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Humans are significantly more powerful than the other races because the Vision rules are and always have been tedious, and I've never encountered anyone not on a message board that actually used them beyond "Does your party have a torch or a Light spell or something? Yes? Ok, good."
It sounds like a cop out, but it's true. Vision does not matter at, probably 90% or more of D&D/Pathfinder tables.
It's really funny actually, to me, that Humans are so awesome now, because I have to say, before 3rd edition, I don't think I ever saw a Human. Playing AD&D, I would often question why Humans were even included. They got nothing useful or valuable unless you A) actually got to levels that surpassed racial caps and B) actually enforced those asinine and arbitrary rules.
Pretty much every character in AD&D was an Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling Thief. Sometimes you'd see a Gnome Illusionist.
I wonder if humans being so crappy was what led to most people ignoring Vision rules--everyone had Infravision anyway, so it just wasn't a factor and nobody really thought about making it one when humans starting coming around.
And once 3rd came around, humans definitely starting showing up. Pretty much every non-caster was a Human. An extra feat AND skill is just too useful. Casters, of course, were whatever race boosted their caster stat.
In Pathfinder, Humans got the floating +2, thus becoming the defacto champs. The Half-Human races are often almost as good and a fine substitute, but I don't think they were ever better. So, yeah, there were still reasons to take another race for certain classes, but then APG came out.
Human favored class options are just far and away better than almost every other race's. They are essentially the only choice, now, for any Spontaneous caster or Barbarian.
And what do other races get as favored class options that are actually worthwhile? Well, Half-Orcs and Gnomes get the best Alchemist favored options (assuming you're a bomber), and Half-Elves get the best Summoner option (for Eidolon focused Summoners at least), but that's kind of it.
I don't know, I know people still play the other races, but with Vision being a near-universally ignored problem, I don't really see why, mechanically, except in a very small number of cases.
The best way to do the human sorcerer IMHO is to take the skill points until you get to higher level spells. The lower ones generally stop being used, but the skill points stay useful, well depending on the GM anyway.
Humans are excellent and very adaptable.
They are not better than EVERY OTHER RACE in EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE... obviously.
I would say from an optimization standpoint, builds I design end up as Humans about 30-40% of the time... which is a lot for one race (and im looking at bestiary stuff too not just CRB) but still, more often non-human than human.
Sorcerers/Oracles admittedly are more like 90-95% due to favored class bonuses.. but yeah.
Ain't no human gonna hold a candle to my Halfling Ninja...
I'm sorry mplindustries but when your answer is, "Well if you ignore the rules then humans are the best" then this is over -- you kind of ruin the argument with that.
However I don't know the number of times significantly lower level/CR opponents have heckled and hurt players in my campaigns simply because the monsters could see and the players couldn't, or the save throws failed by the human with the same roll that would have passed if he was a dwarf, or the spell penetration checks failed due to not having that extra +2 from being elf -- etc.
Humans are fine -- complete agreement. But they aren't head and shoulders over every other race (and not just because of the height charts either).
The best way to do the human sorcerer IMHO is to take the skill points until you get to higher level spells. The lower ones generally stop being used, but the skill points stay useful, well depending on the GM anyway.
I don't know, I doubt I would take the option to learn Cantrips, but I would still rather have extra 1st and 2nd level spells than a handful of skill points. There are plenty of those spells that stay relevant for 20 levels.
At level 1, you have: Grease, Silent Image, Charm Person, Feather Fall, Shield, Protection from Evil, Unseen Servant, Floating Disk, Toppling Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Liberating Command, Ant Haul, Summon Monster 1 to trip traps for you, heck, I'd rather have Touch of the Sea just in case than a single skill point.
At level 2, spells get even better: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Shatter, False Life, Spectral Hand, Alter Self, Pyrotechnics, Minor Image, Blindness/Deafness, Communal Protection from Evil, See Invisibility...
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Humans are excellent and very adaptable.
They are not better than EVERY OTHER RACE in EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE... obviously.I would say from an optimization standpoint, builds I design end up as Humans about 30-40% of the time... which is a lot for one race (and im looking at bestiary stuff too not just CRB) but still, more often non-human than human.
Sorcerers/Oracles admittedly are more like 90-95% due to favored class bonuses.. but yeah.
Ain't no human gonna hold a candle to my Halfling Ninja...
I think this sort of sums up everything doesn't it?
You don't find too many optimized builds that go for other races. When you do it's typically to exploit some favored class ability (half orc or gnome alchemists) to shore up the weaknesses in a class (non-martials going half orc for falchions) or to go down a very specific feat chain that is easier for that race (half orcs and natural weapon feats).
Can you tell I like my half races yet? :D
I'm sorry mplindustries but when your answer is, "Well if you ignore the rules then humans are the best" then this is over -- you kind of ruin the argument with that.
What argument? My argument was that Humans are the best if you ignore the rules and that most people ignore the rules, thus making Humans the best for most people.
If you actually use the Vision rules, then damn, good for you, I'm impressed. Humans are not the best in your game. Cool.
I don't think your results are typical, though.
I'm sorry mplindustries but when your answer is, "Well if you ignore the rules then humans are the best" then this is over -- you kind of ruin the argument with that.
However I don't know the number of times significantly lower level/CR opponents have heckled and hurt players in my campaigns simply because the monsters could see and the players couldn't, or the save throws failed by the human with the same roll that would have passed if he was a dwarf, or the spell penetration checks failed due to not having that extra +2 from being elf -- etc.
Humans are fine -- complete agreement. But they aren't head and shoulders over every other race (and not just because of the height charts either).
I agree with this. If you have a variety of situations then sometimes being any particular race is not going to be as good as being another race type.
Now if my GM ran a game with the same things most of the time I am going to naturally gravitate toward that option, and not I am not saying those that prefer humans have very games without variety. I am saying that while humans are often chosen in my games also they are not noted as being heads, and shoulders, or the "obvious choice" due to the things I throw at people.The only thing that is consistent is my game is grappling monsters. I really need to fix that.
The best way to do the human sorcerer IMHO is to take the skill points until you get to higher level spells. The lower ones generally stop being used, but the skill points stay useful, well depending on the GM anyway.I don't know, I doubt I would take the option to learn Cantrips, but I would still rather have extra 1st and 2nd level spells than a handful of skill points. There are plenty of those spells that stay relevant for 20 levels.
At level 1, you have: Grease, Silent Image, Charm Person, Feather Fall, Shield, Protection from Evil, Unseen Servant, Floating Disk, Toppling Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Liberating Command, Ant Haul, Summon Monster 1 to trip traps for you, heck, I'd rather have Touch of the Sea just in case than a single skill point.
At level 2, spells get even better: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Shatter, False Life, Spectral Hand, Alter Self, Pyrotechnics, Minor Image, Blindness/Deafness, Communal Protection from Evil, See Invisibility...
Whenever I am at a level when I am casting those spells I would agree, but later one when some of those spells have ran their course ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana, UMD, and so on would have been nice.
Of course this may just come down to group playstyle.
Witches are the only class, I think, that can take Extra whatever at level 1. It's nice for full casters and full BAB classes. The others are locked out of most of the useful combat feats.
I'm a 1st level Oracle with Extra Revelation and I disprove this message. ^_~
light sources mark you as a target in my games. sunder that torch, and suddenly darkvision becomes far more valueable... even if you're reasonably lenient on vision rules, and likewise i'd never take the darkness spell without darkvision or the like.
before i'm accused of being cruel as a dm by sundering the party's only light source, it's a smart move on the part of the enemy *cough tuckers kobolds cough* and i'd only use the tactic when that's a factor (no ooze is going to go and sunder the light source for example, and likewise orcs are generally more likely to smash the nearest person than target the light unless it's bright enough to cause discomfort for them.)
light sources mark you as a target in my games. sunder that torch, and suddenly darkvision becomes far more valueable... even if you're reasonably lenient on vision rules, and likewise i'd never take the darkness spell without darkvision or the like.
before i'm accused of being cruel as a dm by sundering the party's only light source, it's a smart move on the part of the enemy *cough tuckers kobolds cough* and i'd only use the tactic when that's a factor (no ooze is going to go and sunder the light source for example, and likewise orcs are generally more likely to smash the nearest person than target the light unless it's bright enough to cause discomfort for them.)
Good thing kobolds set on fire still count as a light source.
Whenever I am at a level when I am casting those spells I would agree, but later one when some of those spells have ran their course ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana, UMD, and so on would have been nice.
Of course this may just come down to group playstyle.
Yeah, because my point was that they never run their course. I would expect to cast every one of those spells for the majority of the game. The ones that have a save do need Heighten Spell to keep their usefulness up, but the rest are utility and buffs, which are always good regardless of level.
Witches are the only class, I think, that can take Extra whatever at level 1. It's nice for full casters and full BAB classes. The others are locked out of most of the useful combat feats.
No. I just skimmed the others and the vast majority (except one or two) only require a certain class feature. This may naturally limit you to higher-than-first but most don't, like Extra Rage only requires that you have the rage class feature. Others that you can get at level 1 is Extra Arcane Pool (Magus), Extra Bombs (Alchemist), Extra Cantrips or Orisons (most casters), Extra Channel (Cleric), Extra Evolution (Summoner), Extra Grit (Gunslinger), Extra Performance (Bard), Extra Revelation (Oracle), Extra Summons (Summoner). Lots of options.
Simple Answer: It depends on the feats available, whether or not you're using human alternate racial class bonuses, and the player's ability to plan ahead.
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Before the APG and alternate class bonuses gnomes and halfings were arguably better sorcerers and likely better oracles as well. Now however with the ability to learn an additional spell with your favored class bonus being a human is heads and tails superior to the other two.Do any GMs even allow such broken abilities?
I have yet to be in a game with a GM who disallows any apg favored class bonuses.
So yeah, you bet that gets used.
On the fluff side, I think it's fair that most player character are humans as it is the predominant race across Golarion and many other know fantasy universe. It was ackward in 1e and 2e that most adventurers were non-humans while humans was much more numerous than any other playable raceso. The changes brought to humans in 3e and further more in Pathfinder help reestablish a proper representation of the playable races as adventurers. Nothing prevents anybody from playing an all non-human party, as such thing do occurs, but it's just less frequent.
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On the fluff side, I think it's fair that most player character are humans as it is the predominant race across Golarion and many other know fantasy universe. It was ackward in 1e and 2e that most adventurers were non-humans while humans was much more numerous than any other playable raceso. The changes brought to humans in 3e and further more in Pathfinder help reestablish a proper representation of the playable races as adventurers. Nothing prevents anybody from playing an all non-human party, as such thing do occurs, but it's just less frequent.
I'm not all that fond of the humanocentrism, fluff-wise. If I'm running a setting, I tend to try to set it up so that the major races in the setting have comparable populations, and the big differences are regional.
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Humans are easily the best overall race. Some races are better than humans at certain classes (elf wizard is probably the best wizard), but overall humans are best.
I place half-orcs 2nd, and half-elves 3rd. All the other races are kind of closely lumped together. Halflings are probably the worse overall in the Core races.
Pumping your starting stats to 18 can be done with any race and point buy manipulation. But getting the 20 you want is impossible with all races. And even if it was possible, the -2 can really put a character in the danger zone of certain ability scores.
If players play by something I like to call "the rules", humans are just so solidly number 1. Extra feat is important. Extra skills allow 2 skill point classes to dump to 7 INT and still get their 2 skill points. Plus having Knowledge skills are pretty damn important, and every little bit of skill points I can get I want.
Humans being the best race and the most adaptable race is quite logical, since mechanically, they are usually no worse than 2nd in most classes.
I can agree that they are the best overall race, but the margin is not so wide as to say they are clearly superior, and always the best choice which is how I read Kelsey's comment.
With no response to my example of using a completely non human race to complete an adventure with the same amount of success as an all human party I think my point has been made though. :)
