well, as far as i see it, your DM has it right. your talking about quite a bunch of mithral here. should you ever melt that armor down (using your numbers) and make it into actual mithral coins, you'd end up with a lot more than what you've initially paid for the barding (works even better with regular armor).
mithral is not a feature like an enchantment that can just be added to an item i.e. you don't just smear a certain amount (as given in the table) of stuff on the item in question. it must actually be "made" from that stuff.
my group calculates mithral items' values by (final) weight. costs a whole lot more, but we're all fine with that ;)
I also think that your DM has it right, i don't want it to be so but i can't find anything to help it.
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I'm looking into outfitting my Tiger with (eventually) Mithral Full Plate.
Armor for Unusual Creatures: "Refer to the appropriate line on Table: Armor for Unusual Creatures and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question."
So what is "armor type" ?
Barding, Medium Creature and Large Creature: "Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table: Armor and Shields."
Table: Armor and Shields lists things like Studded leather, Chainmail, and Full plate.
Further, Table: Donning Armor lists the following armor types: Shield (any), Padded, leather, hide, studded leather, or chain shirt, Breastplate, scale mail, chainmail, banded mail, or splint mail, Half-plate or full plate.
Thus we know that "armor type" refers to, specifically, the type of armor, being full plate.
So we apply the multipliers to cost and weight for full plate:
For a Large Nonhumanoid,
Cost: 1,500 gp x4
Weight: 50 lbs. x2
Mithral has an Item Cost Modifier, it doesn't change the cost of the item, it just adds a GP value to it.
So Large Nonhumanoid Full Plate Barding costs 6,000 gp and Mithral adds +9,000 gp to that, resulting in 15,000 gp, and weighing 50 lbs.
Since the Unusual Creatures modifiers are applied to the Armor Type, not the finished product, I think you multiply the base armor item, then add mithral afterward.
Although I know mithral armor is not 100% mithral (padded undercoat, leather, and plain iron or steel for the riveting and certain other non-vital areas), you can generally assume that if melting the armor down into mithral would give you a greater $ value than leaving it as armor, you've got the wrong value.
Mithral Shirt costs 1,100 gp and weighs 10 lbs. At 500gp/lb for Mithral, melting the shirt would be worth 5,000 gp.
I'm not sure if the CRB specifies that the +9000 is specifically for Medium heavy armor - and if it doesn't, that may have been a simple oversight. One possibility is to double the 9000 for the size increase (you do need more mithral), but apply the (quadrupedal) exotic armor cost seperately. That'd be, let's see, ([1500 + 9000] x2) + 1500 = 22,500 gp.
This math doesn't make any sense to me at all. If you double the mithral cost (why?) you've got (1500 x 4) + (9000 x 2) = 24000
That's the entire point. A mithril chain shirt isnt completely mithril. Part of that weight is a padded undershirt, leather straps, etc. Logically, if the entirety was mithril, no one would ever make a mithril chain shirt, since you could just get 5x the cost from selling the base product. We're past 6 int here, folks.
That's the entire point. A mithril chain shirt isnt completely mithril. Part of that weight is a padded undershirt, leather straps, etc. Logically, if the entirety was mithril, no one would ever make a mithril chain shirt, since you could just get 5x the cost from selling the base product.
Right, so you generally can't assume that if melting the armor down into mithral would give you a greater $ value than leaving it as armor, you've got the wrong value.
The correct method is not A or B, but close to A. Remember: "Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."
The +150 gp cost for masterwork is included in the +9000 gp cost for heavy mithral armor. That masterwork cost isn't multiplied.
So, the cost of a suit of large, non-humanoid mithral full plate is (1500 + 9000 - 150) * 4 + 150 = 41550 gp.
The correct method is not A or B, but close to A.
Can you explain what leads you to feel this way? Rules, balance, simulationism?
Rules: As above, mithral is a flat cost based on it being heavy armor.
Balance: Using your version, the difference in cost between Large Nonhumanoid Full Plate Barding and the Mithral version of the same is over 35kgp, which is nearly the cost of +6 worth of enhancement bonuses.
Simulationism: It seems like charging nearly the entire life savings of a level 9 adventurer for non-magical horse armor isn't something a smith could really get away with. Especially for something that, in PFS, is freely available at shops in any city of significant population. This one is the hardest to rebut, because it could be totally valid in a campaign where mithral is extremely rare, and it would take parties of fairly high level adventurers to get enough to use. But as a general rule it doesn't make much sense to me.
I would go with 1500 x 4 + 9000 x2 = 24000.
My reasoning it that the cost is doubled for being exotic because exotic armor takes more time to design and fit to the creature. The size of the creature also doubles it again because it requires twice the materials. Now when it comes to the cost of mithril, the armor being exotic doesn't really increase the amount of mithril it takes, but the creature being large should. The RAW doesn't explicit state this, but I would expect armor for a large creature to require more mithril than armor for a medium creature. Hence, I would apply the 2x for large humanoids to the cost of making the armor mithril.
Note, this is the area of custom item creation, so the "rules" are more loose guidelines than actual hard and fast rules.
For a large tiger, I would really look at getting a mithril breastplate. 200 x4 + 4000 x 2 = 8800 gold for a +6 armor that counts as light armor.
My inclination is that the intent was (1500+9000)x4. I'm not sure if I have anything to back that up right now, but that's the impression I came away with from a quick rereading of the rules. I'll see if I can pull specific quotes later.
The correct method is not A or B, but close to A.Can you explain what leads you to feel this way? Rules, balance, simulationism?
Rules: As above, mithral is a flat cost based on it being heavy armor.
Balance: Using your version, the difference in cost between Large Nonhumanoid Full Plate Barding and the Mithral version of the same is over 35kgp, which is nearly the cost of +6 worth of enhancement bonuses.
Simulationism: It seems like charging nearly the entire life savings of a level 9 adventurer for non-magical horse armor isn't something a smith could really get away with. Especially for something that, in PFS, is freely available at shops in any city of significant population. This one is the hardest to rebut, because it could be totally valid in a campaign where mithral is extremely rare, and it would take parties of fairly high level adventurers to get enough to use. But as a general rule it doesn't make much sense to me.
Rules. The pricing I described was how it worked in 3.5, and the wording didn't change at all from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Though you are right that from a balance perspective, it's very expensive. Though, I've never seen anyone use any barding heavier than breastplate, and perhaps this is why.
Rules. The pricing I described was how it worked in 3.5, and the wording didn't change at all from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
"Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures (such as horses) have different costs and weights from those given on Table: Armor and Shields. Refer to the appropriate line on Table: Armor for Unusual Creatures and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question."
Line 1: Large Full plate Barding has a different cost than Full plate.
Line 2: Apply the multiplier (x4) to the cost of Full plate.
Large Full plate Barding is Heavy Armor, so the Mithral Item Cost Modifier is +9,000 gp.
By adding 9,000 gp to the cost of Large Full plate Barding (6,000) you get the total cost of the item: 15,000 gp.
But why do you apply the multiplier before adding the cost for mithral?
But why do you apply the multiplier before adding the cost for mithral?
Because mithral is not an armor type.
It says to look up the item on "Table: Armor and Shields" and apply the multiplier to that cost and weight. The only relevant item on that table is "Full plate" not "Mithral Full plate" so you apply the multipler (x4) to that cost (1500) resulting in 6000.
If it helps, a Small Mithral Breastplate costs exactly the same as a Medium Mithral Breastplate, even though it should use far less raw mithral.
In 3.5, the mithral cost was multiplied, and the wording was the same as the passage you quoted.
Also, the cost of a small mithral breastplate doesn't seem too relevant. A small ordinary breastplate costs the same as a medium ordinary breastplate, even though it uses less raw materials. A small mithral weapon costs less than a medium mithral weapon, *because* it uses less raw materials.
In 3.5, the mithral cost was multiplied, and the wording was the same as the passage you quoted.
Looking at the d20srd it looks the same to me, so the same logic should apply.
d20 Armor For Unusual Creatures: "Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures have different costs and weights from those given on Table: Armor and Shields. Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question. "
d20 Table: Armor and Shields lists only Full plate, not Mithral Full plate, so the multipliers to cost and weight can only be applied to Full plate.
d20 Mithral has a flat Item Cost Modifier based on Type of Mithral Item.
Is there a different part of the 3.5 rules that says the mithral cost is multiplied?
The 3.5 FAQ said that the mithral cost (minus the masterwork cost) is multiplied.
Sorry for not mentioning earlier where I was getting this.
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The 3.5 FAQ said that the mithral cost (minus the masterwork cost) is multiplied.
Aha, so it does.
On page 217 of the DMG, it states that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state that items made from such material are masterwork quality and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed. How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my warhorse cost?
A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the special material price before applying the multiplier for any unusual size or shape of the intended wearer.
For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures chart on page 123 of the PH, a set of chainmail barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for armor [150 gp], times 4).
What kills me is it says "A strict reading..." while an actually strict reading doesn't multiply the mithral at all.
But that's clearly the intent for 3.5, and since they didn't change it for PFRPG, I guess we can assume it's the intent here as well.