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I am a fan of random encounter tables, so expanded bestiaries to fit the location are great in my book.
I just started in on studying CC3, and the poor map bogeyman has returned. The first encounter is with a HUGE creature in a cave whose only entrance is less than 10 x 10 and leads from a one-room tower ruin to a one-room cave. Why even have a map?
The subsystems take an EXCEPTIONALLY long amount of time to get right and to integrate. The popularity of Kingmaker and its subsystems is mostly to blame for us going on to include similar subsystem elements.
Starting with Shattered Star, though... subsystem light the APs shall be.
(Prepares for backlash from those who LIKE subsystems...)
+1 on the backlash. Sad.
Guess that's why I liked Kingmaker so much...
(Now, I'm not saying one should go crazy with subsystems, but they're needed, AFAIC.)
Must say I like the sound of less crazy big subsystems. Having some APs that rely on some new subsystem is okay, but having most of them do that is getting old. Jade Regent especially seemed to go a bit over the top...
Also, I must say I love the NPC gallery thing in Jade Regent. Makes them more interesting, and gathers it all in one place, fantastic!
I have nothing to say about subsystems one way or another, but I really do like the NPC gallery and item sections of Jade Regent. I really liked the production quality and layout on Jade Regent.
As someone who never really runs anything "out of the box", I have to say that the subsystems are one of the few things that would draw me into getting the AP's as they can be readily adapted to any campaign (even those like mine who draw heavily on TSR/WotC/Hasbro IP).
Fortunately for me, it sounds like the pirate AP will still have at least one subsystem, so I will be subscribing to it when the ninja AP is done and I can get my pirate on :)
-TimD
I think the art and layout on Jade Regent were simply amazing, the best I've seen in any AP. The maps were mind-blowingly cool.
I have to agree I every product in the Pathfinder Line and these have been the best overall with Layout and Art
I love the NPC Gallerys and the Index of Items and the interactive maps are great
I think the art and layout on Jade Regent were simply amazing, the best I've seen in any AP. The maps were mind-blowingly cool.
I love the art in Jade Regent-- mostly because it shows the iconics alongside the named NPCs, which I think is awesome.
To offer a contrary opinion, it's the stuff like the ancillary articles and the bestiaries that makes the adventure paths so useful to me. I'm a charter subscriber, yet I've only run one adventure path, ever, and in that one the players are still in part one.
The same goes for the modules; I'm still backfilling a little there, but as with the adventure paths, the extra material in the modules is what makes them as valuable as they are.
To me, the adventure paths are a superb replacement for Dungeon and The Dragon, both of which I still miss. So, in my opinion, don't change a thing! I like the subsystems (though I usually wait for playtesting, as some of them seem to end up being klunky in practice) and use the other materials extensively.
I love the art in Jade Regent-- mostly because it shows the iconics alongside the named NPCs, which I think is awesome.
Why would that be a bonus? I think it's great only if your party runs iconics as their characters, which I don't think many people are doing. Every time I show a piece of art to my players, I have a mental sigh because I hate saying:
So this is how this encounter looks like, only these people are actually you.
I love the art in Jade Regent-- mostly because it shows the iconics alongside the named NPCs, which I think is awesome.Why would that be a bonus? I think it's great only if your party runs iconics as their characters, which I don't think many people are doing. Every time I show a piece of art to my players, I have a mental sigh because I hate saying:
So this is how this encounter looks like, only these people are actually you.
The iconics are just there as stand-ins anyways. I hardly ever show my PCs a piece of art including iconics, but when I do, it's for "This dragon" or "this thing" instead of "this scene," if you know what I mean?
I like that the book's art is tied very closely to the book's contents, instead of in some previous paths where there are pieces of art where you're just like, wait, what the hell is going on here? What is happening? Is this even in the book?
Anyone else get a sense of deja vu with Zaiobe in Jade Regent (PF #49) and Undrella in Legacy of Fire (PF #19)?
For one I would like to see an introductory adventure for each AP, not like "We Be Goblins" (although that was fun) but something that introduces the setting, npc/pc's to each other, etc. In Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Curse of the Crimson Throne there is a lot of suspension of disbelief in the beginning since all the players have to jump right in and start the path regardless of not really knowing anyone (yet having to roleplay that they are, for example, Ameiko's illegitimate younger sister) or where the city/town is, and the surrounding area is all one big mystery even though it should be really familiar to them since they lived their entire lives there.
Sure some of this can be explained away as the point of role-playing, it just feels as if the AP's would be more immersive if there was a first adventure to build that immersion. Perhaps a very short adventure where the party encounters travelers injured by the goblins and must give a report to the Sheriff, interact with locals. It doesn't even need to give them more than 1/2 a level of xp...
I would love to be able to write this up myself, unfortunately I am lucky that I can run a game on an infrequent basis as it is.
I think that if the various sub-systems were updated, mechanically fixed, expanded, and playtested, that they'd make a great start to a hardcover rule book. Then when they're fine tuned to work well, they could be much more easily used in future APs, without having to invent them in an already rushed development timeline.
I, personally, think a sub-system hardcover book/pdf would be useful. I suppose the big issue is cost vs. demand. At least a pdf would be a great resource to the gamer.
For one I would like to see an introductory adventure for each AP, not like "We Be Goblins" (although that was fun) but something that introduces the setting, npc/pc's to each other, etc. In Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Curse of the Crimson Throne there is a lot of suspension of disbelief in the beginning since all the players have to jump right in and start the path regardless of not really knowing anyone (yet having to roleplay that they are, for example, Ameiko's illegitimate younger sister) or where the city/town is, and the surrounding area is all one big mystery even though it should be really familiar to them since they lived their entire lives there.
Sure some of this can be explained away as the point of role-playing, it just feels as if the AP's would be more immersive if there was a first adventure to build that immersion. Perhaps a very short adventure where the party encounters travelers injured by the goblins and must give a report to the Sheriff, interact with locals. It doesn't even need to give them more than 1/2 a level of xp...I would love to be able to write this up myself, unfortunately I am lucky that I can run a game on an infrequent basis as it is.
A short intro would be great, perhaps at zero level. One of the best homebrews I ever played in began with the PC being zero level (or commoner) with only a few trade skills that were suitable for class we were entering. I happened to play a locksmith, who turned out to be the party rogue. It was fun and by the time we hit first level we had a few extra skill points.
The problem with an introductory adventure that introduces the PCs to everything they should know at the start is that it really needs to be tailored to the players to work well.
That said, I think they are INVALUABLE for the adventure path... they just take a lot of customization so I am not sure that they would work if Paizo made them as a one size fits all sort of thing.
Imagine the different info that someone from the area vs someone who just walked into town for the first time would know. What if the whole group is from out of town? What if they are all locals? Either one throws off assumptions of the other.
Worse, how do you give a 100 year old elf all his knowledge?
Anyway... it is a great idea, I just don't know how to pull it off from a generic, we don't actually know who will be playing point of view.
Sean Mahoney
The problem with an introductory adventure that introduces the PCs to everything they should know at the start is that it really needs to be tailored to the players to work well.
Yea, I remember rewriting the beginning of Kingmaker. I made the characters save a Brevoy official that was incharage of getting people to scout out the land and pacify it. That both introduced the characters to each other and gave them a good reason why they got the grant to begin with.
I don't know if that would work for large groups of people or if that just worked for my group. I imagine other groups would require something different for their groups.
For one I would like to see an introductory adventure for each AP, not like "We Be Goblins" (although that was fun) but something that introduces the setting, npc/pc's to each other, etc. In Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Curse of the Crimson Throne there is a lot of suspension of disbelief in the beginning since all the players have to jump right in and start the path regardless of not really knowing anyone (yet having to roleplay that they are,
I thought that was the point of the Players' Guide?
While an intro adventure would be valuable to some, no doubt, I agree with the others that the customization required for each individual group would make it impossible to commercially write. The Players' Guide is the closest thing that can be reasonably made.
I could honestly live quite happily without the bestiary or fiction sections of the APs. True I enjoyed the heck out of the Eando Kline stories from PFs 2-18, but I can't say I've been inspired by anything I've read since.
I'm also rarely in the market for new monsters either, especially if it's not related to the adventure at hand.
What I've *really* liked are the setting-building articles like the descriptions of Brevoy and Iobaria in Kingmaker, the Varisian and Shoanti cultural articles in Crimson Throne, and, of course, the deity columns by Sean K.
In fact, I'd say the reason I enjoyed the Eando Kline stories so much was that they provided a nice descriptive flavor to Varisia that would easily translate into bringing the first few APs to life. Later entries I read weren't nearly as useful for that.
What I'd like to see more of for the support articles in APs are more articles which worked so well as Wormfood/Savage Tidings articles in the ol' Dragon days. During those pre-Pathfinder APs, there'd be monthly articles of direct use to the players such as where to buy high-fashion clothes for the upcoming royal dinner or options for pimping out their ship. Those entries really helped make the players active participants in bringing the world to life and helped me as a DM provide appropriate atmosphere for the adventure beyond the actual dungeon.
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I think starting out as a zero level commoner is something that should be unique for a particular AP rather than the standard kick off. It would get old pretty fast.
I don't think the APs need an intro adventure to bind the PCs as its really up to the players (with a bit of GM help) to ensure the group has met each other. Thats all part of the backstory stuff and player prep for a campaign.
I'd like to see some non-combat based challenges in the APs. Diplomatic/Talk based encounters and even skill based challenges.
I think starting out as a zero level commoner is something that should be unique for a particular AP rather than the standard kick off. It would get old pretty fast.
Agreed. At the same time that one AP would be FANTASTIC! The first adventure could just be getting to level 1 so it would have a whole different level of challenges than we see in a typical AP lvl 1 adventure, setting it apart nicely.
Additionally, having some backmatter support on how to make 0 lvl characters in Pathfinder would likely be a draw even for people not interested in running the AP (a lot of people, though not all, are looking for this option).
But yeah, not every time.
I'd like to see some non-combat based challenges in the APs. Diplomatic/Talk based encounters and even skill based challenges.
The more the merrier there, as far as I am concerned. The problem is there is a big group of people (not sure it is the majority though) who aren't as fond of it so it can't really get ramped up excessively. Still... let's get as many in as we can!
Sean Mahoney
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Something I've noticed about the Carrion Crown that bugs me, is the use of suicidal tactics for intelligent, high CR creatures.