Pot, kettle called, something about you being dark?
You sure are one to speak.
That is not what I mean. The gate rules say you get to control an outsider, but for longer service you have to bargain with it.
My question is if you are not trying to get a longer form of service how long do you get to control the outsider?If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
Well there seems to be a paragraph of text missing from the PF version of gate that specifically covered that, which is one of the reasons the Paizo version doesn't read correctly. In the same subrules for the calling of creatures, the 3.x version of haste says the following:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
This would be after sacrificing the 10,000 gp in offerings, by the way. For some reason this text is absent in the PF Gate, despite the fact the text in PF gate references it.
|
That is not what I mean. The gate rules say you get to control an outsider, but for longer service you have to bargain with it.
My question is if you are not trying to get a longer form of service how long do you get to control the outsider?If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
Well there seems to be a paragraph of text missing from the PF version of gate that specifically covered that, which is one of the reasons the Paizo version doesn't read correctly. In the same subrules for the calling of creatures, the 3.x version of haste says the following:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.This would be after sacrificing the 10,000 gp in offerings, by the way. For some reason this text is absent in the PF Gate, despite the fact the text in PF gate references it.
I will say this is not in the 5th printing of the corebook so there is probably a reason why it was left out.
I did not see it in earlier editions either. They need to put it back in so the duration is not a guessing game. Time for another rules thread. If they are going to remove stuff they need to say why, and if GM fiat is the intent that could be stated also.
|
This would be after sacrificing the 10,000 gp in offerings, by the way. For some reason this text is absent in the PF Gate, despite the fact the text in PF gate references it.
The 10,000 gp aren't the offerings, they are the spells material components.
"This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures."
|
|
Before anyone says anything about a Knowledge Planes check, you only get to attempt that 1 time. There are not retries, so if you don't roll very very high, because Solar's have a lot of abilities, then you will never know. Now if you have seen one grant a Wish in game then there maybe an argument to that.
|
|
Gate
School conjuration (creation or calling); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/
wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (see text)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect see text
Duration instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level);
see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an
interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and
a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in
either direction.
Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being
through the gate.
The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in
diameter (caster’s choice) oriented in the direction you desire when
it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a
two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when
casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is
shunted instantly to the other side.
A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate
from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving
through it from the back are not.
Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions
much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely
at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings
who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their
presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need
not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the
portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on
the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.
You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than
1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or
else the interplanar connection is severed.
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call
an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a
particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause
the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature
and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and
unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate,
although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use
of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to
transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material
cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in
addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known
individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures.
In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster
level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD
does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than
your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings
cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it
pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An
uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service
from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for
that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for
appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in
“livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.
Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is
transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over
the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly
freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being
subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the
very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air,
chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes
a spell of that type.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a long side trek from when I mentioned the paladin didn't want to become BBQ and called for help. Funny how conversations progress sometimes.
Ciretose, the 10k gp is for offerings, but that is just how the material components end up being used. The sentence right before the one you quoted states: "This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings." You are right that there are still more costs if you want more from the creature. Those costs may or may not be in valuables. They could be in "livestock" as is suggested for some creatures.
Which brings me to a great short short story I read once. The main character (I don't remember his name so I'm going to call him Jack) wanted to provide for his family but didn't have a good paying job. So Jack got a book that told him how to summon the devil. One night he was drawing the symbols on the ground and he looked up to see someone sitting in his chair. The being told him to stop, there isn't any need to continue. They spoke for a bit and Jack told him that he was wanted to be able to send his kids to college and to be able to afford to take care of his family. They struck a deal and in 40 years Jack's soul would be taken.
Jack lived a modest life. He and his wife each had a used car. Their house was a simple home with a small yard. The kids were able to go to college. They never wanted for anything but they never got anything excessive either.
When the 40 years were up, Jack sat in his chair and waited. He had never told his family what had happened. He wasn't sure he believed it all himself but now that it was time, he was ready. The man came to the door and asked Jack if he was ready. As they were leaving, Jack asked, "What's it like down there?" The other man responded, "What do you mean?" Jack asked again, "What's it like in Hell?" The man just smiled and said, "What makes you think that he's the only one who collects souls?"
I've always loved that story. I can't remember who wrote it. I know it can be found in "100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories," edited by Issac Asimov. Now I need to see if I can find that book again.
This is a long side trek from when I mentioned the paladin didn't want to become BBQ and called for help. Funny how conversations progress sometimes.
Ciretose, the 10k gp is for offerings, but that is just how the material components end up being used. The sentence right before the one you quoted states: "This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings." You are right that there are still more costs if you want more from the creature. Those costs may or may not be in valuables. They could be in "livestock" as is suggested for some creatures.
Which brings me to a great short short story I read once. The main character (I don't remember his name so I'm going to call him Jack) wanted to provide for his family but didn't have a good paying job. So Jack got a book that told him how to summon the devil. One night he was drawing the symbols on the ground and he looked up to see someone sitting in his chair. The being told him to stop, there isn't any need to continue. They spoke for a bit and Jack told him that he was wanted to be able to send his kids to college and to be able to afford to take care of his family. They struck a deal and in 40 years Jack's soul would be taken.
Jack lived a modest life. He and his wife each had a used car. Their house was a simple home with a small yard. The kids were able to go to college. They never wanted for anything but they never got anything excessive either.
When the 40 years were up, Jack sat in his chair and waited. He had never told his family what had happened. He wasn't sure he believed it all himself but now that it was time, he was ready. The man came to the door and asked Jack if he was ready. As they were leaving, Jack asked, "What's it like down there?" The other man responded, "What do you mean?" Jack asked again, "What's it like in Hell?" The man just smiled and said, "What makes you think that he's the only one who collects souls?"
I've always loved that story. I can't remember who wrote it. I know it can be found...
Dude, Bob, awesome story! I now will always love that story too. ^-^
Oh, did you happen to catch my suggestion for creating a heal-bot for your party before? I wasn't sure if you would be receptive to it, but if your party is hurting for healing, without a dedicated healbot (a role a lot of people hate playing), your party's wizard could probably create a Solar simulacrum to be the resident heal-bot. With only 11 HD, it would likely avoid combat (since at that HD its SR and saves wouldn't be that good and could be 1-shot or banished easy), but could pop off the occasional heal or mass heal.
If you're up to it, it might be a decent way for your party to pull through using their own resources. Have you given this any thought, by chance?
Wish is still going to cost a Solar 25k to cast even though it's a spell like ability, correct?
Spell-like abilities don't eat material components, so no actually.
Before anyone says anything about a Knowledge Planes check, you only get to attempt that 1 time. There are not retries, so if you don't roll very very high, because Solar's have a lot of abilities, then you will never know. Now if you have seen one grant a Wish in game then there maybe an argument to that.
Should be relatively simple for a high level character. DC could start as low as 5+ (angels are probably common knowledge for paladins and clerics) but as high as 15+ CR. That puts it at 27-37. The highest check in the party is +31. Well within what I would expect from a high level character. I generally assume that there is a lot of cross talk in battle with everyone shouting out ideas when appropriate. So it could have been the wizard that told him to summon a solar. I don't have a problem with Knowledge (religion) working for identifying angels.
Even then, even if all they did was gate in a solar, if they are in a position where the solar's best option is to grant a wish, then it could do so. The wish that the solar used in this case was to wish the paladin out of the dragon's mouth and on the monolith. Not the best use of a wish, but when you are under pressure (pun intended), you just throw out ideas and see which ones work.
Wish is still going to cost a Solar 25k to cast even though it's a spell like ability, correct?
Nope.
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
|
|
Before anyone says anything about a Knowledge Planes check, you only get to attempt that 1 time. There are not retries, so if you don't roll very very high, because Solar's have a lot of abilities, then you will never know. Now if you have seen one grant a Wish in game then there maybe an argument to that.Should be relatively simple for a high level character. DC could start as low as 5+ (angels are probably common knowledge for paladins and clerics) but as high as 15+ CR. That puts it at 27-37. The highest check in the party is +31. Well within what I would expect from a high level character. I generally assume that there is a lot of cross talk in battle with everyone shouting out ideas when appropriate. So it could have been the wizard that told him to summon a solar. I don't have a problem with Knowledge (religion) working for identifying angels.
Even then, even if all they did was gate in a solar, if they are in a position where the solar's best option is to grant a wish, then it could do so. The wish that the solar used in this case was to wish the paladin out of the dragon's mouth and on the monolith. Not the best use of a wish, but when you are under pressure (pun intended), you just throw out ideas and see which ones work.
So if there are no verbal or somatic or material cost then you as a pc have no idea what he just did to save you from the dracolich.
Dude, Bob, awesome story! I now will always love that story too. ^-^
You can find some copies here. I highly recommend it and the companion anthologies as soon as I can find them. I'm going to track down their ISBNs and see what I can find. I want them all again.
Oh, did you happen to catch my suggestion for creating a heal-bot for your party before? I wasn't sure if you would be receptive to it, but if your party is hurting for healing, without a dedicated healbot (a role a lot of people hate playing), your party's wizard could probably create a Solar simulacrum to be the resident heal-bot. With only 11 HD, it would likely avoid combat (since at that HD its SR and saves wouldn't be that good and could be 1-shot or banished easy), but could pop off the occasional heal or mass heal.
I saw it and it's not a bad idea. I just don't want to have too many more characters at the table so I think I'll just let them figure it out on their own. For the next campaign, I may bring it up if we don't have enough healing. I think that Paizo may have improved their APs a bit since the Age of Worms. It's been a blast but it wasn't perfect for 3.5 and certainly not made for Paizo.What's weird is that I had a group where two players wanted to actually just be the healbots. They loved it. The party was able to adventure longer. I had a hard time dealing any lasting damage to any things, hit points, poisons, ability damage, mind control, every thing was off limits as the GM. However the campaign fell apart quickly because of people moving.
If you're up to it, it might be a decent way for your party to pull through using their own resources. Have you given this any thought, by chance?I have given it some thought and I think I will hold off on the idea until I am a player and I need it :)
So if there are no verbal or somatic or material cost then you as a pc have no idea what he just did to save you from the dracolich.Before anyone says anything about a Knowledge Planes check, you only get to attempt that 1 time. There are not retries, so if you don't roll very very high, because Solar's have a lot of abilities, then you will never know. Now if you have seen one grant a Wish in game then there maybe an argument to that.Should be relatively simple for a high level character. DC could start as low as 5+ (angels are probably common knowledge for paladins and clerics) but as high as 15+ CR. That puts it at 27-37. The highest check in the party is +31. Well within what I would expect from a high level character. I generally assume that there is a lot of cross talk in battle with everyone shouting out ideas when appropriate. So it could have been the wizard that told him to summon a solar. I don't have a problem with Knowledge (religion) working for identifying angels.
Even then, even if all they did was gate in a solar, if they are in a position where the solar's best option is to grant a wish, then it could do so. The wish that the solar used in this case was to wish the paladin out of the dragon's mouth and on the monolith. Not the best use of a wish, but when you are under pressure (pun intended), you just throw out ideas and see which ones work.
In this case, there are so many different characters with every Knowledge skill covered that someone could have shouted: "CAN ANYONE SUMMON A SOLAR?" and then the paladin activates the bead that he doesn't have to actually handle. Viola. Then the solar sees the mortal agent of his god and wishes him out of the mouth. Once out, they work together to take down the beast. Once down, the solar and paladin meet, shake hands, and nod. They know that this is a 24 duration and they both know what needs to be done. No negotiation needed. No additional bribes. The solar wants to be part of the team that brings a god down. That would look really good on his resume.
Dude, Bob, awesome story! I now will always love that story too. ^-^You can find some copies here. I highly recommend it and the companion anthologies as soon as I can find them. I'm going to track down their ISBNs and see what I can find. I want them all again.
Thanks again!
I saw it and it's not a bad idea. I just don't want to have too many more characters at the table so I think I'll just let them figure it out on their own. For the next campaign, I may bring it up if we don't have enough healing. I think that Paizo may have improved their APs a bit since the Age of Worms. It's been a blast but it wasn't perfect for 3.5 and certainly not made for Paizo.
Cool, cool. I just figured I'd mention it. Simulacrum is a dandy spell for rounding out some weak spots in party support. It was especially useful in Baldur's Gate II, where popping out a copy of your mage at 1/2 level, complete with spells was really dandy when you needed some extra dakka. I find that copying healers tends to be more fruitful however, and if you're already a high level, a mini-solar makes for a mighty fine healer.
Can you buy Age of Wyrms off the Paizo store at all? I'd like to see it, I think. I like collecting adventures.
What's weird is that I had a group where two players wanted to actually just be the healbots. They loved it. The party was able to adventure longer. I had a hard time dealing any lasting damage to any things, hit points, poisons, ability damage, mind control, every thing was off limits as the GM. However the campaign fell apart quickly because of people moving.
I totally hear you here. I once GMed for a party of 4 clerics. Nearly impossible to kill that party. Everyone was decked in heavy armor (burned a feat for it), all were decent martial characters (good strength and 2 handed simple weapons), all of them were healers, all of them could summon, all of them had undead (at 5th level they could sport a combined total of 80 HD worth of undead), and so forth. That game ended shortly due to scheduling issues; but it was pretty awesome for me as a GM. I was running them through the Red Hand of Doom. I have to admit they looked like Godzilla through tokyo!
I was sad the game ended early, because I really would have liked to have seen if they could actually hold the first town against the oncoming horde (there's a sidebar that comments that in the very unlikely chance that the PCs hold the line, to give them a pat on the back for being exceptionally exceptional; and while I've had a group that nearly did it once, I think they could have made it to the last wave and beyond).
If you're up to it, it might be a decent way for your party to pull through using their own resources. Have you given this any thought, by chance?I have given it some thought and I think I will hold off on the idea until I am a player and I need it :)
Indeed. High level games are incredibly tough. You might just need it at some point. ^-^"
The GM is basically able to throw everything and the fiendish kitchen sink at you. Given the way XP values scale, battles can become incredibly hard at high levels, and very deep. Traps also get pretty nasty. Stories cover not merely mountains and valleys but entire universes. It's a lot to get into on both sides of the screen, but can be really fun. I'm glad to hear you and your players are having a blast.
The solar wants to be part of the team that brings a god down. That would look really good on his resume.
Good Deity: "Yes, Mr...hmmm, Solar #326? Yes...what are your qualifications again?"
Solar: "Well, I helped save the material plane, and killed the deity of murder..."Good Deity: "...Go on..."
|
|
Ciretose, the 10k gp is for offerings, but that is just how the material components end up being used. The sentence right before the one you quoted states: "This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings." You are right that there are still more costs if you want more from the creature. Those costs may or may not be in valuables. They could be in "livestock" as is suggested for some creatures.
Offerings to whom being the question? You are opening a gate to another plane and having a creature pulled through against their will. The offerings aren't for the creature, but for creating the force that is performing the action of bringing the creature to you in the same way that diamonds are for the force raising your friend from the dead.
Incense aren't universal currency that all extra dimensional beings crave any more than diamonds are. It's just want you have to do to cast that version of the spell. It is the material cost, exactly as it is written, same as other material costs.
You can't cast the spell with 10,000 gp worth of livestock.
But you can pay the demon you brought through with livestock, if you don't have the caster level to control them, subject to GM discretion.
Can you buy Age of Wyrms off the Paizo store at all? I'd like to see it, I think. I like collecting adventures.
I'm running it straight from the Dungeon Magazines they appeared in with the Dragon Magazine companion articles. You can probably find copies of the issues on eBay if there aren't any still here at Paizo.
Ciretose, the 10k gp is for offerings, but that is just how the material components end up being used. The sentence right before the one you quoted states: "This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings." You are right that there are still more costs if you want more from the creature. Those costs may or may not be in valuables. They could be in "livestock" as is suggested for some creatures.
Offerings to whom being the question? You are opening a gate to another plane and having a creature pulled through against their will. The offerings aren't for the creature, but for creating the force that is performing the action of bringing the creature to you in the same way that diamonds are for the force raising your friend from the dead.
Incense aren't universal currency that all extra dimensional beings crave any more than diamonds are. It's just want you have to do to cast that version of the spell. It is the material cost, exactly as it is written, same as other material costs.
You can't cast the spell with 10,000 gp worth of livestock.
But you can pay the demon you brought through with livestock, if you don't have the caster level to control them, subject to GM discretion.
All it says is that the 10k is for incense and offerings. I assume that it's for the creature you are calling. I also assume that this is just to get its attention so you can actually begin the negotiations. It's like a cover charge at an exclusive club. You still have to pay the bartender for the drinks.
You can't cast the spell with 10,000 gp worth of livestock.
But you can pay the demon you brought through with livestock, if you don't have the caster level to control them, subject to GM discretion.
Actually, you can. The calling feature requires you expend 10,000 gp worth of "rare incense and offerings". Offerings can be more or less anything, as long as the total cost is 10,000 gp. You might offer up an exquisite piece of art or treasure, a powerful magic item, or maybe a herd of cattle a thousand strong.
The text that is erroneously missing from the spell, but is referenced in the spell still, is as follows:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
which is supposed to precede...
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
The solar wants to be part of the team that brings a god down. That would look really good on his resume.Good Deity: "Yes, Mr...hmmm, Solar #326? Yes...what are your qualifications again?"
Solar: "Well, I helped save the material plane, and killed the deity of murder..."
Good Deity: "...Go on..."
I can easily see something like this spiraling into a whole campaign. If you've ever watched Supernatural and saw was Cas was doing, you know what I'm talking about.
|
|
You can't cast the spell with 10,000 gp worth of livestock.
But you can pay the demon you brought through with livestock, if you don't have the caster level to control them, subject to GM discretion.
Actually, you can. The calling feature requires you expend 10,000 gp worth of "rare incense and offerings". Offerings can be more or less anything, as long as the total cost is 10,000 gp. You might offer up an exquisite piece of art or treasure, a powerful magic item, or maybe a herd of cattle a thousand strong.
The text that is erroneously missing from the spell, but is referenced in the spell still, is as follows:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.which is supposed to precede...
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
I believe it was left out on purpose. They wouldn't accidentally leave it out of the 5th printing of the corebook. I posted the exact wording from the corebook. Books trump the SRD.
|
|
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.which is supposed to precede...
By leaving this out takes care of further abuse of the spell. Anyone would try and shove anything than can into that small time scale and call it an immediate task such as a Wish. They wouldn't forget five times in a row if that was supposed to be in there.
|
|
I just checked the SRD and it's not there either.
Gate
School conjuration (creation or calling); Level cleric/oracle 9, sorcerer/wizard 9; Domain glory 9, trade 9
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (see text)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect see text
Duration instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
Casting a gate spell has two effects.
First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.
Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.
The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.
Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you--anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.
You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.
|
|
You cannot use a touch spell to deliver a coup de grace. It says that you must be using a melee weapon, a bow or a crossbow. Touch spells do not count as melee weapons.
From the PRD:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack
Okay, it doesn't explicitly say it counts as a weapon, but it's more than close enough for me to say, yes, you can make a coup de grace with a damaging touch spell. To say, "No, it's still not a weapon, so you can't do it" is IMO a violation of common sense and reasonable interpretation of RAI.
However, I have no monopoly on right and wrong ways to play the game-- so handle it how you like, when you're running.
|
|
Ashiel, I have seen you (and a couple of others) frequently throw around the casting of "Simulacrum" around as a way to get super-powerful summoned creatures to be at your beck and call.
What does this line in the spell mean?
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).When you are creating a simulacrum of, say, the Tarrasque, what does it mean for the simulacrum of the Tarrasque to have "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"?
Do you reduce the feats and special abilities of your pet tarrasque to have "approprite" feats and special abilities for that level of creature? If so, what feats and special abilities do you remove when you create your simulacrum?
Anything based off HD. Including HD, BAB, base saving throws, skill ranks, non-bonus feats (as in not feats gained for race, such as how skeletons gain Improved Initiative), and their special attacks suffer reduced DCs because they have reduced HD (the DC for special attacks is usually 10 + 1/2 HD + key ability modifier). It doesn't remove racial abilities or effects for simply being one of those creatures.
Hmmm...
Gonna have to disagree, somewhat, here.
The line AD quotes about a critter having half the hit dice, AND half the... special abilities...
implies to me that, in the case of the Solar (as an example)-- a full-powered Solar has the spell casting ability (spells per day, CL, etc) of a 20th level Cleric-- a simalcrum of a Solar is going to have half of that-- the spell casting ability of a 10th level Cleric-- so, no spamming 'Mass Heal' from your 'Solar simalcrum'.
This is an interpretation of the spell's intent and meaning, but I think it's a reasonable one.
|
|
I'd also like to note, Ashiel, that one Holy Word is going to wipe out probably everyone but the Marilith on your Demon Encounter, too :) Insta thrown off the Prime!
==Aelryinth
Booyah! You are absolutely right! Aelryinth, you would probably do just fine. :3
Now the trick is getting 37+ summoned demons in the radius. Might take a few castings, really, but that's a good way to wipe most of them off the field. :D
Here's a curious question. Got any ideas for how to handle them if you were fighting them in a planar environment? Say on some nasty realm where they were native, perhaps? A popular outing for high level folks is screwing with fiends on their own plane (perhaps as some sort of rescue mission for a captured Paladin, for example).
I'm always up to hear people solve problems.
What happens to the PCs on that other plane, when one of the inhabitants (with enough HD to count) breaks out Unholy Word on them?
Not that this isn't interesting, but perhaps we should move to a new thread? We've wandered FAR, far away from Caster/non-caster issues...
PS: Um, yeah, for 10 minutes, with a bead of Karma and a Gate spell @ 18th level, you could indeed control a Solar. For 10 minutes. And god help you if you've made it do anything it wouldn't have done anyway...
I made another thread for it already in the rules section. The legality of it should be getting discussed there. Now if other aspects of it need to be discussed then maybe a thread in the general discussion area needs to be made.
I removed a post. If you're choosing not to respond to something, then don't. Being snarky about it doesn't add anything.
I disagree. RAI does matter, and many of us are really good at figuring it out. A lot of it is just experience with the system. The rest of it is reading comprehension. I will admit that some rules are not as clear as they could be though.
It does not require telepathy at all. Deductive reasoning and looking at precedence also helps.
Ashiel: Why are you trying to use the 3.5 Gate in a Pathfinder argument? You can't cherry pick back and forth from the two games and expect to use the better of the two. I hope that's not what you are doing.
No it's not. I was pointing out that the paragraph is erroneously missing, while still be cited in the rest of the spell text, which creates confusion. Now I cannot say if they left it out on purpose, or if they intended to fix it, but if it was done on purpose this is the most sloppy and shoddy fix/editing I have ever seen in any book by Paizo and they should be ashamed. Even if it was intended as some sort of balance fix, it would have taken all of 5 minutes to re-write the necessary portions of the spell to change how it worked. Instead, referenced text is simply missing, a duration is referred to, and it has absolutely no guidelines for what constitutes as an immediate service versus a more long term service.
I was not trying to create confusion.
Ashiel: you *should* be proud about being able to run higher power level characters than usual at your table. Running for powerful characters and having everyone still enjoy their session is the mark of an accomplished DM.
TL;DR: Grats to Ashiel for "winning" the game by providing a fun game to her players.
Thank you Dkonen, I really appreciate that. ^-^
As for the rest: Simulacrum can be a lot of fun. Bucketloads actually. We have avoided it so far, because it would lead to an arms race scenario. The one campaign it came up in it was debated about using simulacrums of perticular NPC adversaries to frame them and we realized nothing kept the adversaries from doing the same to us. After all the dust settled, it would have escalated to a simulacrum war with whoever had the most blindingly obedient duplicates winning.
Yeah, this is why I really encourage PC/GM communication. That's why I suggested the benign use of simulacrum for his game, and was discussing what it might mean, etc, etc. Arms races aren't very good at all. ^-^"
|
|
Ashiel: you *should* be proud about being able to run higher power level characters than usual at your table. Running for powerful characters and having everyone still enjoy their session is the mark of an accomplished DM.
The issue isn't if her game is fun for her players or not. Kirthfinder is by all accounts and absolutely wonderful high powered variant of Pathfinder.
The issue is the claim that her version of the game is RAI by the Devs, and therefore all the rest of us are breaking the rules and being cruel by not allowing 17th level casters to control Solars.
For all the flak I am taking for saying no, the other side of the argument is that you are wrong to say no, as it was the intent of the Devs and the rules for players to be able to do this in every game.
That is the root debate, lost in the weeds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You don't have to read someone's mind to know intent. You might need for them to speak up in order to prove that you interpreted them correctly. ...But lack of clarification from them does not make a any of us any less correct.
Actually someone can be wrong. Either you are reading something correctly or you are not. Now if you change it for the fun of your group that is an entirely different subject.
|
|
@dkonen
If you go back and read the post history, you will find that when you don't allow players to do the things proposed, it is "cruel" because in that persons opinions it is allowed by the rules.
If you are saying "I would allow this in my personal game" it is a non-issue. I think all of us said what Bob did in his game was not only kosher, but pretty cool.
Where it is a problem is declaring it is how the rule was intended, because implicit in that statement is that if you don't allow it in your game, you are being unfair to your players.
That is why I keep asking if people really think the Devs intended for 17th level casters to be able to control what are CR 23 creatures.
And at least one person's opinion seems to be "Yes, and if you don't let them fully control them you are also not following the rules."
|
|
Actually someone can be wrong. Either you are reading something correctly or you are not. Now if you change it for the fun of your group that is an entirely different subject.
Exactly. My issue isn't that it is happening is someone's game. Do what you want in your game and have a great time.
My issue is coming here and saying "This isn't an exploit or a loophole, this is the rule as the designers intended it, and you are breaking the rules if you do not let your players do it."
|
|
@dkonen
Where it is a problem is declaring it is how the rule was intended, because implicit in that statement is that if you don't allow it in your game, you are being unfair to your players.
I have an issue with this word "implicit". It means someone implied something.
If I say you are a mammal, the implication is that I believe you are a mammal, and therefore are warm blooded, birth live children, etc...
If I say the rule is X, the implication is that I believe that the rule is X, and that therefore if you don't do X, you aren't following the rule.
I am saying it directly, which is perhaps more gruff. But that doesn't mean when the other side says this is the rule, they aren't also saying that if you don't allow X, you are breaking the rules.
The magic words are "In my game", implying that you understand that what you propose is for your game, specifically. That isn't what is being said.
What is being said is "The rules allow this, therefore if you don't you aren't following the rules."
Further, they have explicitly said that they believe this is how the Devs intended it to be, meaning that doing otherwise is going against the rules as intended.
I'm stating my position more directly, because I prefer to cut to the chase.
You don't have to read someone's mind to know intent. You might need for them to speak up in order to prove that you interpreted them correctly. ...But lack of clarification from them does not make a any of us any less correct.unpacked: "you don't have to read a mind to know what they intend":
Intend, the motivation of an action.
Okay. I guess. If people are always telling you what they intend, I guess you don't need to read their mind. Or if they write it. Good enough. I just don't see a lot of "intended to be used as: ... " postscripts on rules.
"you might need for them to speak up ... but lack of clarification ...does not make us any less correct."
so.....they don't tell you what they intend..they don't clarify or state their intention but that doesn't make you any less correct ... for guessing at it?
Am I missing an intended phrase or turn of thought?
Misunderstandings of intent are the source of any number of conflicts. Noone should ever be absolutely certain of someone else's intent without the subject's direct endorsement.
Otherwise it's putting intent in someone else's mind, or, more commonly referred to as: words in someone else's mouth.
We are interpreting each other's intents right now. It is necessary for communication.