Myth? "Monks' unarmed enhancement is more expensive"


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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TLDR:

Seems like people always complain that Amulet of Mighty Fists (AOMF) is so expensive, penalizing monks much more than normal martial classes. A +2 AOMF is 20k, whereas a +2 weapon is 8k, +3 is 45k vs 18k. But as far as I can tell, CL20 permanent Greater Magic Fang would cost ~12k and be just as good as a +5 AOMF. I see no reason you can't get AOMF on top of that, stacking the +5 from GMF with AOMF giving a cheaper enhancement cost at all but the lowest levels, when compared to weapon enhancement costs.

Basically I'm trying to figure out if there is any validity to the idea that monks are screwed over by the cost of AOMF, or can we lay it to rest?

2k gold: your fighter buddy gets his +1 weapon
5k gold: you get your flaming amulet of mighty fists
8k gold: fighter gets +2 weapon
18k gold: fighter gets +3 weapon, you get +5 flaming unarmed strike
137k gold: you have +10 effective enhancement and your friends only have +8.
200k gold: friends finally catch up and have +10 weapons.

And it's really not even as bad as that, since you ought to be comparing yourself to the TWF buddy who is getting his +1/+2/+3 at 4k/16k/36k...

Is there something I'm missing here? I've been thinking about this a couple days now, additional thoughts below.

Spoiler:

A naive approach would be to simply say that you hire some spellcasting services, which costs you 10 x CL x SL, buy GMF, permanency, and add in the component cost of the permanency. This works out to 10 x 20 x 3 (for gmf) and 10 x 20 x 5 (for permanency) + 7500 (component). Note that most of the cost comes from the components for permanency, so you might as well go with CL20 here and get the most bang for your buck.

However, a few problems come up that mean this doesn't actually work:

1. GMF and Permanency aren't actually castable by the same classes.
2. Level 20 spellcasters aren't actually easily accessible even in a metropolis (max level casting available is 8th, suggesting 15th level spellcasters)

Solution to both? Scrolls. The cost of the GMF scroll is 25 x 20 x 3 = 1500 = 75% chance to find for sale in a Large Town. Permanency for this type of spell is 25 x 20 x 5 + 7500 = 10,000 = 75% chance of being found for sale in a metropolis.
IMO this makes more sense than going to your local godlike level 20 caster anyway :)
From here, you just need someone with a +30 in umd to take 10 on these scrolls (UMD DC40), pretty easily accomplished by a bard, say level 11 (+11 ranks, +3 class skill, +6 skill focus, +5 base modifier, +2 headband of cha, +3 circlet of persuation [yes diff slot from headband]) which means you pay him to take 10 on the two scrolls and boom, you have permanent +5 GMF for only 11500 invested.

Addressing concerns:

1. There's no rules for hiring someone to do UMD - Very true, but if you can find a level 15 spellcaster in a metropolis, surely you can find a umd optimized bard. Your dm would set the price, but considering the caster would have charged 10 x CL x SL, I think half that seems reasonable. This is the only thing that isn't completely RAW here, but seems perfectly reasonable

2. Dispels! This is the most common reason cited for not liking permanency. However there's something I think most people don't realize...

pfsrd wrote:
This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

Considering this is pretty affordable at low levels (before your friends get their +3 swords) you won't be facing a level 21 spellcaster any time soon. I personally haven't ever played past level 15. It's possible at really high levels that you would run into this but a) so what? you are slightly gimped the rest of combat, then another 12k to get it back is chump change at that level. Have someone with a spare GMF scroll to get you through combat if you are really concerned and b) if a level 21 caster wants to waste the time dispelling when they could be doing something FAR more useful, they are stupid and you should let them. On top of that they still have to make a DC31 CL check.

3. DR will suck! GMF doesn't let you bypass DR True, but there are other ways around this... use "align weapon" for alignment based dr. Your fists are Adamantine once you hit level 12, assuming you have monk's robes, which should be early enough. Silversheen oil for dr/silver. Cold iron is admittedly a big one, and I'm not actually sure if there's an easy way to deal with this unless someone has a suggestion. Seems like eating the DR might be the best solution, otherwise a cold iron temple sword or swap out your flamingholyfrostshocking aomf for a +3 aomf when needed.

4. It limits your flexibility at low levels, since you can't get a +2 flaming shocking attack like the fighter can. Yes, but we probably want all the "to hit" that we can get anyway, so I'm not too bothered by it.

Thoughts, anyone? Please explain how I'm wrong or go ahead and admit monks are the best ;)


What are you trying to stack? I am not getting it.


Amulet of Mighty Fists and Greater Magic Fang :) maybe I should go back and replace some acronyms...

Basically people look at AOMF price and freak out. I'm saying get permanent GMF instead, then get a nice AOMF after that.


Actually you can't take 10 on UMD unless you have some special ability.

But the most important reason is the high caster level, many DMs wouldn't have 20th level spellcasters lying around, oh and the scrolls with those spells who were specifically created with 20 caster level and not the minimum needed.... well there are a lot of things that seem a little out.

By the way when UMDing scrolls you first need to UMD the ability score, iirc the DC is smaller than the scroll activation DC but still there is one more roll on a skill that you can't take 10.

Anyway your idea is a very good one, even as a theoretical one.

So the costs are what? 11500 gp if you are going with two scrolls 20 caster level each 9100 gp if you go with spellcasting service.

Anyone remember what happens if you fail the UMD of a scroll activation?


Suppose I should have linked to some examples of people complaining about AOMF cost... trust me they are out there >_>


wraithstrike wrote:
What are you trying to stack? I am not getting it.

He means that you should get greater magic fang for numerical bonuses and amulet of mighty fists for abilities.


Wraithstrike: He is talking about that don't have to an enhancement bonus on an amulet of mighty fists. You could just have a holy, flaming, shock, thundering amulet (for a +5 bonus). That would then stack with the enhancement bonus from Greater Magic Fang. I, personally, do not like that you are able to do this. But it is allowed under the rules as written.

Oneplus999: A large part of why the amulet of mighty fists is priced so high is because it does not just affect unarmed strikes; it also applies to natural weapons. An item that only enhanced unarmed strikes and did nothing for natural weapons would be priced much cheaper, closer in fact to that of a normal weapon. In short, monks are forced to pay for abilities they don't use in order to use a signature magic item.

The simple solution? Remove natural attacks from the amulet. Instead, have a necklace of natural weapons (priced like the amulet of mighty fists) for critters and have a lower cost amulet for monks and unarmed fighters. Problem solved.

Master Arminas

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The problem is you are one dispel magic away from having to get a new permanent Greater Magic Fang cast on you again.


If we are talking about a monk and not a druid then you can use greater magic weapon instead of grater magic fang, that way you need one 20th level wizard instead of a 20th level wizard and a 20th level caster with greater magic fang (druid, summoner, ranger with the 3.5 feat practiced spellcaster).


Here are a few links:

Shouldn't monks have gauntlet proficiency?

monks fighting gloves

why is the amulet of mighty fists so expensive?

Master Arminas


oneplus999 wrote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists and Greater Magic Fang :) maybe I should go back and replace some acronyms...

Basically people look at AOMF price and freak out. I'm saying get permanent GMF instead, then get a nice AOMF after that.

I know what the acronyms stand for. I am asking what exactly are you stacking. In short I am asking for a numbers break down.


leo1925 wrote:
If we are talking about a monk and not a druid then you can use greater magic weapon instead of grater magic fang, that way you need one 20th level wizard instead of a 20th level wizard and a 20th level caster with greater magic fang (druid, summoner, ranger with the 3.5 feat practiced spellcaster).

I had thought of this but GMW isn't permanency-able :'(


master arminas wrote:

Wraithstrike: He is talking about that don't have to an enhancement bonus on an amulet of mighty fists. You could just have a holy, flaming, shock, thundering amulet (for a +5 bonus). That would then stack with the enhancement bonus from Greater Magic Fang. I, personally, do not like that you are able to do this. But it is allowed under the rules as written.

Oneplus999: A large part of why the amulet of mighty fists is priced so high is because it does not just affect unarmed strikes; it also applies to natural weapons. An item that only enhanced unarmed strikes and did nothing for natural weapons would be priced much cheaper, closer in fact to that of a normal weapon. In short, monks are forced to pay for abilities they don't use in order to use a signature magic item.

The simple solution? Remove natural attacks from the amulet. Instead, have a necklace of natural weapons (priced like the amulet of mighty fists) for critters and have a lower cost amulet for monks and unarmed fighters. Problem solved.

Master Arminas

This is what I was asking, but the post about the dispel magic is what I would have posted to counter it.


wraithstrike wrote:
oneplus999 wrote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists and Greater Magic Fang :) maybe I should go back and replace some acronyms...

Basically people look at AOMF price and freak out. I'm saying get permanent GMF instead, then get a nice AOMF after that.

I know what the acronyms stand for. I am asking what exactly are you stacking. In short I am asking for a numbers break down.

Ummm what? Not sure what you are asking for but ok...

Scroll of GMF CL 20 = +5 enhancement on unarmed strike for 1500
Scroll of Permanency CL 20 for GMF = 10k
flamingshockingwhatever AOMF with your remaining money
+some for scroll activation cost


I fully understand that AOMF is expensive due to natural attacks, and that many people propose homebrew "solutions" (amulet of unarmed strike, original brass knuckles) but my point here is that RAW, you can already easily get monk enhancements for even less than you can get on a normal weapon, so monks actually have nothing to complain about. No rules changes are necessary for this to work.


They can complain. Dispel magic makes that expensive after so many tries,and it gets more espensive in the long run. 20 level casters are not that easy to find either so finding one who will cast the spell for you is also an issue.


leo1925 wrote:

Actually you can't take 10 on UMD unless you have some special ability.

This is exactly the kind of poking-holes I was looking for ty :) I totally hadn't noticed that.

So here's a good way around it: Find a L15 sorcerer in the metropolis with a good UMD. Have them use the GMF scroll on the monk. If they fail and the scroll fizzles or mishaps... nbd, pay for another one, they are only 1500. Should only be like 20% chance of this happening.

Once GMF succeeds, it's only a DC21 to use the CL20 Permanency Scroll, easy peasy.

I suppose there's the 1/20 chance of a failure on the Permanency, but that seems worth the risk.

Silver Crusade

Why not do amulet of mighty fists and gloves of Greater Magic Fang?

Gloves of magic fang would essentially be a weapon bonus so they would be (bonus^2) * 2000.


wraithstrike wrote:
They can complain. Dispel magic makes that expensive after so many tries,and it gets more espensive in the long run.

Considering you can afford this at level 8, I think you will get a LOT of value out of this before you run into a level 21 spellcaster who can dispel it. Again:

Permanency wrote:
This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.
wraithstrike wrote:
20 level casters are not that easy to find either so finding one who will cast the spell for you is also an issue.

That's actually what I like about this solution, you never need to find a level 20th spellcaster, you just need an item made by one which, RAW, has a good chance of being found in a metropolis. And again, even doing this CL16 with +4 bonus, this is still very cost effective.


oneplus999 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
They can complain. Dispel magic makes that expensive after so many tries,and it gets more espensive in the long run.

Considering you can afford this at level 8, I think you will get a LOT of value out of this before you run into a level 21 spellcaster who can dispel it. Again:

Permanency wrote:
This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.
Quote:


That's actually what I like about this solution, you never need to find a level 20th spellcaster, you just need an item made by one which, RAW, has a good chance of being found in a metropolis. And again, even doing this CL16 with +4 bonus, this is still very cost effective.
Metropolis rules/prd wrote:


prd rules on caster availability:
Spellcasting: Unlike magic items, spellcasting for hire is listed separately from the town's base value, since spellcasting is limited by the level of the available spellcasters in town. This line lists the highest-level spell available for purchase from spellcasters in town. A town's base spellcasting level depends on its type.

Type Spellcasting
Metropolis 8th

The PRD disagrees with that 20th level caster just lying around in every metropolis

edit:clarification.


Just to be clear the dispel magic is for the permanency, not the item.


I can see a level 20 character in a metropolis. He isn't going to help you though unless you do quests for him.


karkon wrote:

Why not do amulet of mighty fists and gloves of Greater Magic Fang?

Gloves of magic fang would essentially be a weapon bonus so they would be (bonus^2) * 2000.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with that, except I'd probably say bonus^2 * 4 since you are effectively a TWFer. However, I'd also say that hiring a CL15 caster, who you can already hire to cast spells, to do a UMD check is much closer to RAW than creating a new item (yes I realize "new item creation rules" are in the book, but are still very outside the norm).


Robespierre wrote:
I can see a level 20 character in a metropolis. He isn't going to help you though unless you do quests for him.

That is the point I was making before he said the rules support it. These guys have(if they are not right now) taken on dragons, high level demons, invented artifacts, advised rulers of nations, etc. To think they are just going to put that on hold for random adventuring group number 100 is not going to happen.

There might be 2 or 3 in the entire world. I just don't see them dropping what they are doing anymore than a kingdom of nation would take the time to do you a favor, not because you are not important, but you are not a priority.


Can you even use UMD to emulate a caster level higher than your own character level? A 4th level rogue, for example, casting a 10d6 fireball from a scroll by emulating caster level 10? I've always thought that part was in there to emulate the minimum caster level the scroll required, not to pick and choose any caster level of your choice?

Master Arminas


Robespierre wrote:
I can see a level 20 character in a metropolis. He isn't going to help you though unless you do quests for him.

I agree it would be possible, but not "easily", by RAW. So yes, you could make your whole party go on an adventure just so your DM can justify giving you access to casting by a CL20 guy, but doing this via scrolls is only very slightly more expensive and much more convenient.


master arminas wrote:

Can you even use UMD to emulate a caster level higher than your own character level? A 4th level rogue, for example, casting a 10d6 fireball from a scroll by emulating caster level 10? I've always thought that part was in there to emulate the minimum caster level the scroll required, not to pick and choose any caster level of your choice?

Master Arminas

A 4th level rogue would have to pass a DC 30 UMD to emulate the caster level, and unless he has 13 cha or 13 int, he has to make a dc 28 UMD check to emulate the ability score too. Plus there's the cost (25x3x10=750g, which is a lot for a level 4) to do expected 35 damage with DC 14 for half. Seems pretty balanced to me, underpowered if anything, considering the high cost, high UMD DC, and low reflex save DC.


oneplus999 wrote:
Once GMF succeeds, it's only a DC21 to use the CL20 Permanency Scroll, easy peasy.

I am confused. The DC for UMDing scrolls is 20 + CL, right? So wouldn't the DC for a CL20 scroll be 40? Or am I just completely missing something here...


Merkatz wrote:
oneplus999 wrote:
Once GMF succeeds, it's only a DC21 to use the CL20 Permanency Scroll, easy peasy.
I am confused. The DC for UMDing scrolls is 20 + CL, right? So wouldn't the DC for a CL20 scroll be 40? Or am I just completely missing something here...

Sorry I should have quoted the rule on this, as this is all rather obscure:

pfsrd wrote:


To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully.

This is why I used a bard as an example in the original, but instead said use a sorc. The sorc would have this on her class list, but not have high enough CL, so its only a DC21.


oneplus999 wrote:


This is why I used a bard as an example in the original, but instead said use a sorc. The sorc would have this on her class list, but not have high enough CL, so its only a DC21.

However, I just noticed this is a CL check and not a UMD check. However, failure in this case doesn't waste the scroll if you make a DC 5 Wis check, so there's still a good chance you can pull this off without a problem.

Silver Crusade

Appropriately priced rituals for the monk to perform and directly enhance his own unarmed strike, done. Doesn't restrict them to punching. Doesn't make them feel like their monk-awesomeness was bought off a caster.

Lantern Lodge

a monk's unarmed enhancement IS already more expensive. the 2WF guy is paying for 2 weapons.

Weapon Bonus^2 + flat 300-400 gold per weapon +cost of special materials, +able to have backups

Vs.

Weapon Bonus^5 + loss of a precious Big 6 Slot +no oppurtunity for special materials and restricted chance of backup.

even at the early levels, the 2WF guy is rocking a better deal.


Luminiere Solas wrote:

a monk's unarmed enhancement IS already more expensive. the 2WF guy is paying for 2 weapons.

Weapon Bonus^2 + flat 300-400 gold per weapon +cost of special materials, +able to have backups

Vs.

Weapon Bonus^5 + loss of a precious Big 6 Slot +no oppurtunity for special materials and restricted chance of backup.

even at the early levels, the 2WF guy is rocking a better deal.

Huh? Did you read anything leading up to this post? Monk pays ~12k for +5 enhancement. A TWF would have to pay 100k to get two +5 weapons. Monk is way cheaper on enhancements from level 8 on.

Yes, this doesn't entirely avoid the other issue monks have with neck slots not being available for amulet of natural armor. That is still a big weakness for a monk who wants an effective +10 weapon. Your only options there, as far as I can tell are a) Someone casting barkskin on you b) keep the +5 GMF and just don't get the AOMF or c) create a custom item at the suggested +50% cost to put natural armor on a different slot than usual.


How is that monk paying 12K again? If it is the permanency thing that PRD quote I made said that is not going to happen unless a GM feels like being nice.


wraithstrike wrote:
How is that monk paying 12K again? If it is the permanency thing that PRD quote I made said that is not going to happen unless a GM feels like being nice.

Isn't the main objective to have fun? If the monk can't have fun because of inadequate weapons, aren't we sort of obliged to 'be nice' given a plausible solution? It looks like a great quest reward.


The OP was saying that the monk has no reason to complain. In order for his proposition to be true it should work without special GM allowances. Just because one GM does holds back that does not mean another will so the idea must stand on its own.

As for being nice the monk is not such a bad class anymore now that the APG and UC are both out.


I have found something, about the permanency being dispelled, the can only be dispeled by a higher caster level goes for personal peramanent spells, spells cast on others can be dispelled normally.
Unless i read something wrong.

Also from what i read if the user of the scroll is someone who has the spell in the spell list and fails the caster level check but succeeds on the DC 5 wisdom check then the scroll isn't wasted, correct?


Here's another potential problem. To get a +5 bonus to all attacks, you'd need to cast this 20th level greater magic fang on each of the monk's weapons. So that's two hands, two feet, head, two knees, two elbows, etc. If you get all of them in one shot, according to the spell description, they're all only +1.

Another point: the monk will still need to bypass materials-based DR. His level will eventually give him adamantine and lawful; he's still short on silver and cold iron, assuming he uses his amulet to get alignment-based abilities (e.g. holy).


Lathiria wrote:
Here's another potential problem. To get a +5 bonus to all attacks, you'd need to cast this 20th level greater magic fang on each of the monk's weapons. So that's two hands, two feet, head, two knees, two elbows, etc. If you get all of them in one shot, according to the spell description, they're all only +1.

You can cast it on the monks right foot, and then the monk can make all of their attacks with that same foot: flurry can be done one/no handed.


leo1925 wrote:

I have found something, about the permanency being dispelled, the can only be dispeled by a higher caster level goes for personal peramanent spells, spells cast on others can be dispelled normally.

Unless i read something wrong.

Also from what i read if the user of the scroll is someone who has the spell in the spell list and fails the caster level check but succeeds on the DC 5 wisdom check then the scroll isn't wasted, correct?

Correct on both.

The first one is a mistake by me! Thanks for pointing out, that's the reason I'm posting on the boards. That definitely makes this a little scarier, theoretically dispellable by a level 11 with a lucky roll, but a DM would still have trouble justifying such a dispel, when level 11 casters are going to have plenty of actual disable spells that have more than a 1 in 20 chance of working. At higher level, the 12k reapplication becomes even more trivial. You are still so far ahead of the game in terms of effective enhancement bonus/cost, I'd be fine with losing this every few levels if you have a particularly vicious DM.

For the second, yes :) I think I have that in a post a few levels up. So you have the relatively cheap GMF cast first, then the more expensive, but much less likely to get wasted, permanency, cast by a level 15 sorc who is hireable in a metropolis.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Doesn't greater magic fang say that if you have it effect everything, than it would only grant a +1 enhancement bonus? That's outright lousy.

Sure you could have multiple instances of it permanencied to yourself, but how many castings would it take? Two for your fists? What about your kicks, headbutts, elbows, and knees?

Seems like too much of a headache to me.


wraithstrike wrote:
How is that monk paying 12K again? If it is the permanency thing that PRD quote I made said that is not going to happen unless a GM feels like being nice.

Ah sorry there were a lot of quotes within quotes up there and I missed your actual message I think :) I assume this was about level 20 spellcasters not being available by RAW...

As I said, you don't need access to level 20 spellcasters. You need a 1500g item made by one and a 10,000g item made by one, and I don't mean by "special request" or anything.

pfsrd wrote:
Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week.

Both of these items (Scroll of CL20 GMF costs 1500, Scroll of CL20 Permanency with +7500 mats costs 10k) are below the 16,000 "Base Limit" of a metropolis, and so, by RAW, they can easily be found with just a few weeks searching.

Of course, it's still debatable whether such an item would be "common", but that's kind of irrelevant, considering the wording on the bolded area is very clear that this is ANY item under 16k. And again, if you have a problem with this being done at CL20, do it at CL16 and you're still very effective, just slightly more likely to get dispelled and 1 less enhancement.


Ravingdork wrote:

Doesn't greater magic fang say that if you have it effect everything, than it would only grant a +1 enhancement bonus? That's outright lousy.

Sure you could have multiple instances of it permanencied to yourself, but how many castings would it take? Two for your fists? What about your kicks, headbutts, elbows, and knees?

Seems like too much of a headache to me.

Well if you read it that way, it would still "work" but you would have to RP that you ONLY ever kick stuff with your left knee... but

Quote:

This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.

Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature's natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level).

I don't think this last bit is meant to apply to monks, since it specifically calls out natural weapons. So we clearly are using the top half of the description, which references regular magic fang:

srd wrote:

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.

The ambiguity is, is it "(one natural weapon) or (unarmed strike) of the subject..." or is it "one (natural weapon or unarmed strike) of the subject". I think this is debatable, but considering that unarmed strike isn't split up into unarmed strike (left knee), unarmed strike (right knee), unarmed strike (left calf)... etc, it makes more sense that this would apply to all Monk attacks IMO. But this would only really matter for RP purposes, since even if your DM says no, it's only one body part, a monk who can only attack with his left knee is just as effective.


Looking at it again, the fact that GMF doesn't call out unarmed strike in the sentence "you may imbue all of the creature's natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level). " makes me think there is only one explanation: You can't have more than 1 unarmed strike. Your whole body is 1 weapon for unarmed strike, for the purposes of enhancement (Like a CL20 +5 GMF).


About the dispel thing, let's all keep in mind that if you know what you are dispeling you can make a caster level check against the DC of the spell, which means that the scroll GMF and permanency are easier to dispel.

Scarab Sages

How is anyone dispelling Permanency or a Permanencied Greater Magic Fang? Dispel Magic can only cause a spell to reach the end of its duration. Permanency and Permanencied Greater Magic Fang's duration has no end.

At best you should be able to suppress it for 1d4 rounds like a magic Item.

Either way I feel both Pemranency and Dispel Magic are rather poorly written.


Bhrymm wrote:

How is anyone dispelling Permanency or a Permanencied Greater Magic Fang? Dispel Magic can only cause a spell to reach the end of its duration. Permanency and Permanencied Greater Magic Fang's duration has no end.

You pay too much attention on the wrong words, look at the "as if".

Also permanency clearly says that it can be dispeled.


leo1925 wrote:
About the dispel thing, let's all keep in mind that if you know what you are dispeling you can make a caster level check against the DC of the spell, which means that the scroll GMF and permanency are easier to dispel.

I don't see any way to apply that to this. Permanency has no saving throw, as in "Saving Throw none", so there is no DC. I guess you could argue that it's DC10+5+2=17? That seems pretty fishy to me though. Not to mention there's no way for them to know whats on you without doing detect magic and studying for a few rounds. Even then they don't know exactly what's on you. It'd be hard to argue that they can do such a dispel. I think it's meant more for when you observe a buff being cast, id it with a spellcraft check to know exactly what was cast, then dispel it. Since they weren't there for the permanency to be cast, they wouldn't have that kind of knowledge.


That's exactly what i meant, you can argue that the DC of a permanency is 15 from a scroll but much much higher from a 20th level wizard. I am not sure if this works but it's a thing that someone could argue working.
And you need only to name the spell in order to target it's DC so as long as the one dispeling knows that you have a permanency on a GMF it can work.


Lathiira wrote:

Here's another potential problem. To get a +5 bonus to all attacks, you'd need to cast this 20th level greater magic fang on each of the monk's weapons. So that's two hands, two feet, head, two knees, two elbows, etc. If you get all of them in one shot, according to the spell description, they're all only +1.

Another point: the monk will still need to bypass materials-based DR. His level will eventually give him adamantine and lawful; he's still short on silver and cold iron, assuming he uses his amulet to get alignment-based abilities (e.g. holy).

An unarmed strike is NOT the same as a natural weapon. Any creature (even a monk) only has one unarmed strike, regardless of whether they use fists, kicks, knees, elbows, or whatever. As such, unarmed strikes gets the full (up to +5 bonus) from greater magic fang.

I think people get confused because of how flurry of blows is worded with the virtual two-weapon fighting feats; the two are completely seperate, however. Flurry of blows, when used only with unarmed strike, is not two weapon fighting. Flurry of blows, when used only with a single monk weapon, is not two weapon fighting. Flurry of blows, when used in a combination of unarmed strikes and one or two monk weapons, is still not two weapon fighting.

It is a flurry of blows. There is a strong resemblence, but it is not the same thing.

And since an unarmed strike is always one weapon for a creature, the amulet of mighty fists is very much overpriced for a monk. But, like I said earlier, that pricing is because the amulet also applies to all natural attacks of the creature wearing it, and it is balanced for that purpose. Unfortunately, it is the only official way in the game to enhance a monk's unarmed strike, so he gets screwed.

As to the material DR point; any +3 enhancement bonus amulet or greater magic fang (not +3 worth of special weapon properties, but an actual +3 enhancement bonus) allows unarmed strikes and natural weapons to overcome DR/cold iron and DR/silver. A +4 amulet (or greater magic fang) overcomes DR/adamantine. A +5 amulet (or greater magic fang) overcomes DR/alignment. The key here is the wording under damage reduction, which states that an enhancement bonus of this level can overcome this DR (I am paraphrasing here). And in the amulet description, it says the amulet applies the enhancement bonus or special weapon property to unarmed strikes and natural weapons. So, it overcomes those types of DR, just like all other magic weapons.

And quite frankly, I am leary of anyone with UMD pretending to a 20th level caster for the purpose of scrolls. It just feels wrong and I will probably be putting a house rule in my game that you can only emulate a caster level up to your own character level. Not above.

Master Arminas

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