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While I think that there is already a good number of 20-level base classes, I think that Pathfinder could benefit a great deal from adding a few more. Yes, the archetype system allows for a great deal of diversity and customization in addition to the choices that can already be made with a class. And yes, I know that WotC overdid it, but I think the issue with 3.5 class bloat was more with prestige classes than base classes. I don't want ten or probably even five more. But I firmly believe that Paizo could easily create 2 or 3 more truly distinct classes. With the possible exception of the witch and wizard, I don't think any current classes have too much overlap.
So, should there be more classes, even just a few? I would like to see an 8+int skills class without a sneak attack derivative that took a different approach than the rogue. Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list. Thoughts, suggestions, criticism?
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A Shapeshifter is currently the most unique new base class I can think of. And I mean a true shapeshifter. From level 1 they can shift into some stuff to get minor bonuses, then as they level they add more and more forms until, at 20th level, they are able to shift to any form that any polymorph spell describes as a free action once per round. Basically, an (Su) form of Shapechange that doesn't get stuck on "core rules only". For added bonus, let them add properties to the form it didn't originally have, like a new natural attack (to a maximum of, say, 5) or a new sensory ability (darkvision, scent, etc) or even more subtle things like change color (I'm a red dragon... GOTCHA! I'm a white.)
As you say, a spontaneous druid would be interesting. If they really wanted to go crazy they could introduce psionics.
EDIT: The shapeshifter would probably use the form changing as their "Rage", and the adding of additional abilities as their "Rage Powers", though they'd probably get fewer of them (once every 3 levels instead?). I mean this in the context of how to design them to stack up next to existing classes. If you really wanted to go wild, make the shapeshifter ignore all existing polymorph effects and work by having the shifter select from a list of things they can apply when they shift, with some sort of limitation of course. This would prevent the "look like a dragon" stuff, though, so I'm not sure I'm okay with that.
your 8+ skill class that went a different route than sneak attack is called a bard. They get 6 + versatile performance to cover 2-3 more. Its effectively 8-9 skill ranks per level
I agree with the shapeshifter, but beyond that, I can't think of any other very good ideas.
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Ooh! How about a mage who gets a weird set of spell-likes that boost martial prowess, but gets no normal spells. Basically everything is a self-buff or mimics a normal martial attack in some way. Might make more sense as (Su) abilities.
You attack what you think is a squishy looking fellow, but they suddenly sprout glowing force claws and tear you up.
Kind-of the inverse of monk: Instead of using martial ability to get psuedo-magical powers, they use psuedo-magical powers to get martial ability.
This sort-of overlaps with the classic Eldritch Knight, but would probably play differently enough to justify a new class (at least, I think so).
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Theres a couple of 'Inventor' or 'Gadgeteer' 3pp ideas knocking around. Maybe a class that takes advantage of the frontier tech being developed in Alkenster and Quantium, or the Alien tech harvested from Numeria. Something that masters the Craft feats and that allows you to make stuff quicker, cheaper and better. A talent tree based around different types of things like Golems or other constructs would also be fun. A clockwork/steam-powered companion or familiar maybe?
Finally towards later levels they'd maybe get some sort of 'prototype' or 'alien' weapon profficiencies for wielding tech like the Gnome weapons or the kinds of tech hinted at in the Mi-Go article in Carrion Crown.
After that your gonna be revisiting old 3.5 and 3pp stuff...
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I'd like to see Paizo's take on the Artificer and Factotom base classes.
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The answer depends entirely on the ideas for new classes.
If they can surprise me with something original that fills a need in the lineup for character types, then absolutely. I do not currently believe that's possible, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
I love everything stabbity doom is suggesting. The shapeshifter sounds all sorts of cool, and the magic warrior guy you're describing sounds like incarnum, which was my favorite thing from 3.5.
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Seconding a shapeshifting class. Would prefer if it didn't have spells either.
How could it possibly shapeshift without using some form of magic? (Remember, alchemy is still magic, even if it isn't.)
Seriously shape shifter isn't a class thing. You've already got druids, polymorph spells and magic items.
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I agree with the shapeshifter
I would like one new base class a year
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Swashbuckler
It's generic enough that it doesn't have to be a pirate. It can be any light weapon wielder or two light weapons wielder. It can have Luck Feats and stuff like that. It can be the only Full BAB with a good REF Save with a weak FORT. It can buckle all the swash.
Spirit Shaman (Alternate Druid)
It's generic enough to be any culturally based Nature/ Divine caster with, instead of an Animal Companion, a "Spirit" companion that can be of an Elemental Spirit or a Ancestral Spirit or Alignment Spirit or one of a good handful of others. Archetypes just aren't enough for this need.
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Seconding a shapeshifting class. Would prefer if it didn't have spells either.How could it possibly shapeshift without using some form of magic? (Remember, alchemy is still magic, even if it isn't.)
Seriously shape shifter isn't a class thing. You've already got druids, polymorph spells and magic items.
Yes, because being a nature-y guy or being a caster is totally something every shapeshifter wants to do. Actually, I'm pretty sure MOST shapeshifting focused character concepts would prefer to avoid either of those paths if possible.
Also, neither of those are full BAB, and a martially-focused shapeshifter should totally be full BAB.
But yeah, it'd be magic-esque (I presume an (Su) ability, like a less restrictive version of wild shape that you get starting at level 1).
If you want to shapeshift-like without looking like a nature freak, barbarian with totems already do the job wonderfully while being litteral beasts in combat.
See the link to your archetype thread above. You have a Druid archetype for this, no?
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If you want to shapeshift-like without looking like a nature freak, barbarian with totems already do the job wonderfully while being litteral beasts in combat.See the link to your archetype thread above. You have a Druid archetype for this, no?
I have. But people here probably want -official- content... or things that can already be done with enough rules-fu without knowing it. :)
Seriously, there is currently no need for a full-bab shapeshifter base class.
I think that there are a couple new base classes (artificer, swashbuckler) that we could use, but only a couple. We don't need a whole bunch more. Most of what is being discussed here (shapeshifter, more spontaneous casters) can be done with archetypes or alternate classes, and therefore do not need new base classes.
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If you want to shapeshift-like without looking like a nature freak, barbarian with totems already do the job wonderfully while being litteral beasts in combat.See the link to your archetype thread above. You have a Druid archetype for this, no?I have. But people here probably want -official- content... or things that can already be done with enough rules-fu without knowing it. :)
Seriously, there is currently no need for a full-bab shapeshifter base class.
I disagree. While a druid can wild-shape, they are inexorably linked to nature (and full casting). While an arcane caster can shapeshift, their BAB is too terrible to do a whole lot with it without severe min/max.
The need is there because I want to see someone be able to pull a Liu Kang and fight someone by shifting into a dragon first (or something of that sort). All approaches that currently exist offer full casting (or very very close to it), none offer a full BAB, and none look remotely like a shapeshifter until at least level 3-4.
A barbarian rages and calls it his shtick at level 1. Why can't a shapeshifter exist to do their shtick at level 1?
Alternate Barbarian class that replaces rage with animal shapeshifting. BAM. There you go.
I actually really liked the Shaman and the Avenger from 4e. While I can replicate the Avenger with the Inquisitor, I haven't found the druid shamans to be to my liking. I'd really love to see a shaman with a spirit companion.
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I disagree. While a druid can wild-shape, they are inexorably linked to nature (and full casting). While an arcane caster can shapeshift, their BAB is too terrible to do a whole lot with it without severe min/max.
Check my document. Master of many shapes druid loses 1 spell per level and her domain spells, in addition to having to focus on physical stats to stand on it's own, sacrificing her wisdom and thus her amount of spells : spellcasting "problem" solved, while keeping the mystic savage flavor.
Also, a hasted barbarian could pounce with 5 natural attacks per round at higher levels. By level 3 he could even have Gore + Claws + bite if half-orc. How is that not similar to shapeshifting ? You want all the advantages of changing shape but none of the inconvenients ? If you want butter and the butter's money, that's not how the system works.
And I don't think we'll ever see a shapeshifting class, because paizo clearly said that for the time, they basically let 3PP handle class options - that's not for nothing that no class options book is upcoming.
I would like to see the factotum redone, and not be so bad in combat without other splat books.
I would probably allow it to choose a class feature every so many levels, but make sure it never does it as well as the original class.
None for me thanks.
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I disagree. While a druid can wild-shape, they are inexorably linked to nature (and full casting). While an arcane caster can shapeshift, their BAB is too terrible to do a whole lot with it without severe min/max.Check my document. Master of many shapes druid loses 1 spell per level and her domain spells, in addition to having to focus on physical stats to stand on it's own, sacrificing her wisdom and thus her amount of spells : spellcasting "problem" solved, while keeping the mystic savage flavor.
Also, a hasted barbarian could pounce with 5 natural attacks per round at higher levels. By level 3 he could even have Gore + Claws + bite if half-orc. How is that not similar to shapeshifting ? You want all the advantages of changing shape but none of the inconvenients ? If you want butter and the butter's money, that's not how the system works.
And I don't think we'll ever see a shapeshifting class, because paizo clearly said that for the time, they basically let 3PP handle class options - that's not for nothing that no class options book is upcoming.
Congrats. The druid shaper is still a caster, and is still a nature character. You're implying that neither is a major character point, but I contend that both are very major character points.
And a hasted barbarian doesn't turn into a dragon, they don't turn into some form of horrific being to smash you, they just have a couple natural attacks and are really angry. With a bit of reflavoring it might rework as a psuedo-werewolf character, or something of that form, but it certainly doesn't accomplish a Liu Kang type character.
I want a character that looks like this:
1-20: Get various forms as you go, all (Su). Something like Alter Self at first level (which can grant 1-2 natural attacks, maybe), all the way to Shapechange at somewhere from 17-20th, with 20th landing you on "at will". This is your primary combat ability (much like Rage is a barbarian's primary combat ability).
3,6,9,12, etc: shapeshifting talents to specialize
Others: Other abilities to round out the class.
EDIT: The things you are saying would basically invalidate any martial character as a base class other than fighter by saying "Just make it some feats! There, no new base class!" It would also invalidate all alternate casters by saying "Just swap out the miscellaneous abilities and change the spell list. There, no new base class!"
The fact of the matter is, once you've heavily modified core parts of the class, it's a new base class. Replace Rage? It's a new class. Replace casting to enhance wild shape? Just make a new damned class.
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Congrats. The druid shaper is still a caster, and is still a nature character. You're implying that neither is a major character point, but I contend that both are very major character points.And a hasted barbarian doesn't turn into a dragon, they don't turn into some form of horrific being to smash you, they just have a couple natural attacks and are really angry. With a bit of reflavoring it might rework as a psuedo-werewolf character, or something of that form, but it certainly doesn't accomplish a Liu Kang type character.
I want a character that looks like this:
1-20: Get various forms as you go, all (Su). Something like Alter Self at first level (which can grant 1-2 natural attacks, maybe), all the way to Shapechange at somewhere from 17-20th, with 20th landing you on "at will". This is your primary combat ability (much like Rage is a barbarian's primary combat ability).
3,6,9,12,...
Monk with variant qinggong powers, and savage FoB. At least, THIS archetype would fill a gap. Will think about it.
A swashbuckling (that is a unified one, not a grab-bag of rogue and fighter archetypes) class would come really handy for my 16th-17th c. PF setting. Just saying. I'm working on one, but it would be easier to have one already out there with the Paizo imprimatur. (Kinda like the Rassilon imprimatur). I think this is fundamentally separate from the Rogue, because of the BAB issue.
A class with spell progression as a paladin or ranger, but with some arcane spells.
Thinking now, I liked that we got the magus which is like a base 20 Eldritch Knight. I would definitely like the same thing with the Mystic Theruge. A base 20 arcane/divine caster. Would be interesting.
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I want to see a warlocky class come back (although, since wizards owns that class it'ed have to be called something else), maybe done like this: warlock.
I want to see an official Pathfinder hexblade, although I did a conversion as well: hexblade
And I want a REAL assassin assassin, not that wimpy prestige class! I want to full bore base class James Bond style assassin with style!
And I want all of these with a nice pretty silk ribbon, preferrably red. Can I have it by Christmas, please?
Master Arminas
Alternate Barbarian class that replaces rage with animal shapeshifting. BAM. There you go.Cool. You've just made a new class.
I think it's more like the difference between the Rogue and Ninja.
And I agree with W E Ray and Jeff de Luna, I want an Errol Flynn style swashbuckler. Such as this: buckle me swash, matey
Master Arminas
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I think it's more like the difference between the Rogue and Ninja.Alternate Barbarian class that replaces rage with animal shapeshifting. BAM. There you go.Cool. You've just made a new class.
Not really. The Ninja still gets sneak attack and high skills, which are the two iconic abilities for rogue. The Ninja Tricks are basically Rogue Tricks with different flavor. They still get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. They basically lose Trap Sense and Evasion (but can still buy it easily), and swap out the capstone.
A barbarian without rage (and abilities that depend on it) has Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge (+Improved), Fast Movement and DR. Of these, Trap Sense would not be appropriate for a shapeshifter IMO, but the rest might be (DR is arguable, and fast movement isn't necessary as most forms will be faster than the humanoid one). However, the remaining class abilities represent such a tiny percentage of the original class that you may as well just make it a new class.
In other words, where Ninja keeps ~90% of rogue, removing rage from barbarian keeps only ~10% of barbarian (if that).
(Also, the shapeshifter I envision would not be restricted to animals, or even animal-likes. A best that would be one possible specialization route.)
Make the monk use wisdom for everything. EVERYTHING. Mad fixed.
Any Mental stat based fighter. Kinda like the duelist getting its Int bonus to AC.
Make the monk use wisdom for everything. EVERYTHING. Mad fixed.
I would prefer seeing every classes turned into MAD classes rather than seeing every classes turned into SAD classes. IMO, MAD classes are more elegant and allow a wider array of characer builds.
+1 Maerimydra. I thought from the beginning that combat maneuvers should have been based on Dex instead of Str--giving the fighter types more incentive to boost more stats than just Str and Con.
Master Arminas
I would like to see a divine champion with no spellcasting, a full BAB progression and the ability the choose from and activate a variety of defensive, offensive and battlefield control auras. NO alignment restriction please!
To StabbittyDoom: I don't get it, how would a character be able to shapeshift without using magic? It could be an interesting concept for a full or 3/4 BAB psionic class that use his/her mental power to step over the physical limits of his/her own body and reach the perfect form.
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I actually really liked the Shaman and the Avenger from 4e. While I can replicate the Avenger with the Inquisitor, I haven't found the druid shamans to be to my liking. I'd really love to see a shaman with a spirit companion.
I would suggest you (as well as all those looking for a druid type spontaneous caster) check out the Shaman class in the upcoming Spring issue of Kobold Quarterly (issue 21)
If they did it, it would have to be something that cant be easily replicated with an archetype.
The most unqiue things I can think of is a shaman, artificer and a int-based fighter like a swashbuckler
to that end, I would like to see another non-magic class
I actually really liked the Shaman and the Avenger from 4e. While I can replicate the Avenger with the Inquisitor, I haven't found the druid shamans to be to my liking. I'd really love to see a shaman with a spirit companion.I would suggest you (as well as all those looking for a druid type spontaneous caster) check out the Shaman class in the upcoming Spring issue of Kobold Quarterly (issue 21)
I'll have to check it out. I have the one from Super Genius Games and as cool as it was, it was kind of complicated and did seem like a lot more GM work.
Invoker was a cool 4e concept, though I guess Oracle replaces it.
No, please, no more base classes.
I think they should promote some of the existing classes to archetypes, like paladin, ranger, sorcerer, barbarian, bard, monk, etc. etc.
Archetypes are better because they can be layered onto one another, creating gestalt type multiclass characters; while multiclassing with base classes retards a character's overall ability progression.