Thoughts on things to teach newbies (and old dogs too)

[nosig]

A thought on some of the things we can teach beginners - habits of play, "tricks", things for in game and for at the table. Here's a few off the top of my head.
I'm sure this thread has been out there before - but it never hurts to go over it again.

1) Table tents. Please, at least your PCs name, maybe a discription or picture would be nice. Heck, I'd like to have your PCs Perception bonus in one corner too... but at a minimum what I need to call you when I want to get your attention.

2) Don't pick up your dice after you roll. Dice cheats do that (and some of us who don't cheat do it too, but all dice cheats do).

3) Roll where everyone can see (thou they wont bother to look), that way they can share in the 20s, and moan with the 1s.

4) Roll damage dice with the to hit dice... it really does speed play. The more dice you roll at ones the better.

5) Bring a pencil.

6) This is a social game. Bath before you come to the game. And brush your teeth. Really. Please. You'll be glad the rest of them did too.

any more?

[Mike Mistele]

nosig wrote:

2) Don't pick up your dice after you roll. Dice cheats do that (and some of us who don't cheat do it too, but all dice cheats do).

Or, at least, don't scoop 'em up the moment they stop rolling around.

[TwilightKnight]

Are you talking about things like THIS or THIS? How about THIS

I just wish players would use dice that can actually be read. Using dark <enter color here> dice with black ink might as well be snatched up after rolling them since no one can read them anyway. And using uninked clear dice, like gamescience, just screams, "I'm hiding something."

[Dan Luckett]

I think that's a new record for a painlord linkage in terms of how long it took before someone linked them.

[Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome]

Dan Luckett wrote:

I think that's a new record for a painlord linkage in terms of how long it took before someone linked them.

no kidding ... sheesh ..

[Thorkull]

1. Never go alone.
2. Never go at night.
3. Always save the last bullet for yourself.

Wait, that last one doesn't sound right. Let me check my notes...

[nosig]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Are you talking about things like THIS or THIS? How about THIS

I just wish players would use dice that can actually be read. Using dark <enter color here> dice with black ink might as well be snatched up after rolling them since no one can read them anyway. And using uninked clear dice, like gamescience, just screams, "I'm hiding something."

yeah, or speckled dice. If you have to pick the dice up and hold them 2 inches in front of your face to see the number on them.... get someone else to read them. Please.

but back to teaching the newbie... roll it, leave it.

[Selgard]

1) Know the rules for what you intend to do for your character.
(i.e. if you think bull rush is awesome- know how to do it).

2) don't be afraid to learn.

3) don't worry about being told you are wrong. there is alway sosmeone who knows the rules better than you. learn from it.

4) don't argue with the DM. If necessary, present your case as briefly as is humanly possible and then go with whatever ruling they present. Arguing with them just sucks up precious game time. (in PFS).

5) don't spend the next 2 hours trying to find a way to prove them false. :P

[nosig]

Selgard wrote:

1) Know the rules for what you intend to do for your character.

(i.e. if you think bull rush is awesome- know how to do it).

2) don't be afraid to learn.

3) don't worry about being told you are wrong. there is alway sosmeone who knows the rules better than you. learn from it.

4) don't argue with the DM. If necessary, present your case as briefly as is humanly possible and then go with whatever ruling they present. Arguing with them just sucks up precious game time. (in PFS).

5) don't spend the next 2 hours trying to find a way to prove them false. :P

Salgard - thanks for these! mostly they are aimed at the "old dogs" like me I think. #1 is one I would not worry about in a Newbie (someone who doesn't know how to read a d4 yet) - let the New Guy say "I want to do XXXX, can I do that?"

And I'd like to add one to your list too, if you don't mind.

6) do 1-5 above, so that you provide a GOOD EXAMPLE to the newbies in how it's done right.

[nosig]

pulling a little tread necro -

This needs to be pulled out and dusted off a little every now and again.

Anything new to add?

1) Table tents. Please, at least your PCs name, maybe a discription or picture would be nice. Heck, I'd like to have your PCs Perception bonus in one corner too... but at a minimum what I need to call you when I want to get your attention.

2) Don't pick up your dice after you roll. Dice cheats do that (and some of us who don't cheat do it too, but all dice cheats do).

3) Roll where everyone can see (thou they wont bother to look), that way they can share in the 20s, and moan with the 1s.

4) Roll damage dice with the to hit dice... it really does speed play. The more dice you roll at ones the better.

5) Bring a pencil.

6) This is a social game. Bath before you come to the game. And brush your teeth. Really. Please. You'll be glad the rest of them did too.

7) don't be afraid to learn.

8) don't worry about being told you are wrong. there is alway sosmeone who knows the rules better than you. learn from it.

9) don't argue with the DM. If necessary, present your case as briefly as is humanly possible and then go with whatever ruling they present. Arguing with them just sucks up precious game time. (in PFS).

any more?

[Charon's Little Helper]

For conventions #6 should be posted on the wall. (there's always that one guy :P)

[nosig]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

For conventions #6 should be posted on the wall. (there's always that one guy :P)

so very true... It's one reason I try to pack peppermints candy to a game.

[bdk86]

Jonathan Cary wrote:

1. Never go alone.

2. Never go at night.
3. Always save the last bullet for yourself.

Wait, that last one doesn't sound right. Let me check my notes...

4. Scream once for help, twice for run away.

[nosig]

bdk86 wrote:

Jonathan Cary wrote:

1. Never go alone.

2. Never go at night.
3. Always save the last bullet for yourself.

Wait, that last one doesn't sound right. Let me check my notes...

4. Scream once for help, twice for run away.

got that quote on an old Bandit Kingdoms T-Shirt, along with "Don't kill the Zombies, they're working"...

[Eric Brittain]

0) Let yourself have fun. This is a game, enjoy it!

[bdk86]

nosig wrote:

bdk86 wrote:

Jonathan Cary wrote:

1. Never go alone.

2. Never go at night.
3. Always save the last bullet for yourself.

Wait, that last one doesn't sound right. Let me check my notes...

4. Scream once for help, twice for run away.

got that quote on an old Bandit Kingdoms T-Shirt, along with "Don't kill the Zombies, they're working"...

That's where it came from. Also, "I shoot the bodies from here."

[FallofCamelot]

There was a famous case of a guy at a M:TG convention who stank so much that the tournament referee ruled that it was an unfair distraction and awarded the whole match to his opponent.

[Mystically Inclined]

So...

What exactly IS a table tent?

[Mike Mistele]

Mystically Inclined wrote:

So...

What exactly IS a table tent?

It's a sign which you put up in front of you at the game table, with (at a minimum) your character's name. As nosig notes, illustrations and additional information about the character can help the GM, and your fellow players, understand who's at the table with them. At some cons, the event organizer will have blank tents available for people to use, with space to write in their characters' info.

It's called a "tent" because, usually, they're two-sided and A-shaped, so that they can stand up on their own.

Here's a non-gaming example of what a table tent looks like (they're also commonly used at business meetings) -- imagine printing this out, and folding it in half along the long axis.

A friend of mine is a graphic designer; she does illustrated table tents for my characters -- here's an example.

[nosig]

Mike Mistele wrote:

Mystically Inclined wrote:

So...

What exactly IS a table tent?

It's a sign which you put up in front of you at the game table, with (at a minimum) your character's name. As nosig notes, illustrations and additional information about the character can help the GM, and your fellow players, understand who's at the table with them. At some cons, the event organizer will have blank tents available for people to use, with space to write in their characters' info.

It's called a "tent" because, usually, they're two-sided and A-shaped, so that they can stand up on their own.

Here's a non-gaming example of what a table tent looks like (they're also commonly used at business meetings) -- imagine printing this out, and folding it in half along the long axis.

A friend of mine is a graphic designer; she does illustrated table tents for my characters -- here's an example.

Love the Tent Mike! If I was judging, I'd ask for you to stick a sticky note on the edge of it with your Sense Motive and Perception (base), but I normally have that on inititive cards (which I use as the judge anyway) so I can get that at a glance....

[verdigris]

PFS Table Tents

Simpler, but perfectly valid. I've printed them off on colored card stock and they work great. They're also big enough to add whatever bonuses the GM asks for.

edit: Ack! They've updated them and they're gorgeous and still have plenty of room for whatever the GM asks for. I'm so glad I redownloaded them now.

[Finlanderboy]

As a Dm I write everyones name down in order they sit at the table. I agree with rolling the dice on the table and leaving them there, but rolling thme both at once does not speen up the game enough to matter much. Stubborn people rolling their dice slow the game more(I have to roll it on my book/in this corner, and whoops it falls off let me chase that and roll it off the table again next time too.).

The only reason I made a table tent was for my character Why-knee Face that cries the whole time so people can read the pun.

I agree with knowing the rules you use. If you use an ability steadily you should know it expertly.

Show appreciation to your DM. They most often buy stuff to run this, print out the chronicles for you and spend hours preparing. it costs them much more than a player to make sure this happens.

[nosig]

Finlanderboy wrote:

As a Dm I write everyones name down in order they sit at the table. I agree with rolling the dice on the table and leaving them there, but rolling thme both at once does not speen up the game enough to matter much. Stubborn people rolling their dice slow the game more(I have to roll it on my book/in this corner, and whoops it falls off let me chase that and roll it off the table again next time too.).

The only reason I made a table tent was for my character Why-knee Face that cries the whole time so people can read the pun.

I agree with knowing the rules you use. If you use an ability steadily you should know it expertly.

Show appreciation to your DM. They most often buy stuff to run this, print out the chronicles for you and spend hours preparing. it costs them much more than a player to make sure this happens.

#4 I disagree about the rolling dice. My experience disagrees with yours on this.

Table tents mean I can play with strangers and not have to check my player note cards to see who I'm talking too. It helps to match the player with the name/race/sex and I don't have to take the extra 5 to 10 minutes to write down everyones name (and hear it correctly in a crowded venue with other games going on).

I cut beginners slack for rules knowledge - if they have never been taught the cover rules - or worse yet been taught wrong... I try to correct it nicely.

[Finlanderboy]

Yes, beginers I do give slack for. But if a begginer wants to play a diifcult class/ability they should take the effort to know how to do it. I had a magus player look dumb founded at me when I asked him if he wanted to cast defensively and he was level 3.

As for #4 player math slow the game down more than that. For beginers I write different attack style.

1 normal attack and stats
2 power attack
3 rage power attack ect

[nosig]

Finlanderboy wrote:

Yes, beginers I do give slack for. But if a begginer wants to play a diifcult class/ability they should take the effort to know how to do it. I had a magus player look dumb founded at me when I asked him if he wanted to cast defensively and he was level 3.

As for #4 player math slow the game down more than that. For beginers I write different attack style.

1 normal attack and stats
2 power attack
3 rage power attack ect

while I agree that poor math skills slow the game (often more than the rolling dice together gimmick fixes), this is not effected by rolling the damage dice and to hit dice at the same time. Rolling them together speeds play - perhaps only 10 seconds... but 10 seconds for every player for every combat round adds up to a lot of time savings. So it seems to me the choice is...

1) Player with poor math skills rolls dice together...
VS.
2) Player with poor math skills rolls dice one at a time...

Option #2 is a time waste, and results in less time playing, more time spent looking for and shaking dice.

[Dhjika]

nosig wrote:

A thought on some of the things we can teach beginners - habits of play, "tricks", things for in game and for at the table.

any more?

I would add, say what you are going to do, and then roll the dice. don't roll dice and then say what the dice roll is for.

[Silbeg]

Dhjika wrote:

nosig wrote:

A thought on some of the things we can teach beginners - habits of play, "tricks", things for in game and for at the table.

any more?

I would add, say what you are going to do, and then roll the dice. don't roll dice and then say what the dice roll is for.

As a player, or if I have time, a GM, if I see a player struggling with the bonuses, I (sometimes) pull out an index card, and try and write down the options for him. Have lines such as:

Greatsword: +7 2d6+7
Greatsword PA: +6 2d6+10
Longbow: +5 1d8
Longbow DA: +4 1d8+2
Longbow Rapid: +3/+3 1d8/1d8
Longbow RA/DA: +2/+2 1d8+2/1d8+2

Or whatever.

I find that this is better as a teaching tool than just doing the math for them... though I will be honest, I often am calculating a PC's damage faster than they are, and sometimes will state the number if the person is struggling (ESPECIALLY if they are searching their character sheet for the number).

Now, I haven't actually done the index card trick in PFS yet... that is something I've only done in my home games. But, perhaps I should think about it. The trick is to do it in a way that is not insulting...

"Here's how I remember what my bonuses are..." and show him the matrix that I actually use. I do that all the time (perhaps not so much with my current characters, though I probably should).

[Dragnmoon]

My only issue with rolling all your dice at once is in my experience too many players do not distinguish what die is for what attack.

I had one player once roll all his attacks at once and when I asked him what die is for what attack he listed off the colors which happen to be the best possible combination of rolls. I told him now that I know that please re-roll, he was not happy about that.

I had one guy whose method was that the order of the roll was based on the distance they landed from him. Yeah that was not going to work for me.

I have also known GMs that have insisted that once you roll a die you can't change your actions. For example I have seen a player roll all his attack dice while attacking an opponent and it went down after the first attack, he stated he further attacks would go against the adjacent opponent but the DM would not allow him stating since he already rolled the dice he can't change his target. The rules allow you to change your attack/target in the middle of a full atack as long as they are legal attacks.

On table tents I am a huge fan of players taking up as little space as possible on a table, though I don't begrudge players using them I don't due to the table space they take up.

[nosig]

Dragnmoon wrote:

My only issue with rolling all your dice at once is in my experience too many players do not distinguish what die is for what attack.

I had one player once roll all his attacks at once and when I asked him what die is for what attack he listed off the colors which happen to be the best possible combination of rolls. I told him now that I know that please re-roll, he was not happy about that.

I had one guy whose method was that the order of the roll was based on the distance they landed from him. Yeah that was not going to work for me.

I have also known GMs that have insisted that once you roll a die you can't change your actions. For example I have seen a player roll all his attack dice while attacking an opponent and it went down after the first attack, he stated he further attacks would go against the adjacent opponent but the DM would not allow him stating since he already rolled the dice he can't change his target. The rules allow you to change your attack/target in the middle of a full atack as long as they are legal attacks.

On table tents I am a huge fan of players taking up as little space as possible on a table, though I don't begrudge players using them I don't due to the table space they take up.

Dragnmoon, #4 was "Roll damage dice with the to hit dice...", meaning to roll the D8 with the D20. I'm not sure of anyone who would be able to switch the two after the roll... unless it was a D12 and a D20 maybe?

and On table tents... some things I've started doing to reduce table "footprint".
1) I print a blank tent to give out- 4 to a standard sheet of paper, so the "footprint" on the table top is quite small. about what a folded index card takes up (less then most players pile of dice). These I print on cardstock and give out to players who don't have them. (cut into 1/4 page size). No frills, just functional.

For myself, I've taken to the following trick. I use binders for each of my PCs, with plastic sheet protectors. so I print my tent like it was an insert in the binder, maybe a cover page, with my PC info. When I sit down to play I pull the page 1/2 or 1/3 out of the sheet protector and fold it so it stands up. I can push it down onto the character page - or let it stand up showing my picture/writeup. Table space take up = zero. It's part of my character binder (and I never loose one, as they are in the binder if I pick up my character). When I get up to go, I just shove the page back into the sheet protector.

[Dragnmoon]

nosig wrote:

Dragnmoon, #4 was "Roll damage dice with the to hit dice...", meaning to roll the D8 with the D20. I'm not sure of anyone who would be able to switch the two after the roll... unless it was a D12 and a D20 maybe?

I thought you were talking about multiple attacks and multiple d20s at once as well.

[nosig]

Dragnmoon wrote:

nosig wrote:

Dragnmoon, #4 was "Roll damage dice with the to hit dice...", meaning to roll the D8 with the D20. I'm not sure of anyone who would be able to switch the two after the roll... unless it was a D12 and a D20 maybe?

I thought you were talking about multiple attacks and multiple d20s at once as well.

While that is possible, and would sometimes speed play, it has problems that you pointed out. Also, it might confuse beginners, as it is adding in another layer of complexity. Mostly, this was for teaching beginners (thus the subject line - "Thoughts on things to teach newbies (and old dogs too)").

[Dragnmoon]

nosig wrote:

Mostly, this was for teaching beginners (thus the subject line - "Thoughts on things to teach newbies (and old dogs too)").

It is exactly your subject line gave me the impression this was not just for newbies..."old dogs too" implies it is for experienced players as well.

[nosig]

Dragnmoon wrote:

nosig wrote:

Mostly, this was for teaching beginners (thus the subject line - "Thoughts on things to teach newbies (and old dogs too)").

It is exactly your subject line gave me the impression this was not just for newbies..."old dogs too" implies it is for experienced players as well.

Sorry - I ment it to be whatever you found helpful.

For me, mostly it was for those things which I would like to see newbies learn. Good habits to learn, like not picking up your dice after you roll. The comment about "old dogs too" was that we all develop bad habits over the years - and perhaps we could stand a refresher, look at things like we were newbies, and see what habits we could pick up (and old habits we might need to brake).

I'd like to make it a short list... maybe a dozen things. Print it on an index card and pass it to beginners. (maybe print it on the reverse side of those table tents I've started giveing out).

[SCPRedMage]

Dragnmoon wrote:

I had one guy whose method was that the order of the roll was based on the distance they landed from him. Yeah that was not going to work for me.

Why not? That's an arbitrary method that doesn't let him cherry-pick his rolls, and doesn't predispose any particular die to any particular result. Essentially, each die gets randomly assigned to an attack.

[Mike Mistele]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

I had one guy whose method was that the order of the roll was based on the distance they landed from him. Yeah that was not going to work for me.

Why not? That's an arbitrary method that doesn't let him cherry-pick his rolls, and doesn't predispose any particular die to any particular result. Essentially, each die gets randomly assigned to an attack.

I'd see that it could lead to bickering on the definition of nearest / furthest, depending on where the dice exactly landed. I think it's better to not leave that open to interpretation.

[Dragnmoon]

Mike Mistele wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

I had one guy whose method was that the order of the roll was based on the distance they landed from him. Yeah that was not going to work for me.

Why not?

I'd see that it could lead to bickering on the definition of nearest / furthest, depending on where the dice exactly landed. I think it's better to not leave that open to interpretation.

^This^

[trollbill]

You should buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with your first 2 PP rather than expect the party Cleric to use his wand on you all the time.

[Jason S]

nosig wrote:

any more?

How to fill out their chronicles properly and buy gear.

[nosig]

Jason S wrote:

nosig wrote:

any more?

How to fill out their chronicles properly and buy gear.

I've often attached a sticky list of many pieces of equipment to a chronicle, or just listed the items on the back of the dhronicle and then put down on the "Items Bought" box "Stuff on back - 137.4 gp.

How do you do it?

[Horatio Burns]

Jason S wrote:

nosig wrote:

any more?

How to fill out their chronicles properly and buy gear.

So true. We had one player want to save up his gold for retirement.

[Joe M.]

trollbill wrote:

You should buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with your first 2 PP rather than expect the party Cleric to use his wand on you all the time.

^ This. Nothing irritates me more. I swear I'm gonna run a LN Cleric of Abadar soon just to beat the lesson into the players who haven't learned it yet. Basic courtesy of team play!

[Oncoming_Storm]

Yeah guys, be a team player and don't heal new people.

edit: some advice, eventually everyone should have a way to deal with types of DR. Blunt/bludgeoning weapon, a cold iron weapon, and an alchemical silver weapon.

[nosig]

Oncoming_Storm wrote:

Yeah guys, be a team player and don't heal new people.

the last time I encountered a PC without a CLW wand (other than a 1st level PC on his first game or two) was a 6th level melee, barbarian alchemist. I have no idea who had been healing him for his other games, but we were thru the first two fights and dumping more healing into him when I realized that he had no happy stick and I'd just spent 8+ charges off my clerics wand (the most in any one encounter so far) healing him up, again. I still have no idea why he had no wand, but he stated he was "saving money for a big weapon"...

I'm sure most of us here would not even question burning resources on team mates... kind of like buying the next pitcher of beer. But if you have someone who never chips in for food, pretty soon you stop inviting him, right?

[nosig]

we seem to be drifting into advice to PCs... and I was really looking more to advice to Players.

"Bring a pencil" would apply to the player,
"Bring a silver weapon" would apply more to the PC (I hope).

[Curaigh]

Something I write on a firsties' chronicle ("with accompanying explanation")

Paizo.com and tell them to "look for the PFS logo"
Join the Pathfinder Society and create your character now! "this is where you go to get your PFS number & can track your sessions."
"click on the Player Resources and download the" Guide to PFS pfds. "Its free and answers questions unique to organized play like character generation, factions, traits, purchasing equipment, etc."
"email me if you have any questions." my email

Once I get their email I can include the longer info, but putting that sort of info on the back of a table tent to hand out might not be a bad idea as well. :)
EDIT: corrected some titles stuffs

[Joe M.]

Oncoming_Storm wrote:

Yeah guys, be a team player and don't heal new people.

edit: some advice, eventually everyone should have a way to deal with types of DR. Blunt/bludgeoning weapon, a cold iron weapon, and an alchemical silver weapon.

Haha. I meant the older players who don't bother even though they should know better, though I do see that my post was poorly put. Definitely implied what you took it as. My irritation was intended to express support for the idea that "Buy a CLW Wand" is an important one to tell new players. I didn't even think of it till I'd been playing two or three months and a more experienced player mentioned it. Embarrassing. It's a useful thing to mention to newbies.

[BigNorseWolf]

1) pay attention to the map. Every time someone does something, plan your move.

2) See who's in front of you on init, so you can be "on deck" and ready with your plan.

3) The game is built around a move action and a standard action, and sometimes the 5 foot step. Learn what goes in what category, figure out what your player wants to do, then know what the rules are for you doing it.

4) Who is your character? Not what, WHO? Where do they come from, why are they a pathfinder, why the hell are they being sent on suicide missions for teacups?

5) Role playing doesn't have to stop when the dice come out. Combat is a great time for flourishes, witty repartee , and acts of daring do that your character would do

[The Beard]

I have one very simple thing to add to this thread. Charging is the bread and butter of most cavaliers. The majority of classes function plenty well without doing that. If you are grouped with a cavalier and cannot charge an enemy without cutting off their charging lane, why not simply walk up to it? The only thing you miss out on is a +2 to hit. Meanwhile they will inflict massive amounts of damage if their charge connects. Particularly those running the gendarme archetype. A gendarme being denied the ability to charge is practically crippling to them.

[Jason S]

nosig wrote:

I've often attached a sticky list of many pieces of equipment to a chronicle, or just listed the items on the back of the dhronicle and then put down on the "Items Bought" box "Stuff on back - 137.4 gp.

How do you do it?

It's in reference to one player I met that had all of his (unordered)chronicles, but never filled out his name, player ID, accumulated XP, accumulated PP/fame, or accumulated gold. Basically his chronicles were blank except for the required GM parts. He had his gold and purchases in a spreadsheet.

To me, there's lots of room for purchases in the Items Bought section.

[JohnF]

Try to leave the charge lane open for everyone who can use it (not just cavaliers, although they should get first pick).

Make it easy for rogues to get a flank; they need their precision damage far more than most melee types need that extra +2 to hit.

I have a picture of my miniature on my table tent - that way everybody knows which player to talk to if they want that character to do something
(like get out of the charge lane, or leave somewhere for the rogue to flank ...)