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| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
My DM recently pointed out to me that by RAW, all emanations have a point-shaped center on an intersection of grid lines, and thus all 10' radius emanations must look like this:
(this is
empty
space)
OXXO
XXXX
XXXX
OXXO
I can see that make sense for something like, say, Cloudkill... but for Magic Circle Against Evil, the description says that the origin of the emanation is the target creature.
So does this spell modify the normal shape of an emanation to originate from the surface of a creature out to 10'?
OXXXO
XXXXX
XXCXX
XXXXX
OXXXO
Or do you have to pick an intersection within your creature's footprint as the origin?
OXXO
XXCX
XXXX
OXXO
The latter looks goofy and renders the spell increasingly less useful for larger creatures, but by RAW it seems the preferred solution (though it does require some extra assumptions as well — for instance, can you freely pick which intersection to use? can you use the corner of a 10' creature?).
What's the official ruling on this?
Specifics override the general. This is centered on the creature.
I am nearly positive that with emanations bursts and spreads that are 'centered' on a creature you are supposed to choose one of the corners (intersections) of the target creatures square, for a larger or larger creature you can choose a corner of any square that the creature occupied.
Mh. I always use option B.
That would mean that a larger creature casting the spell would end up with a larger area of effect, which doesn't seem right.
That would mean that a larger creature casting the spell would end up with a larger area of effect, which doesn't seem right.
Well, other way round, what if a huge or gargantuan creature casts it? No area of effect at all?
That would mean that a larger creature casting the spell would end up with a larger area of effect, which doesn't seem right.Well, other way round, what if a huge or gargantuan creature casts it? No area of effect at all?
not true, since the creature could choose any corner of any square it occupied it would certainly have an area of effect, it is just that the whole creature might not be in it.
Which is kind of silly. "Dear dr. Phil. My head is protected from good, but that pesky lawful good fighter keeps hitting my tail with ease anyway. What should I do?"
That would mean that a larger creature casting the spell would end up with a larger area of effect, which doesn't seem right.
I definitely like it better than only the front paw of a dragon radiating the circle, while his hind parts poke out.
My point is that no other spells have changes to their area of effects based on the size of a creature that cast them (or that they are cast upon), logically then, why would a 'creature centered' emanation?
Where in the magic rules is it even suggested that such is possible?
Build me a valid, reasoned, and true argument about why I am wrong in this from a rules perspective (not just 'I think it is dumb that the dragons butt sticks out of the circle') and I will happily admit my error and even change the way I run it my games.
My point is that no other spells have changes to their area of effects based on the size of a creature that cast them (or that they are cast upon), logically then, why would a 'creature centered' emanation?
Why would the area of any other spell be effected by the size of the target? It makes no sense, only for "Area: XX-ft.-radius emanation centered on target creature" type spells.
My point is that no other spells have changes to their area of effects based on the size of a creature that cast them (or that they are cast upon), logically then, why would a 'creature centered' emanation?
Because emanations emanate from something. Normal emanations are centered on a point in space. That means they are all the same size/shape because a point in space is always the same "size." Anything within 10' of that point in space is affected.
But emanating from a creature is not emanating from a point in space that happens to overlap with a creature, it is emanating from that creature.
And when a spell emanates from a creature, it emanates from something with a variable size. Therefore, since it emanates 10' from that creature, anyone who is 10' away from the creature or less should be affected. It is very simple logic.
Where in the magic rules is it even suggested that such is possible?
Where in the magic rules is it suggested that when a spell emanates from a creature, that creature should pick some intersection it is touching to be the center point? I have to say, there is far less evidence for that sort of interpretation than the alternative.
Edit: It doesn't really even make sense. Who chooses the corner? The caster? The target creature? What happens when the creature moves? There's no facing, so you can't really be sure which corner is the correct corner after moving, so it needs to be adjusted. Can I spin in a circle in my space to have the emanation spin around me and hit more than it could otherwise? There's just no precedent for this sort of interpretation.
OK first, the actual rules:
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
So it actually makes pretty decent sense. In your original example:
(0 is zero)
0AB0
CDEF
GHIJ
0KL0
You could be standing in E, D, H, or I. Squares C, G, K, L, A, B, F, and J might not be fully covered by exact measurements, but they still count. The 0 squares may have a tiny edge of the circle, but they're not counted.
The whole point is that it's an abstraction that is used to easily adjudicate things you'd need a ruler/compass to measure.
The grid intersection is actually usually a better choice than to do something funky like saying the spell originates in the middle of a square. That's because you get the flexibility of deciding which corner it comes out of.
Another question is: is the corner you pick static or can you shift the corner around? I would think it would be quite difficult to change the point of origination without some sort of action. I would rule that it wouldn't be possible shift the origination point unless the spell says you can.
Just fudge it. Draw a roughly 2" circle around the caster and there you go, magic circle. Something sits on the edge of the circle, just say they are literally on the edge of the circle and they cannot go any further.
Detonate
School evocation [acid, cold, electricity, or fire]; Level alchemist 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (two vials; one containing acid and one containing an alkaline solution worth a total of 50 gp)
EFFECT
Range 30 ft.
Area 30-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration 1 round, then instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
You flood yourself with a potent surge of elemental energy.
One round after completing the casting of the spell, the energy explodes from your body.
When this spell creates the explosion of energy, choose one of the following four energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The explosion inflicts 1d8 points of damage of that energy type per caster level (maximum 10d8) to all creatures and unattended objects within 15 feet, and half that amount to targets past 15 feet but within 30 feet. You automatically take half damage from the explosion, without a Saving Throw, but any other energy resistance or energy immunity effects you may have in place can prevent or lessen this overflow damage caused by the explosion.
How about this spell as a great example of why a spell can emanate from a creature and not a point in space. Unless in your logic casting this spell hurts the caster also on top of the text. :)
Once again, the specifics override the general.
This is the general rule:
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.
This is the specific rule that overrides the general rule:
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
Actually, can you please show in PRD where the following is true? (:
Once again, the specifics override the general.
Also, the phrase used is "always". That means without exception.
Furthermore, the origin of a spell isn't the same thing as the location of a creature. They're talking about two different things.
I have a more authoritative source than the PRD ;)
This is one case where the spell overrides the more general rules from the school description. Create Water can make it rain.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space.
That is just as absolute as this text in question.
I've seen developers change their minds on the forums and post the opposite of what they originally said. . . so technically I could use either saying -- without context -- and say "the developers said it, so it's true". At least with rules we have official errata to document changes.
But either way, a creature's positioning and a spell's origination are two different things. "From a creature" simply means a square that the creature is in or partially resides in. A spell's origination is always from a corner.
Otherwise, you end up in situations like cwslyclgh said where either the spell area must be increased arbitrarily or the spell area is absorbed by the creature's size (and possibly useless).
Actually, can you please show in PRD where the following is true? (:
Once again, the specifics override the general.Also, the phrase used is "always". That means without exception.
It means without exception unless something specific comes along to override the general rule.
Specifics always override general rules. The stat block and text of a spell supercede the general text of the magic section, just as the stat block and text of a feat supercede the general text of the combat section.
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We use eminations as starting at the edge of the creature, not the center. Bursts and emanations are two very different things. If light is emanating ten feet from an object and the object is an opaque thirty foot sphere, light is not starting at the center and not getting out, its going ten feet from the outer edge. The actual volume of the spell area does change, depending on the creature size, but the actual distance from the creature never changes.
.
.
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.
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This would be a 5' emanation on a large creature would work in the way that makes the most sense to us.
0000000
0XXXX00
0XCCX00
0XCCX00
0XXXX00
0000000
0000000
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My point is that no other spells have changes to their area of effects based on the size of a creature that cast them (or that they are cast upon), logically then, why would a 'creature centered' emanation?Because emanations emanate from something. Normal emanations are centered on a point in space. That means they are all the same size/shape because a point in space is always the same "size." Anything within 10' of that point in space is affected.
But emanating from a creature is not emanating from a point in space that happens to overlap with a creature, it is emanating from that creature.
And when a spell emanates from a creature, it emanates from something with a variable size. Therefore, since it emanates 10' from that creature, anyone who is 10' away from the creature or less should be affected. It is very simple logic.
Where in the magic rules is it even suggested that such is possible?Where in the magic rules is it suggested that when a spell emanates from a creature, that creature should pick some intersection it is touching to be the center point? I have to say, there is far less evidence for that sort of interpretation than the alternative.
Edit: It doesn't really even make sense. Who chooses the corner? The caster? The target creature? What happens when the creature moves? There's no facing, so you can't really be sure which corner is the correct corner after moving, so it needs to be adjusted. Can I spin in a circle in my space to have the emanation spin around me and hit more than it could otherwise? There's just no precedent for this sort of interpretation.
+1, +1
This is why I voted for hexes instead of those pesky squares. :) But NOOOOOOOO, everyone wants straight walls and not zig-zags.
Master Arminas
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I think the "creature origin" interpretation is superior to the "point origin" interpretation, since it doesn't requires the user to make up new rules. How do you pick a corner within the creature's space? Does it have to be the center of a Large creature? Can you change it? When? How?
Please FAQ this.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I just want to point out that if it's radiating from the entire skin of the creature, it's not a 10 foot radius. A 10 foot radius circle has a diameter of 20 feet, a specific area, etc.
There are other spells which function as a spread which can be cast on a part of a creature, all of the light spells, all of the darkness spells. Protection from evil works exactly the same as those, it forms a 10 foot radius emanation from that point.
I'll turn the question a bit. If a lightning bolt or a fireball hits a dragon, and doesn't cover his entire body, does the dragon still take the full effects of the spell? Why would protection from evil be any different?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Does the radius of detonate also expand with larger creatures?
I just want to point out that if it's radiating from the entire skin of the creature, it's not a 10 foot radius. A 10 foot radius circle has a diameter of 20 feet, a specific area, etc.
A radius of a circle or sphere is any line segment from its center to its perimeter. Normally, the center of a circle/sphere is a point in space, but in this case, the center is the creature, which can be of various sizes.
Plus, this power does not create a 10' radius circle, it creates a 10' radius emanation.
There are other spells which function as a spread which can be cast on a part of a creature, all of the light spells, all of the darkness spells.
No, those spells must be cast on objects as far as I can see.
Protection from evil works exactly the same as those, it forms a 10 foot radius emanation from that point.
From what point? Again, as I said a few posts up:
"Who chooses the corner? The caster? The target creature? What happens when the creature moves? There's no facing, so you can't really be sure which corner is the correct corner after moving, so it needs to be adjusted. Can I spin in a circle in my space to have the emanation spin around me and hit more than it could otherwise? There's just no precedent for this sort of interpretation."
I'll turn the question a bit. If a lightning bolt or a fireball hits a dragon, and doesn't cover his entire body, does the dragon still take the full effects of the spell? Why would protection from evil be any different?
This doesn't turn the question any. First of all, it's a totally different effect:
If I hit you in the left hand with an arrow, I hurt you. But if you have a shield up that only protects your left hand and arm, I can still hit you on the other arm, legs, or head. It's the difference between attack and defense.
But really, even if the protection spell protected your entire self if a tiny part of you were in it, that's still not relevant to the main problem with your theory--who sets the corner and how does it move with a creature, and where in the rules is this even suggested as being the correct way to handle it?
Does the radius of detonate also expand with larger creatures?
Yes.
The center of a circle is a POINT. Maybe you should look that up while you are digging around wikipedia.
The center is usually a point. But ok, if you're correct about that, how about actually addressing the questions asked several times: where is that point and who decides?
Let's say you cast Magic Circle against Good on your Ogre henchman. Where does it emanate from? Do you pick or does he? Let's say he walks around, who determines the "point" it emanates from as he goes?
If you cast light on a 50' rope, the rope glows from one place.
I don't agree that it glows from only a single spot on the rope. That makes no sense to me for the exact same reason I argued the above points about Magic Circles.
Who determines where the glow emanates from?
That is basically what I asked you above, and since I disagree with your premise, I can't really answer myself.
Isn't it reasonable to determine how it radiates from a creature in a similar fashion?
The key issue is that there is no facing in Pathfinder.
How does the caster place the effect, assuming he gets to pick? Does he say, "that corner" or does he say, "I center it on his left big toe!" Because either case has issues.
If the caster puts it on a corner, what happens when the PC moves? What point on him is occupying that corner? Because a person "occupies" a 5' square, but isn't physically in every spot at once. What body part is the effect centered on? Can the target of the Magic Circle decide what corner is affected at will by just shifting his body?
On the other hand, if the caster puts it on a body part or whatever, can the recipient then decide what corner it originates from? What if the caster says it starts on his right arm (the guy's sword arm). Then the recipient attacks someone. Can he still claim the originating corner is the back left one (with this orientation being judged from the assumption that he's facing the guy he's attacking)?
The whole thing is messy.
Further, auras are emanations from a creature and the description of an Aura in the Bestiary is:
Aura: If the creature has a particular magical or exceptional aura, it is listed here along with its radius from the creature and, as applicable, a save DC to resist the aura's effects.
Emphasis mine. It does not talk about the radius from a point in space, it talks about its radius from the creature.
I would like to point out that White dragons have a 5 foot aura of cold.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't agree that it glows from only a single spot on the rope. That makes no sense to me for the exact same reason I argued the above points about Magic Circles.
Suddenly spells are much more powerful based on what you cast them on? Daylight is a 1 mile long 120' wide effect (if cast on a 1 mile long string)? That makes zero sense at all.
Emanations emanate from a point. The fact that they are ON a creature or on an object doesn't change this. This is the only consistent way the rule work, when you start mucking around with what a radius is and other bizarreness then you get the problems you keep referring to.
You cast light on the end of a rope. Where the light emanates from is determined by where that end of the rope is.
You cast magic circle (or detonate) on a creature's nose (or tail or hand). Where that light is is determined by where that creatures nose is, so that creature controls where the effect is.
The fact that there is no facing does not mean that creatures do not have position and orientation. If you put a lantern on the end of a lance, the character positions the end of the lance and the light emanates from there. That is the position of the lance. It does not affect where the character can attack, it's is positioning. Similarly you can control the position of your nose without affecting where you can attack. Positioning is not facing.
It's consistent, it works with all the game rules and doesn't cause weirdness and effects that change in size based on what you cast them on.
Suddenly spells are much more powerful based on what you cast them on? Daylight is a 1 mile long 120' wide effect (if cast on a 1 mile long string)? That makes zero sense at all.
Is Daylight powerful to begin with? Honestly, if you can even make a mile long string and actually lay it out in a mile long pattern that is actually beneficial to you, then I'm fine with this.
Emanations emanate from a point.
Or a creature. ;)
The fact that they are ON a creature or on an object doesn't change this. This is the only consistent way the rule work, when you start mucking around with what a radius is and other bizarreness then you get the problems you keep referring to.
I just don't understand this. There's no mucking around if you use it the way I am talking. You just measure--is someone within 10' of me? Yes? Ok, it affects them. Very simple. I don't get how this is more complicated than an effect emanating from a creature actually emanating from some single point contained on or in that creature.
It's consistent, it works with all the game rules and doesn't cause weirdness and effects that change in size based on what you cast them on.
I don't think effects changing size is weirder than the Adult White Dragon's cold aura being unable to deal damage to both creatures flanking it.
Especially considering the text of the ability is:
"An adult white dragon radiates an aura of cold. All creatures within 5 feet of the dragon take 1d6 points of cold damage at the beginning of the dragon's turn."
the dragons cold aura is not a spell emanation, and doesn't necessarily work the same way one does, in the dragon's case, all creatures within 1 square (5 feet) of the dragon take the damage.
comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.
the dragons cold aura is not a spell emanation, and doesn't necessarily work the same way one does, in the dragon's case, all creatures within 1 square (5 feet) of the dragon take the damage.
comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.
An aura is an emanation though.
Look at the dragon bane aura for example.
Specifics always override general rules.
What are these specifics? Where are they at?
A feat explicitly says what it does and what happens without the feat. If the feat analogy carried to the spell stat block, it would have to state in each spell the exception to the magic section.
If you're going to break a rule, you have to state what the broken rule is. You can't just assume that rules are broken left and right without consequence.
I would like to point out that White dragons have a 5 foot aura of cold.
An aura is an emanation though.
Incorrect. An emanation radiates "from the point of origin." Auras radiate from a creature. A creature is not a point.
The rules for auras aren't mentioned in the magic section. In fact, there's really no section to explain auras. If you look at an example of an aura (say, stench) it gives a specific distance from the creature, not from a point in space. Creatures that far away from the stinky creature are affected. But spell effects work differently. As the PRD says:
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.