I'm new to Pathfinder but it has been a lot of fun so far. I am playing in a small group where the players each have two characters. It is a home brew campaign world which we hope to explore thoroughly during school's winter break. After a few play sessions the party consists of:
Sorcerer
Oracle
Barbarian
Cleric
Paladin
I chose to play the cleric and paladin characters in the hopes that some synergies and teamwork would make them stronger together than seperate. I enjoy playing this duo during non-combat encounters, even if the characters represent two shades of the same color. However, I am already starting to regret some choices I made during character creation as they effect our combat encounters. Could you suggest some tactics or adjustments which unleash the power of the faithful fighting side-by-side?
Both are human characters, with the Shield Wall and Shielded Caster teamwork feats. The feats made one of their early encounters somewhat interesting though a bit overly defensive. After seeing combat drag on and on, the Paladin reached for his two hander and is now looking to flex muscles. This leaves the four initial feats on a shelf and seems to put these characters back at square one.
Both characters have the Military Veteran trait and Profession(soldier) which helps me explain their coordinated movements in combat. What actually seems to happen is they get tied up with one foe, while the sorcerer takes on a couple and the barbarian dispatches a couple each round. I am trying to use them in an offensive role during combat encounters, but they don't seem to be making much of an impact.
I guess I've gimped these characters, but I didn't mean to. I wanted them to be something like a Warhammer 40k Captain and Apothecary team who mow down any who dare challenge them. Instead I feel they are more like the party's water boy and towel boy. What can I do to fix this?
3rd level Paladin
HP: 37
AC: 19
Initiative: +1
BAB: +3
Saving Throws:
Fort: 7
Reflex: 4
Will: 5 (+9 vs Fear)
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Class Skills:
+5 Craft (Weapons)
+6 Diplomacy
+6 Handle Animal
+6 Knowledge (Nobility)
+7 Knowledge (Religion)
+5 Profession (Soldier)
+2 Ride
+4 Sense Motive
+5 Spellcraft
Feats:
Shield Wall (Human)
Shielded Caster
Step Up
Equipment:
Chain Armor + Heavy Shield
Flail
Masterwork Longsword
Greatsword
Light Crossbow
3rd level Cleric
HP: 29
AC: 19
Initiative: +1
BAB: +2
Saving Throws:
Fort: 5
Reflex: 2
Will: 8
STR: 14
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 20
CHA: 12
Class Skills:
+9 Acrobatics* (trait)
+0 Appraise
+0 Craft (Armor)
+2 Diplomacy
+8 Heal
+4 Knowledge (Arcana)
+0 Knowledge (History)
+0 Knowledge (Nobility)
+0 Knowledge (Planes)
+6 Knowledge (Religion)
+0 Linguistics
+5 Profession(Soldier)
+8 Sense Motive
+10 Survival* (trait)
+4 Spellcraft
Feats:
Shield Wall (Human)
Shielded Caster
Extra Channel
Domains:
Sun & Good
Equipment:
Chain Armor + Heavy Shield
Flail
Light Crossbow
Edit: updated pally saves, equipment list, domains
They are tanks. With shields, you definitely won't be dealing as much damage. Your paladin NEEDS Power Attack though. Clerics are healers, but now that he's super tank, gives him an offensive feat or two. Power Attack maybe.
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Hmmm; how much room do you have to fix? Do we have to take it from here?
Off-hand, the cleric should be amazing support, 20 Wis is great. I'd structure him as a summoner, take divine summons and eventually spell focus (conjure) and augment. Meanwhile buff people.
Shield + pally is rough, especially with fear investment. Issue is keeping people locked up. Since you have the int, take expertise and the improved trip line. A pally tank that can trip is hard to handle.
If you can adjust, take the 3 feats above, and ideally make the pally "Oarh of Vengence" style for maximum damage output. If not, start building up; you'll be online... the pally can splash a level or two of fighter to speed things up.
They are tanks. With shields, you definitely won't be dealing as much damage. Your paladin NEEDS Power Attack though. Clerics are healers, but now that he's super tank, gives him an offensive feat or two. Power Attack maybe.
I was about to suggest power attack also. It is required if you want to bring the pain.
Thalin, good question about how much wiggle room for fixing these characters. If I've jeopardized the party's chances with really poor feat choices, I might have some room to adjust. How bad were my choices?
If there were 4 options and I chose the worst of the bunch, then I can probably get a retraining for this duo. If I've chosen a viable option, just not the best option, then I probably won't get to retrain. I'd have to make a case for my characters, considering the needs of the party.
The Oracle is the primary healer, but its been nice having the Cleric and Paladin able to keep themselves going. The Sorcerer and Barbarian cutting through enemy ranks overshadows anything my characters accomplish on the battlefield.
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3rd level Paladin
Ability Scores : Good : I'm from the Str works on every thing. Cha base paladins are not all that good over all. There is a thread for this debate some where. Over all Str wins in experience with the game.
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Class Skills: Focus you get 4 skill ranks per level pick 4 skill and max them out. My top suggestions Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and + 2 other.
Feats: This is where you are running in to your problems.
Shield Wall (Human)
Shielded Caster
Step Up
Replacing them with.
Swap Places : This is more effective then Shield Wall and Shielded Caster combined. This is speaking from game play experience with these feats.
Power attack : Replaces the other.
Step Up : Is not a bad choice. I might trade it out for Combat Expertise. To get improved trip at level 5.
A combat focused Cleric with a pole arm to fight behind the paladin might be more what your looking for. And is a very difrent build then this.
3rd level Cleric
Ability Scores : If your making a support caster good. If your going for a battle Clerc very bad.
STR: 14
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 20
CHA: 12
Class Skills: See Paladin. Focus
Feats: Bad feat selection for a support caster or battle cleric.
Shield Wall (Human) : See paladin
Shielded Caster
Extra Channel : This is a trap of sorts. Channeling lose it's effectives around level 5 because of scaling. It is really good at low level. And a wast at higher level.
Suggestions for a support caster.
Swap Places
Combat Casting
Disruptive Spell
Domains: This are domains I tend to rate as low for there effectiveness. Not sure what other domains you have access to.
Sun & Good
I prefer escape route over shielded caster.
Off-hand, the cleric should be amazing support, 20 Wis is great. I'd structure him as a summoner, take divine summons and eventually spell focus (conjure) and augment. Meanwhile buff people.
What is divine summons?
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Experience has tough me that a divine caster with a pole arm has time to cast a buffing spell if needed. Over all Oracle of battle works better for that type of build. Cleric as a support caster should not be in melee combat and should plan on a easy way to remove them from combat. That is why I recommended swap places so if they do close with the cleric it is much essayer to get out of combat by trading places with the paladin with out needing allot of movement to do it.
Over all I have found cleric/oracle combat focused characters. Can work very well. There are two things you need to remember when making them. You will never do as much damage as a full BAB class. Two you still have to cast spells. This is one of the reason oracle of battle do very well in this type of build. With war sight they can act in the surprise round. That will give them the ability to cast there one buff spell per encounter almost every time.
And Soft cover only works for range attacks. They get the partial cover for using pole arm.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide
you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4
bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus
on Ref lex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a
Stealth check.
Partial Cover: If a creature has cover, but more than half
the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to
AC and a +1 bonus on Ref lex saving throws. This partial
cover is subject to the GM’s discretion.
Sounds like you were trying to make a pair of tanks (which can be kool) tanks don't kill alot, they get in the way for others to kill alot. But the rest of the group doesn't want to work with tanks.
Clerics need a lot of feats to make them front line worthy. Or a bunch of prep time before combat which you don't always have.
Here's my suggestions.
1) ditch the Pali's sheild and go with a 2 handed weapon with power atk.
2) Use the Cleric as a buffer for the Paladin, NOT as a front line fighter. With constant Cleric buffs and healing the Paladin will quickly dominate the front line. Especially when fighting evil enemies.
3) choose a weapon or combat style for the cleric that her can either used at reach/range when he doesn't have to buff.
4) Up your Clerics CHA. It is very important for channeling and there are many great feats that you can take to make channeling more versatile and potent.
Overall I see a lack of actual offensive combat feats in the builds which will be key for your Pali.
Here's a fun little trick you can do with the two. When fighting a big baddy that has minions, have the Cleric cast sanctuary on the Paladin. The Pali can then calmly walk through the minions(which typically have low will saves) and attack the big baddy directly.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks
vis a vie, -4 to attacks with a reach weapon through an ally.
I'm pretty sure that those rules are for full cover. An ally between you and the target for reach weapons counts as partial or soft cover which means your opponent receives a +2AC, not a +4.
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The Sorcerer and Barbarian cutting through enemy ranks overshadows anything my characters accomplish on the battlefield.
That's their role. Sorcerers and Barbarians usually have a high damage output. Its what they are good at. They do have their weakness, Sorcerers like all d6 classes, can easily find them self with little hp. Barbarians have low will saves, and its not a good day, when the Barbarian gets mind-controlled after losing a will save.
Paladin - Melee class that have a high saves and healing abilities. That's their staying power in the battlefield.
Clerics - Your domains selection suggest you are building a support cleric, which leads to the question of why you have 14 str, but only 12 cha? Are you playing a dwarf? (Only reason I can think off for having so low cha.
Clerics have access to higher level spells earlier then the Oracle. Keep a slot or 2 open for spells like Lesser Restoration, spells that the Oracle can't perform yet.
My suggestion (assuming you can't change your stats) is to maybe pick up summoning. Just prepare some summoning spells and let them loose into the enemy lines. They do take 1 round to cast so just be careful. That said, 1-3 riding dogs is nothing to sneeze at. They can also help provide flank for your Paladin and Barbarian.
In any case, you need to remember that the classes you are playing are more defensive in nature. Its not that they can't deal a lot of damage, but to do so, you need to plan that out from the start.
These are some really good suggestions. I wish I had a better grasp of these options from the start.
Divine summons = sacred summons. At 5 you can toss out lantern archons as a standard action, which are amazing little helpers / damage deals. At 7, d3 archons, at 9 d4+1 with more hp. They radiate a low-DC or be -2 to everything; and their attacks bypass all dr. AE buffs make them even better :).
The divine summoner who calls in reinforcements is very interesting. Are there a variety of aligned creatures which can be summoned or are Archons the primary choice?
Are there any other feats to round out that type of character or are spells the main focus beyond the three feats you mentioned?I'll be asking to 'retrain' these characters soon, but I will try to stay with feats which fit within the context of their previous actions. For example, I'll pick up Power Attack for my paladin at the next available level, but I would ask for Swap Place, Combat Expertise and something else now. These feats could have explained some of their success and style so far.
The clerics ability to channel energy is something I don't fully understand. We have been using it as an out of combat heal mostly. What options are there to improve its utility in combat?
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STR pallies win DPR smash-face contests in hack-n-slash games where nobody ever has to make a saving-throw or a skill-check; CHA pallies win everything else.3rd level Paladin
Ability Scores : Good : I'm from the Str works on every thing. Cha base paladins are not all that good over all. There is a thread for this debate some where. Over all Str wins in experience with the game.
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Looks like a typical heavy-armor slow-moving spam-can slug paladin. (25pt-buy, I presume?)
Halfling multi-class could have been fun here....
STR-13 ...25pt halfling
DEX+19 (bump 4th)
CON:12
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16 (bump 8th, etc)
01 figh1 [Dragoon][Mounted Combat][Skill Focus:Ride], Weapon Finesse
02 paladin ...maybe a few levels of ninja if cheese is your thing.
Uses an elven curve blade.
STR: 14
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 20
CHA: 12
Check out the feat Guided Hand from UC. Make him an archer-cleric with the Crusader archetype. One level of cavalier[gendarme][order of the dragon] if you want to multiclass (recommended if your taking heavy armor prof).
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I'll be asking to 'retrain' these characters soon, but I will try to stay with feats which fit within the context of their previous actions. For example, I'll pick up Power Attack for my paladin at the next available level, but I would ask for Swap Place, Combat Expertise and something else now. These feats could have explained some of their success and style so far.
You might take exotic weapon falcata or katana. (IMO)Katana has to much of a Asian them for this type of character. If your going to stay with the weapon and shield. The falcata or katana because of the crit profile are the best one handed weapon you can get for damage. The other thing you might look at is the open feet you have can be a 3rd level. So taking extra mercy is a good idea. The other thing you could start with is Improved (Trip, or Disarm). You will not qualify for (Fearless Aura) until level 11. It might be something to look at for the character later.
The clerics ability to channel energy is something I don't fully understand. We have been using it as an out of combat heal mostly. What options are there to improve its utility in combat?
There is not a really good way to improve its utility in combat. At low levels it's better but because it dose not scale with damage well. The in combat usage is limited. There are feet's that will help it. Selective Channel and some others. (IMO) This is a very sub optimal route to take. And can use up feet's that give little in return.