What would be the best 2nd class? I was thinking Paladin or Sorcerer. Any suggestions?
What is best depends on what the goal of the character is.
A quick glance would seem to indicate that you need a CHA battery, so based on that alone it would seem like Sorcerer is a solid choice. From a RP point of view, I could see a Ninja/Sorcerer having some fun.
/per usual for me, in terms of multi-classing, I gotta ask why you haven't considered going with Half-elf. The floating Favored Class point is nothing to be sneezed at.
Are you just dipping, or doing a more even split?
Divine Hunter Paladin is decent for 1-2 level dip.
Dipping 1 in Oracle for Water Sight revelation + casting Obscuring Mist is great for getting ranged sneak attack.
The character concept is he is the shadowy protector of halflings. The Batman for the Halfling Nation.
Well everyone knows that Batman was a bard.
So bard.
The character concept is he is the shadowy protector of halflings. The Batman for the Halfling Nation.
Batman is hard because he's equal parts melee fighter and dexterous rogue. Fighter/Rogue seems to be a good union, but in practical application the two classes just don't compliment each other. Ninja and Sorcerer do compliment each other well (I think), but that doesn't scream Batman to me at all.
Batman is hard because he's equal parts melee fighter and dexterous rogue. Fighter/Rogue seems to be a good union, but in practical application the two classes just don't compliment each other. Ninja and Sorcerer do compliment each other well (I think), but that doesn't scream Batman to me at all.The character concept is he is the shadowy protector of halflings. The Batman for the Halfling Nation.
I beg to differ, loaba. The Fighter/Rogue does compliment well. All Martial weapons, full bab for any levels you take in Fighter to shore up your attack bonus a little... they are a great match. Not as great as Barbarian/Rogue, but still good.
What would be the best 2nd class? I was thinking Paladin or Sorcerer. Any suggestions?
I just multiclassed my ninja with paladin. Smite Evil is going to slaughter, plus I get the free heals and can detect evil. The CHA means I get more heals per day, and if we find a situation requiring a "tank" I can switch to my heavy armor and bamf like a boss.
An invisible boss.
With sneak attack.
EDIT: I play a gnome
I beg to differ, loaba. The Fighter/Rogue does compliment well. All Martial weapons, full bab for any levels you take in Fighter to shore up your attack bonus a little... they are a great match. Not as great as Barbarian/Rogue, but still good.Batman is hard because he's equal parts melee fighter and dexterous rogue. Fighter/Rogue seems to be a good union, but in practical application the two classes just don't compliment each other. Ninja and Sorcerer do compliment each other well (I think), but that doesn't scream Batman to me at all.The character concept is he is the shadowy protector of halflings. The Batman for the Halfling Nation.
At the risk of going on a tangent, the Rogue is much better off concentrating on Rogue levels (meaning Sneak Dice) then he is taking Fighter levels. The Fighter is much better off when he has a big STR and CON and can focus on BAB and HD.
I'm not saying that Fighter and Rogue are completely incompatible, but they are definitely not symbiotic. In my mind, the trick to successful multi-classing is finding two classes are symbiotic. Back on topic, after further review, as a Sorcerer multi-class, you have to have a clear idea of the what spells you want and you have to understand that spell level is going to suffer.
Have you seen the Halfling Opportunist prestige class? It was practically made for halfling ninjas and rogues.
Ninjas especially.
Halfling Opportunist needs a high CMB to use its key Exploitive Maneuver ability. But a Halfling Opportunist will not have a high CMB, being a small sized character with at least one 3/4 BAB class. The easiest solution is the feat Death From Above, and the Ninja levels provide the Acrobatics required to do a lot of leaping charges.
I beg to differ, loaba. The Fighter/Rogue does compliment well. All Martial weapons, full bab for any levels you take in Fighter to shore up your attack bonus a little... they are a great match. Not as great as Barbarian/Rogue, but still good.Batman is hard because he's equal parts melee fighter and dexterous rogue. Fighter/Rogue seems to be a good union, but in practical application the two classes just don't compliment each other. Ninja and Sorcerer do compliment each other well (I think), but that doesn't scream Batman to me at all.The character concept is he is the shadowy protector of halflings. The Batman for the Halfling Nation.
At the risk of going on a tangent, the Rogue is much better off concentrating on Rogue levels (meaning Sneak Dice) then he is taking Fighter levels. The Fighter is much better off when he has a big STR and CON and can focus on BAB and HD.
I'm not saying that Fighter and Rogue are completely incompatible, but they are definitely not symbiotic. In my mind, the trick to successful multi-classing is finding two classes are symbiotic. Back on topic, after further review, as a Sorcerer multi-class, you have to have a clear idea of the what spells you want and you have to understand that spell level is going to suffer.
Sorcerer multiclassing ninja is a horrible idea unless you're dipping sorcerer for a single level to get something specific. A Sorc 5/Ninja 5 is going to have a pitiable BAB, a pretty lame sneak attack, and spellcasting that's just unimpressive for a level 10 character. It's an extraordinary circumstance where Sorc N/Whatever N doesn't result in a very weak character for its level. The fact that they both use Charisma for something is barely relevant compared to the fact that you're playing a < 3/8 BAB melee character with barely-there spells. Fighter/Rogue (Ninja) is at least moving in the same direction, and while Ninjas like multiclassing somewhat less than rogues (their advanced talents are a little more important, so delaying them requires a better reason), if you want the expanded proficiencies and a feat or two, it's not a bad choice. Really, Ninja/Full BAB Class is pretty reasonable across the board; all are dramatically better options than Ninja/Low-BAB Caster unless you're grabbing something very specific and special from the Low-BAB caster.
My favorite crossclass options are either monk or fighter lore warden.
2 Monk levels monk give you imporved unarmed strike, evasion, 2 monk bonus feats (or archetype stuff), stunning fist and flurry.
Stunning fist and flurry will eventually become useless, but its not a big thing. Also monk boosts all your saves.
Fighter Lore warden gives you 2 feats and combat expertise as well as full BAB. Easy access to moonlight stalker.
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When multi-classing for optimization purposes you should first decide your role in the party and then multi-classing to empower that role. You should avoid taking on dual roles such as the ninja/sorceror. Cool in concept, poor in optimization.
Once you have your role then pick if you want to dip into another class/classes or be a straight multi. As a ninja paladin, you probably only want to dip 2 levels in either class. Go 2 ninja for the ki extra attacks or 2 paladin for the better saves. For optimization purposes a ninja is great as a 2-4 level dip or as your main class with a 2-4 level dip into other classes.
A great combination for a DPR ninja would be dual wielding wakizashis and taking a four level dip into fighter(weapon master). You lose 2d6 sneak attack for +1 attack and +3 damage all the time. DPR wise that's fairly even. The additional feats gained with fighter will also help you with the feat intensive two-weapon fighting. A possible stat combination on 20 BP would be:
STR: 12 (14 -2)
DEX: 18 (16 +2)
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 14 (12 +2)
You don't want your STR going any higher than 12 because the extra damage isn't worth it when two-weapon fighting. This ninja uses sneak attack, weapon specializations, and ki extra attacks to deal great DPR.
When multi-classing for optimization purposes you should first decide your role in the party and then multi-classing to empower that role. You should avoid taking on dual roles such as the ninja/sorceror. Cool in concept, poor in optimization.
Once you have your role then pick if you want to dip into another class/classes or be a straight multi. As a ninja paladin, you probably only want to dip 2 levels in either class. Go 2 ninja for the ki extra attacks or 2 paladin for the better saves. For optimization purposes a ninja is great as a 2-4 level dip or as your main class with a 2-4 level dip into other classes.
A great combination for a DPR ninja would be dual wielding wakizashis and taking a four level dip into fighter(weapon master). You lose 2d6 sneak attack for +1 attack and +3 damage all the time. DPR wise that's fairly even. The additional feats gained with fighter will also help you with the feat intensive two-weapon fighting. A possible stat combination on 20 BP would be:
STR: 12 (14 -2)
DEX: 18 (16 +2)
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 14 (12 +2)You don't want your STR going any higher than 12 because the extra damage isn't worth it when two-weapon fighting. This ninja uses sneak attack, weapon specializations, and ki extra attacks to deal great DPR.
Nice, really nice.
You can use monk for improved unarmed strike builds obviously and fighter lore warden for anything with combat expertise. I didn´t think about 2 weapon fighting in this way though. But why not a 5 level dip into fighter then?|
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But why not a 5 level dip into fighter then?
If you stay ninja you get a ninja trick, increase your saves faster, better skills, same hp(assuming you put favored class bonus in hp and PFS hp rules), faster to all your ninja stuff.
Taking another level as weapon master only gives you Reliable Strike usable once per day. There will be no difference in BAB.
It looks like multiclassing to another class is generally a bad idea.
What about taking Shadowdancer as a prestige class for 1 level to get Hide In Plain Sight?
Multiclassing with monk or fighter are ok for the rogue, because you get a lot back. Other classes are mostly not so good. It depends on what you want to do and where you want to go.
Shadowdancer is quite a good idea and with some tricks you can get there at level 6. Because you have dodge and mobility already then, spring attack is a sound choice. You can hide as a move action on your way back, then get a sneack attack again next round.
Is taking more than 1 level of Shadowdancer worth it with a ninja build?
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Is taking more than 1 level of Shadowdancer worth it with a ninja build?
In short I would suggest three levels of shadow dancer so you can summon a shadow. The shadow's power isn't based on your Shadowdancer level so stopping the prestige class will not hurt its power. You'll now always have a flank partner that deals STR damage to boot. Pair that with pressure points trick and you could be doing serious STR damage to your foe.
If interested in a build look
This is a Naginata wielding armored ninja that will eventually use his shadow to flank opponents to deal combined STR damage with Pressure Points and Shadow Attacks. This ninja uses Spring Attack in first round to deal a sneak attack, combat reflexes for AoO when enemy counter attacks, and then flanks with shadow next turn for sneak attack/STR damage. The build goes to level 12 for PFS play.
Human
20 point build, favored class Fighter for +1hp, traits are reactionary (+2 Initiative) and indomitable faith (+1 Will)
Str 18 (16+2 race)
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 12
Build:
Level:-------------------------Feats:
1: Ninja-----------------------Dodge, Combat Reflexes
2: Fighter(Weapon Master)--Power Attack and Armor Prof. (wear O-Yoroi or if mobility is necessary reach allows you to wear lighter armor.)
3: Ninja-----------------------Extra Ki, Ninja Trick (Pressure Points)
4: Fighter(Weapon Master)--Weapon Focus(Naginata), Ability Increase +1 STR or CON
5: Fighter(Weapon Master)--Mobility
6: Fighter(Weapon Master)--Weapon Specialization(Naginata)
7: Shadow Dancer------------Spring Attack
8: Shadow Dancer------------get cool Shadow Dancer evasion and stuff, Ability Increase (+1 STR)
9: Shadow Dancer------------Toughness(helps increase shadow hp) or Vital Strike, get your shadow
10: Ninja----------------------
11: Ninja----------------------Ninja Trick(Slow Reactions,Bleeding Attack, or Combat Trick(Vital Strike/Improved))
12: Ninja----------------------Toughness or Improved Vital Strike, Ability Increase (make everything even)
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Is taking more than 1 level of Shadowdancer worth it with a ninja build?In short I would suggest three levels of shadow dancer so you can summon a shadow. The shadow's power isn't based on your Shadowdancer level so stopping the prestige class will not hurt its power. You'll now always have a flank partner that deals STR damage to boot. Pair that with pressure points trick and you could be doing serious STR damage to your foe.
If interested in a build look ** spoiler omitted **...
A build like this should start with fighter. You have one more hit point that way and you can start off strong with Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Dodge. Don't forget to grab a sash of the war champion in later levels so that mithral full plate is on the table.
With 1 level in fighter sash of the war champion brings nothing, since you get those class featues only later.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What about a Maneuver Master Monk, taking Improved Dirty Trick as your bonus feat?
Now you can tack on a "free" dirty trick to your full-attack routine (even if you're already TWFing, and even in armor). Dirty trick can blind the target. Blind targets are easier to hit and are eligible for sneak attack.
So basically, if you take a 1-level dip into Maneuver Master, you suddenly gain the ability to make a free roll to enable sneak attack out of nowhere every time you full-attack against a sighted opponent. Add the Flurry of Stars ninja trick to really capitalize on it.
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@Hayato: Correct, and I forgot that he had gone with the weaponmaster archetype.
Best is Monk, get up to level 4 and you can ignore the need for Cha. Ki will go off Wis, bumps your will save and stacks with AC. Also Flurry of Blows is worth it, even with a 1 level dip since it gives you Full BAB, TWF and Double Slice. Also even if your Unarmed Damage does not progress, you can flurry with any "Monk" weapon. Temple Sword, I believe, allows for both Weapon Finesse and Flurry.
What about a Maneuver Master Monk, taking Improved Dirty Trick as your bonus feat?
Seconded. MM Monk is always a great dip for any martial class.
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To offer up something slightly different, I'll share a build concept I've been working on. Basically, its a supernatural half-oni/demon ninja, inspired by "Ninja Scroll". I doubt one could call it particularly optimized, but I think it should work well enough, and the flavor is great:
Half-elf ninja with a 1-2 level dip into Witch (white-haired witch archetype...hopefully they FAQ some of the fiddly bits of this archetype before I end up playing her). She'll also be getting the Eldritch Heritage line (Abyssal or Shadow both fit the concept well), using half-elf to get a leg up on that chain via adaptability. Half Elves also have low-light vision to qualify for moonlight stalker if one is so inclined.
What you get from the Witch dip is an extra primary natural attack with your hair (which can be tacked onto your full attack at -5). This attack can of course, be another sneak attack. The hair can also initiate a free grapple, but I wouldn't count on landing it unless you pump Int way higher than I'd recommend (the grapple, but not the initial attack, substitutes Int for Str).
A second witch level might get you 10 foot reach with the hair when combined with the magical lineage trait to boost CL by 2 (I'd rule it would not work, but I'm not sure about this so I'm including the option for completeness). It would also tack constrict onto that hair grapple attack, but again, I wouldn't count on landing the grapple portion required to trigger constrict, so that's not as useful.
Regardless, its a free attempt you may get lucky with on occasion, and you never gain the grappled condition yourself. Plus, I just love the imagery of hiding in the shadows and lashing out with your hair to snatch someone up, pulling them into the dark to finish them off.
You also don't lose a BAB and gain another +1 will and a couple spells for the 2nd witch level, so that's nice. Still, I'll likely end up sticking with a single level witch dip and making do with fewer spells in order to accelerate trick/SA progression by a level. Regardless, pick buff/utility spells that don't allow a save (i.e. - Obscuring Mist, Mage Armor, Mount, Ill Omen, Comprehend Languages, etc) and you only really need an 11 Int (13 if you want Moonlight Stalker since it requires Combat Expertise).
You also get Touch of Fatigue as a cantrip, which gives you a great option for landing a single sneak attack against very hard to hit enemies. Even if the fatigue portion never works (it won't), you should still be able to easily succeed on the "melee touch attack" portion, which triggers sneak attack.
I'm also toying with the idea of working in 3 levels of Shadowdancer (as detailed in a previous post) so that she can get summon shadow for a sweet strength draining flank buddy. Flavor wise, I'd roll with it as giving sentience to her own shadow which I just love from a flavor perspective. May just have to fit that in.
Edit: note that I'd also be using the Scout rogue archetype, so Shadowdancer is a great way to get back uncanny dodge, which is lost to that archetype. Evasion, Darkvision, and HiPS are also super sweet for this build, both mechanically and in concept.
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Go higher strength and work that temple sword.
If going for DPR optimization, solely focus one one stat like Mergy suggests. Weapon Finesse characters are cool in concept, bad(well less powerful) on paper.
I understand fighter would best at first level but like to get the character established first (sneaky ninja type) over optimization in a PFS game where you only have so many adventures before your time is up.
Totally off-topic
I like your straight fighter to shadow dancer. However you are giving up sneak attack damage and ki attacks which can significantly boost DPR
I like barbarian for a 1 level dip. Bump your hp, speed, fort save, and get a little strength, con and a better will save when things get un-stealthy. You can still use a few of your skills when raging, and the AC loss isn't so bad for a dexterous halfling. 4 skill points won't hurt you as bad as 2, and you pick up a few class skills and mo' betta weapons.
What would be the best 2nd class? I was thinking Paladin or Sorcerer. Any suggestions?Rogue. That's right, ninja/rogue is best. Take 2 levels in rogue to get trap finding and evasion, +1d6 sneak attack, +3 reflex saves, +1 rogue talent. But only take 2 levels.
You can't do this. Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue, not a separate class entirely. You're either a Rogue OR a Ninja. In effect, they're the same class, so you can't multiclass between them.
Would be nice though.
If taking "shadowy protector" literally, my vote is for Shadowdancer. Someone else already suggested that, though.
Someone made the mistake of suggesting to multiclass with Rogue, but you could multiclass with Bard (Archaeologist) instead. You wouldn't increase your sneak attack damage, but you do get a bunch of other useful Rogue abilities. And you can cast some limited, but useful magic.
yep, you can't multiclass with rogue, but you can multiclass with vivisectionist who gets sneak attack and other awesomeness.
It doesn't fit your role any better than the usual ninja, and it's just as good, which is pretty darn good. Ninja without multiclassing is strong, I would suggest keeping it.
For your concept: Scout/Ninja, halfling, sap master with sling, and sniping stuff.
What is always great for halflings is halfling oportunist racial prestige class. It seems as not so good in the beginning, but if you know how to use it, its really powerfull. Especially when you go through to level 5 and all your oponents are always flat-footed to your SA.
Also exploitive maneuver and excellent aid stack, so you can nearly always get a buff from the enemy.
Sneak attack progression every second level and the raised saves make it a good choice too.
Fit in is just great roleplay. The little halfling snuggling in on the demoniacs party ... hahaha.
Combat maneuver defense is quite ok as prereq.
Consider agile maneuvers with this class perhaps, making it a DEX build.
Ninja 10/halfling oportunist 5 is really good. Your jumps will be epic.
If you have spring attack jump on the enemies then getting further boni.
With rogue you can go in there earlier.
What is always great for halflings is halfling oportunist racial prestige class...
Also exploitive maneuver and excellent aid stack, so you can nearly always get a buff from the enemy.
I can't see how Exploitive Maneuver works with regularity.
A typical CR 7 monster has CMD of about 25.
The Halfling Opportunist has a low CMB, even for Dexterity-based situations in which the ability specifically says Agile Maneuvers is not needed to use Dexterity instead of Strength.
- Halfling small size reduces it by one
- Halfling Opportunist being a 3/4 BAB class reduces it by one
So my seventh-level PC, even if a full-BAB class before switching to the prestige class, only has a Dexterity-based CMB of 9 = 6 BAB + 4 DEX - 1 Size
That means I need to roll an 15 = 24 - 9 for this ability to work. About one-quarter of the time it works.
Sure, it is something to do during combat turns when you do not need your swift action for spending a ki point or anything else. But it's hardly the coolness it seems intended to be.
What am I missing?
Agile maneuvers is to be able to always use DEX.
You are right, it is kind of a low CMB, but im sure there are some ways to buff that somehow. I will research that a bit.
Anyway, its not all about exploitive maneuver.
The other abilities are really good too.
Higher saves and improved trap spotter are a non-brainer.
Fit in for a ninja is deadly, especially with the right other talents like assasinate. Also your sleight of hand and other stuff should be real good, so eventually you are able to socially solve a lot of stuff without a fight, just great for halfling roleplaying.
Then, opportunity attacker with combat reflexes and some other stuff.
Like a whip and the whip mastery chain, or another reach weapon, or an ally with the feat that gives -2 to AC but provokes an AoO.
Or greater trip.
Also an ally with the feat that lets him help you as a swift action is perfect.
Exploitive maneuvers could probably need a boost though, because all the other maneuver buffing feats probably don´t work here.
Which feat gives you sneak dice through concealment and what do you mean by sneak dice? Sneak Attack?
Which feat gives you sneak dice through concealment and what do you mean by sneak dice? Sneak Attack?
By the way fog spells are awfull for archery. Obscuring mist i.e. obscures vision beyond 5', so you can´t use archery. Only when you wear fogcutting lenses, but then you can´t wear the sniper goggles you probably meant.
@Hayato Ken
The Halfling opportunist would be a lot better for a real rogue, who gety trapfininding, trapspotter and everything is cool but the ninja gets to bonus to finding those traps.
Not saying it's a bad joice, but for a ninja it might be worse than straight ninja.
You also get Touch of Fatigue as a cantrip, ...Even if the fatigue portion never works (it won't), you should still be able to easily succeed on the "melee touch attack" portion, which triggers sneak attack.
Huh?
I'm not convinced.
@Hayato Ken
The Halfling opportunist would be a lot better for a real rogue, who gety trapfininding, trapspotter and everything is cool but the ninja gets to bonus to finding those traps.
Not saying it's a bad joice, but for a ninja it might be worse than straight ninja.
I know. You still can take it and its still a not so bad option. A trap seen by a ninja is a trap avoided. IF you put ranks in disable device, you can get a wand of Aram Zey´s focus for 4500gp. 50 or more disabled traps. It gives you the trapfinding ability for one minute of a rogue of half your character level. Not quite like the real thing, but close.