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For clerics, yes. Definitely. I don't know as much about other divine classes, but I think druids usually worship the generic "Green Faith".
The 20 major deities of Golarion are listed in the Core Rulebook, alone with what domains they give. For more detail, check out "Gods and Magic" or the "Faiths of ..." books. Those cover not only the 20 major deities, but also some minor ones that aren't listed in the Core Rules.
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Clerics and Inquisitors must select a patron deity and must be within one alignment step.
Paladins are not required to select a deity, but if they choose to, it must be a deity that is within one step of their LG alignment. The same would apply to Druids and their Neutral alignment.
The various "Faiths of" books are excellent sources of information for divine characters.
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Also, ANY worshiper of a deity, must be within one alignment step of that deity - whether they draw any powers from that deity or not.I do not believe this to be true. What is the definition of worshiper?
Check for yourself.
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, Gods & Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and his allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
The point was discussed at length for inclusion in version 4.1 too. I believe it will still be there.
Also, if you need to discuss the definition of the word "worshiper" - sorry, can't help you. I won't go there.
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The 'can' is there in the first sentence as the start of a long list which Gods a worshipper 'can' choose.
It can't be a 'must' because of the last sentence which allows characters not receiving powers from a devine source to stay atheists.
You could make it clearer for clerics by rewriting the last sentence in a way that characters receiving powers from devine sources have to choose a god. But that would make it less clear for non devine worshippers.
Or you could write both - leading to bloat.
I guess writing these rules in a way that stays readable without becoming technical can sometimes be difficult. But there are always the boards to check out when you are unsure.
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Yeah, that would be my question, too. As Nosig asked, what qualifies as a worshiper, and for those not receiving divine powers, does it matter if their alignment isn't close?
As a non-hypothetical example, I made an ex-slave bard PC who is primarily an archer in battle, and primarily a storyteller as a performer. In his back story, I specifically wrote that he's respectful to the gods, and I'm sure that many of the stories he tells would be about them. He routinely gives thanks to Cayden Cailean (CG) for his freedom, Erastil (LG) for his archery skill, Shelyn (NG) for his performing talent, and Nethys (N) for his magical ability. By sheer coincidence, I happened to make him the one and only alignment (NG) that puts him within one step of all four of those deities.
Is that character a "worshiper" of those gods, or would he have to pick one as his primary religion to qualify as a real "worshiper"? What would I write on my character sheet where it says "deity"?
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In our context, IMO, a "worshiper" is someone devoted to the teachings of that deity over all others, and is active in showing reverence through attending religious services, following dogmatic processes, and/or proselytizing.
This is a step up from casual respect paid to gain a god's blessing because you happen to entering their area of control. Such as an offering to Desna before a long road trip, or a sacrifice to Gorum before battle, etc.
In most cases, if you are not a divine character, it does not matter how you define yourself. However, it is not likely that a "true" worshiper would come from an alignment group too far from that of the deity. Afterall, you really cannot justify being NG and claiming to worship Zon-Kuthon.
I believe that there are a few magic items that require the user/wearer/wielder to be a "worshiper" in which case it would be important to note that as a character trait.
In the end, non-divine characters declaring themselves a worshiper of a particular deity is largely fluff. If you choose to do so, just make sure it makes sense for the character and you'll be fine. That will likely mean being within one step of their deities alignment.
Is that character a "worshiper" of those gods, or would he have to pick one as his primary religion to qualify as a real "worshiper"? What would I write on my character sheet where it says "deity"?
By my definition, no you are not a worshiper. You just show respect to those deities that hold sway over parts of your existence that have meaning for you.
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Also, the one-step issue helps reduce cheese of people choosing a diety to "worship" just to min/max using a religion trait.
You can "call" yourself a worshipper of a god or goddess whose ideals are opposed to the way you live your life - but the god wouldn't accept that worship, since you're not following their creed or living in accordance with their proscribed faith. Thus, you wouldn't qualify for religion traits, magic item usage, divine powers, or other effects with game mechanics, but you can still say whatever you want when someone other than the GM asks who you worship.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2fjg?Cleric-of-Aroden-Vs-Cleric-of-Noone
The answer is... what version of the Golarion setting are you using? For rules, are you using 3.5, beta, core, earlier books of the Golarion setting, the latest from the Golarion setting, which has seen a lot of recent editing against polytheism/pantheism/domain clerics?
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The answer is... what version of the Golarion setting are you using?
Since this is the PFS forum, we are using the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play and all legal material listed in the Additional Resources. So there is no question as to what version of the rules we are using. There is a clearly defined rule covering divine (cleric/Inquisitor) characters, as well as paladins who choose a specific deity in addition to the standard tenets.
The only real question lies in what is the definition of "worshiper." IMO, that is an easy answer, but YMMV.
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The only real question lies in what is the definition of "worshiper." IMO, that is an easy answer, but YMMV.
Here's my question then: what is the difference between a cleric and a worshiper? I would think that a worshiper is significantly less invested in a particular deity than a cleric. Since clerics in PF rarely if ever seem to be part of the clergy, and more wandering parishioners with a passion for their god, where does a worshiper fall in all this?
A worshiper in organized religions is someone who comes to the services and sits in the church, temple, mosque, etc and listens to and sometimes participates in the service. If you go to church on a Sunday, then you are a worshiper. And even in a world of many gods, the average worshiper will still have his patron deity while still offering reverence/respect to the other deities worshiped in his region/home town.
Now, the person running the service is a pastor or priest, etc who in a fantasy setting would generally have no special powers, or at the most might have a level in Cleric. Clerics as we know them in D&D/PRPG are as much warriors as they are priests. They are that step in between a normal priest and a paladin or champion of their god, and because of that very devotion to, and defense of, their god's teachings and beliefs, they receive their specials powers to uphold those teachings and beliefs. A Cleric is not as strict or fanatical as a paladin or champion and do not have a code like that, but they still have their rules to live by, straying from which in game terms is usually represented by a shift in alignment and the need for atonement.
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I suppose, technically, it needs to be added to the FAQ or add inquisitor to the wording of religion on page 7 of the Guide. It has been clarified in the forums that for the purposes of divine powers, inquisitors function like clerics.
For some reason, paladins have been exempted to this requirement. IMO, they should be no different than clerics and inquisitors, but until that is changed, they do not require a specific deity choice.
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I suppose, technically, it needs to be added to the FAQ or add inquisitor to the wording of religion on page 7 of the Guide. It has been clarified in the forums that for the purposes of divine powers, inquisitors function like clerics.
For some reason, paladins have been exempted to this requirement. IMO, they should be no different than clerics and inquisitors, but until that is changed, they do not require a specific deity choice.
I agree. The point I'm trying to make is that nowhere does it say (I think, could be wrong), in the core rules, in Golarion setting, or in PFS that anyone but the Cleric (and that is iff in all but PFS) require a deity, and that is specifically including the Inquisitor. I am deployed, so I can't actually check for myself just yet, but this was an issue that came up in the above mentions link.
Also note that Paladins (and Druids, etc. . .) where specifically called out in PFS (and Golarion) as NOT requiring a deity, on purpose from Paizo.
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The inquisitor is meant to be an enforcer for a religion... and not all religions are dedicated to deities. MOST of them are, and thus most inquisitors worship deities...but there can also be inquisitors of Diabolism, of the Green Faith, of the Whispering Way, or entire pantheons.1) Because there are several divine caster classes in the game, and of them all, only the cleric requires that you worship a deity. The others do not (although they can function that way).Why not the same requirement for the inquisitor? Isn't his main function to be the (by any means neccessary) enforcer for the church of a diety? as I assume he was inspired by the Van Helsing movie. I'd find the concept of a concept inquisitor even harder to swallow than that of a concept cleric, neither of which I'd allow in a home campaign.
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I suppose, technically, it needs to be added to the FAQ or add inquisitor to the wording of religion on page 7 of the Guide. It has been clarified in the forums that for the purposes of divine powers, inquisitors function like clerics.
For some reason, paladins have been exempted to this requirement. IMO, they should be no different than clerics and inquisitors, but until that is changed, they do not require a specific deity choice.
I agree. The point I'm trying to make is that nowhere does it say (I think, could be wrong), in the core rules, in Golarion setting, or in PFS that anyone but the Cleric (and that is iff in all but PFS) require a deity, and that is specifically including the Inquisitor. I am deployed, so I can't actually check for myself just yet, but this was an issue that came up in the above mentions link.
Also note that Paladins (and Druids, etc. . .) where specifically called out in PFS (and Golarion) as NOT requiring a deity, on purpose from Paizo.
The APG (where Inquisitors are introduced) states that they answer directly to their deities and that their alignment must be within one step.
I'm a little surprised you can't look it up, as the PRD and the messageboards are both parts of Paizo.com. How would they block one and not the other?
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The PRD doesn't include everything, but honestly I was wondering more about the PFS Guide. I just have to wait to try and get time to get my PDF's in a day or so.
The Ex-Inquisitors sections, however, doesn't mention anything about a deity, and there is not indications that the class itself recieves it's powers from a deity.
Under Domain, it says that an Inquisitor can pick a Domain and not have a Deity.
Also under Domain, it talks about how Inquisitors are not as tied to the tenets of a deity as Clerics are.
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Under Domain, it says that an Inquisitor can pick a Domain and not have a Deity.
Well, it says "with GM approval".
Domain: Like a cleric's deity, an inquisitor's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, and her values. Although not as tied to the tenets of the deity as a cleric, an inquisitor must still hold such guidelines in high regard, despite that fact she can go against them if it serves the greater good of the faith. An inquisitor can select one domain from among those belonging to her deity. She can select an alignment domain only if her alignment matches that domain. With the GM's approval, an inquisitor can be devoted to an ideal instead of a deity, selecting one domain to represent her personal inclination and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
This makes it clear that the default is to have a deity, and to do otherwise is an exception that needs to be cleared by the GM - same as non-deity clerics. It seems a reasonable conclusion that they'd be handled the same way (i.e., deities required for Organized Play).
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Also, the one-step issue helps reduce cheese of people choosing a diety to "worship" just to min/max using a religion trait.
You can "call" yourself a worshipper of a god or goddess whose ideals are opposed to the way you live your life - but the god wouldn't accept that worship, since you're not following their creed or living in accordance with their proscribed faith. Thus, you wouldn't qualify for religion traits, magic item usage, divine powers, or other effects with game mechanics, but you can still say whatever you want when someone other than the GM asks who you worship.
And you can even say to the GM that your character who is way out of step with the deity's alignment *believes* he/she is a worshiper of that deity, while acknowledging that the character is deluding him/her-self about having 'true' faith in that deity; and does NOT qualify as a worshiper for game-mechanics and benefits purposes. :)
That all makes sense.
nosig,
from page 326 of the APG, bolding is mine:
Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.
While one might purport to be a worshipper of some god/dess or other, if one's alignment is more than one step away from said deity's, that deity is not going to accept your 'worship' on account of the bazillion daily things you do/say/think that don't match that deity's rules.
There's no reason one can't respect a deity farther off than a single step, and the sort of 'casual' offerings to specific deities (to the god of travel before a long journey, to the god of merchants when planning big purchases, etc., etc.) represent this. My characters often spend respectable amounts in offerings to whatever god/dess of luck and/or fate are available, even if I don't worship them... just a kind of 'hey, look out for me anyway?' investment.
And there's the question of why would you want to worship a god whose tenets are so obviously not a match for your own?
And there's the question of why would you want to worship a god whose tenets are so obviously not a match for your own?
If you look for historical real world comparisons, people would make offerings or prayers to certain deities because they were afraid of what could happen if they did not, and not because they respected them. In gaming terms these would definitely be situations where the person and the god were more than one step apart on alignment and would be much more commonly done by someone considering themselves good towards a neutral or evil deity, such as a deity of death or war. Most soldiers/warriors would consider themselves to be good, but most war gods are neutral or evil, yet they will make offerings or prayers to them before battle. It should work the same way in regards to chaos and law, as well. For example, I would see nothing wrong with a paladin doing something that he feels would take the gaze of a trickster-type deity off of him, like toss a couple of coins in the offering bowl in order to avoid bad luck for a few days.
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Alignment doesn't really have all that much to do with worship or a faiths teneta a lot for the time. Also, look at Sarenrae, a NG deity of redemption and hope. However, in her "home", she is most commonly seen as more of a LN or LE cruel and primal fact of life.actually, the point raised in the thread, is that in order to be a "worshipper" of a diety - you have to be within one setp of it's alignment.
So, this would mean that L/N and C/N characters cannot be worshippers of Sarenrae. At least, in PFS...
Yes, but that leaves a glarring hole. If her worshipers (in her home nation nonetheless) are technically within the alignment thing, but actually following a path contrary to the majority of the other followers in the known world . . .
See where this is going?
actually, it would be best if we did not involve real world religions. To much chance of offending someone.
Actually, I am pretty non-religious/agnostic in real life, so I am used to automatically being offensive to anyone who is religious just by existing. ;)
Also, I tend not to involve Paladins actions in examples, as there is to much Judge intrepretation involved. (some Judges would put the paladin in your above example into an "atonement" situation. Offerings = Worship, Worship of a C/N god would be an alignment violation... added to the fact that MOST Trickery gods in PFS are Evil....).
Yep, which is why I would consider something like my example to be pure fluff and roleplay, though if I were playing a paladin and it was something my character would do, I would check with the GM before the scenario started to see where his line on this was, rather than just doing it during the game.
Your examples above would work in a Poly-thiestic setting, PFS is trying to be Mono-thiestic. PCs only get to worship one god.
You almost have that right. There are three ways religion can go. Pantheism: multiple deities exist and you worship some or all of them. Polytheism: multiple deities exist, but have a single patron deity that you worship, while showing respect to, or at least acknowledging the existence of, the others. Monotheism: there is only one god, which you worship, and all other "gods" are false and do not exist. Golarion, and PFS, is polytheistic, not monotheistic.
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or something is just wierd here.Are you sure that she is viewed in her homeland as L/N or L/E? I run Qadirians, and normally view the Dawnflower as N/G... in fact a little C/G, but that is likely my PC showing thru. And I do not list my character as Worshipping the Dawnflower.
I edited that up a little, but in all honesty, I'm not sure. I will take a look, but I'm pretty certain that is the idea presented in most of the flavor for Qadira.
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Ok, my newest PFS character is/was going to be a devout worshiper of drastically opposed faiths - more devout that most clerics, in that he pays a 1% tithe split between the 3 churches (recorded on each chronicle sheet), and will stop in to pray at any of the churches for these three deities that he passes. But I was just going to put 'Poly-theist' in the religion field.
nosig,
I just use dictionary.com since it will usually give several definitions.
And maybe you read the definition for monotheism differently than I do, but the Big Three, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, are monotheistic. There is only one god, all others are false and their followers must be converted or destroyed. Does that exist anywhere on Golarion? For example, if you worship and believe in Sarenrae, does your character go out and denounce the followers of all the other gods or try to bring down their temples? Does your character refuse healing or other "magical" help from followers of the other gods? Do you suffer the existence of these blasphemers and followers of false gods? If not, then you are not monotheistic in your practice of your religion. Monotheism is impossible to have in a fantasy world where there are multiple deities whose followers can display amazing powers on a daily basis that are proof that more than one deity exists.
And as far as I know, Paizo uses the standard definition of atheist for Golarion as well. If you are atheist on Golarion, you do not believe in the existence of any of the deities, no matter how obvious it is to others that they are real.
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nosig,
I just use dictionary.com since it will usually give several definitions.
And maybe you read the definition for monotheism differently than I do, but the Big Three, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, are monotheistic. There is only one god, all others are false and their followers must be converted or destroyed. Does that exist anywhere on Golarion? For example, if you worship and believe in Sarenrae, does your character go out and denounce the followers of all the other gods or try to bring down their temples? Does your character refuse healing or other "magical" help from followers of the other gods? Do you suffer the existence of these blasphemers and followers of false gods? If not, then you are not monotheistic in your practice of your religion. Monotheism is impossible to have in a fantasy world where there are multiple deities whose followers can display amazing powers on a daily basis that are proof that more than one deity exists.
I checked your suggested dictionary.com, but I didn't find any definitions that included the "and their followers must be converted or destroyed bit", or anything even remotely suggesting that a monotheist by definition would try to "bring down [other religions'] temples" or refuse their healing, or that "suffer[ing] the existence of these blashphemers" would mean that you are not really a monotheist.
Although there have certainly been examples of monotheists acting like that in history, it's clearly not part of the definition of monotheism (even using dictionary.com, which you implied was your source). So if, as you said to nosig, that's what you get from how you "read the definition of monotheism"... well, no offense, but that reeks of a personal vendetta.
Going by what's actually in the definitions of monotheism and atheism, they'd be practically the same in Golarion: one denies the existence of every deity, and the other denies the existence of all but one.
If you look for historical real world comparisons, people would make offerings or prayers to certain deities because they were afraid of what could happen if they did not, and not because they respected them. In gaming terms these would definitely be situations where the person and the god were more than one step apart on alignment and would be much more commonly done by someone considering themselves good towards a neutral or evil deity, such as a deity of death or war. Most soldiers/warriors would consider themselves to be good, but most war gods are neutral or evil, yet they will make offerings or prayers to them before battle. It should work the same way in regards to chaos and law, as well. For example, I would see nothing wrong with a paladin doing something that he feels would take the gaze of a trickster-type deity off of him, like toss a couple of coins in the offering bowl in order to avoid bad luck for a few days.
And there's the question of why would you want to worship a god whose tenets are so obviously not a match for your own?
Why would you want to WORSHIP a deity so far off from your own ideology, not 'why would you want to make offerings...' Not the same thing.