I'm not surprised. Keen + Improved Critical stacked in 3E too (but not 3.5) and martials were considered a lot nicer back then. In Pathfinder where few things are immune to critical hits, it's even nicer. The maximum HP bit is even sexier as well, since it almost doubles the amount of HP that martial characters will receive, since the average HP for 20 levels on a d10 is 110, but maximum is 200, a full 90 HP more. Barbarians would have 110 HP more. It's a nice boost. Critical hit charts aren't my thing, but if you've got keen + improved critical stacking, I imagine they're kind of sexy for crit-fishers.
With the hit points the enemies have, I had to do something significant. Some of the enemies have more than 500 hit points. When you are fighting multiple enemies like that, with insane ACs as well, something needs to be done. The two-handed fighter has an elven curve blade. The inquisitor has a great axe. The others are using longswords or similar threat range weapons. The archer is obviously using a bow and I think the wizard has a dagger but even he doesn't remember it most of the time.
One thing I did want to point out however is that you may not be aware, or maybe just don't care, but spellcasters can cast fireballs under water. It's just harder.
I haven't needed those rules so I hadn't looked them up. The last time the party was underwater they didn't have any fire based spells anyway. That is good to know about though. I can see some fun coming from that.
I think it largely depends on your group. If it's a steady group, it works well.
If you have new players regularly, house rules often work better, since it does take a while for the assembled players to work it out. House rules can merely be printed and handed out at the start of game.
And what's wrong with baroque? Done well it's a thing of complex beauty :P
'If it's not baroque, don't fix it...'
;)
Er what AP are you running anyway?
He's running the Age of Worms setting...the Second AP from Dungeon Magazine, and so the second AP ever.
Two of the three Dungeon Magazine AP's take the characters over level 20. they are NOT easy fights.
==Aelryinth
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I'm not surprised. Keen + Improved Critical stacked in 3E too (but not 3.5) and martials were considered a lot nicer back then. In Pathfinder where few things are immune to critical hits, it's even nicer. The maximum HP bit is even sexier as well, since it almost doubles the amount of HP that martial characters will receive, since the average HP for 20 levels on a d10 is 110, but maximum is 200, a full 90 HP more. Barbarians would have 110 HP more. It's a nice boost. Critical hit charts aren't my thing, but if you've got keen + improved critical stacking, I imagine they're kind of sexy for crit-fishers.With the hit points the enemies have, I had to do something significant. Some of the enemies have more than 500 hit points. When you are fighting multiple enemies like that, with insane ACs as well, something needs to be done. The two-handed fighter has an elven curve blade. The inquisitor has a great axe. The others are using longswords or similar threat range weapons. The archer is obviously using a bow and I think the wizard has a dagger but even he doesn't remember it most of the time.
One thing I did want to point out however is that you may not be aware, or maybe just don't care, but spellcasters can cast fireballs under water. It's just harder.I haven't needed those rules so I hadn't looked them up. The last time the party was underwater they didn't have any fire based spells anyway. That is good to know about though. I can see some fun coming from that.
Only 500 hp? I'm a bit surprised actually. Your average run of the mill kraken has almost 300 HP and it's CR 18. By CR 21, the sky's the limit baby! ^-^
A 20th level PC barbarian can hit 416 HP with average Hp. Max HP barbarian can hit 520 HP. Most high level monsters have tons of HD, especially in 3.x, and pretty super Con scores.
I won't presume to know what your party's tactics and such are, but 500 HP enemies at post 20th doesn't seem unreasonable. Hell, I posted a CR 20 Encounter here recently to describe what high level combat is like.
Here's the meat of it...
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP
This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
Can the Party Succeed?
Darn right they can! But only by being the baddest mo-fo's on the street, yo! That might entail bustin' time stop followed by summon monster VII and higher a few times to even the odds, while the druid summons elementals and the cleric attempts to spam banishment or gates in a solar and begs for help. The sorcerer TK-chucks the barbarian with a life-drinker at the Marilith, and everyone activates their free-action death ward armors to prevent being enervation spammed down, while the Fighter shoots arrows at the flying critters with his seeking bow, while the bard provides buffs for the entire party + summoned monsters + animal companions + cohorts, while he aids the fighter in shooting stuff down with his own composite seeking bow. Fortunately everyone is wearing continual protection from evil items to help ward against the succubi attacks, but they need to either get rid of the succubi quick or remove any demons that can dispel their items, because when the shields are down the charms are many!
If I was to sum the total HP in that encounter, I'm pretty sure it's in the thousands. The marilith herself has almost 300 Hp unbuffed, and lots of the minions have 100+ HP as well, unbuffed. There's about 37 demons in that encounter, plus most can summon more demons, potentially making it 37 + 50% more demons.
...as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.
Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
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...as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
Er what AP are you running anyway?
The Age of Worms. We're about 1/3 of the way through the final chapter. I'm hoping they survive. Two of the players dropped out because they come as a couple and one flaked out. I dropped another but I have someone stepping into her shoes for the final showdown. We're running their PCs as NPCs for now. I don't expect them all to survive, but I think at least 3 of them will. They have already decided that one will have to be sacrificed. It's one of the options for tactics at the end and they have already decided who it will be. Even though it's the guy who flaked, this character has put himself into self-sacrificial positions several times before so it's completely in character.
Only 500 hp? I'm a bit surprised actually. Your average run of the mill kraken has almost 300 HP and it's CR 18. By CR 21, the sky's the limit baby! ^-^
A 20th level PC barbarian can hit 416 HP with average Hp. Max HP barbarian can hit 520 HP. Most high level monsters have tons of HD, especially in 3.x, and pretty super Con scores.
I won't presume to know what your party's tactics and such are, but 500 HP enemies at post 20th doesn't seem unreasonable. Hell, I posted a CR 20 Encounter here recently to describe what high level combat is like.
Here's the meat of it...
CR 20 Encounter with Demons:
If I was to sum the total HP in that encounter, I'm pretty sure it's in the thousands. The marilith herself has almost 300 Hp unbuffed, and lots of the minions have 100+ HP as well, unbuffed. There's about 37 demons in that encounter, plus most can summon more demons, potentially making it 37 + 50% more demons.
I don't want to compare the encounters because I don't want to spoil anything for those who might end up running through this AP. Total hit points for an encounter isn't something I worry about. It's individual hit points combined with higher ACs and saves combined with damage reduction and fast healing/regeneration that is proving to have the battles last 3 to 4 rounds.
Keep in mind that I converted this from 3.5 to Pathfinder so some of the creatures saw a bit of a boost, even if it's just from extra feats. Undead saw a healthy boost of hit points. Dragons saw some serious changes as well. To make some of the changes, I used Pathfinder classes that already existed instead of converting each class so there are some additional boosts/changes. I am using a lot of high level anti-paladins for example. The final battle is truly going to be epic.
...as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not.
I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not....as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
Even if you weren't delivering the spell as part of another attack, I would also allow a coup de grace with a touch attack, since it is considered an armed melee attack. While it doesn't call out "weapon", natural attacks and natural weapons are used synonymously throughout the system, and I wouldn't deny a monk the ability to coup de grace with their unarmed strike, nor would I deny a lion or eidolon the ability to coup de grace with their natural attacks. All of the above can critically hit an opponent and are melee armed attacks. If a Magus wanted to coup de grace someone with a chill touch or shocking grasp, I see no problem with that (it's probably actually less damaging than a 1st level Fighter couping with a scythe).
That might not be 100% RAW, but it's good enough for me, and I'm generally very funny about the RAW. You guys may wish to FAQ it.
Only 500 hp? I'm a bit surprised actually. Your average run of the mill kraken has almost 300 HP and it's CR 18. By CR 21, the sky's the limit baby! ^-^
A 20th level PC barbarian can hit 416 HP with average Hp. Max HP barbarian can hit 520 HP. Most high level monsters have tons of HD, especially in 3.x, and pretty super Con scores.
I won't presume to know what your party's tactics and such are, but 500 HP enemies at post 20th doesn't seem unreasonable. Hell, I posted a CR 20 Encounter here recently to describe what high level combat is like.
Here's the meat of it...
CR 20 Encounter with Demons:
If I was to sum the total HP in that encounter, I'm pretty sure it's in the thousands. The marilith herself has almost 300 Hp unbuffed, and lots of the minions have 100+ HP as well, unbuffed. There's about 37 demons in that encounter, plus most can summon more demons, potentially making it 37 + 50% more demons.I don't want to compare the encounters because I don't want to spoil anything for those who might end up running through this AP. Total hit points for an encounter isn't something I worry about. It's individual hit points combined with higher ACs and saves combined with damage reduction and fast healing/regeneration that is proving to have the battles last 3 to 4 rounds.
Keep in mind that I converted this from 3.5 to Pathfinder so some of the creatures saw a bit of a boost, even if it's just from extra feats. Undead saw a healthy boost of hit points. Dragons saw some serious changes as well. To make some of the changes, I used Pathfinder classes that already existed instead of converting each class so there are some additional boosts/changes. I am using a lot of high level anti-paladins for example. The final battle is truly going to be epic.
Not only did some of the creatures see a bit of a boost, but more than likely your party has seen a bit of a drop, as there's a number of high level things in PF that have been nerfed from their 3.5 counterparts. For example, it wasn't uncommon for a wizard to polymorph the party's fighter-types into extremely mean creatures with exceptional strengths and extraordinary abilities; but shapeshifting abilities in general have been nerfed a lot in Pathfinder; and many of them that would be good martial buffs are self-only (like giant form); whereas in 3.5 you could have easily had your wizard cast the correct polymorph spell and turned your party's fighter into something like a cloud-giant + all of your fighter's gear.
Also, save or dies weren't as uncommon in 3.5. It was not an uncommon strategy for martials to tank the really bad stuff while the party debuff-bombed the baddies to slap 'em with finger of death or similar. Martials actually make exceptionally good debuffers later on due to stuff like life-drinkerss. If something just has too much HP, there were ways of dealing with it as a team in 3.5 that are harder to do in Pathfinder (truly, save or dies were a team effort, because they are generally too unreliable otherwise).
It's likely that as a 3.5 epic level game, the adventure may have been assuming certain things that the party just doesn't do. Adding in certain Pathfinder buffs which further help the big bads probably makes it bit more noticeable as well.
Just some thoughts, from one friend to another. :)
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I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not....as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
You cannot use a touch spell to deliver a coup de grace. It says that you must be using a melee weapon, a bow or a crossbow. Touch spells do not count as melee weapons.
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I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not....as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
Even if you weren't delivering the spell as part of another attack, I would also allow a coup de grace with a touch attack, since it is considered an armed melee attack. While it doesn't call out "weapon", natural attacks and natural weapons are used synonymously throughout the system, and I wouldn't deny a monk the ability to coup de grace with their unarmed strike, nor would I deny a lion or eidolon the ability to coup de grace with their natural attacks. All of the above can critically hit an opponent and are melee armed attacks. If a Magus wanted to coup de grace someone with a chill touch or shocking grasp, I see no problem with that (it's probably actually less damaging than a 1st level Fighter couping with a scythe).
That might not be 100% RAW, but it's good enough for me, and I'm generally very funny about the RAW. You guys may wish to FAQ it.
Natural attacks are still considered weapons. There is a difference between a melee weapon and a melee touch attack. If you wish to homebrew that then that's fine but it's not RAW.
It doesn't need a FAQ because it's perfectly clear. Touch attack spells do not count as melee weapons. Claws and bites do count as melee weapons while swords count as melee manufactured weapons.
You cannot use a touch spell to deliver a coup de grace. It says that you must be using a melee weapon, a bow or a crossbow. Touch spells do not count as melee weapons.I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not....as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
You can deliver them as part of a natural attack (or strike with a gauntlet or unarmed strike). Natural attacks are also referred to as "natural weapons" in the books. Specifically, it merges the two attacks into a single attack.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
A succubus can use vampiric touch and deliver it with her natural weapons. Even if you wouldn't allow a normal touch attack (which is both a melee attack and capable of critically hitting), you can still do so as part of the natural attack.
EDIT: I don't really care about arguing this with you right now. I'm already having a bad day, and Ciretose being asinine isn't helping. The only reason I even posted the CR 20 demon encounter was because I was having a friendly conversation with Bob Loblaw. EDIT 2: Speaking of asinine, aren't there rules against harassment? Even TriOmegaZero called Ciretose on it a couple of weeks ago. He just keeps floating around the forums taking jabs and pot-shots at me every chance he gets, and I'm getting sick and tired of it.
You cannot use a touch spell to deliver a coup de grace. It says that you must be using a melee weapon, a bow or a crossbow. Touch spells do not count as melee weapons.I think she's saying that the vampiric touch goes off with the coup de grace. The claw does it's damage and is added to the vampiric touch. The succubus gets temporary hit points equal to the claw damage + the vampiric touch damage. The spell just says that you gain hit points equal to the damage you deal. It doesn't say damage you deal with the spell. I believe that the intent is for it to just be from the spell, but that is not what it says so RAW supports Ashiel even if I think that RAI does not....as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP.Coup de grace delivering a touch spell with a natural attack...
Wow! You are nasty!
Can't do that with a spell. She can use her claws but you can't use a spell that way.
The spell can go off if she is holding the charge and then hits with her claws but it's the claws that deliver the coup de grace.
That's what I was saying she's probably doing: using the claw an still delivering the vampiric touch that was held as a charge. The damage for the coup de grace is the 2d6+2 from claws + 12d6 from vampiric touch. DC for the Fort Save to survive is an average of 61 and the temporary hit points she gets is also 61. That's strictly reading it by RAW. Both the coup de grace and the spell state "damage dealt." Whether or not this is RAI is another discussion.
A touch spell functions much like a weapon: you can take weapon focus and specialization, you make an attack roll to hit, and you can crit with it. Whether or not a GM allows a coup de grace with it is a gray area. I wouldn't have a problem with it. It would be an unusual enough circumstance that I doubt it would be game breaking.
Not only did some of the creatures see a bit of a boost, but more than likely your party has seen a bit of a drop, as there's a number of high level things in PF that have been nerfed from their 3.5 counterparts. For example, it wasn't uncommon for a wizard to polymorph the party's fighter-types into extremely mean creatures with exceptional strengths and extraordinary abilities; but shapeshifting abilities in general have been nerfed a lot in Pathfinder; and many of them that would be good martial buffs are self-only (like giant form); whereas in 3.5 you could have easily had your wizard cast the correct polymorph spell and turned your party's fighter into something like a cloud-giant + all of your fighter's gear.
Also, save or dies weren't as uncommon in 3.5. It was not an uncommon strategy for martials to tank the really bad stuff while the party debuff-bombed the baddies to slap 'em with finger of death or similar. Martials actually make exceptionally good debuffers later on due to stuff like life-drinkerss. If something just has too much HP, there were ways of dealing with it as a team in 3.5 that are harder to do in Pathfinder (truly, save or dies were a team effort, because they are generally too unreliable otherwise).
It's likely that as a 3.5 epic level game, the adventure may have been assuming certain things that the party just doesn't do. Adding in certain Pathfinder buffs which further help the big bads probably makes it bit more noticeable as well.
Just some thoughts, from one friend to another. :)
All of the classes saw a boost in one way or another but some of the spells took a bit of a hit. My players aren't having any issues with the spells. They haven't needed to worry about whether or not they can hit and deal damage. When the monsters would have more than double their hit points, the question was how many rounds can they take?
The only healers they have in the party are the inquisitor, paladin (who doesn't have spells) and the wizard (who is burning through limited wish and wish). The party burned a prayer bead in the boss fight in the previous adventure and got a solar to help them out for 24 hours. It's been 10 hours since then and they are understanding why someone should have played a cleric. In fact, if they had a cleric I would not have given them maximum hit points.
Now that they are epic, I'm in non-Pathfinder rules territory. Sure, there are some suggestions but it's only suggestions. Fortunately, they are only going to gain one more level before the final battle. They should be level 23. There aren't any epic feats or abilities available to them so it is likely that the writers had considered they would be able to do some things they cannot.
My group can be very creative sometimes so I'm not worried about them anymore. Besides, at this point if anyone dies it's going to be an epic death and they won't be unhappy about it.
A touch spell functions much like a weapon: you can take weapon focus and specialization, you make an attack roll to hit, and you can crit with it. Whether or not a GM allows a coup de grace with it is a gray area. I wouldn't have a problem with it. It would be an unusual enough circumstance that I doubt it would be game breaking.
It's not game breaking actually. It takes quite a few levels and sometimes some metamagic to make them truly stand out as terrible (worst case scenario is a CL 20 vampiric touch, maximized, for 120 damage), and yet virtually anyone can preform a wicked coup de grace from 1st level with a scythe or even a light pick (x4 crit multiplier). A martial character has more returns on coups more easily.
1st level warrior with power attack, 18 str, and a scythe? Average 56 damage, no spell resistance, no resources expended. At 1st level even. The succubus was casting at CL 12th. How about a commoner with a 10 strength using a light pick? Still 10 damage. Statistically more than a 1st level shocking grasp would deal on a coup de grace (7 average). In the hands of a character with a +2 strength, it would be 18 damage. Etc, etc, etc.
All of the classes saw a boost in one way or another but some of the spells took a bit of a hit. My players aren't having any issues with the spells. They haven't needed to worry about whether or not they can hit and deal damage. When the monsters would have more than double their hit points, the question was how many rounds can they take?
The only healers they have in the party are the inquisitor, paladin (who doesn't have spells) and the wizard (who is burning through limited wish and wish). The party burned a prayer bead in the boss fight in the previous adventure and got a solar to help them out for 24 hours. It's been 10 hours since then and they are understanding why someone should have played a cleric. In fact, if they had a cleric I would not have given them maximum hit points.
Now that they are epic, I'm in non-Pathfinder rules territory. Sure, there are some suggestions but it's only suggestions. Fortunately, they are only going to gain one more level before the final battle. They should be level 23. There aren't any epic feats or abilities available to them so it is likely that the writers had considered they would be able to do some things they cannot.
My group can be very creative sometimes so I'm not worried about them anymore. Besides, at this point if anyone dies it's going to be an epic death and they won't be unhappy about it.
Creativity is probably the best weapon at high levels. Heheh. Your group sounds like a great bunch. Gating the solar was a good plan, actually. They're very good as backup and they can be excellent healers as well. The ability to spam evil-smiting dinosaurs is kind of awesome too at higher levels, when sometimes you just need to throw down some cannon fodder to get some breathing room. :P
There's also the fact Pathfinder staffs suck really bad. In 3.x, staffs were the high level wands. Carrying around a staff of heal was a good bet for characters in 3.x, since it could have let classes like Rogue, Bard, or anyone heavily invested in UMD/Charisma helped out with the healing.
I'd advise against using the ELH progressions if you do. Following Monte Cook's lead, and the tiny suggestions for post-20th play in the gamemastery section of the core book, just letting the classes continue upward at more or less the same progression is a pretty good option. Just remember to let them keep going higher and higher with their +mods items. The warrior stuff like Power Attack scales, most of the damage bits should help to align themselves. :)
It sounds like your party is lacking in general endurance and problem solving. Very martial heavy, no spells, means that beating stuff until it's dead tends to be the primary and probably secondary option.
Has your wizard considered using summon monster or planar binding to get some minions to help your party's longevity? Summon Monster IX can get you Ghaele Azatas, which by default have a heal spell prepared, and cast spells as clerics so you can call them in and toss them some high level happy sticks if you have some. They also have raise dead and restoration, which means having a dead-raising cleric on call.
Also, while you might get a lot of dirty looks, your wizard could create a simulacrum of a solar to run around being the party's heal-bot. At 1/2 HD it's not super good at combat at those levels, short of just acting as a true-seeing spotter or summoning celestial t-rexes, but it can cast heal and you could have it prepare nothing but lots and lots of healing. That would help with your party's epic level HP battery problems.
I don't have an issue with it either. It's counted as a melee weapon for the purposes of in combat attacks, I'd have no issue with it being used as a weapon (for the sake of consistency) for coup de grace.
And don't worry about it, some folks are just like that. Maybe it's like in grade school and he just secretly adores you.
or he's a secret agent testing your mental fortitude for a super secret uber mission to save the world?
or he's an alien taken by your style and flair and is trying to figure out what makes you tick?
or he's horribly insecure and hoping to gain your notice by provoking you a la middle school ("s/he talked to me! *swoon*")
Anthropomorphic keydancing dustbunny learning the usage of english vernacular?
Life is too short to let other people ruin our days. That and laughing at mean people makes their heads explode.
'struth.
;)
Haha, thank you Dkonen; I appreciate the encouragement. ^-^
I try to ignore it, but it gets very annoying after a while. ಠ_ಠ
If you don't like the things you post being pointed out to you as being things you posted...well then you probably shouldn't post them...I mean, in a sense I was agreeing with what she said for a change.
When people intentionally misread/misrepresent them or won't accept further clarifications after the fact, then yes, it begins to piss me off. Especially so when they keep trying to start fights in completely different threads. It gets old, dude. Really. Freakin'. Old.
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While I am here
Gating a Solar:
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Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.
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So the Solar in the beastiary has 22 HD.
The line between "Creative" and "Cheese Rule Bending" doesn't need to be so hard to find...
I've said it before, I will say it again. People trying to pull things like this is why the devs can't let us have nice things.
The game is only as broken as you allow people to break it...
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If you don't like the things you post being pointed out to you as being things you posted...well then you probably shouldn't post them...I mean, in a sense I was agreeing with what she said for a change.When people intentionally misread/misrepresent them or won't accept further clarifications after the fact, then yes, it begins to piss me off. Especially so when they keep trying to start fights in completely different threads. It gets old, dude. Really. Freakin'. Old.
When you stop posting ways to bend the rules, I'll stop commenting on your posts being attempts to bend the rules.
It's why is it a forum, not a sermon.
*about his high level party*
Like I was saying, gating in a solar was a good idea on your party's part. Good on 'em. The cost to summon one is very well worth it. Especially since you can control them around level 18 or so, if you're a cleric. I imagine control isn't much of an issue since you're guys are probably heroic heroes doing some heroing. :)
I still recommend having the wizard craft a healbot with simulacrum. A solar simulacrum with 11 HD still has lots of sexy spell-like abilities like remove curse, remove disease, and resist energy (CL 11th for 30 resist), and can pop a CL 11 heal 3/day, which is nice too.
Now RAW the solar would still cast as a 20th level cleric, so assuming he wasn't nerfed, the simulacrum could fill his slots with mass heal and heal spells and various cure spells and some wards and maybe some buffs. If you have him light some incense of meditation, all his healing will be maximized for a day with no change in spell level, which can make some of the lesser heals pretty potent as well, would be useful for helping the party chip away at high HP enemies if you have him use any offensive clerical spells such as holy smite or flamestrike.
Just be careful with 'em. At 11 HD, they're a bit fragile at 22nd or 23rd level (they only have 170 HP instead of 363, and their saves are about -5 lower than normal). They're really easy to kill if they happen to get caught in a blasphemy spell or something. :\
EDIT: Again, if not a solar, there are some other nice outsiders like Azata that tend to be pretty good healers. If your party doesn't have someone who wants to play a healbot, just make or summon your own healbots.
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The line between "creative solution" and "game-breaking exploit" is as vague and shifting as a desert mirage.
The general tendency I see is for someone to read something in the rules, get all excited about what a brilliant technique it is, while frequently ignoring the limitations or constraints that are right there in the same paragraph. Then when they try to pull the "technique" on a GM if they don't get their way they claim the GM is "controlling" or "anti-player" or "arbitrary."
The same thing occurs here on the boards when someone posts one of their pet techniques, usually one that their GMs have allowed either through similar play style, fatigue with arguing or desire to avoid having their GM skills or worse, their personality, attacked, then when someone challenges their "brilliant technique" they launch into massive tirades and rules quotations to defend their position while launching accusations of "anti-fun", "anti-player", "uncreative" or just plain "ignorance" at forum adversaries.
As I have repeatedly said, perhaps my least favorite part of playing this game is dealing with exploits. It really does sometimes make me just want to go play Axis & Allies...
*about his high level party*Like I was saying, gating in a solar was a good idea on your party's part. Good on 'em. The cost to summon one is very well worth it. Especially since you can control them around level 18 or so, if you're a cleric. I imagine control isn't much of an issue since you're guys are probably heroic heroes doing some heroing. :)
I still recommend having the wizard craft a healbot with simulacrum. A solar simulacrum with 11 HD still has lots of sexy spell-like abilities like remove curse, remove disease, and resist energy (CL 11th for 30 resist), and can pop a CL 11 heal 3/day, which is nice too.
Now RAW the solar would still cast as a 20th level cleric, so assuming he wasn't nerfed, the simulacrum could fill his slots with mass heal and heal spells and various cure spells and some wards and maybe some buffs. If you have him light some incense of meditation, all his healing will be maximized for a day with no change in spell level, which can make some of the lesser heals pretty potent as well, would be useful for helping the party chip away at high HP enemies if you have him use any offensive clerical spells such as holy smite or flamestrike.
Just be careful with 'em. At 11 HD, they're a bit fragile at 22nd or 23rd level (they only have 170 HP instead of 363, and their saves are about -5 lower than normal). They're really easy to kill if they happen to get caught in a blasphemy spell or something. :\
EDIT: Again, if not a solar, there are some other nice outsiders like Azata that tend to be pretty good healers. If your party doesn't have someone who wants to play a healbot, just make or summon your own healbots.
Ashiel, are you saying that "around 18th level" a cleric can control a 22 HD Solar? Or are you saying that you can summon an 18 HD Solar and control that?
The line between "creative solution" and "game-breaking exploit" is as vague and shifting as a desert mirage.
Very true. I believe the rules exist for a reason. I think it's good to play within the rules. I myself and very tolerant of stuff people do as long as they are within those rules, because I feel that the rules work both ways. It's like a bond between player and GM, for their mutual benefit. If something truly becomes disruptive, then you can work it out as a group and come up with something that does work. Communication is a good thing. Working together as a team is a good thing. My players trust me, and I trust them. It's one of the reasons I neither panicked nor blew a gasket when one of them asked to call up some efreeti and play Aladdin for a while. I talked it over with them, addressed any special changes in expectations to be considered, realized it wasn't going to break my game, and learned how far the bubble can go without breaking. I feel like I'm a better GM than I was before for the experience.
Ashiel, I have seen you (and a couple of others) frequently throw around the casting of "Simulacrum" around as a way to get super-powerful summoned creatures to be at your beck and call.
What does this line in the spell mean?
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
When you are creating a simulacrum of, say, the Tarrasque, what does it mean for the simulacrum of the Tarrasque to have "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"?
Do you reduce the feats and special abilities of your pet tarrasque to have "approprite" feats and special abilities for that level of creature? If so, what feats and special abilities do you remove when you create your simulacrum?
Ashiel, are you saying that "around 18th level" a cleric can control a 22 HD Solar? Or are you saying that you can summon an 18 HD Solar and control that?
Err, well "called" actually. A cleric can use some prayer beads to hit CL 22 and cast gate at 18th level. That's enough to control the solar without fail. Just solars he grabs using gate. He can't look at an unaffiliated solar and just be like "Fix me a sandwich", so it has to be one he gates in while using his prayer beads.
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I talked it over with them, addressed any special changes in expectations to be considered, realized it wasn't going to break my game, and learned how far the bubble can go without breaking. I feel like I'm a better GM than I was before for the experience.
You can't break something already broken.
You seem to assume everyone is as lax with rules enforcement as you are. I have no idea what you are talking about with the magic beads that let control gated Solar's, and while it is lovely that one of your players can be an animated disney character in your game without causing any issues, I think as a group we may not all feel the same way.
Ashiel, I have seen you (and a couple of others) frequently throw around the casting of "Simulacrum" around as a way to get super-powerful summoned creatures to be at your beck and call.
What does this line in the spell mean?
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).When you are creating a simulacrum of, say, the Tarrasque, what does it mean for the simulacrum of the Tarrasque to have "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"?
Do you reduce the feats and special abilities of your pet tarrasque to have "approprite" feats and special abilities for that level of creature? If so, what feats and special abilities do you remove when you create your simulacrum?
Anything based off HD. Including HD, BAB, base saving throws, skill ranks, non-bonus feats (as in not feats gained for race, such as how skeletons gain Improved Initiative), and their special attacks suffer reduced DCs because they have reduced HD (the DC for special attacks is usually 10 + 1/2 HD + key ability modifier). It doesn't remove racial abilities or effects for simply being one of those creatures.
So if you made a simulacrum of an ancient red dragon, the save DC on its breath weapon and similar abilities would drop significantly. It's still however immune to fire, possesses the dragon's racial qualities, it's still a bigass dragon, and it's still immune to fire and such. It's just a significantly weaker and pale imitation of the true ancient dragon.
Some simulacrumed creatures are still pretty strong and/or useful even after their HD is sliced in half. For example, Terrasques are one I often joke about on the forums because of their sheer sturdiness and resiliency that makes them pretty scary critters. Their pile of immunities and defensive capabilities which have nothing to do with their level or HD. That's why I was joking in that one thread about giving a Fighter a pet terrasque to be his mount and making him feel like this: I'm the King of Everything!; because at the end of the day, riding on a continent devouring superbeing is pretty boss. :P
Who died and made you the guy who can tell other people how the game was intended to be played?
You can't break something already broken.
You seem to assume everyone is as lax with rules enforcement as you are.
**** ***.
I have no idea what you are talking about with the magic beads that let control gated Solar's, and while it is lovely that one of your players can be an animated disney character in your game without causing any issues, I think as a group we may not all feel the same way.
Strand of prayer beads core wondrous item. Activating the bead of karma can be done 1/day and increases your CL for all spells you cast by +4 for 10 minutes. Some of the other prayer beads also let you pop gate as well. I'm sure none of this was intended though. σ_σ
Ashiel, why do you assume that being able to "cast spells" at a +4 to caster level allows your cleric to control a solar as if you are at caster level 22? Do you rule that if you cast the "Gate" spell then for all purposes associated with the gated creature you act as if your caster level is equal to the spell cast level?
Would you acknowledge that it is possible to rule that your actual caster level not your "cast spells" caster level is what is needed to control a Solar? Especially since for purposes of calling an extra-planar creature the duration of the "gate" spell is "instantaneous"?
Ashiel, I have seen you (and a couple of others) frequently throw around the casting of "Simulacrum" around as a way to get super-powerful summoned creatures to be at your beck and call.
What does this line in the spell mean?
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).When you are creating a simulacrum of, say, the Tarrasque, what does it mean for the simulacrum of the Tarrasque to have "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"?
Do you reduce the feats and special abilities of your pet tarrasque to have "approprite" feats and special abilities for that level of creature? If so, what feats and special abilities do you remove when you create your simulacrum?
Anything based off HD. Including HD, BAB, base saving throws, skill ranks, non-bonus feats (as in not feats gained for race, such as how skeletons gain Improved Initiative), and their special attacks suffer reduced DCs because they have reduced HD (the DC for special attacks is usually 10 + 1/2 HD + key ability modifier). It doesn't remove racial abilities or effects for simply being one of those creatures.
So if you made a simulacrum of an ancient red dragon, the save DC on its breath weapon and similar abilities would drop significantly. It's still however immune to fire, possesses the dragon's racial qualities, it's still a bigass dragon, and it's still immune to fire and such. It's just a significantly weaker and pale imitation of the true ancient dragon.
Some simulacrumed creatures are still pretty strong and/or useful even after their HD is sliced in half. For example, Terrasques are one I often joke about on the forums because of their sheer sturdiness and resiliency that makes them pretty scary...
It is interesting that you have chosen the red dragon example. Since dragon powers are based on hit dice, why isn't it a reasonable ruling that a simulacrum of an "ancient red dragon" would actually have the powers and abilities of a young adult red dragon? I mean, sure, it would look like an ancient red dragon, (depending on the success of your disguise effect) but it would have the abilities of a young adult red dragon since that's what it's hit dice would be.
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Ashiel, I have seen you (and a couple of others) frequently throw around the casting of "Simulacrum" around as a way to get super-powerful summoned creatures to be at your beck and call.
What does this line in the spell mean?
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).When you are creating a simulacrum of, say, the Tarrasque, what does it mean for the simulacrum of the Tarrasque to have "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"?
Do you reduce the feats and special abilities of your pet tarrasque to have "approprite" feats and special abilities for that level of creature? If so, what feats and special abilities do you remove when you create your simulacrum?
How is one going to know what a Tarrasque is let alone know what one looks like to even do this spell?
Thankfully, it spends most of its
time in a deep torpor in an unknown cavern in a remote
corner of the world
You can't just flip through the Bestiary and then decide to make a Knowledge check to see if you know about one.
You can't just flip through the Bestiary and then decide to make a Knowledge check to see if you know about one.
I think this sort of approach was determined to be "badwrongfun" "anti-player GM" ever since your average first level druid from a typical medieval town based off of, say, old Paris somehow manages to have a velociraptor as an animal companion shallowsoul.
I think that ship has sailed. Expecting PCs to actually have any limitations to knowledge of animals, spells, magic items or unique creatures is just ruining their creativity and fun these days.
Ashiel, why do you assume that being able to "cast spells" at a +4 to caster level allows your cleric to control a solar as if you are at caster level 22? Do you rule that if you cast the "Gate" spell then for all purposes associated with the gated creature you act as if your caster level is equal to the spell cast level?
Would you acknowledge that it is possible to rule that your actual caster level not your "cast spells" caster level is what is needed to control a Solar? Especially since for purposes of calling an extra-planar creature the duration of the "gate" spell is "instantaneous"?
Because the spell effects are based on your caster level. Your caster level for purposes of your spells is 4 higher for 10 minutes. So for at least 10 minutes, you can control the solar. If you really need a solar for longer than 10 minutes, you may wish for your first command to be "teleport us all out of here, please".
It is interesting that you have chosen the red dragon example. Since dragon powers are based on hit dice, why isn't it a reasonable ruling that a simulacrum of an "ancient red dragon" is actually a young adult red dragon? I mean, sure, it would look like an ancient red dragon, (depending on the success of your disguise effect) but it would have the abilities of a young adult red dragon since that's what it's hit dice would be.
Because the dragon rules express that they are that way because of their age, not solely because of their hit dice, but that as they gain age their HD increases. Their age is not a product of their HD. See Dragon, True to see what I mean.
Likewise, several of the dragon's features are based purely upon its size, such as the natural attacks and crush abilities that it possesses. However, all of these are weaker due to the loss in HD. A dragon with 20 HD made into a simulacrum loses 10 points of BAB, 10d12 HD, and 5 points from its saving throws. It's breath weapon has the same damage potential, but the save DC just dropped 5 points as well. It also loses around 4-5 feats, weakening it further. Additionally, the caster level for any of its spell-like abilities drop 10 points, meaning that even its good spells are likely trivially easy to dispel or in some cases ward against.
Now can simulacrum be abused? Eh, yeah, probably. It's an amazingly powerful spell, and has been so since 3E. It hasn't really be changed a whole lot. Still just as wickedly useful as ever. Arguably a GM's best friend though. So much fun you can have with this spell as a GM (such as literally having your big bad pulling strings while copies of himself actually deal with things as his underlings). But that's why we have GMs. We can weigh stuff, and if it's going to be a problem in the game, we can discuss it with our players and work out a suitable compromise.
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Ashiel, why do you assume that being able to "cast spells" at a +4 to caster level allows your cleric to control a solar as if you are at caster level 22? Do you rule that if you cast the "Gate" spell then for all purposes associated with the gated creature you act as if your caster level is equal to the spell cast level?
Would you acknowledge that it is possible to rule that your actual caster level not your "cast spells" caster level is what is needed to control a Solar? Especially since for purposes of calling an extra-planar creature the duration of the "gate" spell is "instantaneous"?
Because the spell effects are based on your caster level. Your caster level for purposes of your spells is 4 higher for 10 minutes. So for at least 10 minutes, you can control the solar. If you really need a solar for longer than 10 minutes, you may wish for your first command to be "teleport us all out of here, please".
There is still nothing there that says you can make a Solar really do anything. It's pretty expensive to call a Solar just to teleport you out of there. Free wishes are not what you are really going to get, depending on your DM. Now if your DM is okay with that then so be it but don't post it on the forums like it's RAW. Gate is a DM controlled spell like I have said before. Getting a Wish would be considered special and would require a service or payment or something to that effect.
Ashiel, it is always dangerous to get into any dispute with you because I simply don't have the time to invest in these things that you seem to, or else I simply can't generate the "wall of imposing text" as easily.
I will just say the following.
I believe your interpretation of the gate spell allowing you to control the solar as if you had an actual caster level of 22 is just wrong. The caster level is only 22 for the casting of the spell. As soon as the spell is done, your caster level is 18 again. And it was only 22 for the purposes of casting the spell anyway, which allowed you to gate in the solar. The solar itself arrives and reacts to your actual caster level itself not the caster level you just had a second ago for the purpose of casting spells.
For the simulacrum I believe the wording of the spell is deliberately attempting to ensure that the simulacrum is level and hit die appropriate. There is no better way to make sure a dragon simulacrum is level and hit die appropriate than to give it the powers that are based on hit die or level. In this specific case that is very, very well defined. It's right there. Your simulacrum of a 22 HD dragon is an 11 HD dragon, now all you have to do is go look at the chart for an 11 HD dragon, and BINGO there's your powers and abilities.
This is what I think Ciretose is reacting to. You seem to take the most generous interpretation possible to how you rule the effects of spells will be. And you end up with major increases to the power of your spellcaster compared to what the spells are actually written to do.
In effect no non-elite PC should be able to control a Solar. Period. That's why the Solar was given 22 HD. You can gate it, talk to it, beg it and it MIGHT do what you want, but no measly set of prayer beads is going to suddenly make you able to control a demigod.
That's more or less my last comment on this. I know what your response will be.
You and I will again just have to totally and completely disagree on what the game designers intended.
I'm not telling you how to play. I'm just saying that your approach is amazingly generous to your PCs. And it is exactly this sort of generosity to spell casting PCs that leads to the idea that spellcasters are broken compared to martial characters.
Sure, if you allow them to effectively bind demigods to be their b%+%!es, sure they are.
How is one going to know what a Tarrasque is let alone know what one looks like to even do this spell?
Thankfully, it spends most of its
time in a deep torpor in an unknown cavern in a remote
corner of the worldYou can't just flip through the Bestiary and then decide to make a Knowledge check to see if you know about one.
Well like I said, I was joking about the tarrasque bit. I mean, it's funny to drop big T's name, and it's equally funny imagining a high level wizard with his pet Godzilla, or watching a Fighter aims his lance while on the specially fitted nose-saddle. :P
That being said, you sufficient investment in knowledge skills tends to mean sufficient study of various ancient and esoteric lores and such. A wizard of sufficiently high level can more than likely tell you what that ancient tyrannical beast is, when it last woke from its slumber to leave destruction in its wake, and probably the name of the last group of heroes who exhausted it into going back to sleep. And also junk like commune and stuff. >.>
I think this sort of approach was determined to be "badwrongfun" "anti-player GM" ever since your average first level druid from a typical medieval town based off of, say, old Paris somehow manages to have a velociraptor as an animal companion shallowsoul.
I think that ship has sailed. Expecting PCs to actually have any limitations to knowledge of animals, spells, magic items or unique creatures is just ruining their creativity and fun these days.
Eh, well, it's not badwrongfun exactly. It's just that while the typical medieval town might be based off old Paris, it probably isn't old Paris, and it's assumed that it's in a fantastic world with dragons, dinosaurs, and liches. If it actually IS old Paris, then there's probably quite a few things that don't fit, including 98% of the core content of D&D.
I don't think the ship has sailed actually. There's plenty of times where PCs just don't know what something is. I've had plenty of cases where PCs encounter some hairy beasty in my games and they didn't have a clue what it was. Sometimes the players did, but the PCs didn't. It's usually nice to have at least one guy (like a wizard or a psion) who can act as resident sage, who care share a wellspring of wisdom and knowledge with the party and advise them on things that go bump in the night. Sometimes it doesn't end up that way though... :P
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How is one going to know what a Tarrasque is let alone know what one looks like to even do this spell?
Thankfully, it spends most of its
time in a deep torpor in an unknown cavern in a remote
corner of the worldYou can't just flip through the Bestiary and then decide to make a Knowledge check to see if you know about one.
Well like I said, I was joking about the tarrasque bit. I mean, it's funny to drop big T's name, and it's equally funny imagining a high level wizard with his pet Godzilla, or watching a Fighter aims his lance while on the specially fitted nose-saddle. :P
That being said, you sufficient investment in knowledge skills tends to mean sufficient study of various ancient and esoteric lores and such. A wizard of sufficiently high level can more than likely tell you what that ancient tyrannical beast is, when it last woke from its slumber to leave destruction in its wake, and probably the name of the last group of heroes who exhausted it into going back to sleep. And also junk like commune and stuff. >.>
Explain to me, as a DM, how you are going approach that in game. Mind you, unless I have even told you about the Tarrasque, how are you even going to know what you are looking for, it's name, what it looks like etc...? Basically what I am telling you is how are you going to do this without meta-gaming?
Ashiel, why do you assume that being able to "cast spells" at a +4 to caster level allows your cleric to control a solar as if you are at caster level 22? Do you rule that if you cast the "Gate" spell then for all purposes associated with the gated creature you act as if your caster level is equal to the spell cast level?
Would you acknowledge that it is possible to rule that your actual caster level not your "cast spells" caster level is what is needed to control a Solar? Especially since for purposes of calling an extra-planar creature the duration of the "gate" spell is "instantaneous"?
As much as I had dislike what I call "psuedo caster levels" they are legit when determining spell effects.*
If I am a level 6 caster, and I have 4 pseudo caster levels then I get 10d6 for a fireball. If that is not the case then the rules should say which spells only count caster levels gained from HD, and which ones do not.*I don't know why I don't like them, which means my dislike may be irrational.