
Wiggz |
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Okay, that's not really true. I hate ~generic~ magic items. I hate running into town and stocking up on potions at the local five-and-dime. I hate characters pre-built with the presumption of having certain magic items available at certain levels as if they are part of the standard adventuring tool kit. It might just be me but I like the magical to be... magical.
In my campaigns, there really is no such thing as generic magic items. I allow for master work items, even to the point of additional 'tiers', i.e. +1 Masterwork weapons and armor and incredibly rare, incredibly expensive +2 Masterwork weapons and armor, most of which have a story of some sort behind them... certainly not so commonly available that every player is walking around with a full arsenal of them. Masterwork equipment too, like thieve's tools which theoretically could be found anywhere from improvised (-5 skill checks) to tools that offered bonuses of +1, +2 or even +5.
Expendable magic items like potions aren't unheard of in my campaigns, but they often take various forms depending on the culture from which they originate, like elixirs that can be drunk, small clay tablets stamped with runes that must be broken to be used or little paper oragami pieces who's shape give a clue to their use when unfolded... but to gain access to more than the rare 'drop' of any of them, you need a 'source', which often involves a quest of some sort and serves as a nice non-monetary reward for achieving some goal... and even then of course, the supply is limited.
When it comes to non-expendable magic items like weapons or wondrous items, most members of the group tend to only acquire a couple at best, though I generally make up for that by making the items more powerful and more uniquely suited to the character. I also often create items with multiple powers that become apparent as the character in question gains in experience, allowing signature items to become identifiable with its weilder for the duration of the campaign.
I find the end result is a campaign where magic becomes this precious thing, where characters aren't utterly dependant a magical arsenal to be successful, where presumptions aren't made by playes because they've been reading up on their 'Adventurer's Vaults'...
A typical fighter in my campaign might have:
A +2 (nonmagical) suit of Masterwork plate armor that was found after discovering the final resting place of a reknowned ancestor, recognizable by its anachronistic style - a style once made famous by a knighthood which has since fallen into disrepute.
A bag of carved bones around his neck that a witchwoman once sold him 'for luck' that serves as a Cloak of Protection might except that it grants a +1 to saves for every 4 levels the character has reached.
A legendary magical Greatsword found in a dragon's horde that doubles his Strength modifier when he wields it and grants the feats of Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder to the bearer.
A small pouch of clay tiles that were inscribed with magical runes by a Dwarven mystic he had befriended. It might include several that functioned as potions of Cure Serious Wounds, a couple that functioned as potions of Bear's Strength and one that could teleport him back to the mystic's village in the Underdark. All would have to be broken to activate.
That would be it for most of his early and middling adventuring career, at laest until level 12 or so.
Am I alone in thinking that the magical has lost its mystique? Any other ideas out there for keeping it from falling into the mundane realm of 'improved equipment'?

Wiggz |

Thats pretty much what I do, though the encounters take very little adjustment (I don't generally use pre-prepared adventures anyway). The result is that that characters have to be a little smarter about when and how they fight and I don't have as big a problem with 'broken' characters as others seem to.

Adamantine Dragon |

I used to have a bias against magic items. I had the belief that too many magic items at the local Magic 7-11 store made the game lose it's fantasy flavor.
I don't feel that way anymore. Now it's all about what level of magic I want in a particular campaign. Some areas in my campaign world have very little magic, some have a lot. Some have very few enchanted items, but due to local hedge witches or whatever have a decent supply of potions and elixirs.
These days I feel that a heavy magic campaign is sometimes preferable to a low magic campaign. The commonality of magic items changes the nature of the game such that I have to work it into the local economy for it to make sense. But when I do that, and magic is common, I have magic woven into the infrastructure of the culture. Magic fountains, magic streetlights, magic toilets... I find that when magic is everywhere you can create an entirely different flavor of fantasy, one that is every bit as "magical" as the low magic campaigns. The largest city in my world has what is essentially a magic mass transit system to whisk people around the city. The king uses magic to spread his announcements. Kids have magic learning devices. Doors open automatically for people... etc.

Evil Lincoln |

How is making armor +2(nonmagical) and different than keeping it magical?
Ambiance. Some people just don't like hyper-magical settings, and both Golarion and the implied setting of the core rules are pretty danged magic-rich.
If the GM is willing to do the cleanup work that comes with changing the CR assumptions, more power to them. I see no obvious reason why this doesn't work.

Wiggz |

I used to have a bias against magic items. I had the belief that too many magic items at the local Magic 7-11 store made the game lose it's fantasy flavor.
I don't feel that way anymore. Now it's all about what level of magic I want in a particular campaign. Some areas in my campaign world have very little magic, some have a lot. Some have very few enchanted items, but due to local hedge witches or whatever have a decent supply of potions and elixirs.
These days I feel that a heavy magic campaign is sometimes preferable to a low magic campaign. The commonality of magic items changes the nature of the game such that I have to work it into the local economy for it to make sense. But when I do that, and magic is common, I have magic woven into the infrastructure of the culture. Magic fountains, magic streetlights, magic toilets... I find that when magic is everywhere you can create an entirely different flavor of fantasy, one that is every bit as "magical" as the low magic campaigns. The largest city in my world has what is essentially a magic mass transit system to whisk people around the city. The king uses magic to spread his announcements. Kids have magic learning devices. Doors open automatically for people... etc.
I'm not opposed to the idea that some areas are magic rich and others not... in my main campaign world, I have an entire empire where magic is outlawed as sorcery (though clerical magic of the official faith is not), and I too have a few select areas where magic use is almost common, but those areas tend to be culturally dominated, such as small country/major city ruled by a council of mages and regarded as a center for learning - even so, +1 swords don't roll off any assembly lines.
The latter example you're talkign about in my opinion stops being fantasy - you may as well call magic what it is in that circumstance: electricity.
When I look back on my life and all of the fantasy influences growing up, whether it was the Lord of the Rings, the original Dragonslayer movie, the books of Robert Jordan and George R.R. Martin and so on... nowhere was every character laden down with magic items they couldn't wait to get to market to sell. That's kind of where I'm coming from I guess, away from the MMO's and Monty Haul campaigns and back to good old-fashioned fantasy story telling.

3.5 Loyalist |

Okay, that's not really true. I hate ~generic~ magic items. I hate running into town and stocking up on potions at the local five-and-dime. I hate characters pre-built with the presumption of having certain magic items available at certain levels as if they are part of the standard adventuring tool kit. It might just be me but I like the magical to be... magical.
In my campaigns, there really is no such thing as generic magic items. I allow for master work items, even to the point of additional 'tiers', i.e. +1 Masterwork weapons and armor and incredibly rare, incredibly expensive +2 Masterwork weapons and armor, most of which have a story of some sort behind them... certainly not so commonly available that every player is walking around with a full arsenal of them. Masterwork equipment too, like thieve's tools which theoretically could be found anywhere from improvised (-5 skill checks) to tools that offered bonuses of +1, +2 or even +5.
Expendable magic items like potions aren't unheard of in my campaigns, but they often take various forms depending on the culture from which they originate, like elixirs that can be drunk, small clay tablets stamped with runes that must be broken to be used or little paper oragami pieces who's shape give a clue to their use when unfolded... but to gain access to more than the rare 'drop' of any of them, you need a 'source', which often involves a quest of some sort and serves as a nice non-monetary reward for achieving some goal... and even then of course, the supply is limited.
When it comes to non-expendable magic items like weapons or wondrous items, most members of the group tend to only acquire a couple at best, though I generally make up for that by making the items more powerful and more uniquely suited to the character. I also often create items with multiple powers that become apparent as the character in question gains in experience, allowing signature items to become identifiable with its weilder for the duration of the campaign.
I find the end result is a...
Same. Right there with you. Been a dm for ages, getting tired of the bland small bonus magic items and the players that obsess over them.
So! I add more character. Give small bonuses to items, really describe the items and make them less common. Make up my own. Bonza.

Adamantine Dragon |

The latter example you're talkign about in my opinion stops being fantasy - you may as well call magic what it is in that circumstance: electricity.
Well, we are all entitled to our opinions. The electricity analogy is apt though. In my biggest cities, magic is treated much as electricity is. But the flavor is quite different. Some things electricity can't do, such as levitation, teleportation, etc. are quite prevalent in my larger cities.

3.5 Loyalist |

Next sword I'm adding in. It is powerful, it is juicy, and it was deliberately made to look as bland as possible. Not shiny, no bells, no whistles, no gems. A straight sword for honest straight folk. Probably the blade of some anti-fashion Paladin a century ago. Been in the hands of a few mercs before the party got it.

cranewings |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I totally agree about the magic item thing. Right now, I'm have a fully stocked magic item store. The schtick is that he is a once off guy - an all powerful and nigh unkillable balrog who sells magic items to the mortal world in order to cause chaos 100 years from now. In any case, his pickiness with who he sells to and the fact that he is the only guy means the PC's have someone to buy items from and I don't have to get into the goofy world building exercises other people need to go through to keep their worlds consistent.
This guy is the only source for items. I'm not letting the PC's build items, but I do let them sell what they have for full price, so they don't need to build anything anyway. They just trade it all for their heart's desire. If they want to collect the big six, be my guest. They want a metamagic rod from the demon? Go for it.
I'm just doing it because I'm running this game pretty much by raw, along with all the goofy assumptions about the right way to play which are endemic on these boards, just so that my new players know what it is like. They don't seem to suffer from entitlement issues, but I'm giving them all the benefits as if they knew what to ask for.
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For a real game where I care about the ambiance, I like to split the big six items up according to wealth by level and award them as bonuses as the characters level. They are changed and flavored up a little so that they work about how trained abilities would work.
Then, there is no question about the wealth by level problem. Sure, they aren't optimized, but who cares. They are functional. Then, any items I want to let them get are completely for fun and flavor. There is no burden of system mastery.
For items available: no items stores or crafting. They only get what I give them. No big six items. Magic arms and armors don't give a bonus.
So you might get a magic flaming sword, that you acquire because you decided to quest for it, and it might give a 1d6 damage bonus, but it wouldn't be +1 or +2 or anything else.
For whatever reason, playing that way makes the game a lot more fun for me, and from what I'm starting to see, for my players too.

Wiggz |

Next sword I'm adding in. It is powerful, it is juicy, and it was deliberately made to look as bland as possible. Not shiny, no bells, no whistles, no gems. A straight sword for honest straight folk. Probably the blade of some anti-fashion Paladin a century ago. Been in the hands of a few mercs before the party got it.
Was that in response to my post? If so thanks - the doubling of one's strength bonus instead of magical enhancement allows for a little bit of progression by the weapon as the character progresses... though clearly its not intended to be combined with other strength-altering magic items as it could be easily broken.
You really should see my list of custom magic items some time. Lot of fun, story inspiring items there. :)

wraithstrike |

wraithstrike wrote:How is making armor +2(nonmagical) and different than keeping it magical?Ambiance. Some people just don't like hyper-magical settings, and both Golarion and the implied setting of the core rules are pretty danged magic-rich.
If the GM is willing to do the cleanup work that comes with changing the CR assumptions, more power to them. I see no obvious reason why this doesn't work.
I was saying that it has the same affect. All he is doing is calling it nonmagical from my PoV. I was asking to be sure I was correct.
edit:for clarification
Liam Warner |
Some things I like to keep in mind when placing magical items in my game world are . . .
1)Every magical item has to be made by someone in other words every item in my world was made by a mage for a purpose.
2) If you make a permanent item then it is a PERMANENT item it may be lost, stolen or even turned against the maker and it will probably still be around long after the person it was made for is gone.
3) For most mages a monetary reward i.e. paying them 1,000 GP for a +1 sword isn't going to be that impressive since they can earn up to that much a month just for basic advisory services and typically get 3,000 a year for the same. Of course payment in spell components e.g rare items or gems or ancient lore is more appealing.
This tends to mean that there are no generic +1 swords or the like. Every single item thats made or found has a name, a history and possibly groups out there who'll do anything to get it back. Even if you are able to get a mage to make you something it'll be a weapon with a name and a history you make. Most magical items tend to be either a limited use e.g. an oil that can make a sword burn with flames 12 times, are hard to aquire or have been lost in some forgotten dungeon when the wielder fell.
What this means for "Ye Old Magic Shop" is only the larger cities will even have a place that buys or sells magical items and your not going to find a +1 sword instead you'll maybe be able to buy
Mslay a magical blade wielded by the Purple Knight of Cormor for 20 years in his crusade to bring justice and peace to the wilds of Arestai until he fell in battle gainst a fell wyrm his last blow taking its life and his sword was retrieved by the order and held in the museum of Cormor for another 135 years till the city was sacked in the war of Slaevine. Retrieved from one of their lieutenants and now available here although it bestows some power on any how weild it only those who have proven thier worth will unlock its true power. (+1 blade for neutral, +2 for good and +3 Holy for a paladin or fighter of good alignment). A masterwork blade of fine crafting with a golden hilty and a ruby set into the pommel, the symbol of a lost knightly order embossed on the guard.
or
Xerial a blade with a shadowed history that is said to feed on the lifeforce of those who fall before it wielded by a dark warrior who slaughtered his way across the cities of the southern alliance revealling in the bloodshed until our own city guard managed to bring him down the blade passed onto us after the trial for dispossal (A blade that offers vampiric regeneration). A dull almost blackish blade with a stained leather handle, no guard and an almost wedge shapped blade. The previous owner might escape and come after his sword at some point as well.
and
2 sets of Aranochrial armour once belonging to the main servitors of a now dead god recovered by an adventuring party from the forests of Wemos where it appears they fell slaying some form of dragon going by the enourmous skeleton also found in that clearing, sadly they apparently didn't find any treasure. Its said that the armour was designed to aid its bearers in battle against the fell spirits of his ancient enemy a god of the underworld but no living sage know's more. (+2 magical plate with the ghost touch ability so it changes incorporeal attacks to AC rather than touch AC).
I have heard rumors of a powerful blade that was said to grow stronger the more powerful foe it defeats in the hands of someone who supposedly seeks a foe powerful enough to kill them but I don't have that here and only the Sage Anrothal know's who holds it. (Plot hook)

Wiggz |

Evil Lincoln wrote:I was saying that it has the same affect. All he is doing is calling nonmagical.wraithstrike wrote:How is making armor +2(nonmagical) and different than keeping it magical?Ambiance. Some people just don't like hyper-magical settings, and both Golarion and the implied setting of the core rules are pretty danged magic-rich.
If the GM is willing to do the cleanup work that comes with changing the CR assumptions, more power to them. I see no obvious reason why this doesn't work.
The same statistical effect yes. But this isn't an MMO. The fact that its a unique item crafted a century or more ago by a master of his craft, has sentimental value beyond its snumerical advantage, came directly from a relating adventure and opens role-play opportunities in the future would all be significant in a ROLE-playing game.
For the statistically obsessed among us, I suppose it also provides a benefit that can't be nullified by anti-magical effects.

FuelDrop |

i agree with the sentiment that magic items are too common. you shouldn't just be able to walk into town and buy a +5 sword... as if someone has a stash of them out the back of his store, in case a flood of massively rich adventurers could come through at any moment.
in my new campaign i'm doubling the cost of all magic items... if you can find someone to sell them in the first place. on top of that, full casters are very rare and there's currently no-one above level six to craft stuff in any case. on the flip side, there's plenty of old war magic in the ruins of the hobgoblin empire. they just have to go and get them...

thenobledrake |
If it is expected that characters will have them, then it is no longer special.
If you adjust your encounters to be winnable without magic items, then you can restrict characters to a few precious items and have no problem.
This, a thousand times this.
I have run D&D for the longest of time following this very philosophy - Items are as special as you make them, and the only time they are "required," is when you are dealing with opponents of very specific sorts... and event then, they aren't as "needed" as most people act like they are.
So the werewolf has DR you can only bypass with a silver weapon - so what? Use some ingenuity and light him on fire, throw him in a pit, toss him off a building, whatever it takes... or just tough it out if you can hurt him despite the DR.
It's not like it is AD&D where monsters have "cannot be hit except by weapons of +X and greater," and there aren't any monsters out there that have a natural (no items involved) AC too high for you to hit without magic items when you are an appropriate level to fight them.

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I want Pathfinder 2E to eliminate magic items that give bonuses, full stop. Effects are cool...the Flaming Sword of Fire is cool. The generic longsword +X is boring and stupid and lame. A belt that allows you to disguise yourself as another person is cool. A generic belt of Str +6 is boring and stupid and lame. A cloak that lets you fade into the background is cool. A cloak of generic resistance +4 is boring and stupid and lame.

cranewings |
I want Pathfinder 2E to eliminate magic items that give bonuses, full stop. Effects are cool...the Flaming Sword of Fire is cool. The generic longsword +X is boring and stupid and lame. A belt that allows you to disguise yourself as another person is cool. A generic belt of Str +6 is boring and stupid and lame. A cloak that lets you fade into the background is cool. A cloak of generic resistance +4 is boring and stupid and lame.
Absolutely.
A friend of mine started RPing with Palladium back in the 90's. Besides having his first character suddenly eaten by a Trent, he always hated D&D for the magic. In paladium, having a magic item is usually your whole character. A magic sword lets you fly and gives you super strength and lets you cast spells and turns you invisible and shoots fireballs and talks to you and blah blah blah. He said D&D (2e) was the first time he ever saw a magic sword that wasn't magical.

Robespierre |

I want Pathfinder 2E to eliminate magic items that give bonuses, full stop. Effects are cool...the Flaming Sword of Fire is cool. The generic longsword +X is boring and stupid and lame. A belt that allows you to disguise yourself as another person is cool. A generic belt of Str +6 is boring and stupid and lame. A cloak that lets you fade into the background is cool. A cloak of generic resistance +4 is boring and stupid and lame.
You're aware that bonus dice for fire damage on hit is a bonus right?

cranewings |
Kthulhu wrote:I want Pathfinder 2E to eliminate magic items that give bonuses, full stop. Effects are cool...the Flaming Sword of Fire is cool. The generic longsword +X is boring and stupid and lame. A belt that allows you to disguise yourself as another person is cool. A generic belt of Str +6 is boring and stupid and lame. A cloak that lets you fade into the background is cool. A cloak of generic resistance +4 is boring and stupid and lame.You're aware that bonus dice for fire damage on hit is a bonus right?
I'm not sure if you are just nit picking because you love arguing or if you don't really get it.
+1 to strike and damage is boring.
+1d6 fire damage is cool.

TheWarriorPoet519 |

I just changed the rules so magic enhancement bonuses are now different tiers of Masterwork quality. Green Ronin's Black Company RPG had a fantastic masterwork item system for different tiers of equipment quality that allowed for some good specialization.
I don't mind the +1-5 tiers of enhancement bonus, as they serve a good role in game balance. I just think they work better as nonmagical improvements that are a result of superior craftsmanship.
Then you tack on various special abilities to represent the actual MAGIC part.
That said, really, any ability is boring and generic when the GM doesn't bother to add the proper flavor.
Example:
"Behold; The sword Dragonsbane, crafted by Angriff Bloodheart, last of the line of Runesmiths of long lost Arkenhome, two hundred years past. It was hammered upon the black anvil of the thrice-born king, its edge heated in the fires of black coal sparked with flint taken from the Highhorn mountains. It was tempered in the blood of the dragon that took the life of his family, and in its hilt is set a shard of the monster's obsidian heart. It has known twelve bearers, and each of them has left a new rune in its black fuller. Take it, but know that it comes with a legacy, and the blade does not suffer the unworthy to bring it shame."
+4 Intelligent Dragonsbane bastard sword. It's all in the presentation.

Liam Warner |
Yeah, it just gets exhausting writing up unique stories for the 20+ magic items each character uses...
That's why you keep them all so after a few years you've got hundred of unique item descriptions you can just toss into your game as needed and no one's really going to mind if you borrow plots from other sources. For example take the sword in the stone.
This is the blade that was used to to proclaim an ancient king and shattered in battle. Many centuries later those who remembered him gathered the pieces and had them blessed by their god (simple +1 sword now).
Oh and I was going by the legend where the sword he drew from the stone to prove he was king got shattered and he was given Excalabir (another possible weapon and an interesting since one since both blade and scabbard possesed different magical properties) from the lady in the lake as a replacement.

leo1925 |

Robespierre wrote:Kthulhu wrote:I want Pathfinder 2E to eliminate magic items that give bonuses, full stop. Effects are cool...the Flaming Sword of Fire is cool. The generic longsword +X is boring and stupid and lame. A belt that allows you to disguise yourself as another person is cool. A generic belt of Str +6 is boring and stupid and lame. A cloak that lets you fade into the background is cool. A cloak of generic resistance +4 is boring and stupid and lame.You're aware that bonus dice for fire damage on hit is a bonus right?I'm not sure if you are just nit picking because you love arguing or if you don't really get it.
+1 to strike and damage is boring.
+1d6 fire damage is cool.
No they are both boring but you know what? the +1d6 fire damage is useless after a certain level that fire resistance becomes the norm or high DR becomes the norm.

sunshadow21 |

Personally, in my homebrew world, I plan on dealing with the issue by breaking up the relative rarity of the different level of items.
Common minor magic items (up to about 8k) are easy enough to find, and while I might describe their physical appearance, I won't worry much about backstory. There are simply too many of them for the story to really be of too much concern. If the player wants one, or if the player keeps it long enough, stories will develop on their own without me having to do a ton of work; otherwise, no one is going to care, and any story I come up with will likely be ignored or forgotten.
Uncommon minor magic items and medium level magic items (8k-27k) can be commissioned or found as loot after a battle, but are not going to be found just sitting on a shelf in some store. These will always have some story behind them, due to the fact that they either had to find them or order them. The story may not be massively deep, but it will be there, and it will be important.
Anything more expensive than that and custom items are entirely within my purview as DM and will always have meaning to them because they will either be gifts, really special loot after a tough fight, or involve some kind of quest to acquire.
This to me seems a happy medium. Over time, I still have the opportunity to incorporate magic items in a way that makes the special items truly special, but still gives the players the base items that the system expects them to have, and more importantly, that players in every edition of the game have sought, regardless of how common they are or how easy they are to find. If some of them don't have a deep story to them, or are seen as throwaway items, oh well; that just makes the ones that do have a story pop out that much more.

Liam Warner |
Yeah, because running around armed with silver spoons that have 3 pages of backstory and the uncanny ability to cast ventrilloquism 3/day when standing on a tree trunk is oh so fascinating.
Which would you rather in your game here's your plus 2 sword to replace that plus 1 sword or you find inserte brief description of the piece of history your holiding. Then instead of you find a replacement you get it improved by retrieving various objects maybe a ruby that was lost from the hilt or some rare components a mage can use to increase its properties.
I rather like the second myself especially since it means you can keep the +3 or stronger for powerful figures or forgotten ruins but still have the players improve their equipment as needed.
Strange you should mention tree trunks though I had one group who wound up with an awakened one following them around till it was killed and they found it bled gold coins (wild magic problems, also gave one of the party his own sound track).

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Some stuff I do to make Magic Items Special, without messing with the assumed system.
1) Follow the purchasing Magic Items guidelines (75% of finding any item over a particular GP value in any civilization).
2) All magic items must be named.
3) Add the BIG 6 abilities to more interesting items. For example a Crangdin is a Ring of Climbing AND a Ring of Protection +2, it's valued at the higher of the two values (subsuming the lower value into the price). This encourages PCs to try more interesting items without the fear of falling behind.
4) Describe an item when a player finds it.
5) Get players to commission items from The Church, The local Wizard's guild, or get the local thieve's guild to "procure" the item, or even have the local ye olde adventure mart order items from a bigger city (and have it take actual in game time)
6) Don't let PCs just sell items in a town that doesn't have the GP value to buy the item. They either have to make the trek themselves, or have a go-between sell the item (taking in-game time for their GP to arrive) and thus for a while must go without occasionally.
If the players get involved with key players in the setting and their characters don't get instant gratification then the world doesn't feel like instant magi-marts are on every corner.

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That's why you keep them all so after a few years you've got hundred of unique item descriptions you can just toss into your game as needed and no one's really going to mind if you borrow plots from other sources. For example take the sword in the stone.
Some of us haven't been DMing for years.

Adamantine Dragon |

The thing it took me a long time to realize is that these two situations (common magic items and special magic items) are not mutually exclusive. Both can exist in the same game.
If the sheer existence of large numbers of magic items (almost always of low level and basic functionality) bothers you, then by all means, play a low magic campaign.
But that's not the same thing as saying that magic can't feel unique and special in any sort of setting.
I tend to agree with the "generic belt of +4 strength is boring" concept. Generic attribute or skill bonuses are boring from a role play perspective, until you use the skill or ability that benefits, but by then it's not associated with the sword, it's "I have a +14 to hit" not "I would have missed without my awesome longsword of hittiness!"
That's what makes them "boring." They don't have any obvious game impact in a role playing sense.
Our party had a dwarf with a flaming battleaxe. Going into battle he'd say "Flame On!" which might be corny, but it's at least something that engages the players and encourages more role play.
Since this is at least nominally a "role playing game" I try always to provide the party with magic items which encourage that sort of role play. At first I also restricted magic items but I learned over time that my own personal tastes for a campaign weren't the same as my players, and while I was a little put off by the magic Kwikie-Mart, my players, by and large, actually liked it. So I re-introduced them.
But I still provide special magic items that have personality and encourage role play. Also I have begun to have certain key magic items "grow" with the characters if they unlock their potential through heroic acts, noble sacrifice or, in some cases, even monetary sacrifice. So now they don't replace their main weapon every two or three levels, they perform the necessary activities to unlock its newest capabilities.
But that doesn't mean they can't buy a +2 ring of protection if they want one. They can.

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But that doesn't mean they can't buy a +2 ring of protection if they want one. They can.
The problem is that if magic items are allowed to have bonuses (whether it be to abilities, attack, damage, etc), then this leads to the christmas tree effect.
I'd like to see the magic items changed up to the point where a a character that doesn't have any magical items is just as viable as a character loaded to the hilt with them, just without the cool effects they provide. And really, the only way to do this is to stop letting items provide generic bonuses, full stop. No more enhancement bonuses on weapons or armor...no more ability-boosting belts or headbands...etc.
I'm not talking about giving each magic item a unique history...while that's cool, it's not at all needed for what I'm suggesting. Besides, for those complaining about the need to have the history before you let the characters find the weapon, you do realize that simply looking at the sword doesn't reveal it's history, right?

Adamantine Dragon |

Adamantine Dragon wrote:But that doesn't mean they can't buy a +2 ring of protection if they want one. They can.The problem is that if magic items are allowed to have bonuses (whether it be to abilities, attack, damage, etc), then this leads to the christmas tree effect.
I'd like to see the magic items changed up to the point where a a character that doesn't have any magical items is just as viable as a character loaded to the hilt with them, just without the cool effects they provide. And really, the only way to do this is to stop letting items provide generic bonuses, full stop. No more enhancement bonuses on weapons or armor...no more ability-boosting belts or headbands...etc.
I'm not talking about giving each magic item a unique history...while that's cool, it's not at all needed for what I'm suggesting. Besides, for those complaining about the need to have the history before you let the characters find the weapon, you do realize that simply looking at the sword doesn't reveal it's history, right?
If magic items don't give any mechanical bonus, then they are just fluff. Some players like fluff, some don't. My players reaction to magical items that don't give them a mechanical advantage would be "ooh... that's cool. But what does it do?"
If the concept of the game is that magic is powerful, then magic items should be powerful. Having magic items should give a character an edge over a character without magic items. That's what they are for.
There are rules variations for playing extremely low magic campaigns, 4e even has a low-magic attribute bonus progression that you can use in place of the expected +X per level you are supposed to gain from swords. There are even classes that are designed to be viable without magic items if you want to play them.
But for most people the whole point of magic items is to give some mechanical advantage.

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...I'd like to see the magic items changed up to the point where a character that doesn't have any magical items is just as viable as a character loaded to the hilt with them, just without the cool effects they provide...
I think I understand what you're saying. In fiction and myth, magical items are hardly ever "The Armor of Being 15% Less Likely To Get Injured Than If You Wore Regular Armor": enchanted armor is more likely to have a specific effect like "turns aside all arrows" or "makes its wearer immune to cold". In other words, magical items in stories tend to be items that are very powerful within a narrow range but just ordinary items for all other purposes. The exception, of course, being "Armageddon items" like the One Ring, which purportedly have tons of powers but deny those powers to all except the Destined One.

Adamantine Dragon |

Kthulhu wrote:...I'd like to see the magic items changed up to the point where a character that doesn't have any magical items is just as viable as a character loaded to the hilt with them, just without the cool effects they provide...I think I understand what you're saying. In fiction and myth, magical items are hardly ever "The Armor of Being 15% Less Likely To Get Injured Than If You Wore Regular Armor": enchanted armor is more likely to have a specific effect like "turns aside all arrows" or "makes its wearer immune to cold". In other words, magical items in stories tend to be items that are very powerful within a narrow range but just ordinary items for all other purposes. The exception, of course, being "Armageddon items" like the One Ring, which purportedly have tons of powers but deny those powers to all except the Destined One.
If the goal is to remove generic bonuses like "+2 to AC" or "+3 to hit and damage" but to retain other game-impacting abilities like "add d6 flame damage" or "allow wearer to fly" then those abilities are still going to make a character with magic items much more powerful than characters without them.
However, I think the idea is that a character without magic items could still hit and damage the enemy enough to be a factor in a fight. That's worth looking at.
The idea that most magic items in myth and legend don't provide "15% less likely to get injured" is actually not accurate. Magical swords in myth and legend DO hit more often and do more damage than non-magical swords. Magical armor DOES protect the wearer better than non-magical armor. Magical bows shoot farther, straighter and do more damage. Magical arrows hit more reliably and do more damage.
In game mechanics this is best represented by bonuses to attack probabilities and damage bonuses.
Many magic items in myth and legend do provide additional powers though, just as they do in D&D. The difference between the game and myth and legend is the sheer commonality of magic items. In all of "The Lord of the Rings" there are probably less than two dozen actual magic items even KNOWN, much less used. Which takes us back to the "magic items are too common" argument.

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Kthulhu wrote:...I'd like to see the magic items changed up to the point where a character that doesn't have any magical items is just as viable as a character loaded to the hilt with them, just without the cool effects they provide...I think I understand what you're saying. In fiction and myth, magical items are hardly ever "The Armor of Being 15% Less Likely To Get Injured Than If You Wore Regular Armor": enchanted armor is more likely to have a specific effect like "turns aside all arrows" or "makes its wearer immune to cold". In other words, magical items in stories tend to be items that are very powerful within a narrow range but just ordinary items for all other purposes. The exception, of course, being "Armageddon items" like the One Ring, which purportedly have tons of powers but deny those powers to all except the Destined One.
Yup, that was exactly what I was trying to say. And the "armageddon items" like you describe would be artifacts, not just magic items.

Rapthorn2ndform |

Personally, in my homebrew world, I plan on dealing with the issue by breaking up the relative rarity of the different level of items.
Common minor magic items (up to about 8k) are easy enough to find, and while I might describe their physical appearance, I won't worry much about backstory. There are simply too many of them for the story to really be of too much concern. If the player wants one, or if the player keeps it long enough, stories will develop on their own without me having to do a ton of work; otherwise, no one is going to care, and any story I come up with will likely be ignored or forgotten.
Uncommon minor magic items and medium level magic items (8k-27k) can be commissioned or found as loot after a battle, but are not going to be found just sitting on a shelf in some store. These will always have some story behind them, due to the fact that they either had to find them or order them. The story may not be massively deep, but it will be there, and it will be important.
Anything more expensive than that and custom items are entirely within my purview as DM and will always have meaning to them because they will either be gifts, really special loot after a tough fight, or involve some kind of quest to acquire.
This to me seems a happy medium. Over time, I still have the opportunity to incorporate magic items in a way that makes the special items truly special, but still gives the players the base items that the system expects them to have, and more importantly, that players in every edition of the game have sought, regardless of how common they are or how easy they are to find. If some of them don't have a deep story to them, or are seen as throwaway items, oh well; that just makes the ones that do have a story pop out that much more.
I like this idea, also when the players go to a city i figure how big the city is (tiny, small, med, large, huge and Metropolis)
The tiny cites have 1d6 randomly generated potions and another d6 generated item of low value
1- nothing 2- 1d6 potions 3- armor 4- 1d3 wands 5- weapon 6- roll 2 more times (so if you keep rolling 6s it could simulate another adventuring party coming trough not much earlier)
smalls have 3d6 potions 1d4 wands and 1d3 wondrous items and 2 d6s
and all the item possibilities dice increase by 1 size
and the Metropolis has every minor item available within 2 days

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...In all of "The Lord of the Rings" there are probably less than two dozen actual magic items even KNOWN, much less used...
Well, Tolkien was deliberately creating a setting in which magic was an aspect of spiritual - no! Must - resist urge - to debate - Tolkien - at great length! Must - talk like - Shatner - until urge passes!
Whew! That was a close one. Anyhow, I think most GMs are comfy with moderately common magical items. I rather like the 'Arabian Nights' level of magic, in which you can almost count on 1d3 magical items figuring in the story: the difficulty, of course, is that PCs travel from story to story and bring their magical items along, leading to a snowball of increasing magical versatility. In my last campaign, despite deliberate efforts to keep the items infrequent, a few RL years of adventure still led to a 14th-level party with a vault filled with 'spare' magical gear. (Not that that's all bad. You'll see a lot of PCs out there sell off their regular spear +3 when they come across a frost spear +3, only to subsequently lose the better spear: how much wiser it would have been to cache the second-best spear somewhere in case of just such a mishap.)

doctor_wu |

Shopping for magic items is usually boring. I find that only finding wands fully charged is not really that realistic either. I thematically like special materials and masterwork items. Also clerics of Gorum or other Gorum worshipers might not care where their magical greatsword comes from only that slices open there enemies.

Starbuck_II |

Many magic items in myth and legend do provide additional powers though, just as they do in D&D. The difference between the game and myth and legend is the sheer commonality of magic items. In all of "The Lord of the Rings" there are probably less than two dozen actual magic items even KNOWN, much less used. Which takes us back to the "magic items are too common" argument.
Your counting is way off.
1) Aeglos2) Anglachel, reforged into Gurthang
3) Angrist
4) Anguirel
5) Aranrúth
6) Belthronding
7) Dragon-helm
8) Dramborleg
9) Glamdring
10)Grond
11) Gúthwinë
12) Herugrim
13) Narsil, refored into Anduril
14) Orcrist
15) Ringil
16) Sting
And that isn't even getting into the 9 rings of power + The Ring.
We are already past 25.
If you mean the party, then you spoke out of context.
Edit: I missed three, aiglos, Morgulblade and Caudimordax.

Trainwreck |

A few things I've been having fun with to avoid the magic Wal-Mart feel in my game:
1. Allowing items to be fashioned out of magical monsters that have been defeated.
So some Xorn hide armor is +3 hide armor that grants resist 10 versus fire and cold, a stone taken from the heart of a Shoggoth grants spell resistance 20 to anyone who carries it, any weapon soaked for a week in the bile of a red dragon gains the flaming burst quality (while using up the bile in the process), etc.
2. Allowing the magic of certain places, or items, etc. to imbue the characters themselves with various qualities.
There's a legendary river that runs directly from the First World of the fey creatures into the material plane. It is never found in the same place twice, can be guarded heavily or simply appear with no explanation. Drinking from its waters bestows a permanent resistance bonus on all saves of +1 per 4 character levels. Or it could give a permanent +2 bonus to all physical stats, or whatever it seems like the PCs in your game are in need of.
The players end up with just as much cool stuff, without the Wal-Mart.

TheWarriorPoet519 |

making heavy changes to the way magic items work requires rejiggering the entire CR system, as those CR's assume that a party facing them has a certain level of resources available to them.
Not saying it can't be done, but it must be kept in mind. If you take away a fighter's enhanced magic items, you'll have a fighter who doesn't hit as well as the CR's for certain monsters assume he should be able to.

Adamantine Dragon |

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Many magic items in myth and legend do provide additional powers though, just as they do in D&D. The difference between the game and myth and legend is the sheer commonality of magic items. In all of "The Lord of the Rings" there are probably less than two dozen actual magic items even KNOWN, much less used. Which takes us back to the "magic items are too common" argument.
Your counting is way off.
1) Aeglos
2) Anglachel, reforged into Gurthang
3) Angrist
4) Anguirel
5) Aranrúth
6) Belthronding
7) Dragon-helm
8) Dramborleg
9) Glamdring
10)Grond
11) Gúthwinë
12) Herugrim
13) Narsil, refored into Anduril
14) Orcrist
15) Ringil
16) StingAnd that isn't even getting into the 9 rings of power + The Ring.
We are already past 25.
If you mean the party, then you spoke out of context.
Edit: I missed three, aiglos, Morgulblade and Caudimordax.
Wow, my point is so much less now that you've shown that there are less than 50 magic items in LoTR.
I bow to your superior knowledge of the book. Gladly. (How many of those you listed are in "The Silmarillion" and not in LoTR itself, just for giggles...)

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+ the unnamed magic cloaks and mithril armour the PCs... erm I mean the members of the Fellowship wear.
Also these are just the Magic Items we're TOLD about. There's more to Middle Earth than what happens in those books after all, other deeds of daring do and heroes wielding magic blades etc. The ones named in the books are super special, but the mildly magicked stuff is mostly glossed over and ignored.
This is how you make magic special in your games: Emphasise the cool plot-worthy items give them grand names and deep histories that the PCs can research, and don't make a fuss over the bags of holding and rings of swimming etc that can often make up a treasure hoard.