Ok, I've gone and made a colossal mistake I suspect. We started a new campaign a number of months ago and I thought it would be cool to make a longbow wielding elven ranger. Who doesn't like Legolas after all right? So the one feat I was building towards was manyshot because I completely misread the feat.
"When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit."
Ok, so I read this as I get two arrows on my attack round and then I still get a move action. I couldn't wait till I hit level 6! Now I just hit level 6 I realized my error. It's a full attack action! I can't move!
Its one die roll and all or nothing. Moreover, sneak or crit damage only apply once. I've got no levels of rogue but if I did, this would be a feat to avoid for sure. Losing that extra crit damage is really bad though.
If I am going to forgo my move action I think I am better off using rapid shot and taking 3 arrows instead of manyshot and taking only 2 right? The only advantage to manyshot would be if the creature we are fighting has an insanely high ac. This way I still get 3 chances at a crit and I get an extra arrow. Either way, I don't get to move.
Many shot allows for the first attack of the full round action to release 2 arrows. You still get your other attacks, and it increase your DPR by a lot.
If built correctly the archer should be doing the most damage on average since he does not have to close with the enemy in order to get a full round attack in. He gets to do them regardless of distance, well within reason.
I forgot to add it also stacks with Rapid Shot.
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You're not going to move in any case if you want to deal damage with a bow. How is a free additional arrow a bad thing ? You don't care if you can crit with it when it adds on your best BAB attack and hits as hard as any other arrow. Favored enemy + magic weapon + deadly aim means a lot of additional hurt.
In DPR calculations, +3 Str modifier, +5 Dex modifier, +2 bow, level 6 ranger against AC 24 deals 11.20 average damage with Rapid Shot and 13.43 average damage with Manyshot.
Also, I've yet to hear about an archer build that didn't use both Rapid Shot -and- Manyshot.
Non-ranger archers don't have to worry about this since manyshot requires rapid shot.
My ranger took rapid shot first. Both require full attack actions.
The benefit of manyshot would be if you have some way to boost your first arrow's attack bonus (something like "true strike" for example) where you essentially gain the bonus for two arrows. You already get an effective +2 to your two arrow attack compared to rapid shot due to the -2 penalty you get with rapid shot.
At BAB +6/+1 either rapid shot or manyshot will give you three arrows in a full attack. With manyshot you roll two attacks, where rapid shot requires three with each at a -2 compared to manyshot.
If I ran the math on this I might conclude that manyshot is actually numerically superior in overall damage, unless you get lucky with crits.
I don't think so concerro. The description says its a full attack action no? So you are saying that at level 6 I get two attacks anyway so with rapid shot and manyshot that would be 4 arrows? That doesn't sound right to me.
I don't think so concerro. The description says its a full attack action no? So you are saying that at level 6 I get two attacks anyway so with rapid shot and manyshot that would be 4 arrows? That doesn't sound right to me.
At +6/+1 BAB if you have manyshot AND rapid shot you do in fact get three attacks and four arrows.
My level 8 druid has those feats and I roll three d20 and 4d8 for each full attack, then add bonuses if I hit.
Let's say you have dex 18, a +1 bow and point blank shot.
Your "normal" attacks would be +12/+7 within 30'.
With rapid shot and many shot you would be +10/+10/+5 with the first shot doing two arrows worth of damage (but only one gains critical hit damage).
I don't think so concerro. The description says its a full attack action no? So you are saying that at level 6 I get two attacks anyway so with rapid shot and manyshot that would be 4 arrows? That doesn't sound right to me.
"When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit."
Why on earth would it say 'first attack' if you aren't getting the rest?
Yes, it's 4 arrows with rapid/manyshot.
I don't think so concerro. The description says its a full attack action no? So you are saying that at level 6 I get two attacks anyway so with rapid shot and manyshot that would be 4 arrows? That doesn't sound right to me.
When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
Manyshot is not a full-attack action. It is an option you get to use if you are making a full-attack action. This is important to make sure people don't try to activate it when only taking one shot.
That means you get the 2 arrows from the 1st shot as the feat says.Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Once again this is an available option to use when making a full attack action.
Neither one is an action on its own, and therefore both are legal. That is also why archer paladins make some GM's cry. :)
You can also tack on deadly aim for more damage.
Everyone will tell you to take deadly aim. But when I run the math on deadly aim, it's not as good as some people seem to think. If you use deadly aim AND rapid shot, you are at -4 to all attacks, and that's a steep penalty to overcome. It works best if you have a very high attack bonus for your level to begin with. It is definitely a good feat to take for a full archer path character, but I would take it later than most archers take it.
Be sure you are taking "precise shot" and planning for "improved precise shot" so you can negate melee and cover penalties (both -4, stacking to -8 when both apply).
Other ways to make your GM cry with an archer are to get an energy bow (flaming, shocking, thundering, etc.) and add a d6 per arrow of energy damage. Use "gravity bow" and "aspect of the falcon" when you can.
A well built archer is probably the most effective pure damage build in the game.
Just to let you know though, some people find it boring after awhile. Every round you just full attack and total up damage...
When you are fighting a favored enemy or using ranger's focus from the guide variant, deadly aim is good to use.
In other cases it might not be so good. I would still take it though. If you have a caster in the party that buffs you then that penalty to hit might be negated.
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Everyone will tell you to take deadly aim. But when I run the math on deadly aim, it's not as good as some people seem to think.
Using deadly aim almost always improves DPR, even if really slightly, like power attack. When you fight against bigger ACs, especially if the AC is ridiculously high in comparison to your level, the benefit is lower and can even eventually become a penalty. But overall, Deadly Aim is still a must have for any ranged build.
Maxx, one reason I'm not a big fan of deadly aim is precisely because it becomes less effective as the AC of the opponent increases. That's when you need your feats to be MORE effective, not LESS effective.
I take it. I just take it after precise shot and improved precise shot. It is a damage increase, but it's not really even in the same league as manyshot or rapid shot. More of an "icing on the cake" feat.
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Maxx, one reason I'm not a big fan of deadly aim is precisely because it becomes less effective as the AC of the opponent increases. That's when you need your feats to be MORE effective, not LESS effective.
So a feat should become more effective the higher you need to hit ?
Not gonna happen. You take DA to do more damage on all attacks, and you will despite the attack penalty... unless the AC is so ridiculously high that you will need a natural 17-20 to hit on your first attack.
I've run the numbers. Several times. It's not that great of a feat. It's a feat you take because it gives you a boost, but it's not that great a boost.
Now, there may be some archetype or multi-class synergies that I'm not taking into account, but for just a straight ranger, to me, Deadly Aim is simply not that great of a feat.
Your mileage may vary. I tend to accept the actual numerical analysis results.
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And I'm only taking the numerical analysis into account. DA is a feat with varying benefits but will provide it's user with the equivalent of Weapon Specialization a good 50% of the time, sometimes higher and sometimes lower, with rare, easy-to-spot times when it becomes a penalty.
There are not tons of ranged feats with bows to increase your damage and DA is one of them, so when you want to deal always more damage, especially for a class that can get a huge to-hit bonus in an instant thanks to spells/class features/archetypes and with a weapon that can basically flurry like there is no tomorrow, adding to the damage of each arrows it one of the best options you can take.
Maxx, you are arguing against a position I haven't taken.
I've said it's a damage increasing feat.
All I am trying to point out to the OP is that people constantly recommend Deadly Aim as being as important to an archer as manyshot or rapid shot when it's not nearly as good. It's an OK feat. It's a feat archers should take. But a serious archer build should take improved precise shot before taking deadly aim.
And frankly there are lots of other non-archer feats that could be argued to be superior to deadly aim. Even something like "improved initiative" which could allow you to kill an opponent a round quicker so that it does one round less damage.
I am just telling the OP, "Deadly Aim isn't all that great." That's all.
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First of all, public service announcement to the OP: TAKE IMPROVED PRECISE SHOT AT LEVEL 6!!!
You can take Manyshot with your 7th level general feat. You cannot do this with IPS.
With that out of the way...yes, as an archer you stand around and full attack. That's just how it is. If you really want, you could ask your DM for the 3.5 version of Manyshot, which was a standard action and thus a) could be used with moving and b) did not stack with full attack / rapid shot.
But that would be a gigantic disservice to yourself.
Deadly Aim: I agree, it's overrated. If you have a lot of attacks and a lot of damage going in before deadly aim, the attack penalty indeed can outweigh the damage bonus in effect. It does require a lot of damage, but I don't discount for a second that a full BAB character w/ gravity bow couldn't reach that point.
Wow. Ok so I clearly misinterpreted that feat description. Again, i read the part that said full attack action and I thought that meant it was my entire attack. Thanks all for the clarification.
As a thought, if doing damage while remainig mobile is what you want, you might consider the vital strike chain. Might also come in handy if pressed into melee.
Thought I'd just agree with many of the previous posts. Just finished running a group through Rise of the Runelords. One of the dangerous players was a Ranger/Sorcerer with an Acidic bow. She would move and cast True Strike, and follow with a full attack round of LOTS of acidic arrows, first shot being the +20 to hit for her 2 arrows for one pull. Even without the True strike, she rarely missed with all the buffing the party regularly went through.... and when damage reduction would make me ignore most of the real damage, the acid damage would still quickly add up against almost every foe. NASTY and fun character to run!
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I wanted to add that Opening Volley is a fantastic feat if you build your Ranger out as a Switch Hitter as per Treantmonk's guide... I have a Guide 6/Horizon Walker 1 and took Opening Volley as my level 7 feat and having played a few sessions with it I wish I had of taken it sooner.
Alas, too many feats, too few feat slots...
Clustered Shots helps against DR more than deadly aim and doesn't reduce your attack at all, though. It requires BAB +6, but with all the feats archery involves, you may not have a slot for deadly aim till then anyway.
I think Deadly Aim is nice at lower levels, but as the penalty increases, your average damage increases, and you start getting attacks at -5, -10 BAB, it becomes less good. Definitely better if you can retrain it later. Power Attack remains useful because several excellent feats key off of it, and because as melee it's entirely possible that you'll be mostly just making standard action / charge attacks and AoOs, all of them at full BAB.
yup, to echo what Geraint has said, an archers worst issue is damage reduction. Most melee (the better DPR ones anyways) are using big 2hers that arent terribly affected by DR, because they are hitting once or twice for massive damage. 5 off? fine. who cares. An archer on the other hand, who is instead trying to do 1d8+4 4 times a round to match up, gets 20 off. The biggest benefit to deadly aim is to negate some or all of the DR, before you can get clustered shots. And after that, its just extra damage, baby.
I'll fully be on board with classes that can't get great to-hit buffs not taking it (rogue, monk, druid, etc) but a ranger has full BAB and many many ways to increase that over top, so your attack roll should be hitting the majority of the time, and it's almost always a DPR gain.
Clustered Shots helps against DR more than deadly aim and doesn't reduce your attack at all, though. It requires BAB +6, but with all the feats archery involves, you may not have a slot for deadly aim till then anyway.
I think Deadly Aim is nice at lower levels, but as the penalty increases, your average damage increases, and you start getting attacks at -5, -10 BAB, it becomes less good. Definitely better if you can retrain it later. Power Attack remains useful because several excellent feats key off of it, and because as melee it's entirely possible that you'll be mostly just making standard action / charge attacks and AoOs, all of them at full BAB.
Actually, one of the advantages of deadly aim is to be able to take it levels before clustered shots. a ranger archer build tends to have imp precise at 6, and manyshot at 7, then probably improved crit at 9. Pushes clustered shots back pretty far.
Typical human ranger feat progression for full archery:
1 Point Blank + Precise Shot
2. Rapid Shot(ranger bonus)
3. Deadly Aim goes here!!!
5. Random stuff here. Weapon focus maybe.
6. Improved Precise (ranger bonus)
7. Manyshot
9. Improved Crit: Longbow
10. Shot on the run or far shot (ranger bonus)
11. Clustered maybe. depends
So you actually get 8 levels or so out of DR help with deadly aim in most builds. And at level 13+, you get the instant enemy spell, which should help a ton towards your attack bonus whenever you want it.
Conclusion: Deadly Aim is gud.
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All I am trying to point out to the OP is that people constantly recommend Deadly Aim as being as important to an archer as manyshot or rapid shot when it's not nearly as good. It's an OK feat. It's a feat archers should take. But a serious archer build should take improved precise shot before taking deadly aim.
And frankly there are lots of other non-archer feats that could be argued to be superior to deadly aim. Even something like "improved initiative" which could allow you to kill an opponent a round quicker so that it does one round less damage.
I am just telling the OP, "Deadly Aim isn't all that great." That's all.
IMO Weapon Focus and Quick Draw are more important than Deadly Aim for archers.
Deadly Aim is paradoxically a better feat for characters who aren't highly optimized archers. I.e., a cleric of Abadar who uses a light crossbow without any archery feats -- he has few attacks, but a pretty good attack-bonus when not perma-saddled with a Rapid Shot -2 (and when buffed, as he often tends to be as a cleric), has a larger threat-range on his weapon for crits, and has more options to make crits auto-confirm.
Mike is correct. The more damage your arrows do, the worse deadly aim performs. When your arrows get to a certain damage level, deadly aim actually reduces your damage potential. With an archer with a fairly typical damage progression (using magic bows, energy enchantments, str bow, etc.) for level appropriate targets (meaning you've got about a 60% chance of hitting) you will hit a breakeven point at about level 11, and by level 15 you will be doing less damage.
Run the numbers yourself.
Deadly aim is decent at low levels, but it should be trained away as soon as you can get manyshot, and probably never revisited.
But play how you like. If you want to optimize your ranger to do awesome damage with each arrow, then fine, pick a feat that makes those awesome arrows miss more the higher level you go.
No skin off my nose.
Deadly Aim can not be traded out if you are not a fighter. As I said before deadly aim, like rapid shot is to be used selectively. When you are fighting a favored enemy the penalty from deadly aim won't be an issue. Sometimes it won't be an issue when not fighting a favored enemy.
At level 11 you are doing an extra +6 damage per arrow. With manyshot and rapid shot that is an additional 30 points of damage per round if all the arrows hits which probably won't happen, but it is still good damage.
The only way you do less damage at level 15 is if you don't when to use it versus when not to use it. You can not take it, but when the big fights come and another archer is outperforming you don't say you were never warned.
Weapon Focus brings more damage to every fight, but it is not really a lot. It does however make deadly aim more useful since it reduces the misses that comes with it. Quick Draw is useful, but that is a feat that allows you to fire in melee without provoking so the usefulness of quick draw is inversely proportional to how good you are at staying out of trouble(melee).
We have a catfolk ranger 14 archer in our party, and she just got a special magic +3 composite bow (+3 Strength) that adds +1d6 sonic to each arrow she shoots, and is kind of permanent gravity bow.
She now does 6d6+12 with her first Manyshot attack (+18 when within range of my +3 Dragon Shaman aura of power).
So we have that going for us, which is nice.
She almost never moves in combat. She just stands there and gets full attacks off every round. She usually kills at least 1 mook a round, and can usually take down a BBEG in 2 rounds. Of course, we're usually hasted for most major battles at this level.
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But play how you like. If you want to optimize your ranger to do awesome damage with each arrow, then fine, pick a feat that makes those awesome arrows miss more the higher level you go.No skin off my nose.
Er...I was under the impression Deadly Aim was an option. You know, use it when it makes sense, not all the time?
If I charge an enemy while my Bard buddy buffs with his music, should I use Power Attack or not?
Deadly Aim is the exact same.
Wraith, the mathematical analysis I did factors that in. At level eleven, using an average damage per arrow of 15.5 (gravity bow, +1 enhancement, energy arrow, PBS, +4 str) before adding in the +6 per arrow from deadly aim, calculating all the probabilities for damage (from hitting zero times to hitting with all four arrows) the average damage boost from deadly aim per full attack is 1.5 points of damage. Not "per arrow." Total. That's what deadly aim gives you at level 11 for a fairly typical ranger who ALREADY HAS rapid shot and manyshot.
If the average damage per arrow is upped to, say, 18, then the damage is exactly the same between deadly aim and not using deadly aim. If you can squeeze more than 18 damage per arrow, then you lose damage by using the feat.
Sure, if you are going after a favored enemy, then using deadly aim gives you 6.3 total extra damage per full attack.
As you go higher than level 11, the math continues to work against you as both factors which impact the outcome are hurting your damage. Each arrow does more damage and your penalty for missing is worse.
From this I would say that level 11 is just about as high as you can go with deadly aim before you either have to spend all your time shooting favored enemies, or else you would be better off with almost any feat. In fact when your damage is high enough, you would be better off with NO feat.
But play how you like. If you want to optimize your ranger to do awesome damage with each arrow, then fine, pick a feat that makes those awesome arrows miss more the higher level you go.No skin off my nose.
Er...I was under the impression Deadly Aim was an option. You know, use it when it makes sense, not all the time?
If I charge an enemy while my Bard buddy buffs with his music, should I use Power Attack or not?
Deadly Aim is the exact same.
TOZ, situataional feats are.... situational. Any feat you choose NOT to use, for that attack, is exactly the same as not having chosen ANY feat.
I'm too tired to do more probability analysis, but I can extrapolate pretty well, and I would say that at about level 13, with damage per arrow pushing 20 average, you don't gain any advantage using deadly aim even against your favored enemy.
The feat LOOKS good. It's a decent feat up through level 8, beyond level 8 it's a barely defensible feat giving minor bonuses, and beyond level 11 it's downright disadvantageous.
That's what the math shows. Of course you don't have to believe it or care about it. It just is what it is.
Not really. Being able to turn an option off does not mean you don't have it. Not having something denies access completely.
Do you still have the 15th level build you used?
edit: If not using a feat is the same as not having it then there is no need to take quick draw since it is rarely used. It will almost always be used less than deadly aim.
Not really. Being able to turn an option off does not mean you don't have it. Not having something denies access completely.
Do you still have the 15th level build you used?
edit: If not using a feat is the same as not having it then there is no need to take quick draw since it is rarely used. It will almost always be used less than deadly aim.
quickdraw is not a combat feat intended to do damage.
Here's the most accurate way I can describe deadly aim for a serious archer ranger.
Up through level 8 it is worth having.
From level 8 to level 13 it is really only worth having when you are fighting your favored enemy, or you have some other way of getting full round +4 or better attack bonuses that stack with all your existing attack bonuses.
After level 13 it isn't even worth having against your favored enemy.
So it is "situational" for levels 8 - 12, which are the levels that it is still useful against your favored enemy.
At level 13 it is a wash even against your favored enemy.
I'm done with this. I'm not trying to tell people how to play. I'm just trying to explain why I am continually amazed to see people INSIST that "deadly aim" is a critical part of an archer build.
It's not. In fact for high level archers it is actually a trap feat.
But go ahead. Take it. I don't care.
Well, not quite done with it...
For those who will insist "well, it's best against DR!"
Clustered shot is so fantastically better against DR than deadly aim that it's amazing to even hear someone use that as a reason to take deadly aim...
You talk a lot for someone who doesn't care.
I don't care if you take the feat TOZ...
I do care that at least people get an actual accurate picture of what the feat does instead of responding to the constant "take deadly aim! take deadly aim!" drumbeat I hear offered as "advice."
I don't know why I care. Something about truth and accuracy...
But I do care about that.
And now they should know.
I suppose, if your GM allows retraining, a very solid approach is to take deadly aim and retrain it to clustered shot at level 11. That's sort of the best of both worlds, and DR becomes much more of an issue in the teens anyway....
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The feat LOOKS good. It's a decent feat up through level 8, beyond level 8 it's a barely defensible feat giving minor bonuses, and beyond level 11 it's downright disadvantageous.
That's what the math shows. Of course you don't have to believe it or care about it. It just is what it is.
Could you post your math? I run a non-Ranger archer, and I have a spreadsheet that shows me all my options, including to-hit and damage from single shot with PBS, through full attack with RS, MS, DA & PBS.
The numbers don't seem to agree with yours, so I'd like to see your conclusions.
Thanks.
Darn it AD I am not tempted to make a 15th level ranger just to do the math, but that is a lot work for someone who does not feel like doing anything.
20PB
no more than 25% WBL for any one item.
No buffs unless they are swift action.
I am going to do it later on tonight.
DPR with deadly aim
DPR with deadly aim against favored enemy
DPR with deadly aim and rapid shot
DPR with deadly aim and rapid shot against favored enemy
--------------------------------------------------------
DPR without deadly aim
DPR without deadly aim against favored enemy.
DPR with rapid shot, but not deadly aim
DPR with rapid shot, but not deadly aim against favored enemy
The numbers below the dotted line will be higher than the ones above the dotted line if you are correct.
We have a catfolk ranger 14 archer in our party, and she just got a special magic +3 composite bow (+3 Strength) that adds +1d6 sonic to each arrow she shoots, and is kind of permanent gravity bow.
She now does 6d6+12 with her first Manyshot attack (+18 when within range of my +3 Dragon Shaman aura of power)...
Could you break down the damage here for me? 6d6+12? Meaning what stats/feats are giving her this kind of damage?
I get adding +6 to that with your +3 Aura of Power for each arrow.Thanks