My first Monk - Opinions please!


Advice

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Hey guys,

Some of you would have seen my previous thread, asking for advice on making a decent unarmed fighter.

Anyway, rather than going with my original idea and making a BAM (Barbarian Monk), I decided to go all out on the Monk and go with the Martial Artist Archetype from Ultimate Combat.

I'm not entirely sure on the rules of pinning, but I'm guessing it's when you're grappling an opponent against something, or sitting on top of them when grappling them on the floor.

Baring that in mind, I decided to go with an Unarmed, trip grappler.

The concept for my character was a guy called Kaze, from an Animé called Gantz. This guy.

I haven't ever used a Monk before, so the concept is still a little odd to me. Although, this guy follows his own ideals, isn't lawful in any way, has no ki pool and just wants to be the most badass fighter in existence.

He constantly craves a challenge and loves to fight with his bare hands, using as many techniques as possible.

Anyway, on with the build:
Class: Martial Artist (Monk)
Name: Kaze
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Level: 1

HP: 10
AC: 13
Touch: 13
Flat Footed: 11

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 12
Cha: 7

Fort: 4
Ref: 4
Will: 3

CMB: 4
CMD: 17

Weapon: Cestus (counted as both piercing and bludgeoning)

Attack Bonus: 4
Damage output: 1d6+4

While using Flurry of Blows:

Attack Bonus: 3/3
Damage output: 2d6+8

With power attack:

Attack Bonus: 3
Damage output: 1d6+6

With power attack and flurry of blows:

Attack Bonus: 2/2
Damage output: 2d6+12

Focus on Tripping and grappling (to rend and pin).

Skills to go for:

Ability Mod/Ranks/Class Skill

Heal (for Jawbreaker feat chain - Wis) 1, 1 = 2
Acrobatics (Dex) 2, 1, 3 = 6
Climb (Str) 4, 1, 3 = 8
Escape Artist (Dex) 2, 1, 3 = 6
Perception (Wis) 1, 1, 3 = 5

Level up point allocation:
Level 4 - Wis
Level 8 - Str
Level 12 - Str
Level 16 - Str
Level 20 - Str

Monk feats:

Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist

Special Monk Feats:

1st level onwards - Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple
6th level - Improved Trip, Mobility
10th level - Spring Attack

Normal feats:

Greater Trip
Greater Grapple
Pinning Rend
Vicious Stomp
jawbreaker
bonebreaker
neckbreaker
Power Attack (taking at first level)

Style feats:

Dragon Style
Dragon Ferocity

How functional is this guy and is he considered optimised?

Thanks very much for the help, critique and opinions! :)


There's an alignment requirement for monks (specifically, any Lawful, as they are so disciplined).


Adam Christman wrote:
There's an alignment requirement for monks (specifically, any Lawful, as they are so disciplined).

Not for this Archetype. You can be any alignment. :)

Quote:
Alignment: A martial artist may be of any alignment.


Martial Artist specifically removes that, Adam.

That being said, as per errata the Cestus (and any other 'unarmed' weapon) no longer give monk unarmed damage, so it's a no go that way. Only issue I see


Weables wrote:

Martial Artist specifically removes that, Adam.

That being said, as per errata the Cestus (and any other 'unarmed' weapon) no longer give monk unarmed damage, so it's a no go that way. Only issue I see

Hmm, when or where was it stated you can no longer use a Cestus? I'm not too worried, mind. The only thing a Cestus did was make my attacks piercing and bludgeoning, so if you're not allowed to use the Cestus for whatever reason, it'd just go back to bludgeoning damage.


I don't have the text offhand. there has been thread battle after thread battle (hundreds of posts) about it. The main drawback isnt the piercing damage, it was being able to enchant the weapon and use unarmed damage with it.

But yea, you'll have to do a search, or someone can provide a link, I apologize. its a common topic.

Dark Archive

Take a look at Snapping Turtle Style. More AC, immediate action to start grapple if opponent misses you, negatives to crit confirms.


Weables wrote:

I don't have the text offhand. there has been thread battle after thread battle (hundreds of posts) about it. The main drawback isnt the piercing damage, it was being able to enchant the weapon and use unarmed damage with it.

But yea, you'll have to do a search, or someone can provide a link, I apologize. its a common topic.

Ah yea, I guess.

I mean when I was first told to use it, it seemed a little odd to me as technically anything other than your own body parts are weapons.

I guess if you could turn a Cestus into a Magic Weapon, all the way up to +5, it'd be seen as overpowered, but at the same time I can see why the argument stands, because you're still punching with your fists. You're just effectively wearing big, chunky gloves.

Was it officially ruled out then? Errata is a fairly new word to me, so I'm not entirely sure if it means the majority of players outruled it, or if it was officially outruled.

Edit:

Whipshire wrote:
Take a look at Snapping Turtle Style. More AC, immediate action to start grapple if opponent misses you, negatives to crit confirms.

Wow, that is probably the better choice, seeing as how low my AC is. Plus, an extra 3 AC and Touch should help loads.

I think everything else already covers my damage, so hopefully with the Snapping Turtle Style tree, I should become a good all rounder.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Only problem is now I have no idea what to swap out for it, as I was only going to use two of the Style Feats, but three are needed to make the Snapping Turtle Style worth while. :/


The PRD reflects what was said about the Cestus, but Brass Knuckles specifically say that Monks can do their unarmed damage through them.


Daelen wrote:
The PRD reflects what was said about the Cestus, but Brass Knuckles specifically say that Monks can do their unarmed damage through them.

That's what I don't get though. Both weapons are considered Monk weapons and both weapons expose your fingers, so by logic, they're either both unarmed weapons, or both armed weapons.

Either way, they're both attachments to your body and you still deal damage by punching things, so it's really strange.

Damage wouldn't be effected as Monks always deal 1d6 of damage at level 1, but Brass Knuckles can no doubt be turned into Magic Weapons, so there is really nothing different about the two weapons when using them as a Monk.

I dunno. If I were GM, I'd either allow them both as unarmed weapons, or not allow them to be considered as such. I wouldn't say one could be whilst the other couldn't.

Even punching with bare fists changes nothing apart from the ability to have a magic, punching weapon.

Out of curiosity, is the critical threat range for an unarmed strike (monk specifically) still 20, like spells and unarmed strikes from other classes?

Grand Lodge

No current weapon truly counts as an unarmed strike, other than an unarmed strike. It has been noted by more than one developer. I wish it was not true, but it is. Maybe your DM will houserule something else for you.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
No current weapon truly counts as an unarmed strike, other than an unarmed strike. It has been noted by more than one developer. I wish it was not true, but it is. Maybe your DM will houserule something else for you.

I'll just use some hand wraps or something. 1d6 will be the primary damage at level 1 for anything I wear on my hands, so seeing as my unarmed is that much anyway, I guess it's all just for aesthetics.

Still, I guess not allowing Brass Knuckles or Cestus' is good for something. It means you can't break the game by having a character making 7 attacks every round with +5 knuckle dusters and high strength, dealing over 150 (287 damage exactly using my stats and adding 35 damage from +5 Knuckles at level 20 with max damage) damage per round.

Liberty's Edge

Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Anyway, rather than going with my original idea and making a BAM (Barbarian Monk), I decided to go all out on the Monk and go with the Martial Artist Archetype from Ultimate Combat.

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 12
Cha: 7

==//==

Level up point allocation:
Level 4 - Wis
Level 8 - Str

First rule of point-buy: don't overpay for your top stat if you're not going to advance it.

Try:

STR+17
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:14
CHA:07

Compared to the 18/12 build, you're -1/-1 attack/damage from 1st to 3rd (with that disparity going away at 4th), and permanently AC+1/Will+1 by having a 14 WIS rather than a 12 or 13.

Quote:

Greater Trip

Greater Grapple
Pinning Rend
Vicious Stomp
jawbreaker
bonebreaker
neckbreaker
Power Attack (taking at first level)

OK, you're going to be dead real fast, because a no-AC monkbarian needs exactly one of two things to keep from insta-dying when he goes neg while raging: Raging Vitality (feat) or Guarded Life (rage power). So, make room for the obligatories if you're a BAM. And Extra Rage if you don't have enough levels of barbarian.

Power Attack at 1st is suboptimal if you're sacking your attack-bonus to Flurry.

Quote:
Quote:
That being said, as per errata the Cestus (and any other 'unarmed' weapon) no longer give monk unarmed damage, so it's a no go that way.
Hmm, when or where was it stated you can no longer use a Cestus?

You can Flurry with a cestus, but its damage die is fixed (this makes them ideal for martial-artists, because the archetype forfeits damage die increases).


Mike his build is for straight monk. Although I do agree with dropping the str a point and bumping wis.


MA gives up ki pool, not unarmed damage progression


@Mike - Thanks for the tip. I've just changed my Str and Wis. :)

@Jak - Yea, thing is I was going to go with a BAM originally, but it just didn't look as though it'd work as well as a straight Martial Artist in the end.

I'd still love to see a working BAM from Mike or someone above (for instance, how many levels of each you should take and what feats work well for both - I would have been a Martial Artist, Invulnerable Rager), but my GM likes to make us think we're going to die at every encounter, usually throwing in at least one ridiculously hard creature in each session. So, I need a character who can deal heavy damage, but at the same time, I wanted something fun, so a Brawler/Martial Artist was a great choice.

Plus, I've always wanted an unarmed melee character. :)

Anyway, as an example of how harsh my GM can be, he threw in a CR 5th Serpentine creature (possibly a Naga or something alike)...and we somehow managed to beat it. My Magus managed to hit it a few times with Ray of Frost, then buffed his damage and AC up, ran in to save someone and got downed in one hit, but the Fighter dragged me back out, another ally was downed the other side of the door (that the snake thing was guarding), so I got healed, ran around the temple and dragged him whilst continuously being chased by the thing....then we beat it and the worst part of it all was that IT WAS SUMMONED.

No exp for us and our GM said "you are meant to run away from some things, you know?"

@Archaeik - Yea, I know. That's why I like it...and the fact you can be any alignment. It's more fun to me because it has less restraints.

Grand Lodge

Is there an archetype you could stack on top of martial artist that would work with your build?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is there an archetype you could stack on top of martial artist that would work with your build?

No idea. The only one I even considered was the Invulnerable Rager Barbarian, sheerly for the Rage boost to Strength and the Damage Reduction.

My original idea was 10 levels of each, that way I could get a 5DR from the Barb and still get 4 attacks at 1D10, but it doesn't stand up to a Monk dealing 7 attacks at 2d10 each.

Grand Lodge

What about a stackable monk archetype? You do know you can stack multiple archetypes of the same class as long as they do not replace the same ability.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
What about a stackable monk archetype? You do know you can stack multiple archetypes of the same class as long as they do not replace the same ability.

That's news to me.

I wanted to stack either two Fighter or two Barbarian Archetypes together once, but my GM told me I wasn't allowed and he only does things by the rules....so I assumed that idea was out of the picture.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Mike his build is for straight monk. Although I do agree with dropping the str a point and bumping wis.
Oh. (I'd observe that a grappler is about the only fighting style for a Martial Artist who does not multiclass barbarian which is not rendered suboptimal by the loss of Ki pool and unarmed die increases -- so, you better really like to grapple, because it'll be about all you're ever doing without any dip outs.)
Quote:
What about a stackable monk archetype?

Sensei is the only other archetype which stacks with Martial Artist

Grand Lodge

Yeah, as long as no two same abilities are replaced, they can be stacked. That's RAW my friend.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Oh. (I'd observe that a grappler is about the only fighting style for a Martial Artist who does not multiclass barbarian which is not rendered suboptimal by the loss of Ki pool and unarmed die increases -- so, you better really like to grapple, because it'll be about all you're ever doing without any dip outs.)

Well, I only plan to strike unarmed and perform trip and grapple manoeuvres anyway (with the exception of picking creatures up and dropping them off of cliffs or any high ledge available), so hopefully my build is good to go on that front.

I still don't know if my CMB will be any good for pulling off manoeuvres, but one can only hope!

@Blackbloodtroll - Sweet! Hopefully some decent builds can be made with those same class Archetype combinations then. I guess when I'm done with this thread, I'll search out which Archetype fusions work the best.

As for other Archetypes, would a Tetori not absolutely suck for damage, but be incredibly good at Combat Manoeuvres?

I'd love it if you didn't have to give up Flurry of Blows for it, unless you can somehow make up for the damage lost?

Maybe 10 levels Barb and Tetori would work well.

Liberty's Edge

Despite being named "martial artist", the best use of the archetype is to Rage/Flurry with a temple sword -- the dropping of alignment requirement literally begs you to.

Grand Lodge

Martial artist can go into antipaladin.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Despite being named "martial artist", the best use of the archetype is to Rage/Flurry with a temple sword -- the dropping of alignment requirement literally begs you to.

Haha, a hand to hand combat class performs better with a sword....that's really odd. Still, I didn't think you could flurry with weapons, but I guess if you're using a special monk weapon, that's no problem.

I don't suppose you could do it with a bastard sword in each hand if you're part Barbarian (JotunGrip perhaps?), part Monk though?

I've finalised my Rocky Balboa type now.

I decided I'd keep Power Attack and the two Dragon Styles because if I swapped it out for the awesome, defensive snapping turtle, I'd have to get rid of Power Attack.

So, instead I'm going with the approach of "if a team mate can cast shield or Mage Armour on me, great. If not, hopefully my damage output will drop most things before they have a chance to drop me."

I'll be dealing damage from my Strength Bonus, Power Attacked Flurry of Blows and an extra half of my Strength as bonus damage on top of that (from my Dragon Style feats).

So, if the campaign went on to level 20, by end game my Monk could be dealing:

From Flurry of Blows damage dice - 2d10x7 = 140
From Strength (after putting in all skill points) - 6x7 = 42
From an additional half of my Strength - 3x7 = 21
From Power Attack - 12x7 = 84

= 287 damage per round (if I were to roll max damage on everything, which is practically impossible).

Still, the average damage will still no doubt be good.


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Despite being named "martial artist", the best use of the archetype is to Rage/Flurry with a temple sword -- the dropping of alignment requirement literally begs you to.

Haha, a hand to hand combat class performs better with a sword....that's really odd. Still, I didn't think you could flurry with weapons, but I guess if you're using a special monk weapon, that's no problem.

I don't suppose you could do it with a bastard sword in each hand if you're part Barbarian (JotunGrip perhaps?), part Monk though?

You can Flurry with any Monk weapon. Monks aren't necessarily proficient with all Monk weapons, but Temple sword is one of them. With a d8 damage and the Trip quality, it would actually be a pretty good option for you.

The Trip quality means you can use it when tripping and add all of it's relative bonuses to your CMB roll and if you fail by 10 can then drop it to avoid going prone. Also, it can be used two handed when making a single attack - for those times when you can't Flurry - for even better Power Attack damage.

it also gives you a slashing damage option. The only downside is not having both hands free for grappling. You could drop it if being held or get Quick Draw to enable easy arming/disarming of the sword.

I would also recommend using Shurikens for a short-range ranged attack option - you can Flurry with them and they get your Strength bonus to damage. You could even get them in Cold Iron etc for overcoming Damage Reductions


ayronc wrote:
I would also recommend using Shurikens for a short-range ranged attack option - you can Flurry with them and they get your Strength bonus to damage. You could even get them in Cold Iron etc for overcoming Damage Reductions

Ah, the sword is tempting (especially for the damage and being able to add the attack bonus to your CMB), but I'm going to stick to my unarmed combat as I love the idea so much!

Though, I guess I could have one on me just in case of emergency's and use it as a backup precaution. It might make for an interesting back story (preferring bare knuckle fighting to that of swordplay).

Shuriken's however, are very nicer suggestions and it can't hurt to have a few for those moments when CQC just isn't an option. Adding my strength on top of it is even better, so I guess I know where my starting money's going. Plus, I'm guessing I can collect them from the dead corpses and use them again?

Ah, I wish there was some way to raise my CMB even higher, because I'm a little concerned as to how effective I'll be at grappling things. I mean I might be okay early on, but past level 10? Maybe not!


Shuriken's aren't ususally recoverable unfortunately.

They are treated as ammunition for puroses of drawing, crafting masterwork and what happens to them after they are thrown. This means that if they hit they are destroyed and if they miss there is a 50% chance of them being recoverable.

As you get into the later levels the biggest issue with grappling is likely to be the size of your opponents so Enlarge Person becomes a useful spell for your allies to have available for you.

The Monk gets full BAB progression for combat maneuvers from third level which will help a lot. You can use Weapon Focus to boost your Grappling skills and as you take Improved and Greater versions of the skills you gain useful bonuses also.

My Level 6 Monk is +13 for most CMB plus any weapon based bonuses where applicable (18 Str). The last encounter we had saw him use a Trip in the first part of a Flurry to knock the BBEG down and then Stunning Fist to stun the opponent and it didn't take much from then to finish the encounter (even the iterative attack hit).

Won't always work but it can be pretty handy when it does. Knock 'em down and then gain benefit of a -4 to their AC and they will provoke attacks of opportunity if they try to stand up...


ayronc wrote:
Won't always work but it can be pretty handy when it does. Knock 'em down and then gain benefit of a -4 to their AC and they will provoke attacks of opportunity if they try to stand up...

Ah, that is unfortunate with the Shuriken's, as if they were recoverable, I'd have made them Masterwork.

As for knocking enemies down, can you use trip once, then punch them constantly while they're downed in the same round, with the rest of your flurry?

I'm also interested to know if you can grapple an enemy, then walk over to a ledge and release them in the same round.

As for working out my CMB at level 6; I should have a BAB of 4 and a Strength of 4, so my CMB should be at 8. This means that if I reach level 20 (most campaigns don't run for this long anyway), I'd have a BAB of 15 and a Strength of +6, so my CMB would be 21. Not bad actually. Maybe I will be a capable grappler, yet.

Also, knocking an enemy prone would work in my favour, as the feat below would allow me to get an AoO when the enemy falls prone AND when he tries to stand up:

Vicious Stomp (Combat)
You take advantage of the moment to brutally kick an enemy when he is down.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.

Only thing I'm not sure about is when you get an Attack of Opportunity, can you make a full attack or just make one attack (ie no Flurry of Blows).


Just one attack on Aoo. It is a good combo though.


CMB = BAB + STAT + SIZE + MISC

Monk at Lvl 6

CMB = 6 (Maneuver Training) + 4 (Strength) + 0 (Medium) + 2 (Improved Grapple)
CMB = 12

I have an extra +1 as an in adventure reward for a +13 total

Improved Trip will also give you a +2 when tripping (and you can apply weapon bonuses [MW, enhancement])

You can use a trip attack as part of a flurry of blows, which means you can knock them down and then keep pounding on them :)

With the grappling, you need to make the grapple one round and then in a subsequent round if you maintain the grapple can move your opponent. If you move them into danger they get a free attempt to break free with a +4 bonus. Then you can definitely drop them.


CMB at level 20

CMB = 20 + 6 + 4 (Greater Grapple/Greater Trip)
CMB = 30

even better than the 21 you were hoping for...


ayronc wrote:

CMB at level 20

CMB = 20 + 6 + 4 (Greater Grapple/Greater Trip)
CMB = 30

even better than the 21 you were hoping for...

That's quite incredible when you think about the fact you can obtain a CMB of 50 if you roll a natural 20.

Anyway, thanks very much for enlightening me on the whole Manoeuvre training. If you hadn't have said anything, I'd have completely ignored that as I thought my Archetype replaced that ability. Thankfully, it doesn't!

As for tripping and pounding, does that not in fact mean if I trip the enemy on my turn, I can then use vicious stomp and then carry on with the rest of my flurry....technically giving me one extra attack as a result of this, with every attack after the successful trip being at a +4 to hit (due to his -4AC)?

My AC sucks, but my CMB and CMD should get pretty good later on. Though my CMD will no doubt be considerably lower than my CMB by end game.

@Jak - Thanks! :)

Liberty's Edge

Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

So, if the campaign went on to level 20, by end game my Monk could be dealing:

From Flurry of Blows damage dice - 2d10x7 = 140

Not as a Martial Artist you won't. (No Unarmed damage advancement.)

Grand Lodge

A Bandersnatch (CR 17) has a CMD of 57 (65 vs trip)
That should give you some idea of what you will be up against using Combat Maneuvers as your main focus.


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Mike Schneider wrote:
Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

So, if the campaign went on to level 20, by end game my Monk could be dealing:

From Flurry of Blows damage dice - 2d10x7 = 140

Not as a Martial Artist you won't. (No Unarmed damage advancement.)

I'm not aware of Martial Artist losing the unarmed damage progression. They lose their ki pool and some of the abilities that synergise with it in exchange for some fighter bonuses, but there is no mention of this loss in the book that I can see...


Mike Schneider wrote:
Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

So, if the campaign went on to level 20, by end game my Monk could be dealing:

From Flurry of Blows damage dice - 2d10x7 = 140

Not as a Martial Artist you won't. (No Unarmed damage advancement.)

Master of Many Styles is the one that replaces Flurry of Blows. There's no mention of not being able to advance Unarmed Strikes with the Martial Artist. :)

@Blackbloodtroll - Ouch. That'd be untouchable even for me!

@Ayronc - Yea, it's the Master of Many Styles that loses it, not the Martial Artist. Martial Artist just loses his Ki Pool.

Liberty's Edge

MA replaces Ki
MMS replaces Flurry.
Sohei replaces Ki and Unarmed damage advancement.

..two many archetypes to keep track of at 2am. :-/


Mike Schneider wrote:

MA replaces Ki

MMS replaces Flurry.
Sohei replaces Ki and Unarmed damage advancement.

..two many archetypes to keep track of at 2am. :-/

No worries, I've been researching all night and it's now 9.06am here in England.

Just as reference for anyone interested, this is what the Martial Artist loses and gets to keep:

Martial Artist gets rid of:

Still Mind
Slow Fall
Ki Pool
Purity of Body
Diamond Body
Perfect Self
Wholeness of Body
Timeless Body
Tongue of Sun and Moon
Diamond Soul
Empty Body
Abundent Step - Loses this one because although MA doesn't get rid of it, it needs a Ki Pool and without one, you cannot use it.

Martial Artist still gets:

Flurry of Blows
Stunning Fist
Improved Unarmed Strike
Evasion
Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
High Jump
Improved Evasion
Quivering Palm

A Martial Artist instead gains:

Alignment - Can be of any alignment.
Immunity to Fatigue
Immunity to Exhaustion
Immunity to Stun
Immunity to Death effects and energy drain
Defensive Roll
Greater Defensive Roll
Gets 6 uses of Quivering Palm by Level 20
Physical Resistance - For a maximum of 5 ability drain negation (Nice!)
Exploit Weakness - +2 on attack rolls and any damage dealt ignores hardness and damage reduction. Alternatively, you can be granted a bonus to Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.
Martial Arts Master - Use your Monk level for Fighter feats
Pain Points - + 1 on Critical Hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm by 1.

In other news, a headbutt is considered an Unarmed Strike, so I will punch, kick, grapple (possibly throw?), pin, trip, stomp and headbutt my enemies to death!

Mean guy.


If you want to go the combat reflexes/mobility/spring attack route, you might want to consider the Panther Style chain of feats for AOO goodness.


Unless I'm missing something that gets around this requirement... Greater Trip requires combat expertise and Int 13.


oneplus999 wrote:
Unless I'm missing something that gets around this requirement... Greater Trip requires combat expertise and Int 13.

Well, improved trip needs Combat Expertise, but seeing as you get improved trip without having to meet the requirements, as far as I'm aware, I can just grab greater trip regardless because I'd already have improved trip.

Not sure what James Jacobs thinks of this, but that's how I think it was intended to work. I mean why else give the monk improved trip without the need of Combat Expertise?

My stats are actually these right now, so my Int is covered:

Str: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 14
Cha: 7

Name/requirements

Improved Trip - Combat Expertise, Int 13
Greater Trip - Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6

As you can see, Combat expertise is only needed because of improved trip...which at level 6, the monk can have regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not, so I don't need it....even if the ability to raise my terrible AC is nice. :)

Liberty's Edge

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Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
oneplus999 wrote:
Unless I'm missing something that gets around this requirement... Greater Trip requires combat expertise and Int 13.
Well, improved trip needs Combat Expertise, but seeing as you get improved trip without having to meet the requirements, as far as I'm aware, I can just grab greater trip regardless because I'd already have improved trip.

Nope. Greater Trip has Combat Expertise as a prereq; if a class doesn't offer without prereqs, then you'll need CE.

= = = =

Wise BAM (dwarf 20pt):

STR:14
DEX:14
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+17
CHA-05

Traits: Berserker of the Society (rage +3/day), Ruthless (+1 crit)

00 saves 03 02 03 (saves assume raging)
01 barb1 08 02 05 [Brutal Pugilist][move30], Raging Vitality, rage 10r/day
02 monk1 10 04 07 [Martial Artist][Evasion][Mobility]
03 monk2 11 05 08 [Deflect Arrows], Extra Rage (16r/day)
04 monk3 11 05 09 [move40][Pain Points](+2 crit), WIS>18
05 monk4 12 06 10 [Martial Arts Master][Exploit Weakness], WF:Unarmed Strike
06 monk5 12 06 10 [Extreme Endurance](fatigue immunity)
07 monk6 13 07 11 [move50][Improved Bull Rush], WS:Unarmed Strike
08 barb2 14 07 11 [Savage Grapple][Reckless Abandon+1], (rage 18r/day)
09 monk7 14 07 11 [Physical Resistance+1], Greater Weapon Focus:Unarmed Strike
10 monk8 15 08 12
11 monk9 15 08 12 Improved Critical:Unarmed Strike
12 monk0 16 09 13 [Physical Resistance+2][Medusa's Wrath]

...goal here is raw bonuses to damage and huge hit-points and saves. +3 attacks due to Reckless and GWF (maybe +5 w/Exploit); +2 damage from WS; +2 to confirm crits (Ruthless,Pain Points), and have an extended threats. No Power Attack -- goal is to get as iteratives to hit as possible.

"Rockface Knutson, our scrying audience would love to know how you do it."

-- "Well, Jay; it's easy: I just beat on 'em until they're broke."

"No tripping or fancy grappling?"

-- "Nope; they get in the way of wailin'."

"No Power Attack? No Style feats?"

-- "Yeah; and then I gotta take Critical Focus to overcome the penalties? No thanks. Better idea: not have penalties on my beatings."

"Well...what if you run into nasty DR?"

-- "I have a collection of fancy keen temple swords and a large waraxe for that."

"Why Improved Bull Rush instead of Improved Grapple?"

-- "Grappling is boring. Pushing things into lava is fun."


Pretty nice!

Would you only take 2 levels of Barbarian, even if you reached level 20 though?

I have no idea what your AC and HP would be after all of the above as I'm still fairly new to the game, so am constantly widening my understanding of what each thing can do.

Also, is a Monk's Unarmed attack always at a Natural 20 x2 for a Critical threat?


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Hey guys,

Some of you would have seen my previous thread, asking for advice on making a decent unarmed fighter.

Power attack requires a +1 BAB.

-James


james maissen wrote:

Power attack requires a +1 BAB.

-James

Realised that after someone else pointed it out, but thanks anyway. :)


This is my Pathfinder take on Pai Mei from the movie Kill Bill using the Martial Artist archetype. I have tried to increase his unarmed strike damage as much as possible. I hope it gives you some ideas.

Human 20 point buy (Favoured Class +1 HP/lvl); Chaotic Neutral

Str: 17 (includes +2 Human bonus)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

01 Flurry of Blows; Stunning Fist; Unarmed Strike; Monk Wpn Prof; Skilled; Dodge; Weapon Focus (unarmed strike); Improved Grapple
02 Evasion; Deflect Arrows
03 Fast Movement +10 ft; Maneuver Training; Pain Points; Dragons Style; +1 STR
04 Martial Arts Master; Exploit Weakness
05 High Jump; Extreme Endurance (immunity to fatigue); Weapon Specialisation (unarmed strike)
06 Fast Movement +20 ft; Improved Trip
07 Physical Resistance (reduce ability dmg by 1); Dragon Ferocity
08 +1 STR
09 Fast Movement +30 ft; Improved Evasion; Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
10 Extreme Endurance (immunity to exhaustion); Physical Resistance (reduce ability dmg by 2); Medusa's Wrath
11 Lunge
12 Fast Movement +40 ft; Abundant Step; +1 STR
13 Physical Resistance (reduce ability dmg by 3); Defensive Roll 1/day; Greater Weapon Specialisation (unarmed strike)
14 Improved Critical (unarmed strike)
15 Fast Movement +50 ft; Extreme Endurance (immunity to stunning); Quivering Palm 1/day; Power Attack
16 Physical Resistance (reduce ability dmg by 4); Defensive Roll 2/day; Quivering Palm 2/day; +1 STR
17 Quivering Palm 3/day; Vital Strike
18 Fast Movement +60 ft; Snatch Arrows; Quivering Palm 4/day
19 Physical Resistance (reduce ability dmg by 5); Defensive Roll 3/day; Quivering Palm 4/day; Greater Defensive Roll; Improved Vital Strike
20 Extreme Endurance (immunity to death effects and energy drain); Quivering Palm 5/day; +1 STR


I have no idea how you have that many feats at level 1, but annoyingly you don't get Abundant Step as a Martial Artist because it requires a Ki Pool and Exploit Weakness gets rid of that, unfortunately.

This is how I eventually statted out my guy:

Main stats:
Class: Martial Artist (Monk)
Name: Kaze "Muscle Rider" Daizaemon
Race: Human
Eyes: Brown
Hair: Short, spiked and Black
Height: 6'3
Weight: 200 lb's
Age: 26

Alignment: Chaotic Good
Level: 1

HP: 11
AC: 13
Touch: 13
Flat Footed: 11

Initiative: 3

Str: 17
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Wis: 14
Int: 13
Cha: 7

Fort: 4
Ref: 4
Will: 4

CMB: 3
CMD: 16

Traits:

Deft Dodger - You gain a +1 trait bonus on Reflex Saves.
Adopted - Warrior of Old (Elf) - You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.

Equipment:
Tent - 10gp, 20 lb's
Waterskin - 1gp, 4lb's
Bedroll - 1sp, 5lb's
Canvas - 1sp, 1lb
6 rations - 3gp, 6lb's
Backpack - 2gp, 2lb's

Carrying: 38lb's

Skills:
My GM is using rules from Tome of Secrets, so we're allowed 4 extra skill ranks per level in exchange for a penalty to a certain climate. My guy hates the cold, but I felt I'd explain this, so you know why I have more skills than I should have. :)
Heal 3
Acrobatics 5
Climb 7
Escape Artist 5
Perception 6

Hates Cold and has penalties in the cold due to his light clothing:

Sense Motive 6
Ride 5
Survival 3
Swim 7

Feats and abilities:
Level 1: Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp, Flurry of Blows
Level 2: Evasion, Improved Grapple
Level 3: Power Attack, Pain Points, Manoeuvre Training, Fast Movement +10ft
Level 4: Exploit Weakness, AC +1
Level 5: Combat Expertise, Immunity to Fatigue, High Jump
Level 6: *Improved Trip, Fast Movement +20ft
Level 7: Greater Trip, Physical Resistance
Level 8: AC +2
Level 9: Greater Grapple, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement +30ft
Level 10: *Dodge, Immunity to Exhaustion
Level 11: Pinning Rend
Level 12: Fast Movement +40ft, AC +3
Level 13: Jawbreaker, Defensive Roll
Level 14: *Mobility
Level 15: Bone Breaker, Immunity to Stunning, Quivering Palm, Fast Movement +50ft
Level 16: AC +4
Level 17: Neckbreaker
Level 18: *Spring Attack, Fast Movement +60ft
Level 19: Dragon Style, Greater Defensive Roll
Level 20: Immunity to Death effects and Energy drain, AC +5

Martial Artist - Monk Archetype:
The martial artist pursues a mastery of pure martial arts without the monastic traditions. He is a master of form, but lacks the ability to harness his ki.
Alignment: A martial artist may be of any alignment.

Pain Points (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.

Martial Arts Master (Ex): At 4th level, a martial artist may use his monk level to qualify for feats with a fighter level prerequisite when those feats are applied to unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special quality. This ability replaces slow fall.

Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object's DR or hardness.

A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.

This ability replaces ki pool.

Extreme Endurance (Ex): At 5th level, a martial artist gains immunity to fatigue. At 10th level, he also gains immunity to exhaustion. At 15th level, he gains immunity to stunning. At 20th level, he gains immunity to death effects and energy drain. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, and perfect self.

Physical Resistance (Ex): At 7th level, if a martial artist suffers any effect that causes ability damage, ability drain, or temporary ability score penalties, the effect is reduced by 1 point. This reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 7th (to a maximum reduction of 5 at 19th level). This ability replaces wholeness of body, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

Defensive Roll (Ex): At 13th level, a martial artist may use the defensive roll advanced rogue talent once per day, plus once per three levels beyond 13th (to a maximum of 3 times a day at 19th level). This ability replaces diamond soul.

Quivering Palm: A martial artist may use this ability one additional time per day per level above 15th, but may not have more than one in effect at a time.

Greater Defensive Roll (Ex): At 19th level, a martial artist suffers no damage on a successful defensive roll, and only half damage if the Reflex saving throw fails. This ability replaces empty body.

Kaze's Back Story:
A tall and incredibly powerful martial artist who comes from the countryside, looking for a good fight. One of his signature moves is the "back attack", in which he thrusts his back against his enemies with incredible force, often sending them flying.
He likes to stop evil beings in their track and is always looking to fight someone more powerful than himself.

In his not so distant past, Kaze cared for a child who was kicked out onto the streets by his own parents, due to their own selfish addiction to pesh. The reason for this was that they couldn't afford to pay for both, drugs and their kid. One had to go, but unfortunately for the kid, it wasn't the right decision that they made that day.

Despite his cold outlook, Kaze does have a softer side. In fact, he wept when he thought of how Takeshi was thrown out at such a young age. He felt sorry for the boy, realising the kid had never felt or experienced the love someone needs through their childhood. As such, he took the child in, seeing him as his own adoptive brother. This boy was called Takeshi.

Takeshi admired Kaze for what he had done, seeing him for the decent, nice and honourable person he was. The boy saw him as a beacon of hope and began to call him "Muscle Rider" (this is the name of a character in an old pre-catastrophy comic he was given as a gift from Kaze's adoptive parents).

Kaze decided to leave Takeshi with his own adoptive parents, who promised him they would take the child in as their own, teaching him how to become a warrior as strong as him. Being both Elf and Half-elf, they have the youth and energy to see it through, too.

One might think that leaving the boy once again was a harsh thing to do, but knowing that Takeshi looked to Kaze for help at any sign of trouble, he figured in order for the boy to grow as strong as he is, he needed to be out of the picture, so Takeshi could grow into an independent young man one day.

When he said his goodbyes, he told Takeshi that one day he would be back, telling him that he'd always be around, watching him grow into the powerful and honourable man he was meant to be. This comforted Takeshi, to know that his idol, Muscle Rider, would always be watching over him, no matter where in the world he was.

To this day, Kaze continues testing his strength and fighting abilities, constantly searching out new opponents to learn things from, broadening his fighting capabilities and proving to the world how strong he is.

Although good, Kaze takes some sport from laying out opponents that cross his path. This is usually because he only fights those with bad intentions. He's one of the only people he knows to prefer fighting with his own bare hands, using his own incredible strength to fight every battle. Though this is highly dangerous, his strength, combined with his incredible will power is strong enough to go face to face with the most powerful opponents around.

He sees weapons as cheap, unskilled ways to deal with things and feels that real strength comes from the power of ones own body. He believes that by becoming the strongest hand to hand fighter in existence, he can prove this theory to everyone.

Using a weapon would be to contradict himself and his own beliefs.

Kaze has always been a quiet individual and is always the first to enter a fight where the strongest opponents are present. His own strength is one to be feared, but his compassion for others is one to be admired.

Playing Kaze with his 7 Charisma:
Kaze is all about being the first one to step up to fight the biggest, most badass opponent around, but he's not a leader in the slightest sense of the word.
He's a nice guy, but has little personality.

For example, he's good looking, but he doesn't talk much. He has his own goals in mind and although he would help others, he has no intention of leading the group or throwing out his own ideas or opinions. He just likes to get in and beat on things in the most efficient way possible (more than likely to be seen as brutal by the other party members), then out of battle, he just prefers to tag along at the back, observing and saying very little. He's more of a thinker than a socialiser.


I know Im a little late to this; but....

If you plan on Grappling, you need to KNOW the rules for grappling. Seriously no one at your table is going to know them really well and I'm including the DM, regardless of experience. You will need to walk the DM through it, repeatedly since the Jawbreakers feat chain gets terrifying at the end. Read and reread the rules on this everytime you level since all of the new grapple abilities will make your options in combat pretty expansive.

Now for goodies.
Look into the Unarmed Fighter, Fighter Archtype. It's not great as a dip but it gives you access to the entire monk weapon list. Some of the exotics are pretty good for trip maneuvers. It also gives you a free Style Feat that bypasses prerequisites. That's a big deal. If you take it at clvl 1 you'll get to start with 10 HP.

Don't neglect your WIS stat. The Pain Points and Exploit Weakness features kinda rely on them to some degree. It boosts AC, which you'll need. It makes your Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist credible threats. You will need a decent modifier to make these stick at high levels.

Look at some of the less used feats.
Scorpion Style This is a horribly designed feat. Unless you grapple frequently, then it becomes much better than average. Check it out, I've gotten good use out of it with my grappler.
Enforcer this will allow you to keep opponents shaken pretty much constantly.
That's kinda in theme for your character.
Weapon Focus:Grapple. Check with your DM, some DMs differentiate between Unarmed Strkes and Grapples ,some don't.
Punishing Kick. It's a trip that damages or bull rushes and damages. While you can only use one Stunning Fist per round or one PK per round you can use both as components in a flurry, plus it gives options.

As mentioned above, Snapping Turtle Style is ideal for a build that uses Jawbreaker and Neckbreaker. I'd take it over Dragon Style every time with your feat layout.

I generally avoid Power Attack with Monks. This is a purely personal choice, but trading accuracy for damage is a weak option for an unarmed fighter build. At high levels you will be doing CON damage which doesn't pair with PA or Palm strikes which just kill things outright.
Combat Expertise is actually a nice feat for Monks. In and of itself. It's useful when flurrying and stacks with Fighting Defensively. This will help in those odd situations where grappling is impractical and stalling for a round is preferable.

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