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a player wearing any of the shirts listed below during a Pathfinder Society event may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario.
That looks pretty unambiguous to me. Did this GM offer a justification? What would he have done if the shirt was a birthday present? Or if a husband bought matching shirts for him and his wife?
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Respect your GM's wishes. I disagree, and personally I sometimes bring shirts for my players if they need to use one. None of us can come to your table and order your GM to let you share multiple t-shirts. Arguing over this or simply telling your GM that he's wrong may cause him to be resentful or dig his heels in. You need to diplomatically make a point that the rules don't say that you have to own the shirt you use. If your GM won't move then drop it, it's not worth getting bent out of shape over.
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Thx, but are your rulings binding? That is, if I show this thread to a
Judge next time I play, is he required to adhere to it?
The Guide doesn't specify who has to own it, just that a player has to have it at the table with him. I would say that is pretty clear. As Doug advised above, the best course of action is a diplomatic approach.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Martin,
You and I see the shirt re-roll differently. There are a lot of "buy this and get an in-game advantage products out there, and I'm not much of a fan of "buying yourself victory". But I see the shirts differently.
The way I see it, the shirts are there to advertise the game and the campaign. We walk through Gen Con with a lot of Osirion shirts, and other gamers wonder either (a) what's this Osirion game, or else (b) what kind of fast-food restaurant serves beetles? In either case, it gets people wondering, and maybe Googling, and then coming to see what Pathfinder is all about. (Observe, if you will, that players have to wear the shirts, not just bring them to the table.)
In return, the shirts help us keep our PCs alive. (When I GM, I advise players to keep the shirts until they need to (a) get a hit on the NPC who wil otherwise kill you in the next round, (b) get an Acrobatics check to avoid a life-threatening Attack of Opportunity, or (c) succeed in a saving throw. And longer-surviving PCs are also good for the campaign.
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I already tried discussing it with him. He would not move.
Most GMs don't like to take time at the table to figure out a dispute, and would rather just make a temporary ruling and move on for expedience's sake. Unfortunately, some GMs use that as a shield against ever being corrected. It's possible you encountered the latter - in such cases, just don't discuss it until after the game (and again, be diplomatic).
If, however, there's no time pressure and a GM still refuses to abide by written rules, talk to your local VC about it, as we GMs have a responsibility to be fair and equitable to our players by following the rules consistently.
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OK Doug - Thanks for clarifying. I thought, and still do, that this
was a completely arbitrary decision on the Judges part, and I will
probably not buy any more extra shirts due to it.
And the bolded portion above is why the GM is wrong. Why would any rule ever exist that discourages people from spending more money on Paizo products?
I do think a rule change regarding the shirts might be in order, though. All shirts must be cleaned between reroll uses, as judged by the noses of the people sitting on either side of the person requesting the reroll. If someone catches you wearing the same shirt two days in a row at a con, you lose the reroll on the second day.
And again, this encourages people to buy more Paizo products, so they'll have a clean shirt for each day of the con. :P
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You know, having an "unless you smell bad" clause on the re-rolls might not be a bad idea.
Or having it anywhere, for that matter. Maybe something like, "If the GM can smell your body odor at the table, he has the option to bestow one permanent negative level to your character. This is to be marked on the chronicle sheet under 'Conditions Gained' unless removed (as with restoration)."
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I may or may not have been that GM, I don't GM him a lot, and it has been awhile since this came up, but I would like to say a few things about this.
For me at least it came up in the middle of the game after another player made a poor roll, the OP pulled a shirt out of his bag and said "Hey I have an extra shirt here can this player now use it?"
At the time all I saw was that it was not the players shirt, I thought of it as randomly taken advantage of the rule in the middle of the game without and foreknowledge, it could have been any one player who made that roll. Between those 2 I was not going to allow it. He did not agree with me but I wanted to move on so we did. It never came up again and he never talked to me about it after the game.
If on the other hand he gave it to one player to use it before the game and not just wait for any player to make a bad roll I most likely would have allowed it.
So jokem, in the future talk to Me or if it is another GM before the game about it, and not wait for a bad roll from any player to bring it up.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Dragnmoon, I'd agree with you all around.
The exception I've made is a player at GenCon who didn't know about the shirt re-roll rule, ran out to the dealer's room, and came back with a brand new shirt.
In all other situations, I insist that the player be wearing the shirt at the time of the roll.
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Not that ancient posts mean anything but I've frequently seen players pull their faction shirt out of their bag for their re-roll instead of wearing it the whole time and have never seen a GM object.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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OK Doug - Thanks for clarifying. I thought, and still do, that this
was a completely arbitrary decision on the Judges part, and I will
probably not buy any more extra shirts due to it.
Maybe some of it had to do with how you approached it?
I see the whole idea that you are supposed to be *wearing* the shirts to help promote the game. If you just toss it around like it's a game accessory it sort of defeats the purpose of the boon.
I would have no problems with giving you the re-roll, but I can understand why he might be a little put off.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For me at least it came up in the middle of the game after another player made a poor roll, the OP pulled a shirt out of his bag and said "Hey I have an extra shirt here can this player now use it?"
Yeah... I would probably have an issue with that too.
(Though I've seen Care Baird do something very similar for players at tables he is GMing)
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I have to make a confession - I'm running into this problem at my home game on a regular basis. And worst of it - it is self inflicted.
Chat with your GM what he feels comfortable with and what not. Here is how I feel about it.
1) A player shows up with a T-Shirt wearing it - no problem at all
2) A player comes to my table with his T-Shirt in his bag - I prefer players wearing them but hey - it might be winter, it might be the second (third) day of a CON. Go ahead.
3) A player has no own T-Shirt and gets one loaned. I feel less comfortable with that but RAW it is okay.
4) A bad roll happens in play and suddenly a T-Shirt appears from nowhere to be loaned to the player. I roll openly and sometimes a player doesn't deserve the bad roll. So sometimes it can be a help as I it keeps a player alive / moves the play on. At the same time I feel very badly if I feel it gets misused.
So please talk to your GM and find out why he feels this way. In my personal circumstances I have reseigned to a (possible) free re-roll of every player at my home games. There are 10 re-roll eligible T-Shirts in our household plus 2 non-eligible goblin shirts (we are a family of 4 players) plus my fellow GM and regular player has 2 of his own and brings one or two with him as well.
I can't blame anyone apart myself as I bought them. I got even more back from GenCon this year despite my unease how they are used.
On the other hand - sometimes as GM I just make a game so immersed that they lately just forget the option. At least that is what I tell myself observing a significant decline of re-rolls over time at my tables.
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For me at least it came up in the middle of the game after another player made a poor roll, the OP pulled a shirt out of his bag and said "Hey I have an extra shirt here can this player now use it?"
...it could have been any one player who made that roll.
.....
If on the other hand he gave it to one player to use it before the game and not just wait for any player to make a bad roll I most likely would have allowed it.
Ah, very relevant details. Using one shirt to cover the entire table, waiting to apply it to whoever ends up needing it, is a different matter entirely.
Guy next to me can't let me reroll for the shirt he's wearing just because I needed it and he didn't. In the same way, you can't keep a shirt "floating" without committing it to a single person and then put the reroll wherever it's needed.
That's the key right there.
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Ah, very relevant details. Using one shirt to cover the entire table, waiting to apply it to whoever ends up needing it, is a different matter entirely.
Yep - that's my understanding and you would need 6 shirts (or less if there are less players) not causing an issue.
This is easily solved if Paizo would just sell a "Faction Tent" that can be placed over the entire table for $59.99. I won't even (hardly) mention the amazing list of accessories I have in mind for Cheliax faction re-rolls. :-P
But seriously, it hasn't come up in any of my games, but I would say I don't care where the t-shirt comes from but the player would have to be wearing it from start to finish of the session. This is much-a-do about a single re-roll.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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the player would have to be wearing it from start to finish of the session
If the player had been wearing it the whole session it probably wouldn't have ever come up.
This is much-a-do about a single re-roll.
If people didn't make a big deal about little things, the forums would be a lot quieter.
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Per the rules, it must be worn. And I'd interpret the rules to mean that the shirt must be in place before the event for which a re-roll is requested occurs. But what about those wearing the shirt completely hidden under another item of clothing? In my opinion this is completely against the spirit of the rules since the wearing of the shirt is meant to promote the game. If no one sees you wearing it until after you need to use it, does it count?
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Both the RAW and the spirit of the shirt re-roll rules is that the shirt be worn during the event. Perhaps, we need to stress this more to players. However, it can be disruptive for a player to whip out a shirt from her gaming bag and invoke the re-roll, only to be told be the GM no. They did, after all, pay the $25+ to obtain the shirt, and no one really wants to be viewed as a jerky GM.
There are some exceptions however, that need to be considered. How many days in a row do you want your players to wear the same shirt at a convention? Should we reward someone who spends their money on a shirt or should we require them to buy $100 worth of shirts to get the bonus for the entire convention?
Also, anyone who has purchased a shirt knows they come in a somewhat vacuum-sealed tiny triangle package. IMO, the package is cool, but the shirt comes out un-wearably wrinkled. Simple ironing is not sufficient to correct it (I've tried). So that leaves convention go'ers without the ability to benefit from the new shirt purchase.
Not to mention, maybe the shirt is meant to be collectable and the owner wants to keep it in the packaging. Should we deny them the re-roll reward?
In the end, is a single re-roll over the course of a 4-5 hour gaming session all that game-breaking that we need to have such a fuss over it?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In the end, is a single re-roll over the course of a 4-5 hour gaming session all that game-breaking that we need to have such a fuss over it?
Most GMs are sympathetic to the players who are at the whimsy of the dice and are willing to let such things slide. What bothers me a bit is that the sense of entitlement on this has crept so much that people are complaining about the rule being enforced when attempting to use the shirt as a sort of wildcard reroll for a table member who didn't possess the shirt at any point during the session. At some point it's drifted away from the concept of 'promote the game and get a free reroll' into 'spend $20 and get a floating reroll for anyone in your group'.
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At some point it's drifted away from the concept of 'promote the game and get a free reroll' into 'spend $20 and get a floating reroll for anyone in your group'.
I don't see any comments in this thread that even hint that its acceptable to use a shirt as a floating reroll for anybody(Other than Thod saying he might allow it if he was feeling guilty). The question was is it okay to bring two shirts and lend one out before starting game.
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I consider the shirt a once/scenario boon, so a player can only gain one re-roll per scenario AND a particular shirt can only provide one re-roll before its "magic" is spent.
I think it would help to identify, at the outset, which players are in possession of a re-roll. I think I will add this to my initiative card info. That way, I can help remind the player (if I'm feeling benevolent) during the game that they have it available should they want to use it, and I can cross it off when used.
This would also establish how the re-roll will be permitted. No multi-user shirts, or shirts being "magically" produced from a hidden backpack and given to another player, etc. I would like to see the shirt worn, but I understand there are some circumstances that make it unrealistic. I would rather have that discussion before we begin than start an argument in the heat of battle.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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@Rob — I was referring to Dragnmoon's post.
@Bob — I don't see it as needing 'policing'... just sort of a minor grumble
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One of my best friends has a Qadarian T-Shirt in the triangle packing still and brings it to the table every time he plays. We having a running bet that I am going to make him wear that shirt when he needs a Reroll. He has owned that shirt from 3weeks past the release date and I have thrown the kitchen sink at him. That @?$& shirt is still in the original packing and he has never used it as a Reroll.
One day Ryq I am going to get you :-). But now it is years into our running joke over the sake of a one time Reroll.
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At events such as Gencon, I like the option of taking my t-shirt out of my backpack, although I wear it where possible. With 5 days of gaming, it's really nice not having to wear the same t-shirt for all 5 days. It's nice for EVERYONE :).
Also, I'd like to note that the rules say you have to wear the t-shirt, it doesn't say for the entire session. If a GM is a real rules stickler, you can always throw it on for the roll and then take it off.
I don't particularily agree with the "floating t-shirt" concept, the t-shirt should belong to only one person, predetermined at the start of the scenario, if it's not worn. It's owned by whoever has it, if it's not stated up front.
I'd rather PFS be slightly relaxed regarding re-rolls than ultra strict. Having said that, not many people have the t-shirts, including my entire home group.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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With 5 days of gaming, it's really nice not having to wear the same t-shirt for all 5 days. It's nice for EVERYONE :).
It's not a binary thing, you can also...
It's just a reroll, it's not a huge deal to forgo it for sanitary purposes.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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*shrug*
I guess I'm in high snark mode the last couple days.
As you suggest, no-one is likely to enforce it. I just think it's kind of watered down the whole point of the rule. What's next "Its a PITA packing for a con. I have a shirt at home I can show you a picture of me wearing it on my iPhone"?
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I have bought two faction shirts. Once Judge says I cannot loan one
of them to another player before the mod starts to use after play
starts.I don't think that is right.
Where do I go to get a ruling on this?
Just have the other player say "I'm a werewolf, its in my contract" take off one shirt and put the other one on.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Also, I'd like to note that the rules say you have to wear the t-shirt, it doesn't say for the entire session. If a GM is a real rules stickler, you can always throw it on for the roll and then take it off.
At my table, Jason, you'll need to wear the shirt during the original roll that you want to re-roll. So, it's fair to say "I'm going to need to make this Fortitude save" and don your shirt for the roll, cheesy as that is, but I won't let you roll, pull out your shirt, and then ask for a re-roll.
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Also, I'd like to note that the rules say you have to wear the t-shirt, it doesn't say for the entire session. If a GM is a real rules stickler, you can always throw it on for the roll and then take it off.At my table, Jason, you'll need to wear the shirt during the original roll that you want to re-roll. So, it's fair to say "I'm going to need to make this Fortitude save" and don your shirt for the roll, cheesy as that is, but I won't let you roll, pull out your shirt, and then ask for a re-roll.
Jason, if you tried what you suggest at the table of a GM who is a real rules stickler, I do not think you would be happy with the results.
While I'd prefer to see a player wear the shirt so that it is recognizable in a manner as to promote the game for the entire session, I suppose the interpretation Chris provides is satisfactory.
