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However, AFAIK, the summoned creature is flat-footed until it acts.
However, AFAIK, the summoned creature is flat-footed until it acts.
Usually this won't matter as the summoned creature acts as soon as the summoning is complete.
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However, AFAIK, the summoned creature is flat-footed until it acts.
The creature acts the instant it is summoned, so this is irrelevant.
If the enemy is already in combat and has acted, they are not flat-footed.
Not necessarily true. You can be flat-footed for reasons other than having already acted in combat, such as being unaware of that attacker.
However, I would probably rule that since they were aware of combat and the summoned creature (presumably) was summoned in plain view, they are both aware of the target and in combat mode and thus are not flat-footed.
Summoned creatures are treated just as if the caster used some other spell. They act on the caster's initiative.
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...its like an invisible creature suddenly pops into existence in that spot...
I usually describe effects that inform all concerned about the pending arrival of a summoned creature. Arcane circles or shafts of light appearing on the floor, a change in air pressure, or other things. I try to keep it consistent based on spell type. Demons usually emerge from a fissure in the ground, regardless of how improbable that is, for example.
Of course this is my take on the summoning school, the rules are silent on the matter.
However, AFAIK, the summoned creature is flat-footed until it acts.The creature acts the instant it is summoned, so this is irrelevant.
This may be irrelevant in most combat situations, but a Rogue wielding a ranged weapon could ready his action to attack the summoned creature as soon as it appears, thus attacking the creature while it's still flat-footed and adding his sneak attack damage to his damage roll. I would 100% allow this in my game, Rogues need all the love they can get.
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You can be flat-footed for reasons other than having already acted in combat, such as being unaware of that attacker.
You mean denied dex, not flat-footed, right?
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You can be flat-footed for reasons other than having already acted in combat, such as being unaware of that attacker.You mean denied dex, not flat-footed, right?
Hmm... I could swear that being entirely unaware of the opponent was still flat-footed, but I cannot find a citation for that. I assume you are, however, otherwise you could use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening.
EDIT: Or, more accurately, use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening that were being done by creatures you were aware were present.
I assume you are, however, otherwise you could use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening.
EDIT: Or, more accurately, use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening that were being done by creatures you were aware were present.
Like what?
I assume you are, however, otherwise you could use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening.
EDIT: Or, more accurately, use immediate actions to interrupt things you weren't aware were happening that were being done by creatures you were aware were present.
Like what?
There was a feat in Drow of the Underdark (3.5) that allowed you to cast Mirror Image as an immediate action. Thus, if an invisible creature attacks you in the middle of a fight, you could, by RAW, use an immediate action to protect yourself. This is why I use a houserule in my game that states that denied dex = flat-footed. I don't know if there's anything like this in Pathfinder.
There was a feat in Drow of the Underdarkk (3.5) that allowed you to cast Mirror Image as an immediate action. Thus, if an invisible creature attacks you in the middle of a fight, you could, by RAW, use an immediate action to protect yourself.
Except if it's still before your first regular turn in the initiative order, then even if you use an immediate action (or a free action out of turn) you're still flat-footed.
And if it's not, then you weren't flat-footed anyway, you were denied dex, which doesn't change even if you use an immediate action.
This is why I use a houserule in my game that states that denied dex = flat-footed.
So if a rogue feints, then uses an untrained bull rush, the target doesn't get an AoO because he's flat-footed rather than just denied dex to AC?
What prevents the target from using a free action out of turn to speak, thus having acted, and thus no longer being flat-footed since it's after his first regular turn in the initiative order?
It seems to me that it makes much more sense to use denied dex for these things.
If you suspected someone was summoning a creature, and you had an action, I think you could ready an action to attack the summoned creature when it appears. This might be the only situation where you could catch a summoned creature flat footed.
Example : You have fought this wizard before, and he likes to summon infernal creatures. You beat his initiative, but can't get to him. You move 30 feet, and then ready an action to attack any summoned creatures. The wizard summons an infernal creature, and it appears next to you. Your readied action kicks in, and you attack it. Since it hasn't had a chance to go yet, it's still flat footed, thus if you were a rogue, you'd get sneak attack on it.
There was a feat in Drow of the Underdarkk (3.5) that allowed you to cast Mirror Image as an immediate action. Thus, if an invisible creature attacks you in the middle of a fight, you could, by RAW, use an immediate action to protect yourself.(1) Except if it's still before your first regular turn in the initiative order, then even if you use an immediate action (or a free action out of turn) you're still flat-footed.
(2) And if it's not, then you weren't flat-footed anyway, you were denied dex, which doesn't change even if you use an immediate action.
This is why I use a houserule in my game that states that denied dex = flat-footed.(3) So if a rogue feints, then uses an untrained bull rush, the target doesn't get an AoO because he's flat-footed rather than just denied dex to AC?
(4) What prevents the target from using a free action out of turn to speak, thus having acted, and thus no longer being flat-footed since it's after his first regular turn in the initiative order?
It seems to me that it makes much more sense to use denied dex for these things.
(1) I thought that there was a rule that prevented you from using immediate action while flat-footed, but looking for it now, I can't find anything, so I may be wrong. I think I will use a houserule because immediate actions in my game are not uncommon.
(2) Agreed. Still, you can "protect" yourself from an attack you were not aware of if you cast a defensive spell on yourself as an immediate action. This is the specific thing I want to prevent from happening in my games.
(3) Good point, I didn't think about that. On the other hand, this doesn't seem very game breaking anyway. You're still missing the nice bonus provided by the Bull Rush feats chain.
(4) My houserule is more along the line of: "if you're denied your dex bonus against an attack, you're also flat-footed against this same specific attack, until the attack is resolved". Maybe I'm missing something and maybe this houserule could begets other problems, but right now it's working quite well in my ongoing campaing.
Wow- excellent discussion and appreciate all the feedback. I guess I was always under the impression that while summoning a monster is a full round action for a wizard (not considering summoners or clerics with the Sacred Summoning feat), the player actually selects the point of appearance of the creature on the round that it arrives -- not when they begin casting the spell.
Outside of Hecknoshows thematic indication (shafts of sunlight, cracking earth, etc. -- which I love and think will answer/resolve the question in my mind) it would seem like the creature would appear out of thin air (similar to a creature attacking from a state of invisibility) and subsequently catch the intended target off guard.
You're right Dammerung, the player actually selects the point of appearance of the creature on the round that it arrives. On the other hand, the summoned creature appears out of thin air (or with a puff of smoke) and then attack, which is not the same thing as appearing while attacking. When you think about it, the summoned creature would be as much confused as anyone on the battlefield by its sudden appearance. In terms of game balance, summoning spells are already very powerful and they really don't need a "surprise attack" bonus.
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(1) I thought that there was a rule that prevented you from using immediate action while flat-footed, but looking for it now, I can't find anything, so I may be wrong. I think I will use a houserule because immediate actions in my game are not uncommon.
There is. It's the last line under the Immediate Action description in the combat chapter.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Emphasis mine.
As for your point about flat-footed==denied dexterity, I've been running with that rule for a while now which may explain my confusion about being unaware of a *particular* attacker making you flat-footed to them.