Hello everyone, I did a search but could not locate anything, I am wondering if there are any official stats for the Gods of Golarion, The 4 Horsemen and/or the Heralds/Avatars/Servants as described in Gods and Magic?
I would like to incorporate some of them into my game, but knowing my players I would like stats on them just in case.
Official is preferred but if someone has done home-brew ones that should work as well.
Creative Director
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That said, entities like the Horsemen, Empyreal Lords, Demon Lords, and the like are demigods, not full gods, and as such they COULD be defeated by powerful mortals. If we were to stat them up, they'd be around CR 26 to CR 35, I suspect, or perhaps a bit higher. Since the game rules we have don't currently support CRs that high all that well... there's no stats for any demigods yet.
Doesn't mean there'll never be no stats.
But as for true deities, such as Rovagug and Lamashtu and Desna and Iomedae? Nope; no plans at this point to ever stat them up because theyr'e gods and thus mortals can't kill them by using the rules anyway.
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In 3E, the idea was typically a deity that was born a deity, (or had been one long enough to have outlived a few cultures has 20 levels in at least two other classes AND 20 Hit Dice of Outsider.
Deities that had accended tended to have more along the lines of a 20 levels ina class, 10 - 20 in another, and no Outsider Hit Dice, though they are still Outsiders, usually. That's a good start. Minimume abilitie scores should be in the high 20's to low 30's, with high ability scores as high as 60's. AC and Saves tended towards 100, give or take a 10, and they typcally got to add Cha and Wis to everything. HP is in the several 1,000's.
I'm a huge fan of the players (eventually) being able to defeat a deity, so I don't have the problems with stats other seem to. That being said, it should be much more about long term planning and a lot of cool ideas on the player's parts, not numbers. Numbers just give a general idea. But if the deities where really that powerful like other's are implying, there is absolutely no reason that they wouldn't just handle everything, and please spare me the "mysterious ways" BS.
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Default divine stats:
AC: Impossible to hit
Init bonus: Always acts as many times in a round whenever the deity wishes. Before, during, And/or after each PC. Several times each, if it so desires.
HP: Impossible to harm
Move: Instantly move to any part of any plane real or imaginary. As many times per round as it desires.
Attacks & Abilities: Always hits as many times as it desires, and gets as many actions per round as it desires. Deals as much or as litte damage per attack as it desires. Typically deities enjoy causing ironically appropriate calamities to befall mortals, rather than deigning to actually swat at them themselves. "You die of a heart attack, no save possible" is an oldie-but-goodie.
If it helps at all, Charon was statted out in the Savage Tide AP, albeit under 3.5 rules. Specifically, the stats are in Dungeon #149.
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Creative Director
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If it helps at all, Charon was statted out in the Savage Tide AP, albeit under 3.5 rules. Specifically, the stats are in Dungeon #149.
If I were forced to stat up Charon for Pathfinder... I'd probably use those stats as a starting point (since I built them in the first place) but then bump him up to about CR 34. For example. And whatever that would mean beyond just Lots More Hit Dice.
Thank you all very much, especially for the advice on where to start to stat them myself.
My characters are basically in a war against the forces of Urgathoa right now and as some epic fights at high levels id like them to fight the Heralds/Avatars/Servants. Was mostly curious at the approximate CR of something like:
"Among her blessed minions are Barasthangas (a devourer), Fjarn (a former Linnorm King, now a ghast barbarian), and Olix (a vampire
priest with unusual shadow powers)"
Now would you say these are just elite versions of a devourer, ghast barbarian ect or would these also basically be impossible fights?
Id like someone like Holy Sunlord Thalachos and the party to fight against Olix or Fjarn or something.
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But as for true deities, such as Rovagug and Lamashtu and Desna and Iomedae? Nope; no plans at this point to ever stat them up because theyr'e gods and thus mortals can't kill them by using the rules anyway.This is a perfectly valid viewpoint, and I know a lot of gamers who agree, but I don't care for it simply because it ignores the desires of those who do want stats for gods, unless they want to go through the (admittedly cumbersome) trouble of building them themselves via the 3.0 rules, the Immortal's Handbook, or something else.
By contrast, having stats for gods satisfies both camps much better, since those who want gods to be beyond stats can just say "nope, sorry, in my game we don't use those rules - gods are unbeatable by mortals."
In other words, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Seeing as you are in the "cause headaches to GMs who have to go thru the motions and explain to the players just why are they ignoring printed campaign setting material" I'd say that you really don't care. :P
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Those poor GMs where going to do that anyway. What you mean is it gives them an excuse to rant against. I think he is right, better and wiser to have the option availible that serves everyone rather than assume everyone plays the same way and leave out a lot of people.
I say Avatars and Heralds of the gods should have stats, Avatars, amongst other things, don't need to be anywhere near as powerful as the real deal.
My characters are basically in a war against the forces of Urgathoa right now and as some epic fights at high levels id like them to fight the Heralds/Avatars/Servants.
The herald of Urgathoa, Mother's Maw, is statted up on page 82 of Pathfinder Adventure Path #47—CR 15. Heralds for a number of other deities are included in other volumes.
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Maybe not a stat site but is there a posted Paizo list that has all of the gods, their domains and favored weapons?
I'm not sure there's a convenient list available, but the PFWiki has most or all of them on individual pages.
The inside of the front cover of Gods & Magic has a list of most of the non-demon lord/daemon horsemen/archdevil/empyreal lord/etc. gods. with areas of concern, alignment, favored weapon and domains.
Sadly, no favored colors or favored animals, for those who remember 1st edition, but we can't have everything!
As for gods and stats, I like the old quote from Yamara, "Euclidean dice would not avail you in any case."
My characters are basically in a war against the forces of Urgathoa right now and as some epic fights at high levels id like them to fight the Heralds/Avatars/Servants.The herald of Urgathoa, Mother's Maw, is statted up on page 82 of Pathfinder Adventure Path #47—CR 15. Heralds for a number of other deities are included in other volumes.
Oh this is perfect, that is a great start thank you. I can accept the whole gods don't have stats because they would just squash you but I can at least stick it to the gods by offing their Heralds :D
And Arazyr, yes that would be very cool.
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Actually, on second thought, I really like the idea of the various heralds and avatars having stats. While I still think the best policy is to offer stuff for everyone and let individual groups decide what to use or not, I think having the avatar's would at the least start to give a good representation of what the deity's themselves might look like if the avatar is amplified.
I know it's not 'official PRD' but would this help people who want Herald stats?
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I've never been a fan of the PCs attacking/killing the Gods, but, we are missing something awesome (At least from MY early years of AD&D).
We used to like to have the Gods battle each other.
I cant remember how many times we tried to take out Jormungandr with Thor... Or how the Orc god Baghtru (Sp?) would crush EVERYBODY once he got his hands on them. Surter Vs Ares... Arioch Vs, Azathoth.
Anyways, Gods Vs Gods was a lot of fun for 12 year old me.
-Uriel
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I know it's not 'official PRD' but would this help people who want Herald stats?
Yes it would, thank you kindly.
Also yeah even 24 year old me likes the idea of war amongst the gods :D
It might be an interesting scenario to publish the Imprisonment of Rovagug, as a module. The players get to pick from a selection of Gods to play, with ones like Sarenrae and Asmodeus being 'NPCs' leading the fight, while others like Zon-Kuthon are building the Star Towers, and maybe Aroden is forging the Key.
I would make it known that the stats published in the module are not the stats as present today. The Gods have grown and become more powerful since then, so you might get away with showing off a baseline of where the Gods WERE in power, not where they are now.
It might be an interesting scenario to publish the Imprisonment of Rovagug, as a module. The players get to pick from a selection of Gods to play, with ones like Sarenrae and Asmodeus being 'NPCs' leading the fight, while others like Zon-Kuthon are building the Star Towers, and maybe Aroden is forging the Key.
The Imprisonment of Rovagug happened before Aroden's time if I remember correctly.
Whoops, meant Abadar, I often get those two names mixed up.
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I am perfectly okay with gods not being stated up, it's pretty integral to the setting of Golarion. But you can still stat up the gods yourself by referencing 3.5 material on the subject. Yeah, it won't be official Paizo stuff, but it will still work.
If anything I just want to see a 'Mythic Levels Handbook' that takes a closer look at higher level play. That foundation needs to be in order before anyone could ever think about stats for a god.
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I like this example.
That said, entities like the Horsemen, Empyreal Lords, Demon Lords, and the like are demigods, not full gods, and as such they COULD be defeated by powerful mortals. If we were to stat them up, they'd be around CR 26 to CR 35, I suspect, or perhaps a bit higher. Since the game rules we have don't currently support CRs that high all that well... there's no stats for any demigods yet.
Doesn't mean there'll never be no stats.
But as for true deities, such as Rovagug and Lamashtu and Desna and Iomedae? Nope; no plans at this point to ever stat them up because theyr'e gods and thus mortals can't kill them by using the rules anyway.
You know, I just realized how much I liked this post. I set the bar for demigods as CR 26 to high 40s based off the entry for true Demon Lords in the Bestiary. I'm glad I was close in my reasoning.
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Creative Director
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You know, I just realized how much I liked this post. I set the bar for demigods as CR 26 to high 40s based off the entry for true Demon Lords in the Bestiary. I'm glad I was close in my reasoning.That said, entities like the Horsemen, Empyreal Lords, Demon Lords, and the like are demigods, not full gods, and as such they COULD be defeated by powerful mortals. If we were to stat them up, they'd be around CR 26 to CR 35, I suspect, or perhaps a bit higher. Since the game rules we have don't currently support CRs that high all that well... there's no stats for any demigods yet.
Doesn't mean there'll never be no stats.
But as for true deities, such as Rovagug and Lamashtu and Desna and Iomedae? Nope; no plans at this point to ever stat them up because theyr'e gods and thus mortals can't kill them by using the rules anyway.
To be fair... my high end of the CR scale on which Demon lords and the like should go should ACTUALLY have been X+5, where X = whatever level cap we end up deciding on for Mythic level rules is best.
Just like how right now, things in our current capped-at-level-20 game go up to CR 25.
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In 3E, the idea was typically a deity that was born a deity, (or had been one long enough to have outlived a few cultures has 20 levels in at least two other classes AND 20 Hit Dice of Outsider.
Deities that had accended tended to have more along the lines of a 20 levels ina class, 10 - 20 in another, and no Outsider Hit Dice, though they are still Outsiders, usually. That's a good start. Minimume abilitie scores should be in the high 20's to low 30's, with high ability scores as high as 60's. AC and Saves tended towards 100, give or take a 10, and they typcally got to add Cha and Wis to everything. HP is in the several 1,000's.
I'm a huge fan of the players (eventually) being able to defeat a deity, so I don't have the problems with stats other seem to. That being said, it should be much more about long term planning and a lot of cool ideas on the player's parts, not numbers. Numbers just give a general idea. But if the deities where really that powerful like other's are implying, there is absolutely no reason that they wouldn't just handle everything, and please spare me the "mysterious ways" BS.
When compared to the package guy in one of Microsoft subsidiary Bill gates is all powerful. That don't mean that he will do the packaging himself.
I am all powerful when compared to my cat, I can fly, move at fifty times his speed, I can kill a cat at a thousand meters (not that I would do that).
Thad don't mean I will hunt mice and bugs like my cat do or hunt them for him.
It is not "mysterious way", it is leaving the right to lesser being to do what they want or need to do and not caring to take all the duties in the word on my shoulders.
Cayden can love freedom and hate slavers, but he will not micromanage slavers hunting on a planetary scale. He set in motions operations that will stimulate the people of the world in resolving the problem.
sometime the gods take a more directed hand, but most of the time what the cleric contact are the equivalent of the gods answering machine or the low level employee.
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Cayden can love freedom and hate slavers, but he will not micromanage slavers hunting on a planetary scale. He set in motions operations that will stimulate the people of the world in resolving the problem.
sometime the gods take a more directed hand, but most of the time what the cleric contact are the equivalent of the gods answering machine or the low level employee.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
