I'm running a Human 2H Paladin and taking advantage of the Eldritch Heritage feats to follow the Orcish bloodline (great backstory for that one btw) - they really let the character blossom later in his life (+4 Strength at level 13 and then gonzo at level 17), but I'd like to take advantage of his initial Heritage feat for both role-play and optimization purposes.
The initial Eldritch Heritage feat (after taking the prereq of Skill Focus: Survival) allows for the following ability:
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
(For my purposes, 1/2 my sorcerer level would be my paladin level -2 x 1/2, i.e. at 6th level the benefit would be +2 and at 20th level it would be +9)
At any rate, I'm discussing with my GM the possibility of making that ability part of my Lay on Hands ability, thinking that it would both suit the character and an Oath of Vengeance Paladin (I'm playing him as a Paladin of Sarenrae consumed by an inner rage and trying to control it, focus it through her teachings). The debate right now is how best to do it and whether to do it at all - we're considering the following options:
When I add the Touch of Rage to my Lay on Hands healing, I can't apply any mercies and when I run out of uses per day I can't apply it at all.
or
I can add Touch of Rage to my Lay on Hands healing as often as I can use Lay on Hands, but I give up the benefits of Mercies entirely.
Do either of these options seem reasonable to you?
Keep in mind that this would allow me to use Touch of Rage on myself as a swift action, but that I wouldn't get the ability until I got the feat - probably at 5th level or 7th level. It would be a nice combat buff, particularly against non-evil foes, but there are pro's and con's to consider with each option.
I'd really appreciate hearing some thoughts on this from some of our veteran players and GM's.
So uh, nothing eh? Looks like I'm 0 for 2.
You and your GM are of course free to determine what is fine for your game at home.
I would advise against your proposition though, as Touch of Rage is mechanically a powerful ability - allowing that to function at the same time as your Lay on Hands (a powerful ability in its own right) is overpowered and stacks mechanical benefits strongly. Not to mention the ability to swiftly apply it to yourself. Giving up Mercies is hardly a fair trade.
Yes, the effect is only 1 round; but out of balance purposes the original Touch of Rage was never even intended to be meaningful to be cast on yourself (other than perhaps having bigger Attacks of Opportunities).
The idea is cool from a min-maxers perspective; but I find the roleplaying aspect a bit of a stretch. Mind you, this is subjective, so open to other's opinions. I find it a hard pill to swallow that a paladin would give in to his base emotions so readily. And also I'd have a hard time accepting a paladin as lawful-good who makes others go into a blind rage with a touch.
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The issue here is that you are combining two standard actions, and they are both very beneficial in combat. It will also stack with your Smite.
You will eventually get lots of uses of Lay on Hands so what in effect are you giving up for that bonus?
You suggest either the loss of the mercy when applied or simply the replacement for the mercy. Mercies are only useful in limited situations, where as the Touch of Rage would be useful every time you were in combat. It also seems to be a power for use on others as it has a 1 round duration (rather than next attack like true strike) and is a standard action to use, suggesting you would have to give up your attack to use the power.
There is a feat that allows you to do an extra 1d6 healing if you forgo the mercy, similar level of effectiveness. You pointed out that you will be gaining additional benefits at later levels.
My suggestion, use a feat to combine the effect of the two touch effects. Keep the mercies, use the number of times suggested by the power. You are already paying a feat for the Touch of Rage and will be feat starved as a paladin however, so I imagine this would not be a popular option.
Of your proposed options I would suggest the first. The power is limited to 3+cha, which is the same as a 6th level paladin's lay on hands. At higher levels you would be gaining a frequent bonus, you could apply as a swift action more times a day than the power suggests. The loss of the mercies completely is somewhat of a cost, but I don't think it outweighs the bonus every time you use lay on hands.
Just my thoughs, I'm no Pathfinder guru though :)
Thanks for the responses - sometimes I have a difficult time telling what should be in homebrew and what should be in advice, but my last post in the homebrew forum was an extensive one on a new Wizard archetype that would allow for Arcane channelling... and it got zero responses as well.
There were a couple of RP ideas, the first being that while the mechanics of the Orcish bloodline would be in place, the story behind them would be different in origin, like 'Touch of Rage' was actually 'Touch of Divine Power', infusing the affected target with a revitalization that included healing and a temporary boost of divine might. In that sense it fits perfectly. The character was originally designed under the concept that the orcish blood that ran in his veins - a dark family secret - was particularly strong and something he had to work to control, one of the reasons why he sought out the guidance of his faith. He's not perfect, but at least he can channel that inner rage into something useful, something important, something good. Either way, I'm comfortable with the RP elements of using the power thusly.
As far as the mechanics of it, my thought process was this - Oath of Vengeance already sacrifices some of its healing ability for offensive potential, giving up mercies for a 1 round attack benefit seemed to fit perfectly. I have to give up 2 feats to get to Touch of Rage (Skill Focus: Survival and the first Eldritch Heritage feat) which is another hit - on top of that I get basically nothing but healing until 5th or 7th level at best. At the moment I'm actually planning on taking it at 11th.
Removing conditions might be more situational, but is infinitely more useful when it comes up than a 1 round boost in offense - especially considering how relatively low those bonuses are at first. Figure +2 to hit and damage for one round at 6th level vs. the ability to remove any of several conditions at once... that would seem unbalanced to me in the opposite direction. That's +3 at 8th level, +4 at 10th - hardly game-breaking in my opinion.
I'm appreciating the discussion because I'm trying to see this option from all angles, to see if there is a broken element I've overlooked. The truth is, leaving it as it is would make it an utterly useless ability for the character and make two feats wasted beyond the purposes of fillign a prereq. Many people feel that Mercies are a touch overpowered themselves - the ability to heal AND remove conditions on yourself as a swift action is simply insane, especially at higher levels, which is why I didn't feel the trade-off was unbalanced.
Just for discussion's sake, what would you think about the Touch of Rage effect replacing the Healing benefit rather than the Mercies?
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Its a spell like ability so you can quality for quicken spell like ability, its a very potent ability that scales as you level and it is especially good for a large pc with a reach weapon and combat reflexes.
I think you probably need to find another way to use it rather than tie it into loh, but your home rules can let you do anything you want.
One question though: Would it still be a swift action to activate on self? The answer to this question is very important, for a swift -on demand- boost of such magnitude could unbalance the game
Again, is it really a 'boost of such magnitude'? We're talking about a +2 to hit and damage for a single round at 6th level... The truth is, if you used it to start combat you would very often be fully healed or nearly so, rendering the healing and combat bonuses would synergistic only occaisionally ... there's a lot of broken stuff out there, and then there's some stuff that seems to be broken but isn't (like Smite Evil) - more and more I'm thinking this would fall into the latter category.
at level 6...
a large PC, with a reach weapon, with combat reflexes, with +2 to hit and damage, with smite evil active, with haste...
threatens a 50 foot cube around his centre point (most rooms) with AoO's, he also has 3 attacks with haste active. so in theory you could be making 3-5 attacks at full and one at -5.
+2 to hit (10% chance) is very valuable in damage calculations as it makes it much more likely that your static bonuses (strength, power attack, smite etc) will land and the +2 damage that it adds makes it even better.
i don't think its game changing at level 6 but its going to be a big deal as you get higher and higher level, at level 12 its +5 to hit and +5 damage, on a full attack with haste? with combat reflexes and up to 4 attacks of opportunity, on an enlarged reach weapon user...
20 point buy
str 16 dex 12 con 14 int 7 wis 10 cha 15
+2 str for racail, +1 cha at lvl 4, +1 str at 8 and 12, +4 str belt, +4 str orc bloodline feat, +2 str enlarge person, +4 cha headband
total str at level 12 = 30 aprox +15 bonus
total cha at level 12 = 20 aprox +5 bonus
+3 fauchard full attack with no other buffs +30/+25/+20 (2d8+25/15-20)
add power attack +26/+21/+16 (2d8+37/15-20)
add haste +27/+27/+22/+17 (2d8+37/15-20)
add smite(no braclent) +32/+32/+27/+22 (2d8+49/15-20)
add orc bloodline ability +37/+37/+32/+27 (2d8+54/15-20)
attacks of opportunity that round against non smite opponents
+32 (2d8+42/15-20)
thats a hell of a lot of damage with a really really high to hit value, and i've been conservative with the damage you could be adding onto there in the form of weapon enhancement bonus or additional effects like bane or flaming etc.
the bolded portion would kill a CR 18 very old red dragon on average in one round, with a dpr of 330, without the orc ability the paladin would still do 290 dpr to an AC of 35 while smiting, which is still very high for any creatures you would see at around that level.
now you can draw your own conclusions from that but from an optimisation pov thats already a pretty effective paladin without the orc bloodline power being tagged onto a swift action lay on hands.
That's an ability meant to be used on others. Quicken SLA is a monster feat that works a max 3 times per day, and is a horrible argument for why it's fine as a swift action. (If no one is actually making that claim, ignore that bit; I just saw the phrase while skimming.)
This is an absolutely huge ability, especially for a Cha-main class such as the paladin.
It's not quite Smite Evil strong, but it's pretty damn close. Giving up Mercies is nowhere near a fair trade, as this is basically "Smite Whatever The Hell You Want For A Turn".
That's an ability meant to be used on others. Quicken SLA is a monster feat that works a max 3 times per day, and is a horrible argument for why it's fine as a swift action. (If no one is actually making that claim, ignore that bit; I just saw the phrase while skimming.)
This is an absolutely huge ability, especially for a Cha-main class such as the paladin.
It's not quite Smite Evil strong, but it's pretty damn close. Giving up Mercies is nowhere near a fair trade, as this is basically "Smite Whatever The Hell You Want For A Turn".
i mentioned quicken sla, and i am not arguing that its fine, just that it would be an option the DM may explore.
i'd still have to say no but it would make a sick option for an NPC.
at level 6...
a large PC, with a reach weapon, with combat reflexes, with +2 to hit and damage, with smite evil active, with haste...
threatens a 50 foot cube around his centre point (most rooms) with AoO's, he also has 3 attacks with haste active. so in theory you could be making 3-5 attacks at full and one at -5.
+2 to hit (10% chance) is very valuable in damage calculations as it makes it much more likely that your static bonuses (strength, power attack, smite etc) will land and the +2 damage that it adds makes it even better.
i don't think its game changing at level 6 but its going to be a big deal as you get higher and higher level, at level 12 its +5 to hit and +5 damage, on a full attack with haste? with combat reflexes and up to 4 attacks of opportunity, on an enlarged reach weapon user...
20 point buy
str 16 dex 12 con 14 int 7 wis 10 cha 15
+2 str for racail, +1 cha at lvl 4, +1 str at 8 and 12, +4 str belt, +4 str orc bloodline feat, +2 str enlarge person, +4 cha headband
total str at level 12 = 30 aprox +15 bonus
total cha at level 12 = 20 aprox +5 bonus+3 fauchard full attack with no other buffs +30/+25/+20 (2d8+25/15-20)
add power attack +26/+21/+16 (2d8+37/15-20)
add haste +27/+27/+22/+17 (2d8+37/15-20)
add smite(no braclent) +32/+32/+27/+22 (2d8+49/15-20)
add orc bloodline ability +37/+37/+32/+27 (2d8+54/15-20)attacks of opportunity that round against non smite opponents
+32 (2d8+42/15-20)thats a hell of a lot of damage with a really really high to hit value, and i've been conservative with the damage you could be adding onto there in the form of weapon enhancement bonus or additional effects like bane or flaming etc.
the bolded portion would kill a CR 18 very old red dragon on average in one round, with a dpr of 330, without the orc ability the paladin would still do 290 dpr to an AC of 35 while smiting, which is still very high for any creatures you would see at around that level.
Just throwing this out there - the final Eldritch Heritage feat, the one that lets you become a large creature, is not available until 17th level at the earliest. Another point that needs to be made when looking at those numbers is how much of them is actually a result of the Touch of Rage and how much of it is just a very effective pre-existing class making use of its most specialized ability - something I think you illuminated in the final paragraph quoted. Also, and this just may be me, but I never determine how strong a character is or isn't based on having the idealized spread of magic items and having specific spells placed on him by outside sources. Again, I really appreciate the responses thus far - very educational and its helping me consider other viewpoints. I'd really like to find a way to make this power worth using as there really aren't too many times when a Paladin wants to spend a standard action giving another player a 1 round combat bonus.
to be honest i've been a little conservative with the estimates i have used there, but it would be a relatively optimal spec. bear in mind that the stat boosts i have put on there are items that are available 75% of the time in any decent sized city by RAW, also consider the fact that the buffs eagles splendor and bulls strength would have the exact same effect without having to worry about magic items.
i don't think its unbelievable to expect a reach weapon martial character to be enlarged at any available opportunity, i think nearly anyone who has any idea how to play a wizard well would dedicate a few enlarge persons towards you at the start of most fights. if i were playing a wizard with your paladin in my party i would have my familiar carrying 5 enlarge person scrolls at all times, sitting on your shoulder with one always in hand to UMD as fights began.
if you consider the break down of abilities i put up there for you, imagine that your stats were very very poor, lets say you have a str of 22 and a cha of 18 after everything has gone on, your not enlarged.
normal fauchard no magic no buffs no nothing +18/+13/+9 (d10+9/18-20)
activate weapon bond, +3 keen fauchard +21/+16+/+11 (d10+12/15-20)
power attack +17/+12/+7 (d10+24/15-20)
smite +20/+15/+10 (d10+36/15-20)
orc bloodline +25/+20/+15 (d10+41/15-20)
lets compare that to a CR13 dragon, young adult red AC 26, you overcome his DR with your class ability using a rushy fauchard you picked up off the ground since you didn't have time to go shopping for any magic items(just kidding), and with smite you do an average DPR of 99.6 and with the orc bloodline ability you do an average DPR of 163.68, about 2/3 again the damage with the bloodline ability.
just to complete the comparison the young adult red dragon has 172 hit points normally, with a few magic items you would be one rounding it with the orc bloodline power active. its actually even more powerful than i thought before i ran the numbers.
Yea. You're taking an ability that is not supposed to be used on yourself, letting it be used on yourself as a swift action, and combining it with another ability to save on action economy.
Bad, bad, bad idea.
GEH removes the -2 CL period, ToR would function at +10 for a level 20 with it.
Forgot about that - though again, that feat doesn't come available til level 17 at the earliest. I don't know, maybe I can get some use out of the Touch of Rage power RAW by peeking over a ranged character's shoulder during an ambush? Obviously the entire purpose long term is to get the strength bonuses and the Power of Giants ability, but I'd really like to get some sort of practical use out of the ToR ability along the way.
The best use for it is for static area denial with a reach weapon while enlarged, not many npc's will want to walking into that threat area and it keeps your casters safer.
Using it on an archer is a good plan as well though.
there have already been quite a few good posts about why this is a terrible idea from a mechanical perspective, so i'll offer an argument (for it being a terrible idea) from a roleplaying perspective:
the orcish bloodline power isn't identical to- but is clearly based directly on- the barbarian ability...
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rageand
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
i know that there's nothing in the rules that prohibits this combo but (on top of the serious mechanical issues of your suggestion) it doesn't make sense for a paladin to embrace the chaotic nature of his heritage and practice/develop (which is what spending feats represents) gaining power from it...