Can you make +5 Bracers of Armor +8, effectively stacking an enhancement bonus on these items?
No. Bracers of Armor are not a piece of armor. They are a wondrous item that provides an Armor Bonus via the mage armor spell used in it's creation. It acts as the mage armor spell.
You could however add deflection, dodge, sacred, profane, etc. bonuses to them using the item creation rules. By RAW, you can add these bonuses to a single item, however it does use the 1.5 multiplier for additional bonuses, and the multiplier for using certain bonuses in the wrong slot. Technically you could build Bracers of Armor that have the Shield Spell usable in them x/day. (Note: the shield spell has always been avoided being in an triggered item, because it makes certain classes too good.)
since Magic Vestment grants and armor enhancement bonus, this spell also cannot stack with Bracers of Armor, but would overlap it as would any other piece of armor (take the bigest bonus only).
Is this correct?
If you are wearing, say, Bracers of Armor +1 and someone casts Magic Vestment on your suit of clothing at CL 8 (granting a +2 bonus) then your bracers would cease functioning and provide no bonus until the Magic Vestment spell wears off.
This is important, because if you had Light Fortification Bracers of Armor +1, then a CL 8 Magic Vestment, the bracers would still shut down, and you would not get the fortification.
So you cast the Magic Vestments on your small mithril shield instead.
So what happens if you cast Magic Vestments on a +1 suit of heavy fortification armor? At 8th level it would grant a +2 enhancement bonus and still maintain its heavy fortification. At 20th level it would make it +5 heavy fort armor. However you couldn't have +1 armor with +9 value of armor abilities and make it +5, as that would supercede the +10 max bonus.
Therefore, If I'm reading this correctly, since you can stack an armor enhancement bonus on anything but another armor enhancement bonus, but you cannot stack an armor enhancement on Bracers of Armor, is it reasonable to conclude that the bonus to armor granted by Bracers of Armor is essentially the equivalent to an armor enhancement bonus?
aka: Since they cannot stack they are effectively, at least mechanically speaking, treated the same (even if the description on how they work, which is IMHO more fluff than anything, describes them differently)?
...is it reasonable to conclude that the bonus to armor granted by Bracers of Armor is essentially the equivalent to an armor enhancement bonus?
aka: Since they cannot stack they are effectively, at least mechanically speaking, treated the same (even if the description on how they work, which is IMHO more fluff than anything, describes them differently)?
You've hit the nail on the head, in that it's the crunch text that's confusing: the various defenses we're coming up with are largely based on fluff (eg mage armour creating a force field effect). Mage armour gives an armour bonus: rules as is, pure crunch, an armour enhancement bonus can be stacked onto an armour bonus. Magic vestment is particularly problematic, to my mind, because it can be applied not only to pieces of armour, but to clothing. A vest of armour+2 (an item using the bracers of armour setup) does seem to me a viable target for magic vestment , pure crunch.
Basically, it'd be good if mage armour and/or magic vestment were clarified a bit. A clearer line in mage armour , to the effect that it cannot be augmented with any armour enhancement bonus, might do the trick - but personally I don't much like the fact that it gives a plain armour bonus in the first place. This invites the understanding that an enhancement bonus might be stacked atop it. As is, mage armour doesn't allow armour enchantments that give straight armour enhancement bonusses...but magic vestment isn't an armour enchantment .
Better, I think, to change to wording of magic vestment . Add 'Nonmagical item of clothing' or 'nonmagical regular outfit of clothing' to the target line and I think we're sorted.
(nb: this is a good time to be discussing this sort of thing, since a new edition probably isn't a thousand miles over the horizon)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@porpentine
I could argue, RAW that magic vestment doesn't work on a vest, as it says "An outfit of regular clothing" and there are a number of "Outfits" in the equipment section. (Just like a 'breastplate' isn't just the breast plate in the CRB, it includes the accessories.)
I personally find the 'items that buff spells' concept something that is overlooked. Things like my shield enhancer ring* from Donna's Dozens, or the bracelet of shields from RPG superstars gone by are untapped niches. A "Belt of mage armor augmentation" would be expensive though, IMO, since I'd start with the base item having a cost of 25,000 if it was akin to the shield ring.**
*
Aura faint abjuration; CL 5th
Slot ring; Price 2000 gp (base) Weight --
Often made of mithral or darkwood, the first of these items was designed by an eldritch knight. The basic ring, after being worn for 24 hours, automatically extends all shield spells cast by the wearer. In addition, the ring can be further enchanted so that when a shield spell is cast by the wearer the spell has shield enhancement bonuses as found on table 15-3 armor and shields (pg 461, PFRPG). The cost of the enhancements is treated as though the ring itself were a +1 shield. So a shield enhancer ring of spell resistance (13) would cost 10,000 GP (2000 for the ring itself, +8000 for the price difference between a +1 shield and a +3 shield)
Construction
Requirements Craft Ring, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Extend Spell, shield, plus any requirements of the shield special abilities; Cost 1000gp (base)
**
Magic vestment is particularly problematic, to my mind, because it can be applied not only to pieces of armour, but to clothing.
Again, that is simply not true. Only an outfit of regular clothing is a viable target for the purpose of the spell, not any clothing or piece of clothing. A magic item like a theoretical vest of armor certainly does not fit into that category, as it is neither an outfit, nor regular clothing. You cast magic vestment on your clothes as a whole, not on single parts.
A vest of armour+2 (an item using the bracers of armour setup) does seem to me a viable target for magic vestment , pure crunch.
The pure crunch says otherwise; see above.
Basically, it'd be good if mage armour and/or magic vestment were clarified a bit. A clearer line in mage armour , to the effect that it cannot be augmented with any armour enhancement bonus, might do the trick - but personally I don't much like the fact that it gives a plain armour bonus in the first place.
This is not necessary as there are currently no ways (that I am aware of) to actually add an enhancement bonus to a spell. Mage Armor certainly is no viable target for Magic Vestment.
A better way to get what you want without eliminating the value of armor is to employ the class defense options out of either Unearthed Arcana/3.5SRD or Ultimate Combat. In a system like this you use class defense to avoid getting hit, and armor to reduce damage when you do.
This is somewhat off-topic, but after some deliberations I used something like that for a modified E7-campaign set in Ravenloft. I simply allow adding the BAB as a dodge bonus to armor when being unarmored (not receiving any armor bonus to AC). As the BAB can only be 7 within these rules, it will never be as good as actual armor, but it allows unarmed PCs. The ones with high BAB (meaning the frontliners) usually war armor nonetheless, as it provides higher AC, allows for a lower DEX and provides special abilities. I thought about adapting the rules from Unearthed Arcana but I decided that this set-up would be much simpler and most players of that group like simple rules better.
A better way to get what you want without eliminating the value of armor is to employ the class defense options out of either Unearthed Arcana/3.5SRD or Ultimate Combat. In a system like this you use class defense to avoid getting hit, and armor to reduce damage when you do.This is somewhat off-topic, but after some deliberations I used something like that for a modified E7-campaign set in Ravenloft. I simply allow adding the BAB as a dodge bonus to armor when being unarmored (not receiving any armor bonus to AC). As the BAB can only be 7 within these rules, it will never be as good as actual armor, but it allows unarmed PCs. The ones with high BAB (meaning the frontliners) usually war armor nonetheless, as it provides higher AC, allows for a lower DEX and provides special abilities. I thought about adapting the rules from Unearthed Arcana but I decided that this set-up would be much simpler and most players of that group like simple rules better.
Adding your Reflex bonus would be even better for the unarmored, but I would limit it to half Reflex unless in Full Defense Mode. This makes unarmored Rogues with lower HP more equal to unarmored fighters. And burning a feat lets them get a better reflex save.
A better way to get what you want without eliminating the value of armor is to employ the class defense options out of either Unearthed Arcana/3.5SRD or Ultimate Combat. In a system like this you use class defense to avoid getting hit, and armor to reduce damage when you do.This is somewhat off-topic, but after some deliberations I used something like that for a modified E7-campaign set in Ravenloft. I simply allow adding the BAB as a dodge bonus to armor when being unarmored (not receiving any armor bonus to AC). As the BAB can only be 7 within these rules, it will never be as good as actual armor, but it allows unarmed PCs. The ones with high BAB (meaning the frontliners) usually war armor nonetheless, as it provides higher AC, allows for a lower DEX and provides special abilities. I thought about adapting the rules from Unearthed Arcana but I decided that this set-up would be much simpler and most players of that group like simple rules better.
And even more off-topic, why E7? You are letting Wizards get 4th level spells, but making Sorcerer's stuck with 3rd level. That is why it is usually E6 or E8, so that you don't get the disparity between top level wizard spells and top level sorcerer spells.
Master Arminas
Your problem is your insistence on using the term enhancement armor bonuses. There IS NO SUCH THING. You can't stack magic vestment on mage armour because mage armor is a spell effect, it's not a valid target for the magic vestment spell.
A vest of mage armor doesn't armour up the vest, it produces a mage armor effect which is totally separate from the vest itself. That effect is a distinct and separate armor bonus.
So what you would have would be the armor bonus form the mage armor. and the armor bonus from the plain vest enhanced with magic vestment. Whichever is greater trumps the other.
Magic Armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
Edit: HOLY CRAP! Sorry about the necro, had a bunch of tabs open and didn't notice the date on this one.
Think about it this way: There is a section of the magic item creation rules that says when pricing a magic item, if a similarly priced item does the same thing but costs more, your item is priced wrong. Period.
A ring of permanent mage armor is less than bracers of armor!? Or, It's cheaper to enhance bracers than increase their armor bonus!? That means you've done it wrong, not that you've gamed the system.
Can you make +5 Bracers of Armor +8, effectively stacking an enhancement bonus on these items?
+5 Bracers of Armor are already effectively a +5 enhancement bonus to the regular armor value of non-magic bracers (0). How are you proposing to attempt to stack additional enhancement on ? You could upgrade your existing +5 BoA into +8 BoA by the same general method that you can upgrade +N armor into +Y armor (save that you don't use Craft Magic Arms and Armor but rather Craft Wondrous Items)
Well, since the thread has been necroed already...
Can someone define "crunch" for me? How about "E7"?
Notation: +n <item> +m would mean what, exactly? Or would it be +n <item +m>? Either way, what does it mean?
It's usually one notation or the other
+2 Heavy Shield of Shieldage or Dagger of Pointyness +3
Sometimes for armor the TOTAL armor bonus is mentioned.
Example: A mundane chain shirt has an armor bonus of +4. A magic chain shirt with a +2 enhancement bonus to its base +4 is a total of +6. It might be noted as a +2 chain shirt (+6) if it's in a list of things that are boosting a creatures armor class.
The only items I know of that have both are magic composite strength bows, because those have both an weapon bonus AND a strength rating, such as the Oathbow.
Well, since the thread has been necroed already...
Can someone define "crunch" for me? How about "E7"?
Notation: +n <item> +m would mean what, exactly? Or would it be +n <item +m>? Either way, what does it mean?
Crunch is the hard rules text without any flavor text attached.
IIRC, E7 is a game variant where PCs stop getting class abilities at level 7.
Thanks, I think I got it now.
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Every single response in this entire thread is wrong in some important way/s.
...followed by a bunch of mostly wrong (or at least not universally right) statements along with a reference to a completely different game's magic item rules. -_-
Bottom line: You can't (normally) add an enhancement bonus to armor class to bracers of armor. If your GM wants to allow a custom item that does this, that's up to them, as is how much doing so costs and how such an item would interact with other effects.