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Assume that your characters are in a city, and you run across a couple of children playing. You hear the children shouting that they're playing "angels and fiends" ("Cops and Robbers" by a different name.) At some point, the kids say the names of some specific angelic/fiendish personages ("Awww, you ALWAYS get to be Orcus!")
Would you be more likely to:
A) assume this is a background flavor event and move on (or join in, if your character's like that)
or B) stop and say, "wait, how the heck do those kids know the names of demons?"
Basically, I was considering using this in my Savage Tide game to give the characters a nudge about the location of the angelic cult called the Church of the Whirling Fury - the kids' parents are members of the cult. But I'm not sure if it will actually spur them to investigate anything or if they'll just smile at the silly background event and move on.
Anyone have thoughts on this?
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Personally, hearing children shouting out specific names of demon lords would raise an eyebrow for my characters. Going off the assumption that demon lord names aren't that widely circulated in most cultures, that is. I'd definitely investigate further. If it's just them saying generic "angels" and "demons", I'd be closer to just assuming it's a game and nothing more.
Throwing in some more obscure names along with a potentially easily recognizable one might make it hook a little harder.
B), just because I normally play paranoid characters.
A low Wis/Int character however should be inclined to pick A).
I'd, assuming I'd recognized it, either A. Interrogate the kid in the nicest manner possible. B. Get the hell out of town.
If they're just playing a generic game without names I doubt I'd notice them other than noting their existence. Name dropping like that would seriously freak me out.
The answer dependent upon the size of the town and how many kids are playing this game.
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Are they teens? Teens are prone to looking up demon hoohah and such. I'd tell them to get off my lawn (as a druid, I consider any grass my lawn).
I think Orcus is a bad example, personally. He's too mainstream and popular, and doesn't have enough 'bad stuff' associated with him... just the undead right? I mean, you can go find a graveyard crypt and trip over a half dozen animate skeletons in most fantasy settings. He's kindof, whats the word... blase? Is that right?
But if, for example, I heard a little girl exclaim, "No, I get to be Sifkesh, YOU be Nocticula!" I would be all over that weirdness and trying to find out what was going on. Or right out of town, depending on my relative ability to deal with such.
Hearing the names of demon lords would be no more disturbing than hearing the names of devas. I'd wonder how they came to know the names of either, unless it's an area frequented by either race.
I agree with KrispyXIV - the concept is sound, but the specific example of Orcus might be a little too well-known. This is also a situation where if the PCs don't immediately catch on, knowledge checks are your friend. Start with checks to identify the Demon Lords (and if the results allow it, let them fail one) - that will remind them that this is not common knowledge. If they still don't catch on, a knowledge: local check can tell them that this is not a normal activity in the greater area.
I agree with KrispyXIV - the concept is sound, but the specific example of Orcus might be a little too well-known.
I think it definately says something that I can identify with kids playing 'Divine champion' versus zombies, which I associate with Orcus.
But in reality, thats not doing Orcus justice. He's just as bad as Sifkesh and Nocticula, in horribleness. But for some reason, the utter wrongness is much more clear if we have kids wanting to associate with the Demon Lords of self-mutiliation and suicide and the Demon Lord of rape.
If ostensibly normal kids are throwing those names out, and the players recognize them, they should react, one way or another. Unless they're non-heroic, which could be an issue.
I would imagine in the tales of many faiths angels and deamons come up. Christianity, Islam and Judism all share Lucifer and Michael. If you want to get really fun and read Enoch you'll find a few more. These are not secret because they have made it in to the major text. As such I would imagine there could be a number of well known demon or angel names that come up depending on what the GM imagines fill the pages of sacred texts in game.
I would imagine in the tales of many faiths angels and deamons come up. Christianity, Islam and Judism all share Lucifer and Michael. If you want to get really fun and read Enoch you'll find a few more. These are not secret because they have made it in to the major text. As such I would imagine there could be a number of well known demon or angel names that come up depending on what the GM imagines fill the pages of sacred texts in game.
As widely circulated as the various incarnations of the bible are, you would be surprised at the level of ignorance. Most people would know Lucifer, Michael, or Gabriel, but if you went beyond that, 95% or the population would give you crickets.
Now, remove the printing press, and the easy availibility to actual books AND move to a polytheistic culture. I would expect children to know a few of the gods good and bad, and maybe a few of the devils who are on par with gods in power, but when you drop below that level, you are at a point where only the people who actually dedicate study to the subject would know.
I have to say as a player I would´t pick up on that,especially in that kind of setting.I´d probably think your making a joke:)
Thats not meant as a critique by the way
Now, remove the printing press, and the easy availibility to actual books AND move to a polytheistic culture. I would expect children to know a few of the gods good and bad, and maybe a few of the devils who are on par with gods in power, but when you drop below that level, you are at a point where only the people who actually dedicate study to the subject would know.
Why would you remove the printing press? Golarion is that advanced after all. Universal literacy is assumed, considering even barbarians aren't illiterate, and I've seen a printing press in some book.
Why would you remove the printing press? Golarion is that advanced after all. Universal literacy is assumed, considering even barbarians aren't illiterate, and I've seen a printing press in some book.
Now, remove the printing press, and the easy availibility to actual books AND move to a polytheistic culture. I would expect children to know a few of the gods good and bad, and maybe a few of the devils who are on par with gods in power, but when you drop below that level, you are at a point where only the people who actually dedicate study to the subject would know.
Sorry, I meant modern printing presses that can push out thousands of books at a cost of dollars per book.
Even with something like the Gutenberg Press, you are not going to find 3 copies of "The Big Book of Demons" in every village bookstore.
While I do agree that there was a high degree of illiteracy there was also a high degree of disperion of the basic teachings. Many people recognized the stories not needing to read them. Also these tales were not just religious in nature they were spread by storytellers and bards. So I think it is safe to say that one or two Demon Lords might have a name that make it into the pop culture.
B) Walk up and I ask if I can be Asmodeus.
@Azten- Trying the be different? Or just wanting the kids to all attack you? lol
B) Walk up and I ask if I can be Asmodeus.
Little girl replies: "No, silly, daddy is Asmodeus!", with innocent childish grin.
While I do agree that there was a high degree of illiteracy there was also a high degree of disperion of the basic teachings. Many people recognized the stories not needing to read them. Also these tales were not just religious in nature they were spread by storytellers and bards. So I think it is safe to say that one or two Demon Lords might have a name that make it into the pop culture.
Pretty much the ones that are on par with gods in power level.
Anything that would be a DC 10 Knowledge(planes) or Knowledge(Religion)check or below would be common knowledge, because anyone can make that check untrained. I would make sure the kids are using names that would be at least a DC 15 or 20 check.
Yes but anthing that is likely fodder for festival morality plays, or farces, or greek style dramas with Golorion dieties might include well known characters. Nor are these necessarily the true names of the deamons or angels.
Proper names of "standard" outsiders is a bit creepy/unrealistic, but names of unique outsiders that are relevant to the local faith, or of standard outsiders that have made actual impacts upon the local area.
Savage Tide, right? So for local flavor, you might have:
Olman kids might play a game of hide and seek + tag where the person who is "it" is called Olangru. In my game, Olangru was the Olman word for "Boogeyman", he was around that long and was that well known.
While the Olman respect/fear him enough to potentially not do so, it wouldn't be a stretch for kids in Farshore to use the name Zotzilaha. Its on the map of the island thats hanging in the town hall.
A local legend of one of the couatls could also provide a name. Most are gone or in hiding, but they still can be occasionally seen.
If we are using Pathfinder dieties, I could see the following in children's games where a particular diety is prevalent:
Abadar, Erastil: Chaotic demons are "bad guys". Abadar might extend this to a particular devil who is good at making "bad contracts".
Pharasma: Daemons are the bad guys.
Sheyln: Her brother is the bad guy.
And so on. I could see any of the "important servants" being on the list too, like First Blade, Eternal Gravestone, the White Stag, etc.
An Erastil community could play "Poachers and Stags", where everyone pulls a strip of cloth from a bag, then goes and hides. There are red strips for the poachers, brown ones for the stags, and one white one. Poachers can "kill" stags, and the white stag "kills" poachers, but can't start hunting until at least one stag is "killed". Local preference and the nature of the children may alter the rules/numbers/etc.
tl;dr Your idea has merit, and could be a great way of giving PCs hints as to the local situation. Not much more than hints, but still.
Children's bed-time stories usually consist of some pretty scary crap. It's not too-much of a stretch that parents used them like the boogy-man
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B) Walk up and I ask if I can be Asmodeus.Little girl replies: "No, silly, daddy is Asmodeus!", with innocent childish grin.
......AHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Actually I may assume that they be getting schooled by a local preist, teaching them about how their patron good-guy deity/heroic paladin defended X against demon Y....
Really if the name of various celestial are know, it might be because they were favored servants for the region of a deity.
Vise Versa, maybe some demon lord or just some known stock demons are known bogey men of the past. Imagine every century they return to wreck havoc on the nation only to be banished by heroes for a century. All the more telling in their infamy if they say aren't among the most powerful, but stew up so much terror.
I think a more important question is: what do your players expect. All the internet theory-craft wont help if your players are used to you using such events as background. What kind of hooks have you used before? Are your players the kind that like to investigate your world?
And most important: Have you been consistent with your world's logic so far? If your players are used to little things not making sense, they are likely to assume that this is just a slip-up on your part.
i'd say that using angelic names that are more obscure will be a clue. There's generally moe of an interest in demon names, so players may just assume they're common, but using some random angelic name of a deva would say "OBSCURE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ANGELS HERE" guess why!
+1 to all of this. Definitely stealing these ideas.
Why in the world wouldn't they know the names of some demon lords, etc? Seems like they'd be a part of the folklore and mythology, at least if they had impact of the world.
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Why in the world wouldn't they know the names of some demon lords, etc? Seems like they'd be a part of the folklore and mythology, at least if they had impact of the world.
It depends, particularly with the more obscure figures. The planes are a big place, and not everything out there is going to be readily known(or even can be) on all material worlds.
Knowledge of demon lord names can be a double-edged sword, both for innocent mortals and the demon lords themselves.
Demon lords might want their names out there, because they want the infamy and because the PR gets them larger flocks. Especially for guys that are about beating towns to death with other towns and stacking bodies as high as they'll go. That's for the more obvious and straightforward demon lords.
More subtle demon lords may want to rein that in. They want it to be easier for their names to slip in under the radar and have an easier time posing as....well anything that would seem a better idea to worship than an obvious demon lord. That makes it easier for them to get their hooks in.
For mortals, widespread knowledge of demon lord names can make it easier to spot and out those more subtle demon lords, though often it's going to be the M.O. that identifies them rather than the name, because any demon lord worth their salt is going to rocking some aliases.(and probably harder to spot than say...Sucro or Alucitcon) "Know thy enemy" would be in play here.
On the other hand, maybe in some cases ignorance of some subjects is safer. In a world where names can have power, letting kids know the names of powerful chaotic evil entities could be like leaving a loaded gun on the table. When Team Good stamps out a demonic cult or a demon lord itself, it's not that rare for them to also try and stamp out any sign of that demon lord or its name. They try to remove its mark from history, their culture, their world, and their lives, so that it can never be found again and renewed. Sometimes that works, an the wounds heal and it's forgoteen, never to return again.
And sometimes it comes back anyway and people were better off being prepared and aware.
It's a balancing act for both, and there's probably no shortage of conflict over which is the best way to go.
Like it was said upthread: Orcus? That one's obvious, everyone knows him. Sifkesh? What the hell are innocent children doing knowing about her? Cue the worries.
OP, I'd second the use of usually obscure celestial names as well. That seems to be a more telling fit actually, IMO and all that.
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Considering their parents are good people (they worship the Eladrin/Azata), they probably would know more celestials, yeah. You figure the kid who gets stuck being Obox-Ob is actually going to be kind of skeeved.
@Knight Magenta: This is a campaign that hasn't started yet, so I can't answer that precisely. Those of my players who have played with me extensively (about half of them) would probably get that I'm dropping a hint. The others haven't really played D&D with me since high school, when I was a lot less sophisticated as a DM.