My group just ended a Pathfinder session a little while ago. The party is currently chasing the BBEG through a thick forest. My Fighter's dead and we aren't in a position to raise her or bring in a new character at the moment, so I've been controlling the Druid's animal companion (a snow leopard). Right now there is 40 feet of distance between me and the BBEG, and a bunch of fallen tree trunks (this functions as a 4 foot high fence) is 5 feet away from the BBEG and in my path. Next session, I want to make a charge attack, jumping over the trunks and hopefully landing on the BBEG's back, and bite him.
However, I'm not sure what sort of action this is, or if I can even do it by RAW. Can I jump as part of a charge attack? Do I need to make a combat maneuver to knock the BBEG down if I land on his back? Which combat maneuver? Trip or grapple? Does making a combat maneuver mean I used up my attack and can't bite him? If I have to grapple, do I have to pin before I can bite him?
However, I'm not sure what sort of action this is, or if I can even do it by RAW. Can I jump as part of a charge attack? Do I need to make a combat maneuver to knock the BBEG down if I land on his back? Which combat maneuver? Trip or grapple? Does making a combat maneuver mean I used up my attack and can't bite him? If I have to grapple, do I have to pin before I can bite him?
1) It would be a charge attack as you have pointed out, and I think there is something about a jumping charge, though I am not certain. Either way It would be an acrobatics roll.
2) Yes you still need a CMB check to knock him down.
3) It would be a trip attack (unless he is being knocked into a wall then it can be bull rush).
4) Yes as per the rules on charging it is a full attack action and would be your whole turn. A leopard however gets a free trip if it lands its bite attack, so I would go with the bite attack and try to get a free trip.
5) You do not have to grapple.
Thanks. The bite/trip sounds nice. Can't believe I didn't notice that.
Now we just need to confirm that I can jump on a charge attack.
I have a racial bonus to acrobatics for being a leopard, so I can probably make whatever DC the GM decides to set for this. I just need to be sure that a jumping charge is allowed.
Don't forget about your sprint if he tries to run!
You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
Hey, I have pounce, grab, and rake! Pounce means I can full attack on a charge, grab means I get a free grapple if I bite him, and rake means I get two claw attacks on my next turn if I grapple him! All I need is a confirmation that I can jump while charging, and I will unleash a mountain of pain.
Don't forget about your sprint if he tries to run!
I don't have sprint.
I do have a climb speed. Can I use that to get over the logs on a charge if I can't jump?
There's no consensus on whether you can jump as part of a charge. The rules say nothing about it, so any argument for or against is due to interpretations of the charging text.
The rules do seem to imply that you cannot do so since your path is not clear.
Yes, but I have a climb speed and am currently a cat. A cat of my size should be able to easily jump it or just scramble over with my climb speed.
Hey, I have pounce, grab, and rake! Pounce means I can full attack on a charge, grab means I get a free grapple if I bite him, and rake means I get two claw attacks on my next turn if I grapple him! All I need is a confirmation that I can jump while charging, and I will unleash a mountain of pain.
That would mean you are a big cat instead of a small cat?
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The crux of the arguement is this (relevant text in quotes, bold is mine)
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
Some people believe that if you have to jump over something, something has hindered your movement, and therefore you cannot charge.
Some people believe that if you're jumping on a charge, the hindrance isn't there, because you've jumped over it. Thus you can charge.
This has been debated for PAGES. Over, and over, and over. You will not find a solid agreement. I highly recommend you ask your DM which camp he falls into, and go from there.
Hey, I have pounce, grab, and rake! Pounce means I can full attack on a charge, grab means I get a free grapple if I bite him, and rake means I get two claw attacks on my next turn if I grapple him! All I need is a confirmation that I can jump while charging, and I will unleash a mountain of pain.That would mean you are a big cat instead of a small cat?
Strange that you guys don't play with the animal companion stats laid out by paizo. You're not actually supposed to just pull them from the bestiary to play with, as a heads up.
The crux of the arguement is this (relevant text in quotes, bold is mine)
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.Some people believe that if you have to jump over something, something has hindered your movement, and therefore you cannot charge.
Some people believe that if you're jumping on a charge, the hindrance isn't there, because you've jumped over it. Thus you can charge.
This has been debated for PAGES. Over, and over, and over. You will not find a solid agreement. I highly recommend you ask your DM which camp he falls into, and go from there.
I don't think it is a hindrance, because a leopard can clear such an obstacle with ease IRL, and should be able to do so in game, too.
Strange that you guys don't play with the animal companion stats laid out by paizo. You're not actually supposed to just pull them from the bestiary to play with, as a heads up.
We normally don't pull them from the Bestiary, but I needed the buff from the Bestiary stats to be able to serve as the party's melee character for an extended period, so the GM let me use them.
I don't think it is a hindrance, because a leopard can clear such an obstacle with ease IRL, and should be able to do so in game, too.The crux of the arguement is this (relevant text in quotes, bold is mine)
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.Some people believe that if you have to jump over something, something has hindered your movement, and therefore you cannot charge.
Some people believe that if you're jumping on a charge, the hindrance isn't there, because you've jumped over it. Thus you can charge.
This has been debated for PAGES. Over, and over, and over. You will not find a solid agreement. I highly recommend you ask your DM which camp he falls into, and go from there.
Thats your opinion. Others disagree. There are no concrete rules on it either way, that's why I suggested asking your DM which interpretation he believes is valid. You'll note that I did not give my opinion on this, because honestly, its not a concrete situation, and one of the ones that a DM should be adjudicating. Thus, my personal opinion is irrelevant, there are no rules citations to really make a solid case either way. It's semantics, and you can honestly find a dozen threads on the subject.
I had this debate a while ago. I will post the short version of how I can to his conclusion or link it.
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You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.
link:
In another thread I explained it in great detail, but I am too lazy to look for the link. If needed I will look for it later though, but the short version that is above should cover it.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
The book disagrees. James does not trump the book. Only Jason and Sean do.
PS: I am Wraithstrike also. I just forgot to switch aliases. I don't want anyone to think I am posting as two different people.
However, I'm not sure what sort of action this is, or if I can even do it by RAW. Can I jump as part of a charge attack?
Up to the DM.
Do I need to make a combat maneuver to knock the BBEG down if I land on his back?
Yes. You cannot gain a combat advantage simply by declaring an action. You would have to declare a trip attack.
You cannot charge and grapple, as grapple is a standard action.
If I have to grapple, do I have to pin before I can bite him?
No, he will effectively be bitten as part of maintaining the grapple.
On top of that the charge rules says the line in between you can not have any obstacles. It does not say "if you can overcome the obstable...".
They need errata if they want it to work differently.
I had this debate a while ago. I will post the short version of how I can to his conclusion or link it.
However, the rule says "hindrance such as an obstacle", not "obstacle", and the obstacle is so easy for me to clear (I could jump it easily or use my climb speed to scramble over it) that it doesn't seem like it would be a hindrance.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
The book disagrees. James does not trump the book. Only Jason and Sean do.
PS: I am Wraithstrike also. I just forgot to switch aliases. I don't want anyone to think I am posting as two different people.
Please follow the link and notice that James post is marked for FAQ.
"Staff Response: No reply required."
You cannot charge and grapple, as grapple is a standard action.
I do, however, get a free grapple on a successful bite, so if I can jump on a charge I can just charge him and bite, then grapple him to the ground.
Do keep in mind that the BBEG must be medium or smaller for your grab ability to work, as you are a medium creature.
You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.
link:
JJ also said that his answers are as a GM, and that he is not a designer of the rules so his word should not be final
You cannot charge and grapple, as grapple is a standard action.I do, however, get a free grapple on a successful bite, so if I can jump on a charge I can just charge him and bite, then grapple him to the ground.
That works then.
Note that he's not on the ground even when you pin him. He's still standing up, just in a bear hug.
Grappling would be the cat sinking its teeth into his arm like a police dog. He still has one hand free he just can't move.
Pinning is wrapping him up tighter, but he's never technically prone.
JJ also said that his answers are as a GM, and that he is not a designer of the rules so his word should not be finalYou can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.
link:
No one is actually clicking the link are they? His post was in response to whether or not the rule had changed from the 3.5 FAQ ruling, according to him it had not, and whoever reviews FAQ flags agreed.
However, the rule says "hindrance such as an obstacle", not "obstacle", and the obstacle is so easy for me to clear (I could jump it easily or use my climb speed to scramble over it) that it doesn't seem like it would be a hindrance.I had this debate a while ago. I will post the short version of how I can to his conclusion or link it.
Such an obstable would include obstacle, but is not limited to obstacles. It would be like if I said you can not drink liquids containing caffiene such as sodas. That does not mean you can drink sodas.
The rules still say if the line from you to the target passes through an obstacle the charge can't happen. The section I quoted was just going into detail on that. The fact that you can overcome an obstacle does not make it not be an obstacle.
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge.
Yeah you can jump, but the spaced is still occupied. If it was not then you would not have to jump.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
The book disagrees. James does not trump the book. Only Jason and Sean do.
PS: I am Wraithstrike also. I just forgot to switch aliases. I don't want anyone to think I am posting as two different people.
Please follow the link and notice that James post is marked for FAQ.
"Staff Response: No reply required."
That is not a statement of support. I had the same thing said about a statement I made, but without a clarification saying I was right I don't think I can expect anyone to just go along with what I said.
Grab allows Kelsey to grapple as a free action.
Do keep in mind that the BBEG must be medium or smaller for your grab ability to work, as you are a medium creature.
The BBEG is human, so no worries there.
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You're a snow leopard, you say?
Hmmm.... not sure what the exact interpretations of the rules are, and actually don't care. You're a big hunting cat-- they do that sort of attack all the time in RL-- so (RAI over RAW, and it's totally cool, fun, and not breaking the game for the other players), if I were running the game, I'd let you do it. 'Sides, this is the RAI/'use a house rule when it makes sense'-- charging over such obstacles, leaping and making acrobatics/jumping checks mid-charge, are abilities that big cats like snow leopards really should have (IMO).
Charge with pounce, past an easily-jumped fence? You betcha.
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3.5 had a feat that let you make a jump check duping a charge (and get additional damage).
Also class abilities of acrobatic charge (can make acrobatics checks to move around obstacles while chrging)
To me those instances would imply you cant normally make checks for acrobatics while charging.
But personally I'd either let it fly because of "rule of cool", or shoot it down as "hand of DM shows up, bad guy gets away"
just to give you something fun to do until you are a pc again id say yes, jump and charge
dont abuse it further down the line
explain why to any frothing/pouting/bleating monk pc who is sulking cos he cant do this!!
play, play, play
That is not a statement of support. I had the same thing said about a statement I made, but without a clarification saying I was right I don't think I can expect anyone to just go along with what I said.Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
The book disagrees. James does not trump the book. Only Jason and Sean do.
PS: I am Wraithstrike also. I just forgot to switch aliases. I don't want anyone to think I am posting as two different people.
Please follow the link and notice that James post is marked for FAQ.
"Staff Response: No reply required."
So it doesn't agree with you so it doesn't count?
So it doesn't agree with you so it doesn't count?That is not a statement of support. I had the same thing said about a statement I made, but without a clarification saying I was right I don't think I can expect anyone to just go along with what I said.Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
The book disagrees. James does not trump the book. Only Jason and Sean do.
PS: I am Wraithstrike also. I just forgot to switch aliases. I don't want anyone to think I am posting as two different people.
Please follow the link and notice that James post is marked for FAQ.
"Staff Response: No reply required."
That is clearly not what I said. I am saying that statement that was given to threads that myself, and James was in, is not a statement of confirmation or denial.
If it is a message of confirmation then the devs should say so that when it appears, and I have seen it several times, that people at least have clear answer one way or the other. Every time that answer is used nobody ever really knows who was right.PS: How did you get answer from the bolded section from my previous post?
3.5 had a feat that let you make a jump check duping a charge (and get additional damage).
Also class abilities of acrobatic charge (can make acrobatics checks to move around obstacles while chrging)
To me those instances would imply you cant normally make checks for acrobatics while charging.
But personally I'd either let it fly because of "rule of cool", or shoot it down as "hand of DM shows up, bad guy gets away"
The acrobatic charge ability is what I was going to bring up next. I personally think it is cool to jump the wall though, but if I change the rule for the cat I would change it for everyone or at least allow all quadrupeds to be able to do it. I enjoy consistency personally.
There are a couple of monsters in the bestiary that can do some sort of jumping charge. There is certainly a precedent for it, but there is no mention of obstacles in the text and since that is what the discussion has become it holds little merit. There if your DM wants a precedent though.
That thread is the reason I don't envy game designers. He states it as clear as possible and they just continue arguing. Wow.You can not jump the fence on a charge, not legally anyway.
edit:there is a feat that might allow it though.
Wrong. James Jacobs has said jumping as part of movement to charge is fine.
link:
It has been officially said that James is not the rules guy, and his opinions have been rebuffed by the official rules guys several times. That is why his word is not to be taken as an official statement. I am not saying he does not know the rules, but James is more of "rule of cool" guy than a "this is what the book says" person.
edit:Once again only the rules devs get to trump the rule book, which is normally done by errata or an FAQ.
There are a couple of monsters in the bestiary that can do some sort of jumping charge. There is certainly a precedent for it, but there is no mention of obstacles in the text and since that is what the discussion has become it holds little merit. There if your DM wants a precedent though.
What monster is that? Does it have a special ability that allows it to do so? The bulette is the only one that comes to mind off the top of my head that might fit.
There are a couple of monsters in the bestiary that can do some sort of jumping charge. There is certainly a precedent for it, but there is no mention of obstacles in the text and since that is what the discussion has become it holds little merit. There if your DM wants a precedent though.What monster is that? Does it have a special ability that allows it to do so? The bulette is the only one that comes to mind off the top of my head that might fit.
Dire Corby From the Bestiary 3. Its the same ability.
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What about taking a move action to jump over the obstacle and reach the BBEG and then use an attack action ?
You will not be unleashing the Pounce (which includes the Rake BTW), but there will be no need for debating what the RAW is/should be.
Note that if I were the GM and my player begs me to do this, I would allow it and start planning an ambush of the party by stealthy big cats who will unleash their Pounce from behind a big rock at the flat-footed PCs.
Because Charge lets you move double your speed before attacking, and the BBEG is likely out of reach for a single move action. Otherwise, this wouldn't even be an issue.What about taking a move action to jump over the obstacle and reach the BBEG and then use an attack action ?
It says 40ft in the OP, a leopard can clear that. Or at least the leopard animal companion can, not sure about the bestiary one.