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Does darkness or deeper darkness protect vampires from sunlight? I have a noble drow vampire and a black dragon vampire who want to know.
There is a specific spell called Protective Penumbra that would protect them from sunlight, so I doubt Darkness provides them that protection. There's also a cantrip version of it that might have been renamed, which was only called Penumbra. Both are found in the SRD online.
There is a specific spell called Protective Penumbra that would protect them from sunlight, so I doubt Darkness provides them that protection. There's also a cantrip version of it that might have been renamed, which was only called Penumbra. Both are found in the SRD online.
SRD is not official, but a 3rd-party site. Mind giving the official source?
EDIT: Never mind. Found it in the official PRD (and Ultimate Magic).
Looking at it, I'm not sure how it keeps darkness or deeper darkness from doing the same thing. Darkness is a level higher, so it stands to reason it could do more. Furthermore, Protective Penumbra simply "keeps the target slightly in shadow" which is exactly what darkness would do.
Looking at it from that perspective, you COULD say Darkness would protect the target from sunlight, but a DM might see that as an attempt at munchkining by killing the main weakness of a vampire off. Then again, spellcasters can always Dispel the effect.
Protective Penumbra protects you, and only you, and it protects you without adjusting the light levels in the area. It lasts 10 times longer than darkness. Just because it exists doesn't mean that darkness doesn't work too.
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Creatures with light sensitivity are dazzled in areas of bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, M/DF (bat fur and a piece of coal)
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noThis spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
So yes, Darkness protects against light sensitivity as long as you are inside the 20 ft that lowers the level. Light sensitivity ONLY kicks in if you are in bright sunlight. Normal light doesn't do it.
Vampires on the other hand, are not so clear.
Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight staggers it on the first round of exposure and destroys it utterly on the second consecutive round of exposure if it does not escape.
So the question would be, is sunlight filtered through a darkness spell still considered direct? If it is, then the vampire's toast anyway. I'd say that yeah, probably, the vampire is still toast. He's still in direct sunlight, just not as much of it. However, there's nothing in there about how much direct sunlight he has to be in. Theoretically, if he's got a 1 inch spot of direct sunlight on him, he goes poof.
I'm not sure even Deeper Darkness would work for a vampire, for this reason. I think Vampires are pretty much stuck with Protective Penumbra, as it specifically says it protects vampires.
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I think you should start with a ever more basic question:
A vampire outside, in daylight in a day with medium cloud cover, is damaged or not?
Today the sky is cloudy where I live. If I look out of the window I can see perfectly for kilometres, but I don't see shadows or patches of sunlight anywhere as the light is diffused by the cloud cover.
If under those condition a vampire can move unhindered by the sun, darkness should protect him from direct sunlight during a cloudless day (unless you rule that the sun count as a level 10+ light spell), if you feel that that kind of illumination will still damage a vampire I think darkness will not protect him.
As the "vampires harmed by sunlight" thing was introduced by Hollywood I think we can go with that imagery. So it is only the directed, unfiltered ray of the sun that damage them. The weakness description seem to support that "Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight staggers it on the first round of exposure and destroys it utterly on the second consecutive round of exposure if it does not escape". (if you have seen some of those old BW films it was the direct rays of the sun that damaged the vampire. For dramatic purposes the advancing rays of the sun burned them by inches.)
So I would say that a darkness spell will protect the vampire.
Note: probably I will rule in my home game that direct sunlight should be treated as a high level light spell for dispelling darkness, but that is a houserule. As I hadn't considered this kind of ramification the final decision is pending.
Just beware, if you rule direct sunlight is a 10th level spell, you're negating darkness spells in a lot of ways. You can't use them in buildings that have windows, since direct sunlight coming in from outside will kill the spell.
I think it works fine as is, it only affects a 20ft area, and it only lowers the light level, it doesn't negate the sunlight. So even deeper darkness only makes things dim in direct sunlight (basically torch light). And that's a major darkness spell.
I think this subject is FAQ worthy.
The light level is dropped to that of "underneath a forest canopy during the day", which noone would call direct sunlight.
In my opinion, that the light level is dropped by the spell means it is being filtered, and thus no longer direct.
Keep in mind that Darkness is of rather short duration, and that Daylight or Dispel Magic would put you in grave danger. (The former doesn't even need a saving throw.)
Black dragons and noble drow get it as an at-will spell-like ability. :)
Looking at it from that perspective, you COULD say Darkness would protect the target from sunlight, but a DM might see that as an attempt at munchkining by killing the main weakness of a vampire off. Then again, spellcasters can always Dispel the effect.
I can't believe you would even accuse Ravingdork of that. He's merely trying to figure out how the spell works, not trying to game the system in some way, by getting spells to do just a little more than they were intended to do by dissecting every spell description like they were the dead sea scrolls, looking for loopholes.
Seriously, this is another one that's been coming up since 3,0. It's kinda crappy to get rid of a Vampire's major weakness with something as simple, and cheap, as a persistant "darkness" item. Every Anne Rice fan in existence has tried to get this past a DM at some point, because, hey, nothing's better, narratively that removing a creature's main weakness with a cheap exploit.
Black dragons and noble drow get it as an at-will spell-like ability. :)
Which is why you don't want to use the spell that's exactly designed for this function (Protective Penumbra), instead getting a similar spell that has a different design function and squeezing just a little more out of it.
If you're the DM, why not just say that Noble Drow Vampires and Black Dragon Vampires (do those even exist in PF?) get protective Penumbra instead of Darkness? As a sort of beneficial mutation?
Do those even exist in PF?
Do those even exist in PF?Of course they do.
Indeed!
Do those even exist in PF?Of course they do.
I'm going to go out on a limb and possibly show off my ignorance... is this a Pathfinder published dragon NPC or something homemade using the template system? I'm guessing the later as it's named after a character from the Silmarillion.
Either way it's a heck of stylish and unexpected opponent for a party.
I'm guessing the later as it's named after a character from the Silmarillion.
Really? I pulled it out of an Elven dictionary. Supposedly it means "Bloodstained."
Well in 3.5 this was a yes.
One of the adventures published for Ebberron "Whispers of the Vampire's Blade" used this tactic if the party managed to catch the main bad guy out in the sun while his sister was around to keep him from ashing.
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Just beware, if you rule direct sunlight is a 10th level spell, you're negating darkness spells in a lot of ways. You can't use them in buildings that have windows, since direct sunlight coming in from outside will kill the spell.
I think it works fine as is, it only affects a 20ft area, and it only lowers the light level, it doesn't negate the sunlight. So even deeper darkness only makes things dim in direct sunlight (basically torch light). And that's a major darkness spell.
10th level maybe is too high, but I feel that it should be treated as least as a effect as strong as the sunlight power of a sun blade.
That power hasn't a specific caster level, but as it require a CL 10 to be added to a sword I would think it is equivalent to a level 5 spells. Note that that is true only for direct sunlight, i.e. the rays of the sun when not blocked by clouds, fog or other things.Specific spells created to resist to the sunlight can bypass that limitation.
Does darkness or deeper darkness protect vampires from sunlight? I have a noble drow vampire and a black dragon vampire who want to know.
Tricky question and open to interpretations. I think by RAW the answer is unclear, but no is more reasonable an interpretation than yes. The name of the spell aside, all darkness would do in direct sunight is make the sunlight a bit less bright.
Looking at it from that perspective, you COULD say Darkness would protect the target from sunlight, but a DM might see that as an attempt at munchkining by killing the main weakness of a vampire off. Then again, spellcasters can always Dispel the effect.I can't believe you would even accuse Ravingdork of that. He's merely trying to figure out how the spell works, not trying to game the system in some way, by getting spells to do just a little more than they were intended to do by dissecting every spell description like they were the dead sea scrolls, looking for loopholes.
Seriously, this is another one that's been coming up since 3,0. It's kinda crappy to get rid of a Vampire's major weakness with something as simple, and cheap, as a persistant "darkness" item. Every Anne Rice fan in existence has tried to get this past a DM at some point, because, hey, nothing's better, narratively that removing a creature's main weakness with a cheap exploit.
Calm down, I was NOT accusing him of anything. I merely pointed out that a DM could possibly take it the wrong way, which is something I would not want happening if it makes sense that Darkness can and should work that way...
I'm guessing the later as it's named after a character from the Silmarillion.Really? I pulled it out of an Elven dictionary. Supposedly it means "Bloodstained."
It does... the character in question has taken it for just that reason.
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/agarwaen.html
I will now stop talking about the Silmarillion as I haven't actually read it and don't want to be seen as trying to disingenuously pad my geek cred.
Calm down, I was NOT accusing him of anything. I merely pointed out that a DM could possibly take it the wrong way, which is something I would not want happening if it makes sense that Darkness can and should work that way...
It was sarcasm, guy. See, I was really the one accusing...never mind, never mind. Not important.
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Based on the "what level is the Sun's light" theory.
Sunburst is an 8th level spell (could be considered a solar flare imho)
Sunbeam is a 7th level spell. Pretty self explanatory here.
Failing the save on any of these results in an instant you-turn-to-dust for a vampire.
So ... no. I'd rule that not even Deeper Darkness protects you from the Sun. Protective Penumbra or bust.
Based on the "what level is the Sun's light" theory.
Sunburst is an 8th level spell (could be considered a solar flare imho)
Sunbeam is a 7th level spell. Pretty self explanatory here.
Failing the save on any of these results in an instant you-turn-to-dust for a vampire.
So ... no. I'd rule that not even Deeper Darkness protects you from the Sun. Protective Penumbra or bust.
I'm having trouble following your line of logic.
I am just hitting the FAQ button. I can't find a rules based answer.
Like I said based off the previous example and the fact the its "Direct" sunlight my games its a no until told otherwise.
Like I said based off the previous example and the fact the its "Direct" sunlight my games its a no until told otherwise.
I'm confused. Your previous example explained how it was most definitely yes in 3.5. How can that be the basis for your answer being "no"? Is there a typo somewhere?
stupid Iphone it should have its a go until told otherwise.
stupid Iphone it should have its a go until told otherwise.
Ducking autocorrect.
stupid Iphone it should have its a go until told otherwise.
Thanks for the clarification! You might want to check out http://damnyouautocorrect.com/.
Here's an idea: Have the vampire be subject to an umbral bestow curse spell. Make the curse something trivial like a change of hair color. The metamagic effect, however, will make the vampire emanate a 10-foot radius of darkness for as long as bestow curse lasts.
Since bestow curse is permanent, and can't be dispelled what's more, it's bound to last for a LONG time, protecting the vampire from the sun all the while. :D
Furthermore, no one would see it as anything but a beneficial effect, so they wouldn't think to use curative spells such as remove curse or break enchantment to remove it.
Aren't I devious?
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Targets of your darkness spells radiate darkness.Prerequisite: Tenebrous Spell.
Benefit: An umbral spell gains the darkness descriptor. As long as the spell is in effect, the creature or object affected radiates darkness in a 10-foot radius, reducing illumination similar to the effects of the darkness spell. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches or lanterns, do not increase the light level in this area. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area affected by an umbral spell if they are of a higher level than the umbral spell’s unmodified spell level. This effect does not stack with itself or with any other effect that creates darkness. An umbral spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
As the light level of the area is increased by light spells that are higher level than the umbral spell, you sill have the problem of deciding if the sun light count as a spell and which level of spell.
You are still at the starting square.
Why would the sun count as a spell of any level? Even a 0-level darkness effect overcomes non-magical ambient light (otherwise it wouldn't be a darkness effect).
Why would the sun count as a spell of any level? Even a 0-level darkness effect overcomes non-magical ambient light (otherwise it wouldn't be a darkness effect).
I agree, actual sunlight is not a spell. The question is, does the darkness or deeper darkness spell "filter" the property of actual sunlight which destroys vampires. I haven't found anywhere this question is addressed, which is why I hit the FAQ button.
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Why would the sun count as a spell of any level? Even a 0-level darkness effect overcomes non-magical ambient light (otherwise it wouldn't be a darkness effect).I agree, actual sunlight is not a spell. The question is, does the darkness or deeper darkness spell "filter" the property of actual sunlight which destroys vampires. I haven't found anywhere this question is addressed, which is why I hit the FAQ button.
As a DM I'd say it depends. If everyone seems to be okay with it and it isn't doing to much harm to the challenge rating, why not?
If it does develop into a problem I would have a word with the player. If that doesn't resolve the issue (it will 99% of the time), I'll have the player be screwed over by his false security somehow.
What about a gauzy veil worn over the body? How is that providing any less filtering than a darkness spell? I still contend that this should be answered in an faq, since every argument one way or another is based on assumptions and not RAW.
Does darkness or deeper darkness protect vampires from sunlight? I have a noble drow vampire and a black dragon vampire who want to know.
If you mean the spells, I would say no. The only way for Vampires to be safe from real sunlight is to block it's line of effect from them or for it to be night out, such that no actual sunlight can hit them.
While darkness spells reduse the intensity of the illumination of sunlight, it does not render it inert or not 'sunlight' any more.
Vampires fry in sunlight, wether it is a sunny day, heavy overcast or stormy and rainy. If there is light they do not go near it. Sunlight is 'special' that way.
Direct sunlight is very specific IMHO. I can't prove it as RAI, but I would assume no overcast or anything similar equals direct sunlight. Being fully clothed would not help them though.
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It's ridiculous that a 2nd or 3rd level spell that creates darkness would do less to protect a creature from light than a 1st level spell or cantrip that makes it slightly dimmer around the subject. I say, if a Darkness spell can reduce the light level to, well, darkness, then a vampire is fine within. Because if there's a pitch-black area in the middle of a sunny field, clearly, the sunlight isn't penetrating it. That means Darkness will only protect the vampire in dim lighting--an overcast day, or under canopy cover or the like--while Deeper Darkness works as a protective measure in normal light, and nothing can protect the vampire in bright light.
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Does darkness or deeper darkness protect vampires from sunlight? I have a noble drow vampire and a black dragon vampire who want to know.
Still no answer on the issue? Maybe we need more FAQ pressed.
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Necromancy with the answer!
The Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Night contains a small blurb in the Moroi (standard Pathfinder vampire) section under the "Secrets of the Moroi heading".
Spells like darkness and protective penumbra (see Ultimate Magic) provide temporary respite from the dawn...