Wraith, why do you assume that the caster level the Solar is responding to is the caster level that was specifically listed as "for the purpose of casting spells?"
This isn't a fireball, which is a spell being cast. This is a living breathing Solar which walked through a gate that the caster created.
Now the solar is standing in front of a non-spellcasting cleric, whose non-spellcasting caster level is 18. Why would the solar act as though the cleric's caster level was 22 just because the gate that was just created was a 22 CL gate?
UPDATE: To try to put this more clearly, why do you and Ashiel believe that the "caster level" that the solar is reacting to is the "caster level for the purpose of casting spells?"
As for simulacrum I think that one is broken*. The GM should tell the player ahead of time what he won't get though since IIRC the spell cost GP.
For the most part the abilities should be kept, but powered down. Of course that should vary by monster.
*Not broken as in Overpowered, but written badly.
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As for simulacrum I think that one is broken*. The GM should tell the player ahead of time what he won't get though since IIRC the spell cost GP.
For the most part the abilities should be kept, but powered down. Of course that should vary by monster.*Not broken as in Overpowered, but written badly.
I don't think it should work on unique monsters. If I remember correctly, there was an entry for the Tarrasque that said you couldn't use the Tarrasque's image and form when using spells such as Sim and Polymorph.
Wraith, why do you assume that the caster level the Solar is responding to is the caster level that was specifically listed as "for the purpose of casting spells?"
This isn't a fireball, which is a spell being cast. This is a living breathing Solar which walked through a gate that the caster created.
Now the solar is standing in front of a non-spellcasting cleric, whose non-spellcasting caster level is 18. Why would the solar act as though the cleric's caster level was 22 just because the gate that was just created was a 22 CL gate?
Your ability to use a spell is determined by how powerful you are as a caster in many cases, which is based referenced as caster level. The pseudo caster levels don't give you more spells, but they do increase your power.
If it would apply to caster level checks, other spells, and concentration checks, I don't see why it would not apply to gate. Do I like it applying to gate? No, but it does.
There is still nothing there that says you can make a Solar really do anything. It's pretty expensive to call a Solar just to teleport you out of there. Free wishes are not what you are really going to get, depending on your DM. Now if your DM is okay with that then so be it but don't post it on the forums like it's RAW. Gate is a DM controlled spell like I have said before. Getting a Wish would be considered special and would require a service or payment or something to that effect.
I said that if you need the solar for more than 10 minutes, then your first command should be "teleport us away, please" because you're obviously screwed. When hitting the gate panic button, burning your daily use of your 45,000+ gp prayer beads, and flushing 10,000 gp worth of material components down the toilet to call in backup isn't going to turn the tide for you in 10 minutes or less, you just need to leave. It's time to run. You've obviously bitten off more than you can chew. Make for the hills, head out to sea, planeshift away, run for your life, because if gating a solar in under your control for 10 minutes isn't going to save your party, you are just clearly out of your league.
Ashiel, it is always dangerous to get into any dispute with you because I simply don't have the time to invest in these things that you seem to, or else I simply can't generate the "wall of imposing text" as easily.
Higher caster level, I suppose. :P
I will just say the following.
I believe your interpretation of the gate spell allowing you to control the solar as if you had an actual caster level of 22 is just wrong. The caster level is only 22 for the casting of the spell. As soon as the spell is done, your caster level is 18 again. And it was only 22 for the purposes of casting the spell anyway, which allowed you to gate in the solar. The solar itself arrives and reacts to your actual caster level itself not the caster level you just had a second ago for the purpose of casting spells.
Caster level be caster level be. You cast the spell at CL 22, and the limits and control of the spell are based on that caster level. Simple as that. If you want to give me a quote saying otherwise, feel free.
For the simulacrum I believe the wording of the spell is deliberately attempting to ensure that the simulacrum is level and hit die appropriate. There is no better way to make sure a dragon simulacrum is level and hit die appropriate than to give it the powers that are based on hit die or level. In this specific case that is very, very well defined. It's right there. Your simulacrum of a 22 HD dragon is an 11 HD dragon, now all you have to do is go look at the chart for an 11 HD dragon, and BINGO there's your powers and abilities.
The simulacrum merely is a watered down version of the regular one. The only thing that is changed is statistics based off HD, specifically what is said, specifically as the spell says it. If you take an elf with 20 hit dice, and simulacrum it, it's still an elf. It's just an elf with weaker base statistics. Making a simulacrum of an old dragon does not give you a smaller dragon. It gives you a weaker old dragon. That's how it is. This is not twisting or screwing with the way the spell is worded, this is simply not adding what is not there.
However, if in your game it's causing a problem, talk with your players. Odds are they will compromise. You can always house rule it, or ban it. But please, my friend, do not revise it here on the forums and then tell me that your revised version is how the rules work or how it was meant to be used. That's rude for one thing, and it serves no purposes.
This is what I think Ciretose is reacting to. You seem to take the most generous interpretation possible to how you rule the effects of spells will be. And you end up with major increases to the power of your spellcaster compared to what the spells are actually written to do.
You say generous interpretation, I say what the text says. Similacrum, as written, only waters down HD, class levels, and effects based therein. Just because you guys don't like it doesn't mean that it works differently, or the powers that be in the sky of gaming meant for it to work differently.
In effect no non-elite PC should be able to control a Solar. Period. That's why the Solar was given 22 HD. You can gate it, talk to it, beg it and it MIGHT do what you want, but no measly set of prayer beads is going to suddenly make you able to control a demigod.
Um, if an 18th level cleric is not an ELITE-PC, what on God's green earth would you call it!? You have a being, the cleric, the PC, the demigod-figure, who himself is capable of calling on miracles, summoning angels, and so forth, who has wielded his blessed heavily enchanted prayer beads that do not by their lonesome grant him the ability to control said being, but instead grant him a boost in his supernatural authority to call and command this solar on behalf of his divine will.
This is the problem I see. At 18th level, you ARE a demigod. You're just a slightly weaker demigod that a Solar. Just happens, however, you're also a divine spellcaster who apparently is good with the boss, and by sacrificing 10,000 gp worth of offerings to the summoned being and calling on the power of your prayer beads, you have enough authority or clout to get the Solar to obey you. Congratulations. A wizard couldn't have done it. I guess you must answer to a...higher authority perhaps?
You and I will again just have to totally and completely disagree on what the game designers intended.
I promise I won't try to throw what the designers did or did not intend in your face, since I am not the designers, nor did they decide to "fix it" from 3E to now (seriously, Simulacrum has had a reputation of being borked since as long as 3E has been around, and it still hasn't been changed). In fact, it was actually BUFFED in Pathfinder, because I believe the 3E and 3.5 version required you to have a sample of said being to make a copy; so you would have to have encountered Big T or asked for a lock of Solar-hair or something to use to make a copy.
I'm not telling you how to play. I'm just saying that your approach is amazingly generous to your PCs. And it is exactly this sort of generosity to spell casting PCs that leads to the idea that spellcasters are broken compared to martial characters.
Sure, if you allow them to effectively bind demigods to be their b%%&*es, sure they are.
You know the irony is that I can't recall the last time a martial character was complaining of being upstaged by a caster in our games, or the last time any of them felt useless. Funny that. Then again, I don't disallow martials from having nice things either. :P
Wraith, why do you assume that the caster level the Solar is responding to is the caster level that was specifically listed as "for the purpose of casting spells?"
This isn't a fireball, which is a spell being cast. This is a living breathing Solar which walked through a gate that the caster created.
Now the solar is standing in front of a non-spellcasting cleric, whose non-spellcasting caster level is 18. Why would the solar act as though the cleric's caster level was 22 just because the gate that was just created was a 22 CL gate?
Your ability to use a spell is determined by how powerful you are as a caster in many cases, which is based referenced as caster level. The pseudo caster levels don't give you more spells, but they do increase your power.
If it would apply to caster level checks, other spells, and concentration checks, I don't see why it would not apply to gate. Do I like it applying to gate? No, but it does.
Wraith, it applies to "gate". YOu cast "gate" as a 22nd level spellcaster. It doesn't make the casters actual caster level four levels higher. The prayer beads specifically say "casts spells as if", not "increases your caster level". That's a HUGE, HUGE difference.
Or maybe you don't think so.
Is there any difference in your mind between "actual caster level" and "cast spells as if"?
I think there is. And I don't think you holding up a little prayer bead and telling the solar "look, you HAVE to obey me! I have a 45,000 gp prayer bead in my hand!" is going to do anything but make the solar laugh.
Ashiel...
You can say you won't "throw the game designers intent" all you like. When you cite rules and claim that you are reading them accurately, you are, in fact, throwing the game designers intent" at me. That's what citing rules IS.
Like I said. We won't agree. You will continue to rule the most favorable results possible and I will continue to try to keep the game as balanced as possible.
Enjoy your gaming. I'm sure both of us will continue to have tons of fun playing the way we play.
Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level
How is that not increasing my caster level for the purpose of casting spells?
If I have 4 additional caster levels for the purpose of casting spells then I am effectively a 22 level casters when casting spells.
Gate is a spell.
You are not holding the bead. It just needs to "be on your person". When you activate the beads your caster level is increased.
Yes there is a difference between actual caster levels and what I call virtual caster levels.
Actual caster level determines how you progress on the spells known chart and/or the spells per day chart.
Wraith, why do you assume that the caster level the Solar is responding to is the caster level that was specifically listed as "for the purpose of casting spells?"
This isn't a fireball, which is a spell being cast. This is a living breathing Solar which walked through a gate that the caster created.
Now the solar is standing in front of a non-spellcasting cleric, whose non-spellcasting caster level is 18. Why would the solar act as though the cleric's caster level was 22 just because the gate that was just created was a 22 CL gate?
Your ability to use a spell is determined by how powerful you are as a caster in many cases, which is based referenced as caster level. The pseudo caster levels don't give you more spells, but they do increase your power.
If it would apply to caster level checks, other spells, and concentration checks, I don't see why it would not apply to gate. Do I like it applying to gate? No, but it does.
Thank you Wraithstrike. :o
=======================================================================Everyone and their neighbor seems to have gotten hostile simply because I offered some advice from one GM (myself) to another (Bob_Loblaw) because he expressed that he was running an epic level game but was having troubles with the party lacking a healer / dedicated support character. I offered it as a suggestion that, if he was comfortable with, would result in the party having the necessary healing that they would need. They are already past the level where they need prayer beads to control the solar. In fact, their wizard in the party can burn 10,000 gp and a gate and call up one at will, since they are level 22 at the moment.
As I said before, if not comfortable with it, then don't use it. I am comfortable with it as a GM. If you're 18th+ level and you want to go through the trouble of gating in a solar, that's not going to shatter my campaign. If you do it in the middle of battle, it might be demoralizing for your enemies, who might flee and try to strike at you later and more prepared, but it's not going to break anything.
Bob was already commenting that the encounters were borderline too hard for his group of gamers (who all sound like a swell lot, I'd say), which had led him to give them all maximum HP, because of the difficulty of the encounters, and said he did so merely because they lacked a healer. At 22nd level, a 11 HD solar spamming heals is not going to break your game. In fact, having a REAL solar on call isn't going to break your game. It's 22rd level. I already posted a CR 20 encounter that looks like someone opened the gates of hell into your back yard. An epic encounter for a 22nd level party is CR 25.
CR 25, guys. Can you comprehend how insanely hard that encounter would be? You would be flooded with doomsday. You'd probably be waging war against critters covered in non-associated levels, sporting extra HD, summoning the fell legions, mariliths and balors on parade, demon lords givin' ya the finger, angels crying out in fear, world shattering calamities, walking unnatural disasters, and they don't like you like tatooine cantina patrons don't like Lightsabers.
If Bob isn't down with the idea, Bob can simply ignore it. He's the GM, it's his prerogative. He knows his players the best. He is the one who can sit and talk with them. He's the one who's pulling the strings.
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How is one going to know what a Tarrasque is let alone know what one looks like to even do this spell?
Thankfully, it spends most of its
time in a deep torpor in an unknown cavern in a remote
corner of the worldYou can't just flip through the Bestiary and then decide to make a Knowledge check to see if you know about one.
When I brought up simulacrum issues in another thread, the Dev who jumped in (I think it was James but I don't remember) basically said that it was an old spell that was a lot of fun conceptually and that they didn't want to have to write the spell for all possible contingencies because some people would try to abuse it, because you really can't do it without ruining what makes the spell cool, it' flexibility.
He seemed to indicate that the assumption was that since it is an out of combat spell (taking 12 hours to cast) it was going to be subject to heavy GM adjudication that didn't need to be spelled out, since each GM can run the game as they want.
Which I am fine with.
What I am not fine with is someone saying the rules say you can do something just because the rule doesn't specifically say no. When you read a spell that indicates you can create a version that is functionally half the level of the actual, the presumption should be to have the version be half as powerful, not to cherry pick what it can have to maximize it's power.
Doing that is the exact opposite of the intent.
But some people try to exploit every loophole, forcing the Devs to be so precise and restrictive in order to have different people be able to sit at the same table.
So we often can't have nice things, in my opinion, because some people ruin it for everyone else by exploiting any grey area to "win" the game.
Which annoys me.
You guys are getting no where. Btw the cheese song made me laugh.
Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster levelHow is that not increasing my caster level for the purpose of casting spells?
If I have 4 additional caster levels for the purpose of casting spells then I am effectively a 22 level casters when casting spells.
Gate is a spell.
You are not holding the bead. It just needs to "be on your person". When you activate the beads your caster level is increased.
Yes there is a difference between actual caster levels and what I call virtual caster levels.
Actual caster level determines how you progress on the spells known chart and/or the spells per day chart.
Thanks again, Wraithstrike.
Incidentally, have you ever noticed how many nice things divine spellcasters have? We got candles of invocation, prayer beads, incense of meditation, those phylacteries that protect us from evil GMs pulling gotchas on you for alignment, that one item that boosts channeling. Nice things, nice things. o.o
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I said that if you need the solar for more than 10 minutes, then your first command should be "teleport us away, please" because you're obviously screwed.
You do realize you could just go through the gate in order to escape, right?
As to spell effect, there is a difference between "Effective Caster Level" and "Caster Level" in the verbiage throughout the game.
One is who you are, one is who you are for the purposes of a specific effect in a spell.
I think it is very clear which one applies to spells like Gate and Simulacrum.
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You guys are getting no where. Btw the cheese song made me laugh.
I'm not generally trying to win over the person who leading the other side of a dispute, I'm simply making sure fewer follow them off the cliff.
I will never be able to convince some people of the absurdity of many of the things I find absurd in the games they run, but I have found when you point them out to others, generally by using copy and paste, reasonable people realize how out of whack that persons game is from the game they want to play.
Kirthfinder is one of the best games out there. It also knows it is not Pathfinder, and not only doesn't claim to be, but is proud of the distinctions.
If you want to bend the hell out of the rules in your home game, and your players like it, awesome.
But don't bring that here and pretend it is how the rules were designed to be played.
If you can get a Dev in here to say they meant for you to be able to pull off some of the ridiculous stuff posted so far, feel free. FAQ it, if you believe it.
But I think even those on the other side realize they are working way out of the box.
Which is why they get mad when I quote them.
I guess we need to FAQ this because I also see effective caster levels as what is referenced when a spell references caster levels.
I said that if you need the solar for more than 10 minutes, then your first command should be "teleport us away, please" because you're obviously screwed.
You do realize you could just go through the gate in order to escape, right?
As to spell effect, there is a difference between "Effective Caster Level" and "Caster Level" in the verbiage throughout the game.
One is who you are, one is who you are for the purposes of a specific effect in a spell.
I think it is very clear which one applies to spells like Gate and Simulacrum.
I thought you had to use the gate for a specific purpose and using it did not give you access to all of its uses.
edit:After reading it, it does not specifically say that though.
I am heading over.
You do realize you could just go through the gate in order to escape, right?
*facepalm* Gah, attempts at humor fail on the internet. >.<
I was trying to imply, humorously, that if hitting the panic button and burning 10,000 gp worth of offerings for the solar still wouldn't improve your odds of survival, a better option would be to flee. I'm sorry if that was not clear. It was an attempt at humor. Yes fleeing through a gate would actually be better than calling a Solar in that case. I'm sorry that the joke has dragged on so long without the punchline becoming obvious... =.=
I'm not generally trying to win over the person who leading the other side of a dispute, I'm simply making sure fewer follow them off the cliff.
Ditto.
When I brought up simulacrum issues in another thread, the Dev who jumped in (I think it was James but I don't remember) basically said that it was an old spell that was a lot of fun conceptually and that they didn't want to have to write the spell for all possible contingencies because some people would try to abuse it, because you really can't do it without ruining what makes the spell cool, it' flexibility.
He seemed to indicate that the assumption was that since it is an out of combat spell (taking 12 hours to cast) it was going to be subject to heavy GM adjudication that didn't need to be spelled out, since each GM can run the game as they want.
Which I am fine with.
I'm fine with that too. It turns out I don't mind it the way it's written, because it doesn't disrupt my game. Hurray! That's why I was sharing my results with Bob (or trying to at least, before the "omg not the way it should work" ninjas attacked). If you wanted it to be less abuse-able, then sure, spell it out better. However, they're right that the GM basically gets to make any adjustments desired. That was spelled out back on page #1, actually.
I didn't make any adjustments. Turns out it works for my group. Yay for us I guess. We just halved their HD and all effects related to HD, and accepted that some critters just make nicer clones than others. Just because I am citing the rules as they are written doesn't mean I'm out to destroy our RPGs or burn down your friendly local game store.
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I'm fine with that too. It turns out I don't mind it the way it's written, because it doesn't disrupt my game. Hurray! That's why I was sharing my results with Bob (or trying to at least, before the "omg not the way it should work" ninjas attacked). If you wanted it to be less abuse-able, then sure, spell it out better.
So you admit you are abusing it, and that you will continue to do so unless the devs spell it out better?
Because that line of reasoning is my entire argument against your style of play, spelled out more clearly that I myself have been able to do so far.
I'm fine with that too. It turns out I don't mind it the way it's written, because it doesn't disrupt my game. Hurray! That's why I was sharing my results with Bob (or trying to at least, before the "omg not the way it should work" ninjas attacked). If you wanted it to be less abuse-able, then sure, spell it out better.So you admit you are abusing it, and that you will continue to do so unless the devs spell it out better?
Because that line of reasoning is my entire argument against your style of play, spelled out more clearly that I myself have been able to do so far.
No, I'm saying it could be abuse-able. Not that it is being abused. There's a big difference. If you want to make sure something is less likely to get abused, spell it out better. It's what I do when I'm writing mechanics/rules. The devs didn't wanna tackle trying to balance it and just gave it to us like it was in 3.x (slightly buffed even), and presumably let us rule 0 it if it gets screwy. Not the best designing philosophy when you're writing mechanics but it's not like it's a trend so I don't mind it much.
If it disrupts my game, then I might sit and talk with the players about it and come to a compromise. Nobody's ever played a Pun-Pun in our group, but we all know that Pun-Pun is technically legal in 3.x, which we were playing before Pathfinder. When it actually comes down to it, I run a milder (in powergaming/rule shenanigans) game than most of the other GMs I know online.
Incidentally, I rarely go outside of core when building my encounters, never exceed APL+3 CR with encountrs, and generally just try to focus on having a fun and engaging game. I don't fear player power, and I don't mind them getting really strong at high levels. I have run some games that have gone past 20th, and I've experienced some of the pitfalls and quirks therein, and have learned from it. I've seen what sort of effects that different levels of money and treasure create, and sometimes I share some of my discoveries.
It was not now, nor ever, my intention to start a fight merely by joking about the potential of Simulacrum RAW. I also wasn't trying to start a fight over the prayer beads thing (even though again, all spell effects are based on your CL with the buff, AFAIK). I was just trying to offer a friendly piece of advice, and possibly discuss the pros and cons, to Bob.
It's highly probable that if you were to actually sit down at one of my tabletop games, you'd probably think it was pretty mild. At least in appearance. I generally prefer to begin at 1st level and work the way up the totem pole. I play hard, and I play fair. That's all I ask of my players as well. No fudging the dice, no forgetting to mark off spells and resources, etc. I don't even fudge with my NPCs. I believe in a good, clean game.
I'm proud that player power doesn't bother me. I'm proud to have ran a game from 1st-25th level that contained 2 wizards, a sorcerer, a shugenja, a barbarian, and a warblade, that never left the martials feeling blue (well, 'cept the Warblade who was jealous of the Barbarian's damage, but I sat down and had a talk with the Warblade and discussed the fact he has lots of tricks the Barbarian doesn't, and how to use some of those, and he felt better and had more fun when he realized that trying to race the barbarian in damage was silly, when they could work together as a team). I am damn proud of my players for being so awesome, and testing me as a GM, and making it just as fun and exciting to be their GM as can be!
Cheers to my players, I love them so! Huzzah!
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I will say this: If anyone has been role playing long enough then you can tell when certain rule combos are in question. You can obviously tell that Solar's are not there for you to be milking wishes off of so why do it? If you have to break each word apart from a rule in order to make it work for you then it's possible the rule wasn't intended that way.
People talk about DM's being dicks, well I say don't be a dick to a DM and he won't be a dick to you. Coming up with game breaking combos is taking what the DM spent a lot of time and hard work and throwing it down the drain. Not only is it annoying for the DM but it's annoying for the other players as well.
Next time you want to say the DM is being a dick, how about stop and look at your own actions and see if they in turn qualify for that trait as well.
I'd also like to note, Ashiel, that one Holy Word is going to wipe out probably everyone but the Marilith on your Demon Encounter, too :) Insta thrown off the Prime!
==Aelryinth
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I'm fine with that too. It turns out I don't mind it the way it's written, because it doesn't disrupt my game. Hurray! That's why I was sharing my results with Bob (or trying to at least, before the "omg not the way it should work" ninjas attacked). If you wanted it to be less abuse-able, then sure, spell it out better.So you admit you are abusing it, and that you will continue to do so unless the devs spell it out better?
Because that line of reasoning is my entire argument against your style of play, spelled out more clearly that I myself have been able to do so far.
No, I'm saying it could be abuse-able. Not that it is being abused. There's a big difference.
Because your threshold of abuse is very low doesn't mean it isn't abuse.
I suspect Tina Turner and Ike Turner defined abuse very differently, for example.
If you believe that the Devs intended for a player to be able to gate a Solar, I think you are out of your mind.
So if you are allowing the players to do things outside of what the Devs intended the power level to be, your players are abusing the rules.
And that is cool for the relationship you have with your players, if you all like to get a little rough with the rules, go to town. But don't bring that over to a general forum and start telling people that disagree they are part of the flat earth society.
I'd also like to note, Ashiel, that one Holy Word is going to wipe out probably everyone but the Marilith on your Demon Encounter, too :) Insta thrown off the Prime!
==Aelryinth
Booyah! You are absolutely right! Aelryinth, you would probably do just fine. :3
Now the trick is getting 37+ summoned demons in the radius. Might take a few castings, really, but that's a good way to wipe most of them off the field. :D
Here's a curious question. Got any ideas for how to handle them if you were fighting them in a planar environment? Say on some nasty realm where they were native, perhaps? A popular outing for high level folks is screwing with fiends on their own plane (perhaps as some sort of rescue mission for a captured Paladin, for example).
I'm always up to hear people solve problems.
I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?
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The problem Ciretose and the others have is this>
An 11 HD simulacrum of a 22 HD dragon is going to be stronger then an 11 HD dragon.
This violates the very rules in the spell to reduction to level-appropriate powers, which Ashiel is conveniently overlooking.
By the same rule, a Tarrasque would lose most/all its immunities and have them subbed as resistances, because that would be level appropriate. Ashiel even said the breath weapon damage of her simulacrum red dragon would do the same damage as the original, just have -5 to save DC...that also is NOT level appropriate for an 11 HD creature.
So, yes, the simulacrum abuse is rife here.
The solar question is that the cleric might have the power to summon the solar with the prayer bead boost, but once its there, its an 18th level cleric trying to give commands to a 22 HD solar, and that's not going to wash.
You can stretch it for the duration of the prayer beads channeling divine approval, but at the end of it, the solar is basically going to leave. Unless you've got permanent caster level buffs which could keep it sticking around.
This is an instance where Law and Good domains, or Chaos and Good domains, summoning solars of the same alignment would work at level 20 with your +2 Permanent caster level bonus from domains.
==Aelryinth
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I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?
Do you think the Devs intended for player's to milk Wishes out of Solars, Glabrezus, and Efreets like they are going out of style?
I'd also like to note, Ashiel, that one Holy Word is going to wipe out probably everyone but the Marilith on your Demon Encounter, too :) Insta thrown off the Prime!
==Aelryinth
Booyah! You are absolutely right! Aelryinth, you would probably do just fine. :3
Now the trick is getting 37+ summoned demons in the radius. Might take a few castings, really, but that's a good way to wipe most of them off the field. :D
Here's a curious question. Got any ideas for how to handle them if you were fighting them in a planar environment? Say on some nasty realm where they were native, perhaps? A popular outing for high level folks is screwing with fiends on their own plane (perhaps as some sort of rescue mission for a captured Paladin, for example).
I'm always up to hear people solve problems.
greater rod of Widen to double the radius of the spell will work wonders. Keep in mind all the secondary effects of the spell, even on another plane...the lower level demons are going to be in some serious hurt with just one announcement, and that swings the action economy way in the other direction.
You're also assuming its outside and they've got tons of room to maneuver. All you have to do is constrict the battlespace down. For instance, if you create a tunnel effect, enervation is almost impossible if the melee demons are blocking the enemy demons from line of effect. Likewise, without line of sight (smoke bombs work fine against true seeing), the enemy can't telekinesis...and the best way around telekinesis is simply to Mass Enlarge the party and get them over the weight limit of 525 lbs. Simply throwing up a couple walls totally blocks the ranged attacks of the demons, forcing them to line up to get at the PC's.
What you've got is the reverse swarm effect, where you're trying to overwhelm the PC's with actions in your favor. All that has to be done is control the terrain to make it impossible to take those multiple actions. A wall of stone that forms a tunnel above the party is one way...demons can only come at them from two directions.
And did they finally put in a spell like 3E's proof against teleportation, which basically shuts down the t w/e ability of the demons nicely?
==Aelryinth
And that is cool for the relationship you have with your players, if you all like to get a little rough with the rules, go to town. But don't bring that over to a general forum and start telling people that disagree they are part of the flat earth society.
I didn't say people who disagree with me are part of the FES. In the post you reference, I was saying that there will always been people that disagree about something. I mean, look in another thread we ended up with a few pages of debating about whether or not a ring of sustenance was overpowered and game disrupting. Another thread, folks were talking about whether or not true strike as a swift action was fair on a magic item for 90,000 gp (a high-end major magic item costing more than 1/10th a 20th level PC's WBL). In yet another thread, we are arguing about whether or not the caster level of a spell determines the spell's effects. In yet another thread, we are discussing the benefits of a Paladin being able to save on a 2+ even when hit with a -7 save from limited wish, -4 from curse, and -2 from an Antipaladin's aura, and how that relates to other martial classes.
People will disagree. Wraithstike said it had never come up before, but he found people that disagree, like it was a great surprise. I was trying to emphasize that no matter how mundane we find something, or how casual it seems to be, you can bet money you can find someone else who will disagree. That was my point. I actually said that my post was neither hostile, nor targeted at anyone, nor even a playful jab, but a commentary on the nature of agree/disagree.
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PS: Not only do I think they knew you could gate a Solar, I think they specifically NERFED gating solars. Ever hear of chain gating? Well you can't do that sort of thing anymore (incidentally, that was cheese even I would have to give the players "the look" for). People have been gating solars for years. It's been happening for as long as I can remember. I have no doubt that the folks at Paizo knew you can Gate solars, because they're not new to this RPG at all. They had to go through the rules when they were re-releasing it under their brand. Nothing beyond the chain-gating potential has been changed between 3.5 Gate and Pathfinder Gate, or the Solars for that matter.
Incidentally, the cost for gating in 3.x was also a lot less. It was 1,000 XP. In Pathfinder it's 10,000 gp. Given the way XP costs worked in 3.x, that was a very, very nice deal for any battle you might wanna burst wings. It costs about double what the XP to GP conversion is in Pathfinder. I'm okay with that. You effectively have to flush a medium magic item down the toilet every time you wanna call up a bunch of creatures.
Incidentally, I can think of plenty of cases where I might prefer to gate in 50 HD worth of other creatures instead, because quantity is its own form of quality; especially when those 50 HD worth of creatures may include enough critters to flood a battlefield in your favor. Maybe a planetar, a few devas, an azata (Lillends can use bardic music you know), call a swarm of erinyes archers.
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I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?Do you think the Devs intended for player's to milk Wishes out of Solars, Glabrezus, and Efreets like they are going out of style?
Based on the rulings of a great many other things, I think it depends on the day. Just because something is not what the Devs intended, doesn't mean it should be banned. Did the Devs intend for players to get to level 20 and go past level 20? Should it be banned?
What the Developers intended is a useless and stupid argument. You have the rules, and you have the GM to judge the rules. I don't know what the Developers actually intend, I can guess, I could even ask them but that could be different than their intentions when they wrote the game, or maybe they didn't have any intentions on it in the first place, and now they like where it's going, maybe it could change in a week because intentions change. Should it matter? Not at all, because the developers aren't running your game, they just write the rules. They should write the rules well enough that you don't have to pull out rule 0 every 5 seconds but they don't know what's going to work in your game. That's why there is rule 0 in the first place. So if you don't want solars gated in your game (or milking wishes), don't allow it. If some other GM is okay with it, I don't see the problem.
Honestly what I think the Devs intended is for each GM and their players to run a game that is enjoyable for the whole group. Of course, that's just my theory.
Do you think the Devs intended for player's to milk Wishes out of Solars, Glabrezus, and Efreets like they are going out of style?I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?
Given the fact I know that it was brought up and discussed with the devs during the Alpha and Beta playtest and they still can be done so, while wish was beaten black and blue with the nerf bat...actually, yeah. O_o
Wish isn't what it used to be. In 3.x you could wish for 25,000 gp. You could wish for magic items of near infinite value. You could literally wish for infinite money, or sweet magic items. Both of those were removed. I wonder why...oh yeah, because they were really abuse-able when you grabbed a critter that uses wish as a spell-like ability. :P
They made sure you couldn't do that with Wish anymore, and yet left all the tools for milking wishes there for people to use them.
Based on the rulings of a great many other things, I think it depends on the day. Just because something is not what the Devs intended, doesn't mean it should be banned. Did the Devs intend for players to get to level 20 and go past level 20? Should it be banned?What the Developers intended is a useless and stupid argument. You have the rules, and you have the GM to judge the rules. I don't know what the Developers actually intend, I can guess, I could even ask them but that could be different than their intentions when they wrote the game, or maybe they didn't have any intentions on it in the first place, and now they like where it's going, maybe it could change in a week because intentions change. Should it matter? Not at all, because the developers aren't running your game, they just write the rules. They should write the rules well enough that you don't have to pull out rule 0 every 5 seconds but they don't know what's going to work in your game. That's why there is rule 0 in the first place. So if you don't want solars gated in your game (or milking wishes), don't allow it. If some other GM is okay with it, I don't see the problem.
Honestly what I think the Devs intended is for each GM and their players to run a game that is enjoyable for the whole group. Of course, that's just my theory.
*hugs Ragnarok Aeon*
greater rod of Widen to double the radius of the spell will work wonders. Keep in mind all the secondary effects of the spell, even on another plane...the lower level demons are going to be in some serious hurt with just one announcement, and that swings the action economy way in the other direction.You're also assuming its outside and they've got tons of room to maneuver. All you have to do is constrict the battlespace down. For instance, if you create a tunnel effect, enervation is almost impossible if the melee demons are blocking the enemy demons from line of effect. Likewise, without line of sight (smoke bombs work fine against true seeing), the enemy can't telekinesis...and the best way around telekinesis is simply to Mass Enlarge the party and get them over the weight limit of 525 lbs. Simply throwing up a couple walls totally blocks the ranged attacks of the demons, forcing them to line up to get at the PC's.
What you've got is the reverse swarm effect, where you're trying to overwhelm the PC's with actions in your favor. All that has to be done is control the terrain to make it impossible to take those multiple actions. A wall of stone that forms a tunnel above the party is one way...demons can only come at them from two directions.
And did they finally put in a spell like 3E's proof against teleportation, which basically shuts down the t w/e ability of the demons nicely?
Wonderful post Aelryinth. Great strategies, and good examples of how to turn the battle in your favor. Many props.
As for the teleporting thing, well, there's always dimensional anchor which has no save. Not sure of anything else though. Back in 3.x, our group typically just used stuff like split-ray, chain-spell, or similar metamagic feats to lock down multiple 'porting foes at once.
Creativity is probably the best weapon at high levels. Heheh. Your group sounds like a great bunch. Gating the solar was a good plan, actually. They're very good as backup and they can be excellent healers as well. The ability to spam evil-smiting dinosaurs is kind of awesome too at higher levels, when sometimes you just need to throw down some cannon fodder to get some breathing room. :P
Some of my players are more creative than others. The least creative are gone and we have seen an increase in effectiveness already.
There's also the fact Pathfinder staffs suck really bad. In 3.x, staffs were the high level wands. Carrying around a staff of heal was a good bet for characters in 3.x, since it could have let classes like Rogue, Bard, or anyone heavily invested in UMD/Charisma helped out with the healing.
The wizard has been really enjoying Staff-Like Wand. There aren't many staffs in the adventure that he liked anyway. They actually found a staff of the woodlands in the last adventure and they were about to sell it off when they remembered that they used to have a druid in the party who went off to do other things. He had left with a circlet that was actually an artifact so they teleported to him, used some diplomacy and traded for it. He couldn't use the circlet as well as the paladin and since he was friends with everyone anyway he went for the trade. I like when the party remembers old friends.
I'd advise against using the ELH progressions if you do. Following Monte Cook's lead, and the tiny suggestions for post-20th play in the gamemastery section of the core book, just letting the classes continue upward at more or less the same progression is a pretty good option. Just remember to let them keep going higher and higher with their +mods items. The warrior stuff like Power Attack scales, most of the damage bits should help to align themselves. :)
I'm not using anything from ELH. They can advance with another class or continue in a class they haven't finished. I just add up all the numbers. They don't get more than 3 iterative attacks. They don't get extra spell slots. They only have 1 more level ahead of them anyway so I'm not too worried.
It sounds like your party is lacking in general endurance and problem solving. Very martial heavy, no spells, means that beating stuff until it's dead tends to be the primary and probably secondary option.
They do like to beat the crap out of stuff. I had to teach a couple of the players that they shouldn't just make all their attacks then determine damage. Once a creature is dead, they can move on to another one. They have learned that -100 is as good as -Con.
Has your wizard considered using summon monster or planar binding to get some minions to help your party's longevity? Summon Monster IX can get you Ghaele Azatas, which by default have a heal spell prepared, and cast spells as clerics so you can call them in and toss them some high level happy sticks if you have some. They also have raise dead and restoration, which means having a dead-raising cleric on call.
We have a gentleman's agreement to not summon many creatures. With up to 7 players in the group, summoning often slows things down to a crawl. They do summon sometimes but not often. When this campaign is over, I am finally going to have a chance to play a full campaign (something I have never done in 30+ years) and they don't want me to play a summoner. It's something I was considering but the last time I played a conjurer in 3.5 my turns could last 45 minutes because I was summoning far more than I probably should have. They probably don't need to worry about longevity anymore. They have only 6 days left to save the world.
Also, while you might get a lot of dirty looks, your wizard could create a simulacrum of a solar to run around being the party's heal-bot. At 1/2 HD it's not super good at combat at those levels, short of just acting as a true-seeing spotter or summoning celestial t-rexes, but it can cast heal and you could have it prepare nothing but lots and lots of healing. That would help with your party's epic level HP battery problems.
He hasn't looked at simulacrum and I'm not going to remind him. He has access to every wizard spell in the game at this point. It's up to him to remember what he can do.
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I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?Do you think the Devs intended for player's to milk Wishes out of Solars, Glabrezus, and Efreets like they are going out of style?Based on the rulings of a great many other things, I think it depends on the day. Just because something is not what the Devs intended, doesn't mean it should be banned. Did the Devs intend for players to get to level 20 and go past level 20? Should it be banned?
What the Developers intended is a useless and stupid argument. You have the rules, and you have the GM to judge the rules. I don't know what the Developers actually intend, I can guess, I could even ask them but that could be different than their intentions when they wrote the game, or maybe they didn't have any intentions on it in the first place, and now they like where it's going, maybe it could change in a week because intentions change. Should it matter? Not at all, because the developers aren't running your game, they just write the rules. They should write the rules well enough that you don't have to pull out rule 0 every 5 seconds but they don't know what's going to work in your game. That's why there is rule 0 in the first place. So if you don't want solars gated in your game (or milking wishes), don't allow it. If some other GM is okay with it, I don't see the problem.
Honestly what I think the Devs intended is for each GM and their players to run a game that is enjoyable for the whole group. Of course, that's just my theory.
And there is the game you run and the game you try to get people on a messageboard to run.
You can do as you like in your game, but don't bring your game here and claim it is how it should be or how it is intended.
This is the messageboard for the game, where you go to get input from the community and the Devs, not where you come to say "I don't care what they were trying to do because this is Tey AwEsOmE!?!?!"
The house rules thread exists for a reason.
While I am here
Gating a Solar:
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Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.
------So the Solar in the beastiary has 22 HD.
The line between "Creative" and "Cheese Rule Bending" doesn't need to be so hard to find...
I've said it before, I will say it again. People trying to pull things like this is why the devs can't let us have nice things.
The game is only as broken as you allow people to break it...
I don't want to give away anything in the adventure so I won't go into details. The reason they even called a solar was because the paladin was at less than 10 hit points and in a dracolich's mouth with 1 to 2 rounds left before it could breathe again. She knew she wouldn't survive the breath even if she could heal enough to handle the automatic bite damage. She used a prayer bead and called a solar. The outer beings are currently aware of the situation and it was in everyone's interest to free the paladin. Once that was done, the wizard burned a wish to heal everyone up. They killed the dragon and there is no need to negotiate since the description says the angel is there for 1 day. The prayer bead of summoning is not detailed very well so I looked at the caster level and compared that to how gate works. He could get up to a 34 HD creature. Aiding a 20th level paladin to stop a dracolich and a god of undeath from taking over the world seems within reason.
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...While I am here
Gating a Solar:
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Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the
Instances like that are perfectly understandable. Spamming Gate in order to get crap loads of wishes is not.
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His example
I have no issue with your scenario, they didn't need to control the Solar, just call them as they would want to help the paladin. The Solar would have helped for story purposes, but would not be under player control.
The other scenario, however, where the player calls a Solar and controls them...not so much.
You had very specific story reasons why the Solar wouldn't mind being ripped from another plane. That is being a good GM.
Letting your players due it by rules manipulation...not so good.
Instances like that are perfectly understandable. Spamming Gate in order to get crap loads of wishes is not.
It is actually mentioned as a no-no in the description of the bead of summons:
Summons a powerful creature of appropriate alignment from the Outer Planes (an angel, devil, etc.) to aid the wearer for 1 day. (If the wearer uses the bead of summons to summon a deity's emissary frivolously, the deity takes that character's items and places a geas upon him as punishment at the very least.)
Gating a solar for wishes is frivolous. Gating a solar to help take out a dracolich and an evil god doesn't sound frivolous, especially from a paladin that has held on to that bead for quite some time. She could have used it many times in the past but didn't want to abuse her power.
Rules manipulation is subjective, well sometimes.
Did we ever get an answer as to how long you could control the outsider before you have to bargain with him per the planar ally rules?
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Instances like that are perfectly understandable. Spamming Gate in order to get crap loads of wishes is not.It is actually mentioned as a no-no in the description of the bead of summons:
Summons a powerful creature of appropriate alignment from the Outer Planes (an angel, devil, etc.) to aid the wearer for 1 day. (If the wearer uses the bead of summons to summon a deity's emissary frivolously, the deity takes that character's items and places a geas upon him as punishment at the very least.)Gating a solar for wishes is frivolous. Gating a solar to help take out a dracolich and an evil god doesn't sound frivolous, especially from a paladin that has held on to that bead for quite some time. She could have used it many times in the past but didn't want to abuse her power.
I would say that the situation you just described is an ideal situation for a Gate or the beads to be used.
His exampleI have no issue with your scenario, they didn't need to control the Solar, just call them as they would want to help the paladin. The Solar would have helped for story purposes, but would not be under player control.
The other scenario, however, where the player calls a Solar and controls them...not so much.
You had very specific story reasons why the Solar wouldn't mind being ripped from another plane. That is being a good GM.
Letting your players due it by rules manipulation...not so good.
I honestly wouldn't have an issue with someone raising their own caster level temporarily. Note that the prayer bead has a set caster level so it wouldn't matter in this case. In the case of the caster casting gate himself, getting a +4 to his caster level temporarily doesn't seem that bad to me. To me it would be the same as using an ioun stone or death knell. Something the caster must keep in mind is that this is only temporary. There are consequences to actions, good or bad. If the caster is willing to deal with those then I don't have a problem with it at all. I have seen the wizard come up with an idea and then the whole party told him that he isn't allowed to endanger them. Just because he can do something doesn't mean that he is allowed to.
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Rules manipulation is subjective, well sometimes.
Did we ever get an answer as to how long you could control the outsider before you have to bargain with him per the planar ally rules?
You only have 1 round to bargain with it.
You also have to specifically say how long you need the Solar for because you also have to pay 100gp per hit dice if it's 1 minute per caster level, 500gp per hit dice per hour per caster level, and 1,000gp per hit dice if it's one day per caster level on top of what it requests of you.
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I have seen the wizard come up with an idea and then the whole party told him that he isn't allowed to endanger them. Just because he can do something doesn't mean that he is allowed to.
I think this is where the disconnect starts to happen when it comes to certain people. They look at things in a vacuum without then taking the situation and adding in fellow player's and actual gameplay.
Sitting down and creating a 20th level character with all the books at your disposal is easy but try starting at level 1 and then working your way up through actual gameplay and you will see a big difference.
That is not what I mean. The gate rules say you get to control an outsider, but for longer service you have to bargain with it.
My question is if you are not trying to get a longer form of service how long do you get to control the outsider?
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
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I love how there are so many telepaths here who know exactly what or what not the devs intended. Those who know exactly what "power level" the devs intended. They know "the right way" to play the game. They just know those unwritten rules of what is and what's not allowed with their psychic powers. Isn't great to have mind reading powers?Do you think the Devs intended for player's to milk Wishes out of Solars, Glabrezus, and Efreets like they are going out of style?Based on the rulings of a great many other things, I think it depends on the day. Just because something is not what the Devs intended, doesn't mean it should be banned. Did the Devs intend for players to get to level 20 and go past level 20? Should it be banned?
What the Developers intended is a useless and stupid argument. You have the rules, and you have the GM to judge the rules. I don't know what the Developers actually intend, I can guess, I could even ask them but that could be different than their intentions when they wrote the game, or maybe they didn't have any intentions on it in the first place, and now they like where it's going, maybe it could change in a week because intentions change. Should it matter? Not at all, because the developers aren't running your game, they just write the rules. They should write the rules well enough that you don't have to pull out rule 0 every 5 seconds but they don't know what's going to work in your game. That's why there is rule 0 in the first place. So if you don't want solars gated in your game (or milking wishes), don't allow it. If some other GM is okay with it, I don't see the problem.
Honestly what I think the Devs intended is for each GM and their players to run a game that is enjoyable for the whole group. Of course, that's just my theory.
And there is the game you run and the game you try to get people on a messageboard to run.
You can do as you like in your game, but don't bring your game here and claim it is how it should be or how it is intended.
This is the messageboard for the game, where you go to get input from the community and the Devs, not where you come to say "I don't care what they were trying to do because this is Tey AwEsOmE!?!?!"
The house rules thread exists for a reason.
By that logic no one should ever post anything in these boards. The problem is that you think we're discussing houserules when we're discussing what makes and breaks the game. There are some people who are under the belief that the 15 minute day is a houserule, it's not; it's how they run the game.
If I interpret the control of cohorts, summons, and animal companions as just commands with the underling having the ability to accomplish said goals however they see fit(AKA GM Control) and someone just decides to let their players control the explicit actions, neither of those are houserules when it's simply not covered in the rules.
People come here and describe their games and how said interpretation worked or didn't work in their game. It's not houserules, it's not them changing the rules, it's them making a ruling where there were no rules to begin with.
It's ridiculous the amount of BadWrongFun claims they get tossed around on rulings that were never written or what the devs intended. People coming in and saying that they are playing the game right. You come in here when people describe their game and what works and how it works, and you get pissed off because you feel like they're telling you how to run your game, but they're not.
Unless there are actual rules written to counter a GMs rulings, then they are playing by the rules and their experiences are quite valid. Don't ever come in here talking about how it's not what the devs had in mind because that piss poor argument ain't gonna cut it.
Hell, even PFS has houserules, and I haven't seen anyone throw out that PFS examples as invalid. That alone pretty much proves that a community isn't going to have a singular concept of what works.
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That is not what I mean. The gate rules say you get to control an outsider, but for longer service you have to bargain with it.
My question is if you are not trying to get a longer form of service how long do you get to control the outsider?If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
That's actually up to the DM to decide. A DM may see the granting of a Wish to be more involved and require payment. Help us fight this battle would be considered aid.
A DM could actually say that a Solar is a unique creature in his world therefore it cannot be summoned. Seeing as how there are no rules as to what is and what isn't "unique" it wouldn't even be considered a house rule.
This is a DM fiat spell.
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That is not what I mean. The gate rules say you get to control an outsider, but for longer service you have to bargain with it.
My question is if you are not trying to get a longer form of service how long do you get to control the outsider?If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
Since this isn't a compulsion effect the limits on "control" are up to the DM as well.