It may be a little counter productive to ask the developers about things that wouldn't be established until the game has been out for a while, but I will shamelessly do it anyway (;
Has the possibility of additional playable character races in PFO been considered by Paizo? Does anyone think that adding more race options would be a good idea? Personally I think there are a lot of cool villain and anti-hero roles that could be filled by goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, full orcs and above all else, tieflings and strix. I think if the latter two races were considered core options they would be selected more often than halflings and gnomes, but that's just my opinion.
The tiefling is a staple of D&D and by extension, pathfinder. They are one of the most loved non standard player races of all time. As for the strix? To be honest I think it is one of Pathfinder's least appreciated contributions to pen and paper RPG's. If paizo makes something this god damn sexy, it should be put to good use.
Goblin Squad Member
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Oh yes. Please, please, please put most of the humanoid races into the game. It would be a pain to model and animate all of them, but it would add so much to the game, especially since it would provide incentive to build towns in exotic areas. How about one group of kobold players making a mine/fortress in a mountainous area?
Only problem is, how to explain them interacting with other races? Don't those races usually hate each other? Might be tricky, but worth a shot.
There used to be one role-playing server for NWN that had above ground race / underdark race fighting against each other. If you start as ground race, it is easier due to most factions are friendly. Underdark factions, however, are constantly competing against each other (I remember my kobold wandered around killing wild buffalo for food. When I walked close to the drow city, two demonflesh golem guard pop up and killed me). An Underdark player may not be hostile to one from another Underdark faction, but their npcs do.
If monsters characters are going to be available, maybe there should be some similar penalties so the human centric cities won't be flooded with monster players?
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That I can go for but the neutral "thieves" town should allow them. Because bad guys dont care what their pawns are as long as the pawns do what is desired.
However, I should as a "monster" be able to eventually gain rep with a city enough to enter. (generally by grouping with players and helping them with quests from a city.) Though this rep would be limited to that city alone even if other players wouldnt be so limited.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that tieflings should be added, because I can fully see the discriminated hellspawn finding greener pasture in the river kingdoms. In fact I played one in kingmaker. Changlings are another one I can easily see there with the amount of hags I'm assuming are in the river kingdoms. And I do like the concept of reputation opening doors (as it were). I figure if you want to play an orc who saves people, stops bandits, is a general do gooder and groups with similar folk. I hate to throw a oldie out but...example: drizzt. Then you should be welcomed into good settlements.
Racial adds should be micro-transaction fodder.
I'd pay for it as an unlockable addition.
MOSTLY. There's a few I still think should be paid add-ons for both, but they're all races that would start off with more hit dice or similar things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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MOSTLY. There's a few I still think should be paid add-ons for both, but they're all races that would start off with more hit dice or similar things.
Right there I'll vary from you. First off I don't think Hit dice is going to be a factor. I'm perfectly fine with paying on top of a subscription for vanity/flavor races. Once you start making it pay for SUPERIOR races... that is when it gets to be a problem. IMO paying the subscription should be enough to make you as powerful as anyone else who pays the subscription, paying more should not make you more powerful. You walk down that road, you may as well just call each match by showing eachother your bank accounts, whoever has the most disposable income wins, skip the actual match.
I've played too many games where someone who spends 20 a month, will always be beaten by someone who pays 30 a month, who will always lose to someone who spends 50 a month etc... It kind of defeats the whole purpose of the game underneath the spending war.
Now if you want to spend money to get extra characters, appearence items, races with different flavor, instruments, extra modules etc... (assuming those modules do not offer rewards of items clearly more powerful but not available outside of the module) I have no problem with that.
Has the possibility of additional playable character races in PFO been considered by Paizo?
Paizo isn't developing or making design decisions about the MMO.
Their LICENCE HOLDER, Goblinworks, is.
Right there I'll vary from you. First off I don't think Hit dice is going to be a factor. I'm perfectly fine with paying on top of a subscription for vanity/flavor races. Once you start making it pay for SUPERIOR races... that is when it gets to be a problem. IMO paying the subscription should be enough to make you as powerful as anyone else who pays the subscription, paying more should not make you more powerful. You walk down that road, you may as well just call each match by showing eachother your bank accounts, whoever has the most disposable income wins, skip the actual match.
I've played too many games where someone who spends 20 a month, will always be beaten by someone who pays 30 a month, who will always lose to someone who spends 50 a month etc... It kind of defeats the whole purpose of the game underneath the spending war.
Now if you want to spend money to get extra characters, appearence items, races with different flavor, instruments, extra modules etc... (assuming those modules do not offer rewards of items clearly more powerful but not available outside of the module) I have no problem with that.
TL;DR version I agree.
What I'm getting at is not so much a case of being able to outright buy higher level characters - I'm as opposed to it as anyone else - but for having characters already established at an effective character level equivalency, I would be more looking from the perspective akin to, referencing an oft-derided and equally oft-cited example, how Death Knights were implemented in WoW. You had requirements, sure, but they started off 55 levels in already. Being able to purchase a chargen option for a race with racial hit dice would not start you off in the Level 1 areas, but more akin to 'coming in out of the cold' from the proverbial wilds.
Or does the idea come across as too implausible to implement, or fall into that same category of 'buying win'?
Goblinworks Founder
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I want kitty cat race >.<
Weakness
Yarn - dazed for 1d4 rounds batting it around.
Furball
A spit attack that grosses out those who see it happen, causing them to be dazed for 1d4+1/lvl rounds as they try not to throw up. Once used you have to wait another 5 rounds to build up for another shot.
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I want kitty cat race >.<
Weakness
Yarn - dazed for 1d4 rounds batting it around.Furball
A spit attack that grosses out those who see it happen, causing them to be dazed for 1d4+1/lvl rounds as they try not to throw up. Once used you have to wait another 5 rounds to build up for another shot.
There's nothing funny about furry races. They RUIN online rpg's, especially MMOs.
There's nothing funny about furry races. They RUIN online rpg's, especially MMOs.I want kitty cat race >.<
Weakness
Yarn - dazed for 1d4 rounds batting it around.Furball
A spit attack that grosses out those who see it happen, causing them to be dazed for 1d4+1/lvl rounds as they try not to throw up. Once used you have to wait another 5 rounds to build up for another shot.
Yeah, tauren totally ruined World of Warcraft, didn't even get to a first expansion. There were no space goats in the second, and there was talk of werewolves in the third, with Panda-folk in the hypothetical fourth, but because of those damned dirty cowpeople, that never happened.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With the expected progression time. I would not like to see new races come to the game. I hate it when i make a character, and a race I would have rather used comes out when I am well into my character's development.
Character 'Race' is not a hard thing to implement, and doesn't affect much. It's basically a few feats/perks and a tag for npc interactions.
There is no reason not to include every race Pazio has in its library in the release game. And races are a lot easier to balance than classes/skill trees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In literature members of evil races turning on their own and being accepted by the regular world are few and far between; Drizzt and Dragonbait come to mind.
Personally I think this would spoil the feel of the game, seeing the evil races knocking shoulders with Butcher John from Meat Street, or the pot boy from the Golden Barrel Inn. Seeing some denizen of the underworld walking around buying current fashion accessories with not a stir from the local populace would wear a little thin after the first few bouts of laughter.
Maybe bring in some other races of neutral or good alignment, Centaurs, Fairies or Treants, everyone like’s a tree in the garden. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no reason not to include every race Pazio has in its library in the release game.
Have you considered the time and resources it would take just to create models for them? There's a very definite reason.
What I'm getting at is... having characters already established at an effective character level equivalency.
I actually think this is a great idea, and have proposed it elsewhere in a similar thread discussing how to handle permanent death.
In my mind, the training that your character receives should not be lost if you delete that character, but instead should be possible to apply to another character. For example, I'm planning on getting two subs and leveling up a Wizard and a Paladin at the same time. Once we're two and a half years in, both should be roughly Capstone level. At that point, if I choose to do so, I think I should be able to delete the Paladin and create a new character with that many skill points, and either be able to create a brand new Capstone Paladin, or even a Capstone Cleric or Rogue, or whatever. However, I should not be able to delete both of my characters and create a new character that is suddenly double-Capstoned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my mind, the training that your character receives should not be lost if you delete that character, but instead should be possible to apply to another character. For example, I'm planning on getting two subs and leveling up a Wizard and a Paladin at the same time. Once we're two and a half years in, both should be roughly Capstone level. At that point, if I choose to do so, I think I should be able to delete the Paladin and create a new character with that many skill points, and either be able to create a brand new Capstone Paladin, or even a Capstone Cleric or Rogue, or whatever. However, I should not be able to delete both of my characters and create a new character that is suddenly double-Capstoned.
Perhaps a better way to handle that would be a microtransaction "reincarnation item" That allows you to swap out your race and attributes and even name (assuming a traditional character name system). As far as re-creating and being allowed to re-alocate your earned skills I more or less disagree with the concept, mainly that is just the "you earned X, you should be entitled to X not Y. Of course some of that is just my purist sides. When I played ragnarok online that was actually a huge part of the game was planning out your build longterm. There were numerous builds that were extremely effective at low levels, but mediocre at high levels, when 4 years in they introduced an item to allow you to change your build, the people who took the hard route of playing the hard to level at low levels but effective later, felt pretty ripped off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, yeah, I recognize the problem associated with having sunk costs in builds that were effective early on, but leave you with inefficiently allocated points down the road. It's not really going to bother me if they never allow any kind of reallocation of skill points :)
But yeah I do want to emphasize that I agree that attributes that you may want to change later, and things like race, especially if ones are added down the line, I see just reason to allow to be changed.
Skills on the other hand, since you have no limit, and can train them all eventually, I see no motive at all on allowing re-allocation through any means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, the same cost problem occurs if you allow a character to reallocate Attribute points, since they will directly impact the rate at which certain Skills get trained.
I would love to see an in-game method to gradually move them, though. Maybe skills like Strength Training, and such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, the same cost problem occurs if you allow a character to reallocate Attribute points, since they will directly impact the rate at which certain Skills get trained.
I would love to see an in-game method to gradually move them, though. Maybe skills like Strength Training, and such.
True, but to some extent I could sympathize with say yearly resets of them for people when they reach cap in their first archtype and want to start training a second etc... I think the issue in question is much less of a factor considering at least on the same class attributes stay equally useful or useful, while abilities on the other hand are greatly varied in value by level. Just like the sleep spell is considered godly and borderline OP at level 1... and pretty laughable at level 15
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, is there something about in-game mechanics to move your attributes that you don't like? It seems to me it might even be better overall in-game, since you might not have to maintain the same total point count, or work off the same point-buy base. It seems to me I should be able to set my attributes in Character Development (before I ever enter the game) based on spending points from a limited pool, with higher attributes costing significantly more points. Then, in-game, I should be able to focus my Skill Training on improving certain attributes. I could actually see totally open-ended attribute increases, where the only factor to consider is the amount of time it would take to get the next point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, is there something about in-game mechanics to move your attributes that you don't like? It seems to me it might even be better overall in-game, since you might not have to maintain the same total point count, or work off the same point-buy base. It seems to me I should be able to set my attributes in Character Development (before I ever enter the game) based on spending points from a limited pool, with higher attributes costing significantly more points. Then, in-game, I should be able to focus my Skill Training on improving certain attributes. I could actually see totally open-ended attribute increases, where the only factor to consider is the amount of time it would take to get the next point.
Well something just worries me a bit on unlimited power in all forms. I believe most of us agree that HP should stop going up at some point... but shouldn't con also? If damage from mellee is based on STR won't that also be a permanantly increasing damage total as well?
Overall I am opposed to infinitely increasing power level. Power generally falls into a few categories to me. Damage per attack, total HP/defense, etc... Areas where you clearly gain on one side while losing nothing on any other area. Increasing the time needed to keep it going, still causes huge issues in the long run, if the game is going to have a comperable survival time to say Eve, where it is going to be wanting occasional new players 8 years down the road.
I know in EVE they had the "attribute skills" that would allow you to improve your skills (and thus reduce the amount of time it took to train certain skills). Unfortunately, it basically forced characters to train their attributes up before actually training what they wanted to go into because of all the time that it saved.
I like the idea of magic items that provide permanent (consistent) enhancements to your ability scores, maybe granting training speed bonuses if the item became "attuned" to the wearer. However, I would avoid training skills that help you train skills faster. EVE eventually got rid of the attribute skills, refunded people the skill points they spent in those skills, and gave a bonus to skill training speed and I believe addition attribute points at character creation.
If PFO wants to reward characters with an attribute boost every 4 levels (like in Pathfinder), that would be different because it rewards players for advancing their characters in whatever area they want to advance in.
In response to the OP:
I think either an in game reincarnation spell for a random racial shift (provided the racial traits of a character are not ingrained in skill progression) or a "ritual of race change." None of this should occur out-of-game for money. Since a majority of player races are 1 HD, I don't think it would be too unreasonable to allow players to swap races, provided they can arrange it in game and pay for the services.
There should probably be a "cool down" to limit excessive race shifting, probably explained as magic feedback or the body of the player needing time to recover from such an intense biological shift.
With the addition of new player races after launch, I believe it is completely viable to allow access to such races, but I would suggest races that possess "monstrous hit die" are scaled down a bit to match their 1 HD brethren.
Alternatively, each race could have access to "paragon" skills that allow them to train up certain racial abilities beyond their starting benefits. This may avoid the pitfall of big differences in characters of different races at 1st level, with a deteriorating difference as characters advance. Unfortunately, this would infringe on the ability to shift races (as racial skills would remain the same or switch out with each use of reincarnation).
Maybe I'm over thinking this. *goes to get something to drink*
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I see how it's better to let people change their attributes however they want once per year. Assuming the standard attribute scores that max at 18, I was thinking in terms of it taking a year or more to go from 18 to 19, then double that for 19 to 20, all the way up. Yeah, it's "infinite" theoretically, but practically speaking, it's extremely unlikely anyone's going to ever even hit 24.
@Pheoran Armiez, you're absolutely right about the cost-benefit analysis that would cause people to train up their attributes first if the cost to train the attributes was less than the cost saved. I realize I wasn't clear, and I may also be totally unrealistic, but I was thinking in terms of making the skill training cost as much if not more than you would save by having the higher attribute. There may be some point for lower attributes, around 11, where it might be marginally worthwhile to go ahead and raise it to 13 before training your actual skills, but I was not thinking in those terms.
What I really had in mind was a progression that only really became attractive after you had your character developed the way you wanted them, as a skill point sink that you could set and forget forever after.
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Goblinworks Founder
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There's nothing funny about furry races. They RUIN online rpg's, especially MMOs.I want kitty cat race >.<
Weakness
Yarn - dazed for 1d4 rounds batting it around.Furball
A spit attack that grosses out those who see it happen, causing them to be dazed for 1d4+1/lvl rounds as they try not to throw up. Once used you have to wait another 5 rounds to build up for another shot.
Now this I can not agree with, I don't see how they Ruin games. All they are, are characters just like a halfline, just like a dwarf. But seeing as I was kidding; yes I don't see them being a choose able race, but races you can at least meet somewhere in game would be fine.
D&D Rakshasa's being the best Furry race ever made; and they never ruined that game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's nothing funny about furry races. They RUIN online rpg's, especially MMOs.I want kitty cat race >.<
Weakness
Yarn - dazed for 1d4 rounds batting it around.Furball
A spit attack that grosses out those who see it happen, causing them to be dazed for 1d4+1/lvl rounds as they try not to throw up. Once used you have to wait another 5 rounds to build up for another shot.Now this I can not agree with, I don't see how they Ruin games. All they are, are characters just like a halfline, just like a dwarf. But seeing as I was kidding; yes I don't see them being a choose able race, but races you can at least meet somewhere in game would be fine.
D&D Rakshasa's being the best Furry race ever made; and they never ruined that game.
I believe the better term would be, furry races draw the people that are very good at making people around them very uncomfortable. Obviously in tabletop where you have 5 people which are specifically chosen to be likeminded with eachother, that risk is non-existant...
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Goblinworks Founder
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I believe the better term would be, furry races draw the people that are very good at making people around them very uncomfortable. Obviously in tabletop where you have 5 people which are specifically chosen to be likeminded with eachother, that risk is non-existant...
Hmm can't say I've seen or had that happen to me or seen others mention (well some can't say everyone has never mentioned it). Oh you can still be creeped out by some people playing the part a little to much; I'll agree to that, but then again that can be with any race or class that someone can give you that creep factor.
So I can't say furry is the main thing here for creep factor when you have some guys who play females... and play them rather well at times.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes for race/class changes. I want the super easy road. I will make a half orc barbarian and tear up the wilderness until level 10 or so. Then I'll swap to a rogue and kill you all. Then I can change my name and you will never know it was me who did it !! Or better than that, I will ninja all the good loot first, then change every thing about my toon so you dont know me.
Screw all that. Make what you want and train it, and be stuck with it. Deal with the consequences of your actions. They only changes that should be allowed is if they come out with a new class or race. Other than that, be stuck with your race, name and skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There used to be one role-playing server for NWN that had above ground race / underdark race fighting against each other. If you start as ground race, it is easier due to most factions are friendly. Underdark factions, however, are constantly competing against each other (I remember my kobold wandered around killing wild buffalo for food. When I walked close to the drow city, two demonflesh golem guard pop up and killed me). An Underdark player may not be hostile to one from another Underdark faction, but their npcs do.
If monsters characters are going to be available, maybe there should be some similar penalties so the human centric cities won't be flooded with monster players?
That wasn't nwnonline.net was it with a separate starting location for drow?
Subraces are a nice touch too. Hope to see them.
