How angry do you think my players will get?

[dragonfire8974]

so i'm going to run high powered, high wealth campaign, but on the flip side, there are going to be more than one person who sunders/destroys/steals then destroys equipment. the first encounter will be in a united nations setting where the BBEG will be sending in one of his orc destroyer minions who is a super angry sundering barbarian 2 or 3 levels above the party (with a multiplier to Hit points if there are more than 5 of em, but it wont change if they recruit/save people to help them with the fight) with soldiers, with a necromancer backup with super amounts of undead.

the necromancer will be spending all day in the surrounding areas creating undead that end up not being under his control (because of sheer volume) and then coming in later to retrieve the barbarian after he has assassinated everyone in the compound. the players plenty of ways to stop either event from happening, but when they get into combat with the barbarian, his main form of attack is to sunder everything he sees.

would this cause problems for you if you were playing in the game? would this cause problems for your players? cause if it does, i need to stress that the increase levels of wealth is because the bad guys know that magic items are a big source of power. the barb is just going to rip things apart, not know what really is magical and what is not, but i can see this making some players angry depending on how successful i will be

the party starts at level 12, and i'm going to have the barbarian at level 15. the party will have a chance to gain some exp beforehand and if they do something really cool and unexpected, I may award them with a level

[loaba]

Bait and Switch. Consumers don't like it, why would gamers?

[Stiehl9s]

I played in a high level campaign before where all of my groups items were taken when we died and went to the Fugue Plane. We were around 16th or higher level then. While this was certainly a set back it was more interesting to adapt and aquire new items. My DM said there comes a time when high level characters forget what its like to be poor. This is a little off track but the point being that a characters items shouldnt define them and a character that depends on said items isnt much of hero to begin with in my book. Plus characters at that level should have some contingencies (sp?) in place.

[Modera]

Three things come to mind:

1. The barbarian will have to be close to people to break their stuff. What kind of fight set up are we looking at with the barbarian? Is he starting 20 feet away? Does he charge and hit someone first round? Does the party have a wizard or is sneaky?

2. My players (and I) would not have fun in a game where I spent a long time writing up magical items to have one (or more) of them destroyed in the first encounter.

Or to put it bluntly: If I asked you to spend 2-3 hours making a cake, and then threw it on the ground (giving you a chance to catch it), would you have a good time?

3. Are you going to tell the players that sundering will be a main aspect of this game? That will make them knowledgeable and less likely to be angry.

[wraithstrike]

I would not try it.
If you succeed they will be upset.
If you fail they will just have more wealth than you intended for them to have, and at high levels it is harder to control PC's.

[Azten]

If you are just going to take all the wealth away, why give it out at all?

[dragonfire8974]

so the idea is that I have them get paid back in full all the stuff that got destroyed (as they have a way to get their items recrafted in a very short time)

or

use there is an RP justification why your gear is being targeted that you will know in time

this isn't a tool to control wealth, it is a calculated attack on their characters

[ub3r_n3rd]

There's also no guarantee your NPC barbarian will end up sundering anything at all. As Steihl9s said, characters at that level should also have more than one weapon and other pieces of equipment to fall back on.

I think this would be fun, the party will see what he is doing and really try to nova him to get him to drop dead before he can destroy all their precious and not-so-hard-earned items since they are "starting at level 12" as you said. They have nothing that they've really earned on their own through their adventures and thus nothing that they can really be connected to as players. I can see them being a bit upset if you sprung this on them at this level and they had special items and heirloom items they were in love with only to lose them to a raging sundering barbarian.

[Chobemaster]

How mad they get will depend on their expectations and emotional maturity, and we don't know that.

Stuff comes and goes. That's the nature of stuff. They shouldn't get mad just because they lost their stuff. I'm sure they'd all be willing to destroy an enemy's stuff if that is what it took to win.

Now, is it a rational strategy from the Barb's POV to sunder everything? Is that his best way to survive the combat? If not, is he being compelled by the necro in some way that makes him willing to fight foolishly and possibly die? (that's easily accomplished, so I suggest you make sure the answer to this is yes, and it's discoverable by the PCs.)

If not, the PCs may be mad that you are metagaming them. (i.e. a participant in the world acting in a way inconsistent with his apparent motivations for purposes beyond his own knowledge or interest) They'd have a point, IMO. If you need to nerf their stuff for story reasons, so be it. Do it within the story.

I suspect they're going to grease your barbarian before he really hurts them much. Single foe at APL+3 needs a couple good rolls early to hang around long in many cases.

[dragonfire8974]

on a personal note, i don't mind them being higher powered than they should or having more wealth than they should. I would like it if they could track the barbarian, keep out of range and kill him without getting there stuff broke

it sounds like it would be a bad idea. kinda sad, because their enemy is another adventurer who's looking to cripple them

[dragonfire8974]

oh, and the barbarian is going into a compound to destroy lots and lots of people who are trying to unite against a threat. so most likely the party will get the drop on him. he isn't sneaky and using destroyer's blessing he's going to keep raging for a long long long time.

[ShadowcatX]

It really depends. If I was playing a caster (and I probably would be) there wouldn't be anything of mine for him to sunder (nor would he get close enough to do so). If I was playing melee, yes, I would get pissed if I had my weapons sundered and was left useless the whole rest of the game, especially if I were a fighter who had heavily invested feats into one specific weapon.

[Nephelim]

Save sundering for the "oh crap that cool item I designed is totally unbalancing" situations. Giving players lots of toys in order to smash them is almost definitely going to breed bad blood.

Especially if this Gear-smashing Barbarian is a repeated character... he will quickly be seen as little more than the DM's hand in the gameworld, taking away what they will think they have earned.

I can tell you it would piss me off.

[dragonfire8974]

Nephelim wrote:

Save sundering for the "oh crap that cool item I designed is totally unbalancing" situations. Giving players lots of toys in order to smash them is almost definitely going to breed bad blood.

Especially if this Gear-smashing Barbarian is a repeated character... he will quickly be seen as little more than the DM's hand in the gameworld, taking away what they will think they have earned.

I can tell you it would piss me off.

there would be multiple of these as this is the order the bbeg has founded for the sole purpose to smash and destroy.

I understand, that's why i'm coming to the boards before putting this into action

thanks for the input y'all

[dragonfire8974]

more background than is needed

the BBEG is an immortal who lived through the destruction of his people and has gone mad over the ten thousand years he has lived (his people may have just died out and not have been destroyed like he says). he's now seeking to destroy the world and everyone in it, breaking apart every part of society until there's nothing left but rubble, thus the sundering and destroying, but that will have to wait for the end fight i guess

[Doggan]

Sundering is fine as long as it makes sense. There's no reason a Barbarian is going to charge up to a wizard and sunder his headband of smarts. However, if there's a walking tank in the group somewhere that is much harder it hurt, it makes sense that someone's going to try to bash through that shield, or break through the armor.

[dragonfire8974]

ANOTHER QUESTION TO POST

would the grateful nations restoring their gear make it okay?

[dragonfire8974]

Doggan wrote:

Sundering is fine as long as it makes sense. There's no reason a Barbarian is going to charge up to a wizard and sunder his headband of smarts. However, if there's a walking tank in the group somewhere that is much harder it hurt, it makes sense that someone's going to try to bash through that shield, or break through the armor.

bags and other things that people carry beat sticks or wands in would also be a target, so it could get really really BS for some people

[Hitdice]

dragonfire8974 wrote:

ANOTHER QUESTION TO POST

would the grateful nations restoring their gear make it okay?

IMO, the only reason to take away and replace the ubergearz is for demonstration's sake; that is, if your players take the lesson and switch tactics next time they face said barbarian, then lesson learned, but if they don't they'll be twice as angry.

[Mabven the OP healer]

I say just give your players a little warning about the transitory nature of physical wealth, but be misleading about it. Tell them there are gods who consider certain magic items to be theirs, and sometimes powerful items disappear without explanation, or something else which prepares your players for disappointments to come while misleading them as to what to expect.

If they roll their eyes and groan and generally seem displeased even before they lose anything, maybe you have to rethink the idea with this group. If players aren't having fun, they tend to not show up.

[dragonfire8974]

there is potential for story-telling as they don't know who the barb is and why he's there, and why he's so intent on destroying their stuff, there's also a necro backup with hordes of undead outside and they can find out about the BBEG who will be, up until this point, a force helping them keep the common threat at bay.

I can always find more ways to put this in the story without pissing off players

[Turin the Mad]

"What is a sword compared to the hand that wields it? THAT is the Riddle of Steel, boy."

*dramatic pause*

"Crucify him."

[ub3r_n3rd]

I'm just surprised at how many people hate this idea. My thought is as long as you (as the DM) have a good reason (a big time rival as you said) that sundering their items is fair game. This isn't about you trying to meta-game them and make them upset. This is about thinking like your villains think and getting into the role-playing with your player characters.

You, as their DM, know them best. You know your friends better than we do and how they'd react to this happening in your campaign in the world you created. If you know them to be immature and childish, then maybe ditch the idea. If you know them to be mature and to go with the flow along with being able to role-play well, then go for it full-board. Personally, I love this as a starting out point and it's a good adventure hook. This gives the players the incentive to really get upset in-character with this necromancer and want him dead if he's trying to weaken them with any means possible. What's more memorable to a bunch of D&D players than a really vile BBEG who does the unexpected to them and keeps a step ahead of them? Players don't remember the easy fights, they remember the difficult ones where they barely survived and re-tell it years later at the table with their friends.

I think a lot of these other posters aren't really understanding what a great role-playing opportunity this is, they are going with their greed as players to horde every magical item they can get their hands on. Remember this is a role-playing game and if you have tons of magical items and wealth in your game that they can easily replace their broken things with, this just makes the current fight a bit harder and any subsequent fight harder that they aren't with their precious magical items.

[dragonfire8974]

I understand why it would make people angry. This sundering thing will not catch anyone by surprise unless they ambush the barbarian and his troops on his way into the UN compound thing

but yeah, i need to talk to my players about how they would feel about this thing because it seems like it would get a very negative reaction just generally

[loaba]

DM - Hey, Timmy! Do you wanna bake a cake?
Timmy - sure!
DM - okay, now you choose everything that's going into the cake and I'll bake it for you!
Timmy - this is awesome, I get to design my own cake! I bet it's gonna taste awesome.
DM - here ya go, Timmy, here's your cake.

The DM gives Timmy a great big slice... then he throws the rest of the cake on floor.

Timmy - wha' tha! Why'd you do that?
DM - now, now, Timmy, don't be greedy! I never said you could you have all the cake and I did give a slice before I destroyed it.
_________________________________

Here's a question for the DM; why do you hate Timmy?

[Bill Dunn]

For me, it would depend on how much of a spoiler the sundering appears to be. If the sundering barbarian takes a full attack with iteratives at a PC with a shield and fails to hit at all, I can see him taking it out on the shield and sundering it. If the barbarian is getting whaled on by a particular weapon, particularly one with a visual special effect like flaming, I can see him sundering that. Those sunder attempts would be responses to things the barbarian can easily perceive.

But what I can't see is him sundering someone's protective amulet or sundering a shield when he's already not having trouble hitting the PC through his defenses. That screams "I'm playing spoiler" to me rather than a rational course of action.

[ub3r_n3rd]

Like I said, it depends on the kind of players you have. If they are more into role-playing than power-gaming then they would like this scenario. If it's the other way around, then they'll start to whine and cry about it and how unfair it is. If this is the first time you've ever played with your group of players, then I'd definitely try to find out how they might react to certain situations ahead of time so the table doesn't break down. Perhaps give them a few different examples of what kind of adventures or challenges they might run into in your game and ask how they'd feel about it and how they'd overcome it. If you have played with them a long time, then you should already know what kind of reactions to expect from them and can plan accordingly.

I'm of the thought that if there isn't any danger at all to me or my equipment in a high fantasy game, then what's the point?

I like the danger, I like the unexpected, I like the challenge, but it seems in this thread I'm in the minority. If something bad happens and their is a TPK, I roll up a new character. If a piece of gear is lost, I find, steal, or buy a new piece of gear to replace it. It's pretty simple, this is a game of the imagination and to get upset over imaginary characters losing imaginary gear is silly to me. The fun is being at the table with friends and overcoming the challenges your DM throws your way.

[Chobemaster]

ShadowcatX wrote:

It really depends. If I was playing a caster (and I probably would be) there wouldn't be anything of mine for him to sunder (nor would he get close enough to do so). If I was playing melee, yes, I would get pissed if I had my weapons sundered and was left useless the whole rest of the game, especially if I were a fighter who had heavily invested feats into one specific weapon.

IDK, forcing that PC to deal with the downside of his choices should not be beyond the Pale. The GM didn't force him to become a one-trick pony, presumably, so if there are scenarios where his trick doesn't work, so be it.

Do you not use creatures immune to crits if you've got a crit specialist in the game?

Always throw undead at the turning/channeling specialist?

[loaba]

ShadowcatX wrote:

It really depends. If I was playing a caster (and I probably would be) there wouldn't be anything of mine for him to sunder (nor would he get close enough to do so).

Jars of Black Pudding - take that, mage-boy! lol

[dragonfire8974]

loaba wrote:

DM - Hey, Timmy! Do you wanna bake a cake?

Timmy - sure!
DM - okay, now you choose everything that's going into the cake and I'll bake it for you!
Timmy - this is awesome, I get to design my own cake! I bet it's gonna taste awesome.
DM - here ya go, Timmy, here's your cake.

The DM gives Timmy a great big slice... then he throws the rest of the cake on floor.

Timmy - wha' tha! Why'd you do that?
DM - now, now, Timmy, don't be greedy! I never said you could you have all the cake and I did give a slice before I destroyed it.
_________________________________

Here's a question for the DM; why do you hate Timmy?

because timmy is playing in my game. that's the point of pathfinder right?

oh and the barbarian would be familiar with mage magic items, again, there's an in game reason for him to be destroying these items

[loaba]

dragonfire8974 wrote:

loaba wrote:

Here's a question for the DM; why do you hate Timmy?

because timmy is playing in my game. that's the point of pathfinder right?

No, I don't think that the point of Pathfinder is for the DM to hate Timmy.

[Kolokotroni]

Putting together a gear list for a high level character takes a long time. For some characters it could be the most time consuming part of the character creation process. If I spend the several hours putting that together only to lose all that stuff inthe first encounter I wouldn't care if I was refunded, I wouldnt want to have to sort through it again. The accounting part of this game is my least favorite part by far.

[ub3r_n3rd]

loaba wrote:

dragonfire8974 wrote:

loaba wrote:

Here's a question for the DM; why do you hate Timmy?

because timmy is playing in my game. that's the point of pathfinder right?

No, I don't think that the point of Pathfinder is for the DM to hate Timmy.

I don't think it's the point of Pathfinder to always give Timmy what he wants any time he wants because he'd cry over it otherwise, Timmy shouldn't be a spoiled brat who gets everything he wants. Mature players understand this, immature players whine over lost goodies.

[ShadowcatX]

Chobemaster wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

It really depends. If I was playing a caster (and I probably would be) there wouldn't be anything of mine for him to sunder (nor would he get close enough to do so). If I was playing melee, yes, I would get pissed if I had my weapons sundered and was left useless the whole rest of the game, especially if I were a fighter who had heavily invested feats into one specific weapon.

IDK, forcing that PC to deal with the downside of his choices should not be beyond the Pale. The GM didn't force him to become a one-trick pony, presumably, so if there are scenarios where his trick doesn't work, so be it.

Do you not use creatures immune to crits if you've got a crit specialist in the game?

Always throw undead at the turning/channeling specialist?

Because denying critical hits is totally the same as sundering the fighters weapons. Right? After all, they're just asking for it, using all those class features and special feats only they get access to they should have diversified out with their 2 skill points per level and um . . . yeah. I can't even keep that sarcasm running any longer.

loaba wrote:

Jars of Black Pudding - take that, mage-boy! lol

*fly*

*haste*

*yawn*

"Next!"

[ub3r_n3rd]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Putting together a gear list for a high level character takes a long time. For some characters it could be the most time consuming part of the character creation process. If I spend the several hours putting that together only to lose all that stuff inthe first encounter I wouldn't care if I was refunded, I wouldnt want to have to sort through it again. The accounting part of this game is my least favorite part by far.

Did you not read how high wealth this game is going to be? You do this accounting one time and then just put a pencil mark through the thing that was sundered, go to town, buy a new fancy sword of the same kind, and go off adventuring again and erase the pencil mark on your paper. The only problem was having to walk to town to buy that sword again, not having to account and put together a "new list." That was taxing...

[Stiehl9s]

Im in ub3r_n3rd's camp. Ive been in this exact scenario only much worse. My party lost all of their aquired gear and wealth. Plus we were fighting undead on the Fugue plane which plenty much nerfed my necromancer. But it was fun despite the prelimenary frustration. We had to think, roleplay, come up with new stategies and become completely undependant on our gear. Seriously, if losing an item or two reduces your players to crying and belly aching then you should reconsider who you are playing with.

[loaba]

ub3r_n3rd wrote:

I don't think it's the point of Pathfinder to always give Timmy what he wants any time he wants because he'd cry over it otherwise, Timmy shouldn't be a spoiled brat who gets everything he wants. Mature players understand this, immature players whine over lost goodies.

What part of the scenario are you not getting, or are you deliberately choosing to be an obtuse troll? The DM offered one thing with the express intent of taking it away as soon as possible. That doesn't seem to be just a little disingenuous to you? This isn't about immature players, rather it's about DM running a bait and switch. What's more, he knew it before he asked the question.

[dragonfire8974]

no no, don't get me wrong, i understand, and i'm going to talk to my characters about this before i put anything like this in there

and no i don't hate timmy, just a joke

here's my games: the pcs are either the most powerful characters or in the top 10 in the world (excepting bad guys). they usually have 1.5x or 2x normal wealth with higher stats and face monsters out of the book at the appropriate CR. when i wanna challenge them, i handcraft an enemy, but mainly they're powerful and they know it and they feel it. there are still challenges out there, but they arent very often. that's my games

[loaba]

dragonfire8974 wrote:

no no, don't get me wrong, i understand, and i'm going to talk to my characters about this before i put anything like this in there

and no i don't hate timmy, just a joke

here's my games: the pcs are either the most powerful characters or in the top 10 in the world (excepting bad guys). they usually have 1.5x or 2x normal wealth with higher stats and face monsters out of the book at the appropriate CR. when i wanna challenge them, i handcraft an enemy, but mainly they're powerful and they know it and they feel it. there are still challenges out there, but they arent very often. that's my games

Fair enough. My advice would be to the sundering the sparingly and fairly. And you might even give the PC's a chance to develop some pre-encounter intel in regards to Sundering Barbie. If they have an idea regarding her tactics, then the onus is on them.

/ I hate this notion that anytime a player questions the DM, somehow they're whining.

[dragonfire8974]

loaba wrote:

Fair enough. My advice would be to the sundering the sparingly and fairly. And you might even give the PC's a chance to develop some pre-encounter intel in regards to Sundering Barbie. If they have an idea regarding her tactics, then the onus is on them.

/ I hate this notion that anytime a player questions the DM, somehow they're whining.

oh yeah. I get ya there. this dude and his soldiers are not close to being protected from divinations or patrols. there are lots of options for the PCs to foil this character before he even gets into the compound and starts running around murdering and destroying everything he sees, which will be obvious before they even encounter him. this will be more challenging for them to fight him in the compound because there are roofs and innocents around, so they need to get creative at some point if they don't wanna stand toe to toe with him in there. but if they take precautions they can be completely prepared for the enemies that will be coming

[cranewings]

I thought you were asking about the variable HP of the encounter, because GM's changing NPC abilities and stats based on who comes to the game pisses me off. Why even bother? No matter what I do or who comes, no matter if I run from a fight or foolishly stand toe to toe, the GM is going to generate the same length and difficulty. Boring.

As far as sundering their magic items, I think that players in general think that XP is spoon fed based on time played and usually everyone has the same thing, but sometimes magic items vary. Magic items are therefor the new experience points. Breaking one guy's items is like level draining him and keeping everyone else the same.

[ShadowcatX]

Let's calm down. There's no need for insults. Its just the internet.

[Hitdice]

Of course, given the Broken Condition, it might be worth it to keep the uberlootz if if they weren't replaced. A Broken +5 Longsword is in every way equivalent to a +3 Longsword. If the only other choice was a bottom of line, not even masterwork longsword, I'd take the Broken one.