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Angels appear pretty similar in all practical regards, and in fact better at most practical events. Planetars require secret information on the motions of evil. Ok, so most parties happen to fight
evil. "Hey, Angel. Here's this secret evil we found. Now kill it for us." RAW, this works for it. The angel is appeased by the information, which is information the party already has by just being the party, and does a job it wants to do anyway, for the party. Even if the Angel somehow refuses, it is a being of good and is very unlikely to become violent for no reason. If summoned and not offered the best sacrifice, it would likely just leave. It's good, after all. If a Paladin is offered 50 gold to get a macguffin, it doesn't kill the offerer. It probably does the task anyway. Buteat the very least, he just leaves.
Now do this with a Glabrezu. First, Demons want to kill you. To simply get it to the state angels naturally are, of mild indifference, you need to feed it a huge secret about lawful or good society, something most adventuring parties probably don't have need to learn or investigate. It may come up, but it's less common that finding evil to vanquish. Ok, so your bargaining chip is already more rare. Then, you have to get it to agree to fight for you, yadda yadda. It still may be vengeful and whatever. It's late, I'm tired.
Point is, demons have HUGE drawbacks, high costs of labor, and always want to kill you.
Angels are generally NOT going to want to kill you, and ask for things as sacrifices you probably want to do anyway. Like, breaking the evil macguffin on telling them secrets you already know, that also benefit you.
So, why would anyone summon the less predictable, less useful, and more expensive demons in any practical situation? What about a neutral person? Why would even they be more inclined to summon an angel than have both options be just about even?
I feel this should be strongly fixed, to make binding demons more practical, or making binding angels more dangerous...somehow. Maybe make it easier to control demons through force, such as higher benefits from anathematic substances, thereby being able to nullify their aggressive behaviour?
I don't think a demon would try to kill you without adequate motivation, unless you seem like really easy prey. Typically magic users are as strong as or stronger than whatever they can call, and a monster that dies in a calling spell (rather than a summoning spell) dies for reals. So there would be a high risk for a demon to just attack his summoner, who likely has his party members there to protect him. It would be a one-sided slaughter.
If it was particularly petty, or you were particularly offensive to it, it might remember your name, in case you're ever in its neighborhood, and it has some pals around. Pals what break kneecaps. Then eat them.
Angels are probably busy doing other things. It can't solve every case of evil in the world, it probably has a mission it was doing before being called. You need to convince it that your mission is worth its time.
Short answer? Foreplay.
Longer answer? Demonic whim can be appealed-to, especially when something matches their nature. Angels, being naturally more noble and honorable, would be less inclined to intervene directly, unless properly asked and propositioned. Even under those circumstances, most angels have tasks and/or duties they are assigned to handle, so there's not exactly blatant amounts of free time to cast about. There's also the fact that one normally does not want something 'good' for any of the purposes for which one would bind a demon in the first place.
Also keep in mind that angels have morals. Occasionally morals can get in the way. That angel might not want to steal away that macguffin or kill that chaotic neutral psycho who keeps rallying up the trolls. She might insist that you negotiate with him.
Now a demon being encouraged to mayhem, slaughter, and steal well that is just his kind of afternoon now isn't it. You'll probably get a discount. Corrupt town official that hasn't quite swung over to evil yet is fair game. Just keep an eye on him and make sure he doesn't nip off with an orphan or two.
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A good-aligned Party might need the knowledge of a Demon or other Evil Outsider, something that Church-sanctioned libraries and other repositories of knowledge could have had culled from their shelves.
Summoning and binding an Evil Outsider to fight other Evils is also disturbingly effective, while morally, spiritually and physically dangerous, also prevents an Angel or otherwise 'Good' Outsider from suffering during Combat. A Hezrou might make an unusual ally against a Blue Dragon, but then again Good-Aligned PCs aren't likely going to be too concerned about the Demon's welfare, and it's immunity to Electricity, potent Spell Resistance and repulsive special abilities give it the advantage against the Dragon.
Besides, when's the last time you saw an Army of Darkness armed with Holy Weapons?
It's also possible, however impractical, to bind Demons and then seal them away. An order of Wizards and Clerics dedicated to the study of, and destruction of, Devils, Demons and Daemons, would be eager to acquire summoning devices and formulae to refine and perfect their imprisoning techniques.
Evil Outsiders also tend to be mercenary to the extreme. If you can pay enough, they'll do just about anything you want. Good Outsiders tend to be far less so, and often will be petulantly moralistic and disturbingly matyr-happy in the face of outright desperation because they are 'free' of the Wheel of Fate most Mortals are bound to and feel a death serving the Good Gods is worthwhile, wherein an Evil Outsider is just as concerned with their own skin as the wills of the Evil Gods, if not more so.
Treading off into the quagmire of alignment even further here, but most Good-Aligned Churchs and Nations wouldn't bat an eyelid at a potential Magical Weapon maker testing out his Bane enchantment on Evil Outsiders, but would be outraged if he tried it out on Good Outsiders, standing agreements and contracts aside.
Evil is, as I stated before, generally self-interested to the extreme. An Angel or other Good Outsider would more often than not die rather than expose a crucial secret to an enemy. A Demon or other Evil Outsider would divulge the information in a heartbeat to avoid being imprisoned or otherwise trapped in a vulnerable state, let alone being 'killed'.
It's very possible that binding an angel might cause their good allies to show up on your doorstep, wondering why you are committing blasphemy.
I don't think evil has the same "I got your back" mentality.
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Courting disaster can be a lot of fun though
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A good aligned creature should never make a deal with a devil or demon. That said, a neutral one might have good uses for a Chaotic Evil outsider that revels in death, torture, and destruction. As some posters have noted earlier, a demon has fewer limitations on what its willing to do once you have quelled it.
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Because Succubi offer services you can't get anywhere else, duh.
...
I am of course referring to Profane Gift, and nothing else.
Profane Gift is underpowered...
For player characters, one of the big downsides in calling angels, is that when they try (and they will) to take over your mission after deciding it's worth their time, you won't be able to get rid of them or convince them you're more competent than them to hold the leading role (barring chosen one shenanigans, and even then that's not sure).
When a demon tries to double-cross you, you've got no moral conflict in solving the problem the way PCs do.
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Angels appear pretty similar in all practical regards, and in fact better at most practical events. Planetars require secret information on the motions of evil. Ok, so most parties happen to fight
evil. "Hey, Angel. Here's this secret evil we found. Now kill it for us." RAW, this works for it. The angel is appeased by the information, which is information the party already has by just being the party, and does a job it wants to do anyway, for the party. Even if the Angel somehow refuses, it is a being of good and is very unlikely to become violent for no reason. If summoned and not offered the best sacrifice, it would likely just leave. It's good, after all. If a Paladin is offered 50 gold to get a macguffin, it doesn't kill the offerer. It probably does the task anyway. Buteat the very least, he just leaves.Now do this with a Glabrezu. First, Demons want to kill you. To simply get it to the state angels naturally are, of mild indifference, you need to feed it a huge secret about lawful or good society, something most adventuring parties probably don't have need to learn or investigate. It may come up, but it's less common that finding evil to vanquish. Ok, so your bargaining chip is already more rare. Then, you have to get it to agree to fight for you, yadda yadda. It still may be vengeful and whatever. It's late, I'm tired.
Point is, demons have HUGE drawbacks, high costs of labor, and always want to kill you.
You're assuming that the party is making peaceful contact with them. In short, you're assuming that the angels begin at friendly or at least indifferent, while demons start hostile. That's entirely understandable, and a good reason to call angels. However, willigness to aid you is not an issue with binding spells. You are subjecting them to your will, and they cannot break free of your will if you are a good conjurer.
When binding demons, it is about authority. It is about you crushing them on that opposed Charisma check, and quite frankly, a wizard can do it, and do it in spades.
I had a tiefling conjurerer who was borderline evil for a while before becoming good. This is a rundown of how she absolutely dominated a succubus to be her personal b+!#&-minion, despite having a low Charisma and the succubus having a frighteningly high Charisma.
The wizard is now has +4 Charisma over whatever she had before (so at least a +0).
The succubus is now -18 Charisma, and an additional -6 to all ability checks. That brings the succubus' Charisma modifier from +8 to -6.
At this point, the Wizard could continue repeating her requests each day until the succubus broke down and submits by failing her check. Even if the demands are incredibly unfair (+6 on the opposed roll for the succubus), the succubus is still screwed. Upon admitting to serve, she was made to give her name to the wizard, and thus became the wizard's own personal demon minion, who could be called on regularly.
The fact the demon comes in hostile means nothing to a wizard. It is about authority, and force of will. It is a magical compulsion that cannot be broken. That's why it's called binding. You could use it to meet an angel on friendly terms, or you could use it force a demon to do what you want it to do, with no way to reprimand you (because the moment its service is complete, it is shunted back to the abyss plane).
So, why would anyone summon the less predictable, less useful, and more expensive demons in any practical situation? What about a neutral person? Why would even they be more inclined to summon an angel than have both options be just about even?
Depends. If you are a good guy, then you will prefer to bind demons. Sound crazy? It's not. Look at where the demon binding trope comes from. King Solomon, who built the holy temple, with a magical ring/seal and wisdom given to him by God, who used this divine authority to force demons to build the temple against their will. King Solomon was considered the wisest king, and definitely a good guy, by the stories.
So why would you want to bind demons being a good guy again? Well, because demons are doing nothing better, and you also don't want to put angels in danger. Let's say you want to bind a monster to fight for you. Say you're going to be fighting some really evil big-bad guy. Bind a demon. It's a called creature (not summoned, it's actually here) so if it is killed it will die. If it is hurt, it is hurt. If you bind a demon and it is killed in action, no sweat, that's one less demon spreading misery and destruction. You just tipped the cosmic scale a little in favor of the good guys.
Turning evil against itself is also a very effective strategy. Just like in media where the good guys use badguy #1 against badguy #2, D&D rewards players for turning evil against evil. Most angels have weaknesses to the kinds of weapons that evil people use (DR X/evil is their most common DR type), are vulnerable to spells that evil people cast (blasphemy or dispel good screws up some holy outsiders), and so forth.
Demons? Not so much. They have DR X/Good. If an evil dude tries to pick up a holy weapon, it inflicts negative levels on them, so how many evil dudes are wielding holy weapons? Evil clerics can't even cast dispel evil or holy smite or align weapon (good), so what are they going to do to crush your minion?
Binding demons is incredibly practical, and effective. Binding angels? Well that's dangerous if you're a bad guy. Angels are pretty badass in D&D/PF and will club you good. Unfortunately for angels, they are just as vulnerable to the kind of binding, and can be made to do things against their will.
Truly, it is a terrible day that an angel is bound and turned against the forces of good. It's like when Jafar has control over Genie in Aladdin, except worse. In fact, in D&D, Jafar could have had the otherwise friendly, loving, morally upright Genie murder Aladdin, and there would have been nothing Genie could have done about it. Fortunately, in that story, Genies can't kill people. :P
Awesome stuff.
Sir, I am taking notes. That is a great breakdown on how to 'deal' with outsiders :)
Thanks for the replies. The most common answer is one I realized just a few minutes after posting- Angels likely wouldn't be willing to kill neutral or misguided good for you. They are only tools against evil. Even then, they still may refuse. However, assuming you are against evil, it is still almost always easier to go with the angel because the angel won't murder you for fun, and generally asks for things you already have. Again, assuming a neutral party of relevant level characters. To get a Solar, you have to bring a powerful evil item to destroy. I've dealt with several such macguffins, having to bring them to Mount Doom and all that, and simply handing them over to an angel gets rid of the item's corrupting power AND gets you an angel pal for a while. You basically complete your quest without doing the work, and actually gain a boon from it. You get overwhelming help for taking the easy way out of a quest.
Even then, if the angel still refuses, it goes home. With a demon, you have to give up something beneficial, and then it may still want to kill you.
So what if all effects for charisma and will saves for the ritual worked one and a half times to twice as effectively on evil creatures? This would make it a risk versus reward thing. Essentially, Angels, Archons and Agathions will generally either work for you or not, and due to being good, have a higher "freedom" sense. They can escape from the binding more easily, and simply go home when they do. Demons, Devils and Daemons, on the other hand, are evil and therefore prone to enslavement and rage. They are easier to bind with magic, but if they break their bonds, they will attempt to murder you where you stand.
This would promote a risk management situation, in which angels are less likely to work for you, and have moral compunctions in the first place, but simply leave if they want to. Demons are more likely to be forced to work for you, and do whatever you want if they do, but if they break free they eat your soul.
Also as others have said it's better to send a demon on dangerous work. No one care if it dies in action.
A friend of mine was in a group of lawful good characters who had a hobby of calling demons just so they could kill them.
Erm... I dont see how ripping creatures you can't actually prove have done anything evil from their homes just so you can murder them in cold blood is either Lawful or Good, myself.
I mean, sure they're dangerous on the Prime Material, but if they're just chilling in their home? With no way to threaten anyone unless empowered to do so by some Wizard looking for servants?
Hmm...
Not exalted to be sure, but lawful d-bag certainly :P
Another factor is their willingness to accept jobs they disagree with if they think there will be a chance to "misinterpret" the deal. A LG outsider is probably going to stick to the bargain, so if they don't like the bargain, they won't accept. A LE/CE outsider might accept a bargain if they feel there will be an opportunity to corrupt it, or it gives them a chance to do their own thing briefly on the prime material plane.
I played a succubus once who was permanently bound to a ring of shield other. About 2-3 times a session I was trying to convince the wearer of the ring that session to send me on errands, and adjust the parameters so that I'd have time/opportunity to cause mischief.
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I was referring to "exalted" as it was described in the "Book of Exalted Deeds" (my favorite 3.x book). That is, those that were so "good" that they had compassion even for the most evil of creatures. It even introduced the "sanctified" template for evil creatures that had been shown the way of good.
@ Ashiel-
A question on the rules there. When demons agree to your terms (not so much with devils, as they are lawful), what is your guarantee that they will actually do as you command?
You say the Succubus gave you her truename, which is powerful indeed. But would a demon of trickery and deceit not try to give you a fake one? Do a whole overacted "By the powers of the abyss, thou hast bested me!" and keel over as you test out the new name, only to destroy you at the next opportunity.
I like to imagine that a sort of contract is written up verbally which cannot be easily broken. Maybe even words of power crackle around those involved, creating erasing binding terms and conditions in truespeach. However, are there any rules that state this, or any rules that state how the "Fine I'll do it" and subsequent equivalent of a handshake works?
@ Ashiel-
A question on the rules there. When demons agree to your terms (not so much with devils, as they are lawful), what is your guarantee that they will actually do as you command?
The binding spell itself serves this purpose. If it agrees to your serve, its bound by the spell. This could be slightly more explicit, but thats definately the intent.
Word your agreements carefully though, the creature isn't bound beyond that.
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@ Ashiel-
A question on the rules there. When demons agree to your terms (not so much with devils, as they are lawful), what is your guarantee that they will actually do as you command?
Because they have no other choice than to do so. Once they have agreed to your terms and either submitted willingly or failed the opposed Charisma check, they stop having a choice. This is not negotiations, this is binding. This is not about seeing if the demon wants to help you build your holy temple, this is about making them build your holy temple. It has to do what it is told.
You say the Succubus gave you her truename, which is powerful indeed. But would a demon of trickery and deceit not try to give you a fake one? Do a whole overacted "By the powers of the abyss, thou hast bested me!" and keel over as you test out the new name, only to destroy you at the next opportunity.
Because you know if you succeed on your Charisma check. If the demon agrees, then it's bound to serve. If it is lying, then it hasn't agreed and thus is not freed from the binding. The demon cannot give you a fake one, because she is bound to do so. She has been compelled to follow your orders. Not because she wants to, but because she has been bound by magic to do so, and there's not a darn thing she can do about it.
The demon might even hate you in an extreme way for doing it, though it's probably actually used to creatures stronger than it throwing their weight around (because by the time you can bind a particular type of demon, I promise you are stronger than it is).
Why do you think outsiders don't just agree to anything and then try to kill the binder after they are released from the circle? Because they can't. If the wizard asks that you serve it loyally for 2 weeks, it has to serve you loyally for 2 weeks. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I like to imagine that a sort of contract is written up verbally which cannot be easily broken. Maybe even words of power crackle around those involved, creating erasing binding terms and conditions in truespeach. However, are there any rules that state this, or any rules that state how the "Fine I'll do it" and subsequent equivalent of a handshake works?
If you wanted to be particularly peculiar about it, you could totally provide a written contract. That works just fine, it does. However, you can be a chaotic madman and still bind them just find, because it is a test of will between you and the outsider in question.
This is not negotiations. If you wanted to negotiate, then you can happily use Diplomacy, Bluff, and so forth to work out your negotiations. Might even get the Demon to legitimately like and want to help you if you're a silver tongued devil (mind you, the DC to turn your average succubus from hostile to indifferent is about DC 43, so good luck with that).
Keep in mind, all of this applies to NPCs too. There's nothing stopping your crazed Chaotic Evil wizard or sorcerer from just binding all kinds of outsiders, from angels to demons to elementals. Imagine the sick joy that the dirty bastard would get from crushing the will of a pure angel beneath his heel, and making them serve him in his dark machinations and genocide? The angel may even hope that the PCs will kill it to stop it, despite the fact it cannot easily return to life non-outsiders.
Can you imagine an encounter like that?
Bound Astral Deva: "Run! If you do not run, I have no choice but to destroy you!"
Party: "We can't turn back now! We have to get into the chamber ahead, and stop that vile wizard!"
Bound Astral Deva: "Then I have no choice...bring your strongest arms to bear good warriors, and free me from this hell!"
Awesome stuff.Sir, I am taking notes. That is a great breakdown on how to 'deal' with outsiders :)
Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks.
The trouble I still have here is the bargaining thing. It seems there are two methods, but it also seems like the demons, devils or daemons have some form of control on their own. Otherwise, why bargain with them at all if you can just give them indian burns until they say uncle?
Of course, there could be a homebrew ruling made in the future that if you bargain with them, they become much less likely to hunt you down after the contract ends, and that if you force them into service they tend to spend every free waking moment seeking revenge with any allies they can muster up. Basically, whether you make a dangerous ally or a rebelious slave. It kind of goes without saying, but some standardization wouldn't be a bad thing.
Then again, both things could be effective. Offer them a deal, if they refuse, hurt them until it seems like a better deal. Basically, if you agree, I will stop cursing you and you'll also get that sandwich.
Also, this brings up the question about things like Slippery Mind and that ability whose name I forget that can fool others into believing you are under a charm or compulsion when you're actually not. Are demons/devils/daemons able to use things like this in regards to the "compulsion" of a bound contract?
1. For laughs.
2. To impress/intimidate people.
3. Revenge against the demon.
4. Succubus.
Profane Gift is underpowered...A point was missed...
Mine ? Maybe I should have added a smiley.
why bargain with them at all if you can just give them indian burns until they say uncle?
Because sometimes the demon has a patron that cares, or maybe you chose some kind of outsider you have sympathies for.
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The trouble I still have here is the bargaining thing. It seems there are two methods, but it also seems like the demons, devils or daemons have some form of control on their own. Otherwise, why bargain with them at all if you can just give them indian burns until they say uncle?
Because bargaining makes it easier. It's a lot easier to force someone to do something when they actually want to do so. In the example I gave, the succubus is getting a +6 to her Charisma modifier due to basically being given a raw deal, which improves her will to be defiant. It doesn't matter much for her, because she is still under the weight of about -14 to her result more than normal. The +6 just makes it -8 instead.
But if it was like "Hey, I want you to slaughter some folks for me, Mr. Glabrezu. You serve me for a week, and we'll slaughter a village, 'cause I'm an evil wizard like that", then the critter is likely going to have a lower chance to resist you. Creatures are assigned a value between +0 and +6 to resist the caster's offer, depending on how much it sucks for them.
Making it suck less for them, means it being easier to get them to submit. Look at it like this. If I go out, kidnap you, and put magic shackles on you that make you do what I want you to do, you're likely going to be resistant. If I, however, am making it kind of a sweet deal for you, then you are going to be less resistant. Sure, being a slave can suck, but being a slave that lives in a mansion, drives a Ferrari, and hangs out with cute girls on long moonlit evenings? Ok, being a slave doesn't sound quite as bad anymore, so it's more of a general desire for your own personal freedom, rather than being spurred by getting a raw deal.
Of course, there could be a homebrew ruling made in the future that if you bargain with them, they become much less likely to hunt you down after the contract ends, and that if you force them into service they tend to spend every free waking moment seeking revenge with any allies they can muster up. Basically, whether you make a dangerous ally or a rebelious slave. It kind of goes without saying, but some standardization wouldn't be a bad thing.
That's not actually homebrew, so much as it is unlikely. Most can't go to the material plane under their own power to pick a fight with you. And even if they could, would they really want to? You demonstrated that you were more powerful than them by binding them into your service the first time. Hell, they could have vaporized you while you were inside the circle with literally nothing you could have done except die a nearly un-resurrectable death. Do you really want to try and fight that guy?
Maybe. But you're right, having them serving you because they want to serve you is far, far better all around than just because they have to. That tiefling conjurer I mentioned in my former post? Yeah, that succubus and her eventually were allies in a more tangible sense. Turns out that despite the display of obvious dominance to get the succubus to submit, the conjurer was actually a much better master than the jerks the succubus normally had to answer to. The succubus got to create chaos and havoc within the ranks of the evil brotherhood of wizards the conjurer was opposed to, and the conjurer actually treated the succubus well.
Eventually, the succubus actually revealed a slight bit of loyalty towards the conjurer, because when the Conjurer was beginning to have a crisis of identity, she offered to let the succubus have her freedom. The succubus, in a round about way, said no. Perhaps it was because the succubus had grown attached to someone more powerful than it who treated it like it was worth something. Maybe the succubus was having too much fun. Who knows...
Then again, both things could be effective. Offer them a deal, if they refuse, hurt them until it seems like a better deal. Basically, if you agree, I will stop cursing you and you'll also get that sandwich.
Pretty much this.
Also, this brings up the question about things like Slippery Mind and that ability whose name I forget that can fool others into believing you are under a charm or compulsion when you're actually not. Are demons/devils/daemons able to use things like this in regards to the "compulsion" of a bound contract?
No, because this isn't a mind-affecting effect. Think of it more like geas/quest. It's not about mind control. It's something...more. From a mechanical standpoint, no, because there is no mind-affecting enchantment or similar going on here, so slippery mind can do nothing to help them.
The first bits seem summed up well.
As for Quest/Geas, they are mind-effecting abilities. The exact mechanics of binding aren't really brought up. However, it seems that it is a form of powerful compulsion. Agreeing to it (signing the contract) makes the target willing and it forgoes it's save, which I'm assuming is more or less binary in this instance. If it doesn't agree to sign, it can't be affected. If it does, it automatially is.
Besides that, this would work well with the normal "trickster" mentality of many demons and devils. Actually, I forget which ones, but I'm pretty sure I read under some stat blocks that some outsiders will specifically pretend to be bound, only to destroy their would-be binders once they are free from the anathematic barrier stuff.
The first bits seem summed up well.
As for Quest/Geas, they are mind-effecting abilities. The exact mechanics of binding aren't really brought up. However, it seems that it is a form of powerful compulsion. Agreeing to it (signing the contract) makes the target willing and it forgoes it's save, which I'm assuming is more or less binary in this instance. If it doesn't agree to sign, it can't be affected. If it does, it automatially is.
Besides that, this would work well with the normal "trickster" mentality of many demons and devils. Actually, I forget which ones, but I'm pretty sure I read under some stat blocks that some outsiders will specifically pretend to be bound, only to destroy their would-be binders once they are free from the anathematic barrier stuff.
Sorry, my bad. I forgot geas/quest was mind affecting. I meant it wasn't an enchantment/will save, so slippery mind doesn't help at all. It's purely an opposed will thing.
As for the stat blocks, that is writers not knowing the rules for the game they are writing for. A bound outsider is either bound or it isn't. There's no saving throw.
On a side note, Slippery mind just allows you an extra save against enchantments and such. If they make the save, the caster still knows that they made their save. It doesn't allow them to pretend that they are under the effects, because the caster will know.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
The exception to the above is illusions, which you specifically notice nothing is amiss if you fail the saving throw, as per the illusion magic rules.
Enchantments spells are also really bad. Charm person can be used to force people to do anything that's not suicidal. "Kill your children." - "B-But my love..." *opposed Charisma check* "Let me get my knife..."
This is an explanation from a homebrew campaign of mine and its a long story, so I'll spare the specifics of it.
One of my players accidentally got turned into a half demon. The demon part of his soul basically will take over at certain points kinda like an alter ego. This PC ended up dying and since hes already a demon (sorta) wound up in the abyss for his afterlife. The demon side then took over and decided that it liked it there and didn't wish to go back and so it refused to be resurrected. Then the party decides they don't much like that answer and takes it upon themselves to go on a side mission to make the demon obey. Long story short they bind it with the demand that it has to allow itself to be resurrected. It was all successful, but it wasn't easy and the price for the sacrifice was high.
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One reason to bind demons is that you can ruthlessly practical about it.
1. Summon a demon
2. say "serve me for caster lv days"
3. make opposed charisma check.
4. If you fail kill the demon and loot it
5. next day start over
This means you don't have to worry about them breaking the circle with their spell resistance during the night. Also the dead demon bodies piling up might give a modifier. This way even if you keep failing the charisma check you still get money and exp.
One reason to bind demons is that you can ruthlessly practical about it.
1. Summon a demon
2. say "serve me for caster lv days"
3. make opposed charisma check.
4. If you fail kill the demon and loot it
5. next day start overThis means you don't have to worry about them breaking the circle with their spell resistance during the night. Also the dead demon bodies piling up might give a modifier. This way even if you keep failing the charisma check you still get money and exp.
They can't break out of the circle due to spell resistance, if you properly made the circle. Just tossing that out there.
I personally wouldn’t be so cavalier when it comes to summoning outsiders, especially evil ones. While they are in many ways slaves under influence of your spell, they still retain a measure of free will. Even if it the binding’s successful, the smarter ones by their very nature are liable to twist and corrupt the meaning of your words or find technicalities around them.
Telling a demon to slaughter everyone inside village is all fine and well, but if you show up to see its handy work, then you’re fair game too. It also doesn’t preclude the demon from getting you in trouble, by telling the survivors huddled in the fields, that so-and-so the evil demonologist sent it to kill everyone "inside" the village.
The spell also says an outsider can always refuse an impossible or unreasonable command. So telling an Archon to go around killing paladins and burning down orphanages would go against it “raison d'etre” as a physical embodiment of lawful good.
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You do realize that just about everything that you can summon is weak enough that you could take it down with one spell?
For unlimited succubi orgies of course. -sarcasm-
Perhaps you want to climb the chain of power in cheliax and feel demonic dominant will aid in that effort?
@ Ashiel-
A question on the rules there. When demons agree to your terms (not so much with devils, as they are lawful), what is your guarantee that they will actually do as you command?
Because they have no other choice than to do so. Once they have agreed to your terms and either submitted willingly or failed the opposed Charisma check, they stop having a choice. This is not negotiations, this is binding. This is not about seeing if the demon wants to help you build your holy temple, this is about making them build your holy temple. It has to do what it is told.
You say the Succubus gave you her truename, which is powerful indeed. But would a demon of trickery and deceit not try to give you a fake one? Do a whole overacted "By the powers of the abyss, thou hast bested me!" and keel over as you test out the new name, only to destroy you at the next opportunity.Because you know if you succeed on your Charisma check. If the demon agrees, then it's bound to serve. If it is lying, then it hasn't agreed and thus is not freed from the binding. The demon cannot give you a fake one, because she is bound to do so. She has been compelled to follow your orders. Not because she wants to, but because she has been bound by magic to do so, and there's not a darn thing she can do about it.
The demon might even hate you in an extreme way for doing it, though it's probably actually used to creatures stronger than it throwing their weight around (because by the time you can bind a particular type of demon, I promise you are stronger than it is).
Why do you think outsiders don't just agree to anything and then try to kill the binder after they are released from the circle? Because they can't. If the wizard asks that you serve it loyally for 2 weeks, it has to serve you loyally for 2 weeks. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I like to imagine that a sort of contract is written up verbally which cannot be easily broken. Maybe even...
Though I agree with your argument, Ashiel, and have argued it myself before, I've yet to encounter a GM who runs it that way.
Instead, every GM I've ever played under or spoken with has treated it like wish, that is, a lose/lose spell.
If you call an angel it is too busy to help you, or worse, is incensed that you tried to bind it. Even if you force it to your will, it comes back with allies later.
If you call a devil or demon, than it will inevitably betray you, whether during its servitude or long after.
Most GMs I've encountered don't see the Charisma check as the final word on the matter. After all, it isn't a compulsion effect of any kind. Instead, it's giving the GM to carte blanche to mess with your character.
Thanks for the replies. The most common answer is one I realized just a few minutes after posting- Angels likely wouldn't be willing to kill neutral or misguided good for you. They are only tools against evil. Even then, they still may refuse. However, assuming you are against evil, it is still almost always easier to go with the angel because the angel won't murder you for fun, and generally asks for things you already have. Again, assuming a neutral party of relevant level characters. To get a Solar, you have to bring a powerful evil item to destroy. I've dealt with several such macguffins, having to bring them to Mount Doom and all that, and simply handing them over to an angel gets rid of the item's corrupting power AND gets you an angel pal for a while. You basically complete your quest without doing the work, and actually gain a boon from it. You get overwhelming help for taking the easy way out of a quest.
Even then, if the angel still refuses, it goes home. With a demon, you have to give up something beneficial, and then it may still want to kill you.
With some super-powerful evil, I'd be kind of (read: A LOT) worried about the One Ring effect -- i.e. the Solar accepts your request to take this ancient evil artifact off your hands...
...And then the solar succumbs to temptation, turning evil and now in possession of the ancient evil artifact.
Bad times, bad times.
You do realize that just about everything that you can summon is weak enough that you could take it down with one spell?
With Lesser Planer Binding and when it’s trapped in the circle, yes. But with regular Planar Binding you can easily summon a 12 HD Glabezu, which is more than capable of ripping a 13th level wizard in half in a single round. That’s to say nothing of the horrors the Greater Planar Binding can bring forth. And when its out of the circle, all bets may be off.
Considering these creatures are as a rule very smart, cunning, powerful and inherently evil, its not a good idea treating them like disposable hirelings.
Though I agree with your argument, Ashiel, and have argued it myself before, I've yet to encounter a GM who runs it that way.
Pleased to meet you, sir. ^-^
Instead, every GM I've ever played under or spoken with has treated it like wish, that is, a lose/lose spell.
I'm pretty sure not every DM does, 'cause I know I don't. Also, Wish isn't lose/lose. It has lots of pre-determined effects that never fail, and those are good things to compare to when trying to decide on stuff. :P
If you call an angel it is too busy to help you, or worse, is incensed that you tried to bind it. Even if you force it to your will, it comes back with allies later.
If you call a devil or demon, than it will inevitably betray you, whether during its servitude or long after.
I'd expect you to throw books at me, if I did this to ya.
Most GMs I've encountered don't see the Charisma check as the final word on the matter. After all, it isn't a compulsion effect of any kind. Instead, it's giving the GM to carte blanche to mess with your character.
GMs have enough options to challenge players without having to resort to trying to screw them over with their own abilities.
I agree, but that doesn't change that (aside from us) I have not encountered anyone who would run this spell in a manner I would deem fair.
I am fair. Now that does not mean you can keep calling the evil monster and treating him badly and not expect him to plot against you.
Say for example you summon demon X. He knows you are powerful, and you treat him well. The spell runs by RAW. Sure he will kill you if the opportunity presents itself, but its a demon. However other than some glaring weakness of strategy on your part* or really bad treatment towards the outsider, the RAW of the spell should work. You might even get circumstance modifiers if you keep calling him enough.
*If the player has a mental lapse I will at the least give the old GM "Are you sure?".
As for the wish spell it depends on the source of the wish, and what you wish for. Wish is not used to grant anything you ask for.
In the past I have just said "that wish won't be granted". I think it removes any chances of GM/player conflict that way.
If the wish came from a Glabrezu(spelling?) there is a strong chance it will cause something bad to happen. That does not mean the player won't benefit, but someone somewhere will suffer(higher than 90% chance), but if the PC is evil they may not care.
"Anything" was bolded because some player I have seen online take it far beyond what I consider to be reasonable.
I am fair. Now that does not mean you can keep calling the evil monster and treating him badly and not expect him to plot against you.
Say for example you summon demon X. He knows you are powerful, and you treat him well. The spell runs by RAW. Sure he will kill you if the opportunity presents itself, but its a demon. However other than some glaring weakness of strategy on your part* or really bad treatment towards the outsider, the RAW of the spell should work. You might even get circumstance modifiers if you keep calling him enough.*If the player has a mental lapse I will at the least give the old GM "Are you sure?".
As for the wish spell it depends on the source of the wish, and what you wish for. Wish is not used to grant anything you ask for.
In the past I have just said "that wish won't be granted". I think it removes any chances of GM/player conflict that way.
If the wish came from a Glabrezu(spelling?) there is a strong chance it will cause something bad to happen. That does not mean the player won't benefit, but someone somewhere will suffer(higher than 90% chance), but if the PC is evil they may not care."Anything" was bolded because some player I have seen online take it far beyond what I consider to be reasonable.
Honestly, it's been such a long time since any of my players or party members have tried to use wish or miracle for stuff outside of its default options that I can't recall the last time I had to make a judgment call on it.
I think that getting an idea as to how grand of an effect you are willing to allow would be a good idea for ad-hoc rulings. I think the given options that you have (such as replicating spells of X level or lower) are fair examples of how far it should be able to go. For example, if a player wanted to mimic a psionic power of X level or lower, I'd probably be fine with that. I might even be willing to let them have something odd, like be affected by a reversed-curse (like bestow curse but instead of stuff like -4 to all attacks, saves, and checks, +4 instead) until the spell was broken or countered by a suitable curse.
I think Wraithstrike sounds like a good GM, most every time I hear him on the boards. I even think it's reasonable to assume that if the summoner was just being a huge prick (and I mean more than just the prickery that is for binding them), the demon might try to figure out some way to get you back one day (unlikely, but they might want to). But since it's nearly effortless to rock the players' worlds if you're using the GM toolkit to even 30% of its potential, I think, I have no reason to try and subvert the PCs on it.
I mean, let's be fair. How many of we GMs that would try and screw our players over here would screw our NPCs over just as hard, when they were using bound critters?
Hi! I'm currently designing a Witch with focus on debuffs and planar binding spells.
My question is: As Greater Planar Binding states, the max HD available is 18. Is there any way to increase this HD for the planar binding spellss (like Malconvolker)?
Thanks!
Nope. I have already tried to find a way. Things with more than 18 HD fall into Balor category and higher, and that is reserved for the gate spell in PF.