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I tried searching for previous discussions to find an answer to my concern, but all I could find was stuff from the playtests that didn't seem to really answer my problem.
In a nut shell, my concern is that action economy is a big thing in this game. After all, that's why they toned down the Haste spell so it no longer gives an extra action. Yet, the Magus seems to break this situation by being able to cast a standard action spell as well as take a full round action attack sequence, all for the measly cost of a -2 on his attacks and possibly having to make a Cast Defensive roll.
I get that they aren't as good of a warrior as Fighters or as good of casters as Wizards, but they are vastly better warriors than Wizards, and obviously 100% better casters than Fighters.
I love the idea of a gish type class, but this ability seems to make them overpowered.
I'm not basing this on pure theory either, I recently ran a game around 10th level and the Magus dominated almost all the fights. Normally, you'd have a Wizard drop an area effect spell and then the rest would mop up those with some remaining HPs, but with the Magus, he's mopping up his own leftovers and the rest of the party seemed superfluous. I grant that particular builds and good rolls, etc may have played a part, but I keep coming back to the action economy and it just seems like the Magus gets to do more than everyone else.
Opinions for either side are welcome, but lets avoid turning this into a flame war. Also, I'd be happy to hear if anyone has tried making changes to the Magus to correct this problem.
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It's their main class feature. I certainly hope it's good.
I found the Magus isn't over powered unless you have really high stats. If you stick with 15-25 point buy or equivalent with rolling stats the Magus is fine. With higher stats the class does dominate. I find this same issue with all the MAD class. With high enough stats you can have good stats in all the areas you need.
Take the Magus, if you max out the casting stat then spell combat is much easier to use as your concentration check is higher. But doing this means you will have much lower stats over the board using a 20 pt buy. So that -2 to hit hurts a lot more. Now if you have stats that allow have stats like this (18,16,16,14,12,10) then you get to max out you casting stat, have good bonus to hit, decent hit point and good dex bonus. In this case the Magus gets a lot more powerful as they have no drawback to the increased action economy.
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I've found that just about any class can be overpowered given the circumstances.
Are the combats geared well to the Magus's strengths?
Is the Magus being forced to make those concentration checks?
Are the enemy's acs low?
Are the adventuring days short or long? A short adventuring day will play well to the Magus's strengths.
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There are other ways to bypass the standard action action economy other than spell combat that don't have a -2 to attack roll. Some are weapon enchants, some are class features, some use Quicken Spell. It's not that bad, really.
My experience is the Magus is pretty tame. It only gets really bad if you have him fight so few creatures and encounters per day that he can capitalize on his spike damage without having to manage his resources.
The Magus is an excellent burst dps class. You really have to see it this way: if your giving your Magus 5 minute work days, they are broken. Just like any fast dps classes (I'm looking at you blaster Sorcerer) they rule easy work days. If you put in more encounters or some altered monsters, you'll fix the problem. Just be careful when tweeking monster. If anything, if everyone is having fun, then I say the game is successful even if the Magus dominates.
Compared to the Summoner the Magus is pretty weak.
A Summoner's Eidolon is at least as good in melee as a Magus. On the casting side, the Magus gets almost no early entry, while the Summoner is casting most of his spells before the full casters.
Really though, the Magus decreased spell power and melee prowess are what make his extra action economy not so bad.
The difference between a 6th and 9th level spell is a lot more than 3 melee attacks (one of which is likely to only hit on a 20). Add to that that a Magus doesn't have Weapon training or Smite or Favored Enemy, etc. plus he can't two-hand a weapon while using Spell Combat, and his 2-3 attacks do less damage than 1 attack from a Fighter.
No.
Lol. Not even close to OP.
I was playing a magus level 15th and in a single round with good action economy, spending resources and two crits I managed to pull like 240 damage or so, and still save resources,
But I mean seriously at level 15th? you should be able to start rocking the table with mean combos, awesome summons, well planned spells. A good designed characters can be done by anyone, its a matter of careful planning and aim at something nice.
I mean Eidolons, Bardic Performance, Rage, Spell Combat, Judgements all are game mechanics that can be and should be used in game all can be abusive, nah I dont think so. everyone has a opportunity to make a run with their classes.
I was drinking milk when I read this, and it came out my nose I laughed so hard. All I could think was "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
Magus is a nice class sure, clearly not on the bottom in relative power, but it's FAR below top 4, maybe not even top 7 of all that's officially out now.
---> Specifically if a Wizard is being outpaced by a Magus, then said Wizard has never read a guide before (I recommend Trentmonks). <---
As a GM if your Magus is outpacing his groupmates, you should speak to more experienced Pathfinder GM's in your area, or read up on the forums here some. Definitely spend somemore time with your Pathfinder books to understand the game mechanics at play. It's not the Magus as a 'broken' class, that's for 100% sure. You're either allowing 5 min workdays, not properly applying the Magus rules and abilities, you're not balancing what you're sending against the group, or your other players are built poorly and the Magus wasn't (or they're inexperienced at PF/3/3.5 ooc and the Magus player isn't).
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I don't appreciate all those who laughed off my problem or wrote me off as essentially being an ill-read idiot. I presented this as a problem I came up with in a particular game and was looking for people to show me why I was wrong, not just hand-wave my concern away.
For the rest of you who actually addressed the situation, thank you. I think the un-optimized rest of the party and the short adventuring day may be where my problem lay.
I also like voska66's point about high point buy, I believe I gave them 18,16,14,14,12,10, which amounts to a 39 pb.
Comparisons of the Magus against Wizards never came into play as the party consisted of a Barbarian, a Ranger and an Oracle. I only brought up the Wizard as an anecdotal example.
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Unless the barbarian and ranger are heavily optimized or you start throwing them up against 10+ encounters a day, the magus will continue to massively outperform them. Is your Oracle the party healer?
Talk to your players. If the barbarian and ranger don't mind playing sidekick, there is no sense in messing with things.
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Unless the barbarian and ranger are heavily optimized or you start throwing them up against 10+ encounters a day, the magus will continue to massively outperform them. Is your Oracle the party healer?
Talk to your players. If the barbarian and ranger don't mind playing sidekick, there is no sense in messing with things.
If everyone was happy, I wouldn't be coming here looking for help. As it happens, we've disbanned that particular game anyways due to other issues. I just wanted to look into this for future games.
FWIW, I'm content with the answers I've received and consider my own interest in this thread completed.
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39pb? Wizards blasting things as a valid tactic? "I get that they aren't as good of a warrior as Fighters or as good of casters as Wizards, but they are vastly better warriors than Wizards, and obviously 100% better casters than Fighters."?
You (and your group) apparently don't go for system mastery, and then along came somebody who plays a class to its full potential. Hence the drama.
It's only overpowered if you allow the Arcane Mark exploit. Given that spellstrike RAI is intended to use spell slots, that brings it down to balanced levels.
Actually you can disallow using Arcane Mark with spellstrike but a hexcrafter magus gets the 0 level spell Brand on their spell list, which absolutely requires a touch attack and hence pretty clearly is compatible with spellstrike RAW.
Umm.. just to be clear.. Arcane Mark absolutely requires a touch attack as well. The only way you disallow it is by fiat, which would then extend to close range arcana, adding spells to your list (such as brand or touch of fatigue), spell blending, etc.
All for the fear that the magus would be able to poorly flurry like a low level monk can always do.
It boils down to people not understanding the probabilities involved,
James
Oh, absolutely Arcane Mark requires a touch attack. I simply brought up Brand because one of the big arguments against AM with spellstrike is that it isn't clearly defined as a spell you can attack with and thus isn't intended to be used with spellstrike. Since Brand is a spell hexcrafters get and very plainly is compatible with spellstrike, it pretty much negates the argument that 0 level spells are inherently incompatible with spellstrike.
I like touch of fatigue better myself. There are ways to pick it up.
How was blasting effective at tenth level compared to consistant barbarian damage output? Did you not let them purchase level appropriate equiptment? Did the barbarian forget to have a furious enchantment on his weapon? What kind of rage powers did he pick? He should be able to full attack on a charge, deal massive elemental damage, use at least one or two secondary natural attacks, or use battlefield control based on his power choices at that level.
Did the ranger fight his favored enemies? Was the ranger specialized in archery? Ranger should have mopped up if he was specialized in archery.
How did an oracle look bad at that level? Divine favor improves his attack and damage output by +3, and that's just a 1st level spell, he should be able to cast that all day.
I recently played a tenth level barbarian, he dominated the battlefield even with a blasting fire oracle, a non-inspire courage bard, and a twf rogue, just by being consistant, even though his rage powers were all thematic totem powers.
spell recall is dominating our CC campaign
being able to do d8 + str + 5d6 (shocking grasp) 8 times per day is brutal
at 4th level anyone able to cast 8 1st level spells OR 4-5 2nd level spells, (ánd have other stuff is pretty tough)
the pc in question does have rather poor AC and hps....but from what i have experienced in real play they do seem rather good
That is only Str + 13 average damage.
Replicating something (8 times a day) that any 2 handed weapon using melee character can do all day, every day, without using any resources, is hardly "brutal".
The magus gets to combine 2 non-optimal actions into one. A one handed full attack from 3/4 bab, and casting a spell from a 6 level caster. Neither is the best option, but he gets to mix them together. Both individually are suboptimal methods of doing what they want. Together they are a good option. Thats what the magus does and its one of the best ways I have seen to make a fighter mage mix.
Now if you are in a group that is already deliberately or accidentally suboptimal (primary fighters dont 2hand and there are no 9 level arcane casters), then the class will seam overpowered because he can combine what the already non-optimal characters can do. But if you compared the magus to a 2 handed fighter, his full attack is feable. And if you compare his spells to a wizard, his ability there is considerably less.
That said, the magus is a very good burst damage class. If pcs dont have to conserve resources it can be a very powerful class as is any of the point heavy classes like the inquisitor or the ninja. But if they have to consider each use of their limited use abilities, the class is much closer to even, or even on the lower end of the power structure when compared to always on classes like the fighter.
spell recall is dominating our CC campaign
being able to do d8 + str + 5d6 (shocking grasp) 8 times per day is brutal
at 4th level anyone able to cast 8 1st level spells OR 4-5 2nd level spells, (ánd have other stuff is pretty tough)
the pc in question does have rather poor AC and hps....but from what i have experienced in real play they do seem rather good
It'll eventually even out. At 5th level, assuming the magus has an 18 str and +1 weapon, 1d8 + str + 5d6 = 27 damage on average per hit. The same level fighter using a +1 greatsword and an assumed str of 22 is doing an average of 26 damage per hit, which is pretty much on par with the magus.
That is only Str + 13 average damage.
Replicating something (8 times a day) that any 2 handed weapon using melee character can do all day, every day, without using any resources, is hardly "brutal".
Actually, that is Str + 22 average damage. Better, but still not unbalancing in my opinion. Not sure where you got the 13.
Sorry, miskeyed while multitasking. You are right, and i still maintain that doing that 8x per day is very not brutal.
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It's only overpowered if you allow the Arcane Mark exploit. Given that spellstrike RAI is intended to use spell slots, that brings it down to balanced levels.
Merriam-Webster just called, and they'd like to know if in their newest edition next to the word "Wrong" they could put a copy of this post.
The Pathfinder writers/Paizo staff define RAI, not what you wish the game would be. They left it on the list. They've seen the posts. I guarentee you they've at least glanced at Walters guide since as game makers go they've been pretty receptive of their players (I always assumed they'd just hire Trentmonk someday).
They've chosen not to FAQ it out, because it is both A) RAW and [even if it wasn't before, it definitely is now] B) RAI.
If that wasn't the lid on the coffin of the issue, Brand, as has been pointed out several times on every major thread on the issue on the forums here, disproves any RAW/RAI arguements you could even hope to make.
As to the original poster, if your default response to people disagreeing with you on a public forum is to take your ball and go home (because honestly, none of us were that mean to you, we just enjoyed a chuckle at how wrong the comment was), you're going to eventually have bigger issues at your table then you and your groups lack of understanding of the core game mechanics.
Sorry, miskeyed while multitasking. You are right, and i still maintain that doing that 8x per day is very not brutal.
I think this all rotates back to the larger game discussion of the 15min workday. If it's allowed as a games norm, Magus will shine beyond what was probably intended. If not, it will balance out with the reasons you point out. It's hard for any casting based damage class to keep up with say a well built melee DPS, or one of the Archer builds that can produce steady heavy damage, if the day has to have more then two or three good fights.
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... As to the original poster, if your default response to people disagreeing with you on a public forum is to take your ball and go home (because honestly, none of us were that mean to you, we just enjoyed a chuckle at how wrong the comment was), you're going to eventually have bigger issues at your table then you and your groups lack of understanding of the core game mechanics...
This is what I would call a kind of internet symptom. Alot of what is posted in venues like this would be considered insulting if done in a face to face conversation. If in conversation, you ask someone a serious question. Their response is to laugh at you and say you don't know what your talking about. Almost anyone I know would be offended.
However, that appears to be the norm in online conversations. If you want to discuss things on the internet, it seems you have to grow a thicker skin and just ignore alot of the negative comments. I know quite a few people (no they are not all old people) who do not get involved in forums, chats, etc... because they can't deal with the level of rudeness that is considered normal.
We found that although it’s hardly broken, at our level of game (6th) the high probability of a killing at one shot crit was over-balancing. It makes it hard to balance encounters and it’s hard as players to defend against a NPC who can kill you with one shot 25% of the time, rather than needing a 1 in 20 shot. Sure a BBn with a greataxe can one shot a PC on a crit, but a magus can easily crit 20% or more of the time.
However, what’s the issue with Arcane mark?
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I'd like to point out that I did not "take my ball and go home" in a snit. I felt I had gotten a satisfactory answer to my concern and no longer considered it an issue. That's all.
The fact that I addressed those who were unnecessarily rude or dismissive in the same post seems to have confused you. I welcome contrary opinions in the forums, but insults and dismissive remarks with no backing up that opinion are useless and lead to a hostile environment.
Also since my concern was an opinion/observation of how the class feature played out in one particular game, and at no point did I try to make it statement of fact, it by definition can not be wrong.
Let me try to make it clear again, I had a concern that the class feature was an issue. I have had it pointed out that it was other factors that led to the problem and no longer have that concern. Plain and simple. I have only continued to pay attention to this thread as I was curious if any new and helpful suggestions had been brought up.
However, what’s the issue with Arcane mark?Some people feel that spell combat is too powerful if used in conjunction with arcane mark. (Essentially using arcane mark to generate an extra strike per melee at the cost of -2 and a concentration check.)
How is it different than any other cantrip?
How is it different than any other cantrip?However, what’s the issue with Arcane mark?Some people feel that spell combat is too powerful if used in conjunction with arcane mark. (Essentially using arcane mark to generate an extra strike per melee at the cost of -2 and a concentration check.)
The group of people who find arcane mark thematically wrong is probably much larger than those who find it a balance problem. It's a case of the magus taking a spell that originally has no offensive value and using it as a staple of his attacks.
Don't get me wrong; it's a mechanically balanced and reasonable part of the magus' arsenal. It's just that applying the magus' class abilities to arcane mark is like turning the care bear stare into a vorpal guillotine. If they had made a magus-specific cantrip that was combat-functionally identical to arcane mark or even brand without the flavor of being designed to just put writing somewhere, there would be less complaint about it. The flavor probably bothers more people than the mechanics, imho.
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I've seen a fair number of Magi in play and have yet to be wowed by them. Mostly the Magus players spend a lot of time rolling dice. They have to give up something, hit points, strength, spellcasting, etc.. Seems to me they miss far more often than same level martial characters and without spell strike their base damage is lower.
My big complaint about the magus is it is likely the second most mis-understood class in the game and I've seen so many different ideas about how they work it makes me cringe. Someone posted a rather good (if a bit wordy) how-to on spell strike, touch attacks, and spell combat which clears a lot of the issues up.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Someone posted a rather good (if a bit wordy) how-to on spell strike, touch attacks, and spell combat which clears a lot of the issues up.
Are you thinking of this tutorial by Grick?