be useful and not have a point during combat when you are worthless. hence the switch hitter i posted earlier. it has solid dps and an option to increase dps. you can fight groups or one big monster whatever the event your character will be able to contribute quite greatly. also people should realize a monster at a specific cr has to at least stand a chance of being hit by a 3/4 bab progression character so by taking power attack or deadly aim all you are doing is setting your bab to that of a rogue. you dont need a 5 mod a +5 item and full bab to hit stuff the game is just not that hard.
Wraith, I've beenplaying this game far too long.
My understanding for years has been that the *target* AC for a balanced encounter is a 60% success rate. That number supposedly was determined to be the "sweet spot" for gaming so that players were rewarded for attacking by hitting more than they missed. A balanced encounter would have some targets above that AC and some below that AC. Boss fights were typically 10% more difficult.
I have more or less ALWAYS designed my encounters along those lines. Most optimization calculations use the 60% value to do the math.
I have always considered it to be my job as the GM to provide that level of challenge for my PCs. So if my NPCs are below or above that range, I adjust accordingly. Yes, that means if necessary my red dragons wear barding.
More and more as I participate on these boards I am realizing that I play a completely different game than most players seem to play.
I honestly could not imagine running a boss fight where the PCs are hitting the boss on a 5. I almost have to wonder why you even roll to hit. Hell, just assume you will always hit and planaccordingly.
I also can't help but comment on the game dynamics of fights designed to hit 80% of the time. Simple human nature tells me that such a fight is going to change from someone getting excited about hitting the boss into a PC complaining because they MISSED!
I guess I truly am a totally unrepentent grognard after all.
If hitting the boss on a 5 is the "new way" to play, then by all means take deadly aim. In those circumstances you would be a fool not to.
im not quite sure why we are so dead set on a dpr race. the game is about more than combat. during combat you want to do your best. but a group of 5 non optimized characters can pretty easily when a combat at there cr. so optimizing in the least makes you capable of much more. then also figure in the spells from your friendly casters and you should be much more capable of hitting. rather than focusing on "if i am 100 feet away and stand no chance of getting splatted how much can i machine gun out in a round" try to make yourself as useful in multiple combat situations.
let the dpr olympics do there thing but when it comes to fun play you just want to be useful and not have a point during combat when you are worthless. hence the switch hitter i posted earlier. it has solid dps and an option to increase dps. you can fight groups or one big monster whatever the event your character will be able to contribute quite greatly. also people should realize a monster at a specific cr has to at least stand a chance of being hit by a 3/4 bab progression character so by taking power attack or deadly aim all you are doing is setting your bab to that of a rogue. you dont need a 5 mod a +5 item and full bab to hit stuff the game is just not that hard.
This is not a DPR race. I just disagree with a fellow poster about the viability of a particular feat.
The 3/4 BAB is a good point though, and that is why full BAB characters benefit from power attack and deadly aim. If the AC's were set to challenge full BAB characters those two feats would probably see less use.
AD how do you handle melee 3/4 BAB characters in a group with full BAB characters? If the full BAB's are only hitting 60% of the time then 3/4's are most likely hitting less than 50% of the time.
No, I don't always have the same AC. I vary the encounters so that sometimes the party gets to whale away on juicy targets. Sometimes I make an encounter where the enemy is very hard to hit. I use the 60% as a guide. Obviously when I am throwing the PCs a bunch of lower AC targets to boost their confidence, something like deadly aim would improve their damage. But typically in those fights they don't need to maximize their damage because they are going to hit so easily anyway.
Wraith, on the 3/4 vs full BAB question... it is very rare that I have a party where the main melee or archers are 3/4 BAB characters. Usually th main damage dealers are full BAB and the 3/4 BAB are supporting. In the case of druids or clerics they can and usually do use buffs. It generally turns out that they have about the same impact on combat whether they buff themselves to be comparable to the full BAB, or if they buff the full BAB to hit even better. It's a matter of choice which way they want to go.
On the rare occasuions where the party combatants are all, or almost all, 3/4 BAB then I adjust encounters accordingly.
See, the thing is, designing encounters around 3/4 BAB standards just strikes me as odd. The whole point of the 3/4 BAB classes is supposed to be that they are less effective in combat but make up for that by having powerful spells. Designing encounters around 3/4 BAB standards just seems to me to be playing with training wheels. Everybody is great at combat, full BAB almost never miss and the 3/4 BAB get to cast awesome spells too.
Like I said, it appears that the game has changed more than I have if hitting on a 5 is now the expected norm.
Hitting on a 5 is definitely possible before power attack comes into play. After power attack you might need an 8, but you can still hit on less than a 10 most of the time, and the minimum roll to hit just gets lower as you level up.
I am really beginning to see why buffing the party for combat has become a lost art.
It seems to mostly be unnecessary if I am understanding the preferred mode of play.
I was just using base numbers. There is no way to account for how much a GM will boost something so online "my GM does..." is not a valid stance.
It is not a lost art:
Many GM also account for 3/4 and full BAB types both wanting to go into melee. In your group you have it easier if most of the guys trying to do damage are full BAB. That stops you from having to keep the AC low enough for the other to hit.
Keeping AC lower for medium BAB types also makes summons and animal companions better able to hit.
In many groups buffing the party is still done, even though the GM has the AC low enough so that the 3/4's have a chance also.
The rogue for example can might not hit the boss guy with a 46 AC. The inquisitor, oracles, cleric, and magus might, but they are more combat oriented, but they would still struggle if always trying to hit AC made for full BAB characters. The reason why the bestiary numbers are what they are is because the developers want more people to have fun. I am sure if the CR's assumed medium BAB's rarely ever got into melee the stock monsters would have higher AC's.
Wraith, I am completely lost. You say that GMs "account for 3/4 and full BAB types" both in combat and then say buffing isn't a "lost art."
You can't have both. If you are arranging AC to be "hittable" by 3/4 BAB (by which I assume you mean EASILY hittable in my lexicon) then buffing is not needed.
The whole point of the 3/4 BAB classes is that they have spells AND with a little buffing can contribute well in combat. When they don't NEED to buff because the AC is so low, then buffing is just more training wheels on the tricycle. Now everyone is hitting as a full BAB against ACs designed for 3/4 BABs. It's clobbering time!
I don't think we are speaking the same language. If 3/4 BAB are able to hit without buffing, what the hell's the point of the 3/4 BAB? They are SUPPOSED to be less than fully effective. THAT'S WHAT 3/4 MEANS!
Anyway. Done. Not going to get my point across because it's a style of play that appears to have disappeared except among grizzled old grognards who expect 3/4 BAB combatants to EARN their damage.
The monsters can be hit when APL=CR by medium BAB without too much trouble assuming they are putting effort into fighting. There is a world of difference between a 3/4er designed to fight, and one that is not. If you make a medium BAB who does try to excel in combat then you should not expect to hit much. I will also say that when things get to APL+2 the medium BAB types will be less effective unless buffed. However many of them built to fight will have buffs(spells, magic items, and or class features that they are built around).
I will also add that just because the buff is not needed that does not mean it will not be provided. My players have been know to buff against minions(APL-3). I think that is a waste of resources, but that is what happens at time.
When you said the buff is a lost art I took it as meaning people don't know how to do it anymore.
Full BAB on the first attack should be hitting 80% of the time or more, on average. Iterative attacks, power attack, and medium BAB foes are what AC is for at mid and higher levels. 3/4 BAB classes like rogue will be itting at 20% lower, so if the full BAB's FIRST attack isnt a near auto hit, you're making the game frustratingly difficult for the others.
Of course, the great thing about 3E and PF is AC can vary wildly. Sometimes there might be something with abnormally high AC, sometimes you fight a CR 12 dino with AC 16. But, typically, first attack for full BAB classes should be nearly autohit after the early levels.
We have a catfolk ranger 14 archer in our party, and she just got a special magic +3 composite bow (+3 Strength) that adds +1d6 sonic to each arrow she shoots, and is kind of permanent gravity bow.
She now does 6d6+12 with her first Manyshot attack (+18 when within range of my +3 Dragon Shaman aura of power)...
Could you break down the damage here for me? 6d6+12? Meaning what stats/feats are giving her this kind of damage?
I get adding +6 to that with your +3 Aura of Power for each arrow.
Thanks
The +3 sonic composite long bow (+3 Strength) with permanent gravity bow goes as follows:
2d6 for being gravity bow, +1d6 for sonic damage, +3 for enhancement bonus, +3 for Strength. So that is 3d6+6 for 1 arrow. Manyshot shoots 2 arrows with a single attack roll, for 6d6+12. 12d6+24 on a crit, since only one of those 3d6+6 arrows does triple damage on a crit.
*the catfolk ranger is married to the GM. :-p I think he designed it for her just to make it a little easier. She still has some rules issues, even after 2 or 3 years of playing. And they're both PhDs.
In essence yes. It's not exact, but basically if your final chance to hit is 50% or better then your damage will be as good or better. If your final chance to hit is 50% or less then your damage will be equal or less. It all boils down to how much you lose every time you miss. Again, deadly aim is actually a better feat for an archer who has less damage per arrow. The more damage an individual arrow does, the more drastically it impacts your damage. And missing with your manyshot attack roll REALLY kills you.So you wouldn't take a chance by making a 60% chance to hit into a 40%? But you would take a chance by making a 80% chance into a 60% chance?Then if 60% at least of your enemies are in the 80% chance hit range, then deadly aim is for you.
Again, that seems to me to be a remarkably accomodating GM.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. You need about 30-40% of probability to hit for making deadly aim a liability, and even in such rare cases (at least for the majority of APs and fights I've had in 10 years of gaming) you can simply not use it. As I said, if you insist on stacking useless stuff on your bow this figure can vary, but if you are bent on gimping your PC, why bother with what you perceive as the loss of a feat?
Look, if a ranger archer is hitting only 30% of the time, nobody else has a chance of hitting the enemy: do your GMs purposely put you against enemies that make the rest of the party even more useless than they usually are? Are rogues a lost art?
I think that the root of the problem is that you have come up with biased figures for when deadly aim is available and when it's not and refuse to look at the figures that both I and wraithstrike posted.
let the dpr olympics do there thing but when it comes to fun play you just want to be useful and not have a point during combat when you are worthless. hence the switch hitter i posted earlier. it has solid dps and an option to increase dps.
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Not everybody wants to play a switch hitter: for example I don't, I like to play a pure archer and it just happens that from APG's point blank master this is the most effective strategy. Since the topic is archery for rangers I assume that one would play an archer, not a switch hitter, and thus I give advice accordingly.
Wraith, I am completely lost. You say that GMs "account for 3/4 and full BAB types" both in combat and then say buffing isn't a "lost art."
You can't have both. If you are arranging AC to be "hittable" by 3/4 BAB (by which I assume you mean EASILY hittable in my lexicon) then buffing is not needed.
The whole point of the 3/4 BAB classes is that they have spells AND with a little buffing can contribute well in combat. When they don't NEED to buff because the AC is so low, then buffing is just more training wheels on the tricycle. Now everyone is hitting as a full BAB against ACs designed for 3/4 BABs. It's clobbering time!
I don't think we are speaking the same language. If 3/4 BAB are able to hit without buffing, what the hell's the point of the 3/4 BAB? They are SUPPOSED to be less than fully effective. THAT'S WHAT 3/4 MEANS!
Anyway. Done. Not going to get my point across because it's a style of play that appears to have disappeared except among grizzled old grognards who expect 3/4 BAB combatants to EARN their damage.
Think about your average level 10 rogue fighting with two weapon.
At level 10, an archer ranger has the following advantages. +3 (bab), +1 (PBS), +1 (bracer of archery), +1 (weapon bonus due to a single weapon and less need to spend in armor), +6 (favored enemy, since it's a boss fight), maybe +1 (weapon focus, TWF is feat heavy but many rogues will take it anyway since they have trouble hitting). Rapid shot and TWF balance each other. So, even if the rogue took weapon focus, the archer has a +12 to hit on the rogue. If the rogue is hitting on a 16 on his best attack (which means that all the other attacks need a natural 20 to hit, so it's definitely a situation in which he need to EARN his damage) the ranger is hitting on a 4. If the rogue flanks, as he probably would, against an enemy which requires a 16 from the flanking rogue, the ranger still hits on a 6 on his three best attacks.The higher the level, the higher the disparity becomes.
Also, you keep stressing the importance of buffs: well, even if your enemies have such improbable AC that the ranger need more than a 16 to hit with its best attacks (the point at which deadly aim is not useful anymore) a couple of buffs/debuffs will make deadly aim relevant again.
And we are still only discussing single boss fights, which in my experience makes for very easy targets: very few monster can survive the combined potential of a party (having all good saves, high CMD, high AC, high touch AC, high HPs etc...). A single enemy will always have a weak point, and the players will exploit that and swipe the ground with the BBEG, with the kind help of action economy. For an hard fight in my experience you are better of with a couple of high CR monsters and a few minion to help with flanks and distract the players.
Not everybody wants to play a switch hitter: for example I don't, I like to play a pure archer and it just happens that from APG's point blank master this is the most effective strategy. Since the topic is archery for rangers I assume that one would play an archer, not a switch hitter, and thus I give advice accordingly.
This is something that really needs to percolate deeper into the community's perception of what makes for a powerful ranger build. As deeply useful and valuable as TM's guide was and remains, the lack of an updated guide means that the perception remains in the community that switch-hitter remains the best way to make rangers really sing, when PBM - and the availabilty of other random archery++ feats, such as the Snap Shot line - means that's largely no longer the case. The switch-hitter isn't obsolete by any means, but pure archery has pulled alongside of it, if not surpassed it. In fact, there are so many incredible archery feats that it's almost hard for a ranger to fit them all in.
There's pros and cons, but pure archery has a lot of pros, including only needing to have one magic weapon. Plus pure archery doesn't involve dropping one of your primary weapons on the ground every combat, something that I'd be reluctant to do even with a fairly kind DM.
That really depends on how high you have to roll to hit AC normally. If the GM pushes the numbers above the stock monsters then deadly aim should probably wait. Otherwise weapon focus is nice to have, but it is a "can wait" feat.
It doesn't make sense for an archer (or any other build using the same weapon 90% of the time) to take Deadly Aim before Weapon Focus. -- It means you're -3 relative to your identical-twin PC who took the other feat.
I strongly disagree.
As I said, I think that many people have a wrong perception of when deadly aim becomes relevant and they tend to overestimate the probability to hit needed for making deadly aim a good option.As the levels go up weapon focus become less impressive (as there are a lot of other bonus, even before buffs, that make you hit very easily what other combatant struggle against) and, while a +1 to hit is not useless even later on, I see it mostly as a prerequisite for point blank master.
Ok, I've gone and made a colossal mistake I suspect. We started a new campaign a number of months ago and I thought it would be cool to make a longbow wielding elven ranger. Who doesn't like Legolas after all right? So the one feat I was building towards was manyshot because I completely misread the feat.
"When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit."
Ok, so I read this as I get two arrows on my attack round and then I still get a move action. I couldn't wait till I hit level 6! Now I just hit level 6 I realized my error. It's a full attack action! I can't move!
Its one die roll and all or nothing. Moreover, sneak or crit damage only apply once. I've got no levels of rogue but if I did, this would be a feat to avoid for sure. Losing that extra crit damage is really bad though.
If I am going to forgo my move action I think I am better off using rapid shot and taking 3 arrows instead of manyshot and taking only 2 right? The only advantage to manyshot would be if the creature we are fighting has an insanely high ac. This way I still get 3 chances at a crit and I get an extra arrow. Either way, I don't get to move.
What are u talking about this build sounds fun and amazing and that's saying something because I don't really like playing rangers.
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while i do believe everyone has abandoned ship on the original posts intention here. a few things should be taken into account.
DPR- should only be worried about in power gaming situations. most players should only worry about having fun and contributing to combat AND THE REST OF THE GAME. your dpr is in by no means a way to weigh the value of your character. for instance "my barbarian rage pounces with a falchion and averages 100,000,000 damage a round. but the rest of the game i sit with my thumb up my a$$ because every feat, skill point, stat point, and piece of gear is explicitly focused on me charging." while another could say i rage pounce for about much less damage but i can also intimidate the towns people into showing me whre something is, or i took a few levels in another class so i can fill a whole in my party like trap finder or tracker. everyone laughs as the dpr barbarian forces the dm to rapidly increase the strength and ac of the monsters you fight while everyone in the useful barbs party appreciates his versatility.
power attack, deadly aim- these feats have there uses. they have an on and off switch you can flick once per round. every cr has a varying degree of difficult monsters to hit. some also just have a miss chance and low acs to off set that. in those cases you want the hits to pack a punch so when they get through they do real damage. also several things used to balance armor class in the game besides miss chance are:
hit points, damage reduction, fast healing, regeneration, immunities, resistances, the ability to heal themselves.
so the lower the ac generally speaking the more of these above options will be listed under that monster. no if you are fighting an easy to hit creature and you are dealing 1d8+6 (+1 composite longbow with +5 str) and your enemey has dr 5/- you are worthless. at that point turning on deadly aim will make a HUGE DIFFERENCE. and the higher level you obtain the easier it is for you to ramp up your chance to hit by utilizing those guys in robes standing behind you. a simply +4 dex spell (unless of course you have an item already) at low levels is a +2 to hit that makes up for deadly aim at low levels and even up till level 8 when the penalty finally becomes a -3. the problem with a bow is your damage per shot is low not your damage per round necessariliy. so people that can soak up damage will laugh at. a well grouped feat selection (weapon specialization if you can, clustered shots, and deadly aim) will wipe that smirk right off there face when you rapid shot multi shot and deadly aim at level 12 for a -6 to attack but for a plus 40 damage.
at every interval of deadly aim 1,4,8,12,16,20 it is easy to make up the corresponding penalties. spells gain in strength much faster than your penalties acrue. and if you play the switch hitter i suggest with a grappling cat beside you the wizard will happily buff you and your kitty. because when it comes right down to it you are his last line of defense when you draw out your falchion and continue to lay waste to whatever gets to close.
this game has some things in common with real life. in modern military a powerful weapon is nice but a versatile weapon is king. be a versatile player and you will be appreciated. and rangers can be extremely versatile with there spell selection, ability to track, scout, and damage options.
Everyone will tell you to take deadly aim. But when I run the math on deadly aim, it's not as good as some people seem to think. If you use deadly aim AND rapid shot, you are at -4 to all attacks, and that's a steep penalty to overcome. It works best if you have a very high attack bonus for your level to begin with. It is definitely a good feat to take for a full archer path character, but I would take it later than most archers take it.
Be sure you are taking "precise shot" and planning for "improved precise shot" so you can negate melee and cover penalties (both -4, stacking to -8 when both apply).
Other ways to make your GM cry with an archer are to get an energy bow (flaming, shocking, thundering, etc.) and add a d6 per arrow of energy damage. Use "gravity bow" and "aspect of the falcon" when you can.
A well built archer is probably the most effective pure damage build in the game.
Just to let you know though, some people find it boring after awhile. Every round you just full attack and total up damage...
I've killed more players with Range Archers as the bad guy than with any other encounter type. Archery is just insane. I do have beef with the feat Clustered Shot, this feat seems unbalanced, it should have -2 to hit. I have ranger in the group the cluster shots everything, why not since there is no negative to using it.
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I've killed more players with Range Archers as the bad guy than with any other encounter type. Archery is just insane. I do have beef with the feat Clustered Shot, this feat seems unbalanced, it should have -2 to hit. I have ranger in the group the cluster shots everything, why not since there is no negative to using it.Everyone will tell you to take deadly aim. But when I run the math on deadly aim, it's not as good as some people seem to think. If you use deadly aim AND rapid shot, you are at -4 to all attacks, and that's a steep penalty to overcome. It works best if you have a very high attack bonus for your level to begin with. It is definitely a good feat to take for a full archer path character, but I would take it later than most archers take it.
Be sure you are taking "precise shot" and planning for "improved precise shot" so you can negate melee and cover penalties (both -4, stacking to -8 when both apply).
Other ways to make your GM cry with an archer are to get an energy bow (flaming, shocking, thundering, etc.) and add a d6 per arrow of energy damage. Use "gravity bow" and "aspect of the falcon" when you can.
A well built archer is probably the most effective pure damage build in the game.
Just to let you know though, some people find it boring after awhile. Every round you just full attack and total up damage...
i can see how this might seemed unbalanced. but what it does is force you into doing something you might not always do.
first of all when firing shots i as a player resolve each shot one at a time and if a shot lands home and the creature falls to his knees then face plants i change targets. this makes you do all your rolls then tabulate damage at the end. possibly overkilling creatures when its not necessary. but primarilyi this feat was to help archers who fall into the all to often hi end gaming problem of "how do i bypass there dr" which is calculated per hit. a longbow dealing 1d8 with a +5 enchancement on it does max 13 damage. if its strength composite and you have both a high str and dex score you can do upwards of 16 damage per hit. excellent now lets assume that not everyone carries adamantine arrows. or silver arrows or whatever the hell arrows you need. you run into the issue of dr 10/something and now you are tickling the BBEG from 100 feet away for 0-8 damage a round (8 if you roll max on bow) now assume you are a dex based ranger with a str of 12 and maybe you got a plus 4 item so now your mods a 3 some of the time. do you buy a bow that you can only really use when your magic belt is working??so each feat gives you power. the more power they give you the more they take away. the cost of some feats power is merely the feat slot it takes up i.e. weapon focus. others require you to take a penalty to attack rolls i.e. power attack. while others force you into doing a specific action i.e. (i know that gets annoying) improved trip. all of these pay off in the right situation. clustered shot makes you pick one guy out on the battle field and fire multiple shots at him. it allows you to do more damage than normal to a creature with dr.
i am generally i huge hater of homebrewing but on occasion it proves useful or fun so we use it. we have a rogue that dual wields daggers and in the instances he is not able to sneak attack (largely in party to my dm saying UNDEAD WILL FOREVER BE UNCRITTABLE which completely bones us. but with his "erratta" of the undead in paizo we offered up that clustered shots have a twin brother. so now we have a melee version of the feat called acurate strikes. allowing the rogue to just dive in and hit several times and then roll all damage dice together at the end. it has not proven to be overpowered. it just puts him close to on par with the other damage dealers who hit for more. and i feel that by creating the melee brother to clustered shots you may even feel as though clustered shots has been normalized since it no longer only offered to ranged players.