You are only flanking in melee attacking with a ranged weapon doesn't gain the flanking bonuses because it isn't melee.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
I'd argue since you don't get the +2 bonus for using your ranged weapon, then you're not getting a flanking bonus, and therefore don't qualify for any other bonuses that flanking gives (like being able to sneak attack)
This is obviously the intention of the rules, but the RAW simply wasnt built with your corner case in mind.
You do not have to be attacking to be flanking. You only have to be there and threatening. You can stand around not attacking and your fighter friend will get flank on the enemy because you are flanking and threatening.
The ranged weapon will not get the flanking bonus, I know that.
My question is, will it be sneakable? Please refer to my post above.
No because you only flank when making a melee attack -- without a melee attack you are not flanking. What you threaten doesn't really matter since the melee attack is the primary mover.
Without a melee attack you never even check for flank.
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Without a melee attack you never even check for flank.Flanking is a state, based on the position of other combatants. Being flanked is a state, based on the position of other combatants. A flanking bonus is what you get for a melee attack against a creature that you are causing to be flanked.
No it is not a state:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
People treat it like a state but it isn't -- it is specifically a special bonus you get when making a melee attack against an opponent in a specific situation.
Please note that the very first part of the flanking rules is when making a melee attack.
Are you making a melee attack?
No. You do not get the flanking bonus and as you didn't get the flanking bonus you don't get sneak attack for flanking.
When do you flank? When making a melee attack.
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My god. The intent is crystal clear. Let me guess, the next topic will be how SA can be used against creatures immune to precision damage since the ability doesn't say it's precision damage.
People treat it like a state but it isn't -- it is specifically a special bonus you get when making a melee attack against an opponent in a specific situation.
Please note that the very first part of the flanking rules is when making a melee attack.
Are you making a melee attack?
No. You do not get the flanking bonus and as you didn't get the flanking bonus you don't get sneak attack for flanking.
When do you flank? When making a melee attack.
No, it says when making a melee attack you get a +2 flanking bonus. It does not say that you only flank while you attack, or the person on the opposite side would not flank with you unless you attacked at the same time.
A flanking bonus != flanking.
Please stop assuming things.
Show me the flanked condition.
Bleed
Blinded
Broken
Confused
Cowering
Dazed
Dazzled
Dead
Deafened
Disabled
Dying
Energy Drained
Entangled
Exhausted
Fascinated
Fatigued
Flat-Footed
Frightened
Grappled
Helpless
Incorporeal
Invisible
Nauseated
Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Pinned
Prone
Shaken
Sickened
Stable
Staggered
Stunned
Unconscious
There isn't one.
Why? Because the only time there is flanking is specifically when a melee attack is made.
You are threatened by more than one person -- but that isn't being flanked until there is a melee attack being made.
You are arguing for a condition that doesn't exist.
Prove the existence of the condition you claim exists. You won't be able to since it doesn't exist as a condition by RAW.
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We can assume the intent is crystal clear since this has been in the rules since Pathfinder's inception and there has been no misunderstanding.
you need to be flanking or have a flatfooted opponent to make a melee sneak attack.
You need a flatfooted opponent to make a ranged sneak attack, provided you are within 30 feet.
Paizo staff will not make this a FAQ issue.
Just because someone can twist words to go against the intent does not mean the intent isn't clear.
You said 'state' you are correct.
However there isn't a flanked state either.
You are threatened (more specifically standing in a threatened square) by two opponents (generally on opposite sides of you). When one of the attacks you with a melee weapon then they flank you for a bonus -- but only the one attacking does.
There is no flanking without a melee attack.
Flanking only happens with a melee attack. There is no flank without that attack.
You only have to be there and threatening.
You don't need to be threatening. The person who is helping you get a flanking bonus needs to be threatening.
FAQ Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
"The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10"
Since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, if you're not making a melee attack, you're not flanking.
If you're standing there with armor spikes or whatever, but you attack with a ranged weapon or take no action, you're not flanking. You can still be helping someone else get flanking, but you are not flanking unless you are making a melee attack. And since you're not flanking, whatever ranged attack you are making cannot benefit from sneak attack unless the target is denied dex.
I think the OP has an argument.
The rules intended answer is obvious, but the author is not interested in the rules intended answer.
Let's take the flanking section:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
This section is clear. One receives a bonus when melee attacking an opponent who is threatened on its opposite border. It does not really delineate who exactly can be named to be "flanking", however, simply who gets a bonus and when. One can imply that one who gets a bonus when melee attacking is the only one who can be considered to be flanking, but one could just as easily imply that the one threatening from the opposite border is considered flanking as well.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
This section seems to be purely demonstrative, and not definitive, as it makes no mention of threatening, and is thus partially contradictory. Obviously though, in context, we understand the meaning linguistically. Regardless, this lack of clarity leaves this section unhelpful.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
This is similar to the above, and thus irrelevant.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
This section is much like the first, speaking purely of a bonus designated "flanking bonus". The obvious implication is that one who receives a flanking bonus is flanking, but it is not directly stated. One can still not be sure if it is a "if an only if" statement.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
This is unfortunately not helpful.
From this section, it is unclear, through purely grammatical interpretation, whether one needs to be currently making an attack with a melee weapon or simply threatening with a melee weapon to be a flanker. It is obvious, however, that one only receives a +2 bonus when attacking with a melee weapon.
So, when rules are unhelpful, the expectation is that your GM can figure it out. I'm guessing he will say no.
I'm also guessing that any developer response would yield a "no". Honestly, I doubt the developers would waste their time when the situation is patently ridiculous. Realistically, if you were afraid of not getting the flanking bonus, you could simply stab at the guy. It may be more relevant when two weapon fighting with a loaded pistol or hand crossbow, but this case is so... trivial that I still doubt it would get answered.
Fun to look at how much people pull from experience and linguistic interpretation, though. :)
The section where the Flanking rules are talked about is Combat Modifiers. It is crystal clear that such rules apply on a per-attack basis:
A number of factors and conditions can influence an attack roll. Many of these situations grant a bonus or penalty on attack rolls or to a defender's Armor Class.
This means that Flanking is specifically relative to an individual attack roll.
Flanking defines itself as solely for melee attacks.
Read as written, the answer is no.
Read as intended, the answer is no.
According to the developers, the answer is no.
I would be inclined to allow the sneak attack in the given situation, if the character attacked with both the melee dagger and the ranged dagger in the same round. After all, if the melee dagger isn't a part of the attack, then it also doesn't threaten the defender at the time, so no flanking would occur.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner
Seems quite clear... You get the "flanking" bonus when making a melee attack. If and only if there is an opponent threatening on the opposite side.
The person on the other side is considered "threatening" the opponent.
In other words.. you provide the flanking bonus to your buddy because they are melee attacking. Your buddy does not provide you a flanking bonus because you are making ranged attacks.
Merely assuming? Nope -- we are reading the rules.
As for the feats -- hey looks like someone needs a readied action or to be an inquisitor -- sucks when developers don't make their feats well huh?
As I have explained, you do not have to be attacking the creature to count for another character to be flanking.
Define flanking.
For most of us, flanking is defined as it is in the flanking section of the combat chapter: A bonus on melee attack rolls against a foe who is threatened on the opposite side.
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As I have explained, you do not have to be attacking the creature to count for another character to be flanking.Define flanking.
For most of us, flanking is defined as it is in the flanking section of the combat chapter: A bonus on melee attack rolls against a foe who is threatened on the opposite side.
This!
The threatening aspect is referring to the guy on the other side who is not currently up in initiative! Once it is your turn, the other person is threatening and you may make you flank attack, which must be melee
I have no reason to define something as something it is not when I never claimed it was the thing it isn't.
Your insistent need to try and compel me to do so is an attempt at distraction from the fact that your whole argument is predicated on something that doesn't exist in the way you want it too.
The funny thing is you presume to know how the state of being flanked is achieved but fail to provide proof.
I removed some posts. Please don't insult each other.
Nigrescence:
Let me see if I am getting what you are asking about.
So, let's say, we have a rogue(r) flanking a monster (M), with a buddy(b).
So to start, the battlefield looks like this:
_____
_rMb_
_____
But the Monster has a Friend(F). Who, is, say, standing a little ways away. So the battlefield looks like this:
_____
_rMb_
____F
Now, we can all agree, the rogue is flanking the Monster with the buddy. And I think we all agree that if the rogue makes the Monster the target of her sneak attack in melee, the rogue will deal sneak attack damage to the Monster if she successfully hits it.
But if the question is can you flank M while sneak attacking F? No, because you're not flanking F. You're flanking M, and the wording of sneak attack says very clearly that you must be flanking your target, and if F is the target of your sneak attack, you are not flanking him.
On the other hand, if your question is can you throw a weapon at M and still deal sneak attack damage since you are in a flanking position --- I would say that literally, yes you can. But I'm not sure why you would want to, since it would provoke an attack of opportunity for making a ranged attack in a threatened area, and you would need precise shot since M is likely at least in melee with b if not you or take a penalty to hit. Not to mention, you just gave up one of your weapons when you're standing right next to a monster, which seems unwise.
For dealing regular ranged sneak attack damage, you're better off finding clever ways to deny your target its Dexterity bonus to AC, like using the Shatter Defenses feat (up the Dazzling Display tree), surprising, being invisible, and so on.
This!
The threatening aspect is referring to the guy on the other side who is not currently up in initiative! Once it is your turn, the other person is threatening and you may make you flank attack, which must be melee
The other person does not ever have to have attacked the creature for you to both flank it.
Your melee attack gets a flanking bonus if you are flanking. There is no "flank attack". There are attacks which get a flanking bonus, when you are flanking the creature you attack.
This is not an accurate description of how flanking is written. You only are flanking when making a melee attack, What you just described is not how RAW describes flanking.
Nowhere does it say the person that is not attacking is considered flanking. The flanking description describes the opposite person as just "threatening". He is "flanking" only happens when you make a melee attack, while another person "threatens" from the opposite side.
Now, we can all agree, the rogue is flanking the Monster with the buddy. And I think we all agree that if the rogue makes the Monster the target of her sneak attack in melee, the rogue will deal sneak attack damage to the Monster if she successfully hits it.
But if the question is can you flank M while sneak attacking F? No, because you're not flanking F. You're flanking M, and the wording of sneak attack says very clearly that you must be flanking your target, and if F is the target of your sneak attack, you are not flanking him.
On the other hand, if your question is can you throw a weapon at M and still deal sneak attack damage since you are in a flanking position --- I would say that literally, yes you can. But I'm not sure why you would want to, since it would provoke an attack of opportunity for making a ranged attack in a threatened area, and you would need precise shot since M is likely at least in melee with b if not you or take a penalty to hit. Not to mention, you just gave up one of your weapons when you're standing right next to a monster, which seems unwise.
For dealing regular ranged sneak attack damage, you're better off finding clever ways to deny your target its Dexterity bonus to AC, like using the Shatter Defenses feat (up the Dazzling Display tree), surprising, being invisible, and so on.
Yes, I agree that we are flanking M, and I agree that I am not flanking F. That is clear alone from the combat section I linked above explaining flanking.
My question is if I can throw a weapon at M if I have two daggers and throw one, since they are melee weapons and I am flanking and threatening but not getting the flanking bonus but still get a ranged sneak attack since I am flanking, as the SA ability describes a way for me to get a SA.
I gave up one weapon, but still have one.
I understand that the situation does not seem ideal, but I'm not concerned with it being the "best" course of action or the strongest option. I'm concerned with it...
Then like I said, yes, I think it does. (The "melee attack" line clearly refers to getting the +2 to attack, which I know you're not assuming.)
Of course, I am not your GM. If he or she disagrees, you may still be at square one.
I linked the flanking combat chapter section above (and just now).
Flanking is about positioning.
Just to completely grind this down:
1)
The section you mentioned is under "Combat Modifiers" this means flanking is a combat modifier.
"The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability."
Flanking is therefore a combat modifier, which is a number you add to the roll.
Thus, flanking IS the +2 bonus to attacks. That is all. Without the bonus, there is no flanking.
2)
"When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers."
If you do not attack, you do not get the bonus. If you do not get the bonus, you are not flanking.
3)
"flanking specifically refers to melee attacks" this means if you are not making a melee attack, you are not flanking. Even if you are helping someone else get flanking.
Even if you are in a position to flank, even if the creature is threatened on the opposite side, you are not flanking unless you make a melee attack.