How was the Wealth by Level chart constructed?

[TOZ]

Cheapy's doing what to a minor? O.o

[Khrysaor]

I'm not getting worked up at all. I'm clearly pointing out that comments belittling everyone else aren't constructive.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Khrysaor wrote:

I'm not getting worked up at all. I'm clearly pointing out that comments belittling everyone else aren't constructive.

Fair enough. As long as it's not extreme, I generally don't even worry about it. There are real trolls around and I don't think Cheapy is one.

[Khrysaor]

All I said to him was there were others that don't agree with him and that's why there's an ongoing argument. His response was;

Cheapy wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Too bad there's a whole barn full of animals that don't agree and so this will continue until the Gods up high tell us how it is. Comments like this are also counter productive.

My apologies. I'll let everyone get back to repeating the same damn things that have been said a billion times before in all the countless other threads about this topic.

To which I replied condescension doesn't aid an argument and if he doesn't agree with what people say and doesn't have anything constructive to add he could choose to refrain from saying anything instead of belittling others and appearing condescending.

I don't need you to inform me on your opinions of others on the thread. I don't think Cheapy is a troll either as I've used his advice from other threads, but this comment betrays that thought.

Anyways. This entire conversation is redundant and holds no sway to the main argument. That's why I try to avoid these traps.

[Maxximilius]

Khrysaor wrote:

The idea Buri is getting at is, in any case, the crafter has access to crafting materials which go against his WBL. These crafting materials can be used to double their value when turned into an item. Why does the item go against WBL and not the materials if you can craft?

Players are assumed to gain wealth by selling items at half value, thus gaining half the value of items found (pieces treasures typically should be a rarity and made mostly of valuable items), and crafting for half the value of items created, thus keeping the balance.

The crafted item costs it's full price in the WBL as an indicator for the DM. The same way, you don't create a level 12 character by assuming he crafted his equipment, and thus "totally should have a WBL equivalent to a character five levels higher, man !". Saying it again : being able to craft what you need when you need, depending on the campaign's restrictions, is already worth spending the feats. This isn't a "break everyone's equipment + free money" cheat code button.

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

The idea Buri is getting at is, in any case, the crafter has access to crafting materials which go against his WBL. These crafting materials can be used to double their value when turned into an item. Why does the item go against WBL and not the materials if you can craft?

Players are assumed to gain wealth by selling items at half value, thus gaining half the value of items found (pieces treasures typically should be a rarity and made mostly of valuable items), and crafting for half the value of items created, thus keeping the balance.

Most of us haven't assumed you gain wealth from selling items for half then crafting. That is a misinterpretation and been covered when someone else argued the same thing. Most of us have said that items are not the only items you find as gold does come in its coin form. Most of us have said that when there's an abundance of items that players don't need it is sold and split evenly amongst the party which gives the crafter the same value in gold coins as everyone else that he turns into an item of double the gold value.

Maxximilius wrote:

The crafted item costs it's full price in the WBL as an indicator for the DM. The same way, you don't create a level 12 character by assuming he crafted his equipment, and thus "totally should have a WBL equivalent to a character five levels higher, man !". Saying it again : being able to craft what you need when you need, depending on the campaign's restrictions, is already worth spending the feats. This isn't a "break everyone's equipment + free money" cheat code button.

No you create a level 12 character assuming that he's been using his feats as he's progressed in levels. He had a past and this isn't day 1 of his adventuring career. If craft wondrous items was taken at level 3, you'd think he would have used that feat quite a few times as he adventured up to level 12. If crafting can make a net profit, then over the 9 levels that he's crafted, how is this represented if he is restricted to the WBL of every non-crafter. I get that this is a balance issue and the GM must control it, but the feat mechancis allow for wealth to be gained. I've already listed examples on how this happens. If you don't believe me it's on one of these pages or you can sift the 8 page argument that was the 'Scribe Scrolls with starting wealth' thread.

EDIT: I'm not arguing that being able to make any item you want when you want isn't a good benefit to the feats and really it should be the only benefit. Feat mechanics, though, show that there is other benefits to the feat that affect wealth. If crafting remains at 2:1 it is broken and gives characters more wealth. If it goes to 1:1 it provides the benefits we're both saying should be the benefit of them.

[Maxximilius]

Sure, the guy has been crafting his things, and heck, does he have exactly what he needs !

He still gets the normal WBL.

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

Sure, the guy has been crafting his things, and heck, does he have exactly what he needs !

He still gets the normal WBL.

Sure, the guy hasn't been crafting his things, and heck, does he have exactly what he needs!

He still gets the normal WBL.

Where is the advantage to the crafter over the non crafter? Oh that's right... The non crafter didn't waste a feat on crafting.

EDIT: Unless you plan to tell non crafters they don't have everything they want and they have to accept that they are carrying ten +1 long swords, or items that are useful but they don't necessarily want, that attribute to their WBL, you've leveled the playing field for wealth and penalized the crafter by not giving him item selection and the wealth that comes with it.

[Maxximilius]

Yeah, starting gold is soooo important... because after all, it's a well-known fact that in Pathfinder, you change characters every level ! How would someone have shiny things and buy costly items otherwise ?

We always let the crafters get to buy something a little more costly at first, like half price potion stock for an alchemist or some percentage of GP more for a fighter with ranks in Craft. But, the game, and thus the DM, naturally balances it out later, usually on the following level equivalent. Being able to craft what you need is good enough without having to almost double your wealth as your starting feat.

[Bob_Loblaw]

It's not really a penalty. No matter how much you try to say it is, it really isn't. The character has a history. He made his own stuff. The GM kept the wealth roughly equal as the game progressed, just as if the character had been played since 1st level.

Do you let someone with Diplomacy determine how many contacts he has? He would have used Diplomacy to create contacts. Do you let someone with Leadership take the wealth of his followers? He could, especially if he is an evil character. Do you let someone with a high enough Intelligence, at 1st level, but zero ranks in craft skills make gear before the game starts? He could have. Do you let someone with ranks in Linguistics, Disguise, and Perfom (acting) to have multiple aliases including those with access to large amounts of resources?

There is no penalty for sticking close to WBL. The game is designed to be relatively balanced. It's certainly not perfect but I would think that this is meant to help keep things close to balanced instead of allowing powerful characters to gain more power.

[Buri]

Maxximilius wrote:

Sure, the guy has been crafting his things, and heck, does he have exactly what he needs !

He still gets the normal WBL.

Show me where WBL is a limit on the summation of the total market value of your gear rather than a pile of gp handed to your character.

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

Yeah, starting gold is soooo important... because after all, it's a well-known fact that in Pathfinder, you change characters every level ! How would someone have shiny things and buy costly items otherwise ?

You're the one that was arguing on character creation for your point. I merely showed you how, at character creation, limiting everyone to WBL penalizes the crafter by letting everyone have what they want.

Maxximilius wrote:

We always let the crafters get to buy something a little more costly at first, like half price potion stock for an alchemist or some percentage of GP more for a fighter with ranks in Craft. But, the game, and thus the DM, naturally balances it out later, usually on the following level equivalent. Being able to craft what you need is good enough without having to almost double your wealth as your starting feat.

The game will never balance this out as it's a game mechanic that allows for crafters to achieve higher wealth than a standard player. The only thing that will balance this, is a GM that attributes more wealth to the rest of the party, or a player that knows this can get out of hand and accepts to keep things somewhat balanced.

I have already agreed with you that crafting what you want is a good benefit and is all crafting feats should be. Until the developers change craft feats to make crafters craft at the full base value of an item, the mechanics will create variation.

[TOZ]

Buri wrote:

Show me where WBL is a limit on the summation of the total market value of your gear rather than a pile of gp handed to your character.

Quote:

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.

Quote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level.

[Maxximilius]

Buri wrote:

Maxximilius wrote:

Sure, the guy has been crafting his things, and heck, does he have exactly what he needs !

He still gets the normal WBL.

Show me where WBL is a limit on the summation of the total market value of your gear rather than a pile of gp handed to your character.

If you'd come into the game with a trolley full of GP, as co-DM I would tell you to open a bank and come back with the sheet of a serious character if you haven't a background rolemine rolling up with you.

Or maybe you're hoping you will actually have the time and ressources necessary to spend all this marvelous gold afterhand, which is both intelligent of you, an insult to my/the DM's intelligence concerning game balance, and just a naive thing to do in itself.

[Maxximilius]

Khrysaor wrote:

The game will never balance this out as it's a game mechanic that allows for crafters to achieve higher wealth than a standard player.

Except for the part where you're supposed to sell half-price your items ; unless your DM is the kind to give out litteral tons of GP, or you never spend them out on items, instead choosing to bath in your gold.

[Buri]

Yet, WBL is a gp amount, not a value representation of your gear, character gain when they start play. It says so in the equipment section in black and white. That is why characters pocket what's left. What I'm gathering here is that itd be fine if I held back enough gp to purchase the materials and spend the time crafting once game play started.

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

It's not really a penalty. No matter how much you try to say it is, it really isn't. The character has a history. He made his own stuff. The GM kept the wealth roughly equal as the game progressed, just as if the character had been played since 1st level.

dictionary.com wrote:

pen·al·ty   [pen-l-tee] Show IPA

noun, plural -ties.
1.a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2.a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3.something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4.a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5.consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

Please pick one.

As per my examples earlier;

Everyone has equal WBL when the craft feats allow a character to generate increased wealth.

At character creation, everyone has equal WBL and can choose any item they want which is the benefit of a crafting feat.

You can continue thinking that this isn't penalizing someone but when you remove a factor that comes along with a feat that is forfeiting a portion of that feat. According to dictionary.com that is a penalty.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Do you let someone with Diplomacy determine how many contacts he has? He would have used Diplomacy to create contacts. Do you let someone with Leadership take the wealth of his followers? He could, especially if he is an evil character. Do you let someone with a high enough Intelligence, at 1st level, but zero ranks in craft skills make gear before the game starts? He could have. Do you let someone with ranks in Linguistics, Disguise, and Perfom (acting) to have multiple aliases including those with access to large amounts of resources?

This is all a part of a characters history and there is nothing in the RAW to tell you he couldn't have done any of this except the resources attached to the alias which would fall under the same characters wealth. The comments on 1st level crafting were already dealt with by assuming level 1 first campaign is day 1 but a GM could give in if he felt it didn't unbalance things. You're grasping at straws.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

There is no penalty for sticking close to WBL. The game is designed to be relatively balanced. It's certainly not perfect but I would think that this is meant to help keep things close to balanced instead of allowing powerful characters to gain more power.

You've obviously forgotten the argument being the value of a craft feat and what that entails. You've already admitted that craft feats can make a character money, it's just that the GM has to determine where the line has to be drawn. It was just that mine were drawn in sand as you said earlier.

The entire time I've argued, it has been me saying that you shouldn't let a player get away with this to a point that it unbalances your game. It's been me pointing out the game mechanics and the rules supporting this. Think what you want for your own games as you all already do but don't tell me the game mechanics don't allow for this when it's clearly written.

[Khrysaor]

And since some people are choosing to complain about the long posts you can feel free to read through the 8 pages of this again that you were a part of already. All the answers you need are in there. Use them or don't, the power is yours.

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

The game will never balance this out as it's a game mechanic that allows for crafters to achieve higher wealth than a standard player.

Except for the part where you're supposed to sell half-price your items ; unless your DM is the kind to give out litteral tons of GP, or you never spend them out on items, instead choosing to bath in your gold.

Have you never found gold as a treasure? Have you never split gold from items that were useless to the party so they were sold and the gold distributed? I'm sorry that your GM's think the only treasure in Pathfinder is more magical items. Myself and the GM's I play with tend to drop gold with the items. Or trade goods that sell for their full price as per the CRB. Whenever a crafter gets gold that isn't from directly selling his items, he will turn a profit in terms of wealth. This is a mechanic. It cannot change until the

PFSRD wrote:

Raw Materials Cost: The cost of creating a magic item equals half the base price of the item.

clause is removed from item creation feats.

[Khrysaor]

TOZ wrote:

Buri wrote:

Show me where WBL is a limit on the summation of the total market value of your gear rather than a pile of gp handed to your character.

Quote:

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.

Quote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level.

Bolds are mine.

It was already determined that this is a soft cap and a guideline, not a hard cap and a rule. Also, when words like assumes, roughly, and expected are thrown into context they create room for variables. Without specific numbers to control variables they are governed by the GM to maintain balance in a campaign.

[Bob_Loblaw]

I'm going to preface this with: I hate my f-ing phone so much. It's the worst POS I've dealt with and I used to use weapons/equipment made by the lowest bidder. I'm stuck using my phone for internet access for a while. I would rather have a full frontal lobotamy done through the rectum than use the phone much longer. If I come across as frustrated, it has nothing to do with anyone here. My phone is close to becoming a frisbee.

Now to the topic at hand. There is no penalty because this doesn't fit the definition. Unless you are going to say that an elf that tills the soil for 300 years is also penalized for not being able to cash in on Profession (farmer).

Some of the words they use are meant to be used as synonyms. Wealth, gold, treasure, etc, are not meant to be used as if they are legal terms that an attorney seeks to exploit. They are meant to make the reading seem less like stereo instructions and more like a role playing game.

Think about this. You are saying that the way the rules are written, the GM must step in to prevent abuse. We are saying that the way the rules are written, abuse can only occur if the GM ignores the rules. One of these makes more sense than the other.

[Irontruth]

Buri wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

post

The thing with WBL is that its a gp amount given to characters of a certain level rather than a summation limit for the total market value for their gear. Look at the equipment section in the CRB. It states characters begin play with a certain amount of gp then goes on to reference the WBL chart for characters passed level 1. Crafting says all I need to craft an item is to pay one-third the cost, or one-half, in order to make an item. Mathematics says I then have my total WBL gp minus the cost of crafting materials left. Nothing states the total value of the item is deducted from WBL. All this is contingent upon GM approval. Which, if approved, should be throttled. However, per RAW it is also possible for me to pocket any remaining gold and to then do any crafting at the beginning of the first session. The end result is the same. However, allowing a character to come to the table with these items crafted is a way to not take that character away from the party and to get the show started.

I like how you reduced my post to a single word (which I didn't use, so I'm not sure why you quoted me), then proceeded to restate your position without adding any new information. You also did not address any of the points that I have made.

A magic item has a value. Notice I said value, not cost. Cost is what you pay, value is what it's worth. I say that all magic items have the same value, regardless of who owns them or how they got them. A Holy Avenger always counts for 120,630 of your WBL. Period, end of story. Nothing you have said has convinced me that it should be counted for less.

[gnomersy]

Irontruth wrote:

I like how you reduced my post to a single word (which I didn't use, so I'm not sure why you quoted me), then proceeded to restate your position without adding any new information. You also did not address any of the points that I have made.

A magic item has a value. Notice I said value, not cost. Cost is what you pay, value is what it's worth. I say that all magic items have the same value, regardless of who owns them or how they got them. A Holy Avenger always counts for 120,630 of your WBL. Period, end of story. Nothing you have said has convinced me that it should be counted for less.

The point isn't that it should be counted for less it's that the WBL chart doesn't include the use of the crafting feats and accounts for selling the goods for half value to trade for custom gear bought at full cost.

The crafting feats therefore must allow you to exceed WBL in a game which is played up to that point, and therefore in fairness should be accounted for by the DM in a game where you create a character of that level from scratch.

[Buri]

Irontruth wrote:

I like how you reduced my post to a single word (which I didn't use, so I'm not sure why you quoted me), then proceeded to restate your position without adding any new information. You also did not address any of the points that I have made.

A magic item has a value. Notice I said value, not cost. Cost is what you pay, value is what it's worth. I say that all magic items have the same value, regardless of who owns them or how they got them. A Holy Avenger always counts for 120,630 of your WBL. Period, end of story. Nothing you have said has convinced me that it should be counted for less.

A Holy Avenger only costs half that if it were crafted by a character rather than purchased. As I said, WBL is a gp amount, not a value representation. Your stance is flawed and based on an assumption improvable.

[Irontruth]

gnomersy wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

I like how you reduced my post to a single word (which I didn't use, so I'm not sure why you quoted me), then proceeded to restate your position without adding any new information. You also did not address any of the points that I have made.

A magic item has a value. Notice I said value, not cost. Cost is what you pay, value is what it's worth. I say that all magic items have the same value, regardless of who owns them or how they got them. A Holy Avenger always counts for 120,630 of your WBL. Period, end of story. Nothing you have said has convinced me that it should be counted for less.

The point isn't that it should be counted for less it's that the WBL chart doesn't include the use of the crafting feats and accounts for selling the goods for half value to trade for custom gear bought at full cost.

The crafting feats therefore must allow you to exceed WBL in a game which is played up to that point, and therefore in fairness should be accounted for by the DM in a game where you create a character of that level from scratch.

No, people have expressed their opinion that it should, not that it must be so.

If I sell you a house in a state that has property taxes, the state is going to asses the value of the house for tax purposes, they don't care how much you paid me for it. If the house is worth $100,000, but I sell it to you for $1, the state is going to tax you for the $100,000 value, not $1. That is how I see WBL. We aren't measuring your character's business acumen, we are measuring you're character's power via magic items.

I presented the reverse scenario, the Lich from the Bestiary has CWI. Do you think he should be given more magic items? Do you think that should/would affect his CR? How would his CR be affected if we removed all his magic items?

I've also tried getting people to examine the concept of a feat that purely improves WBL, no pre-requisites, and how much that should affect WBL, but instead they are focused on how crafting works instead of looking at the effect they are talking about. People are focusing on how there may or may not be loopholes in the game, when instead we could be talking about how the rules actually do interact with each other (does WBL affect character effectiveness and if so, how much).

[TOZ]

Buri wrote:

A Holy Avenger only costs half that if it were crafted by a character rather than purchased. As I said, WBL is a gp amount, not a value representation. Your stance is flawed and based on an assumption improvable.

Please explain how you reconcile that with the following quote.

Quote:

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.

Now, how do you determine the amount of treasure and magic items a character has?

Or, more to the point, are two characters, one with a Holy Avenger, and the other with a Holy Avenger and 56000 GP, roughly equal in their treasure and magic items?

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Now to the topic at hand. There is no penalty because this doesn't fit the definition. Unless you are going to say that an elf that tills the soil for 300 years is also penalized for not being able to cash in on Profession (farmer).

Well now you have a level 1 commoner (farmer) who has to roll 300*52 profession checks to see how much money he's earned as a farmer. He's never adventured because farming was his full time profession and will have far more wealth than a level 1 should have.

What you don't grasp about the other skills is that they are available only while in towns or with an audience. Profession skills are based off of a full work week. Performance skills are based off of having an audience to throw coins at you when you do well. Crafting can be done independantly of anyone else and while adventuring.

This does fit the definition. In fact it fit 3 of the 5 descriptions given.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Some of the words they use are meant to be used as synonyms. Wealth, gold, treasure, etc, are not meant to be used as if they are legal terms that an attorney seeks to exploit. They are meant to make the reading seem less like stereo instructions and more like a role playing game.

Wealth, gold, and treasure were never synonymous and were never put that way in the book. Wealth is the combined value of your gear and your gold. Gold is the coins you have. Treasure is magic items, mundane gear, and trade items. This is listed in the wealth section that starts with Wealth and Gold, followed by a few others and Treasure.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Think about this. You are saying that the way the rules are written, the GM must step in to prevent abuse. We are saying that the way the rules are written, abuse can only occur if the GM ignores the rules. One of these makes more sense than the other.

Your line is wrong in that 'We are saying that the way the rules are written, abuse can only occur if the GM ignores the guidelines. WBL is not a rule, it is a guideline to help a GM gauge a party for encounters.

We can quote til we're blue in the face but if you don't quote rules it will not trump the rules and mechanics.

[Maxximilius]

B~@@~es don't know 'bout my crafting feats.

Fighter, forget Weapon Focus ! Buy yourself a Crafting Feat (Tm) today, and get right now a +2 Strength belt at half the price, for a +1 to attack and damage with all weapons ! The cosmos will shape itself so you can then have everything you want, considered as half the retail price* !

Fighter, don't make the mistake to go adventuring without your Crafting Feat (Tm).

Crafting Feat (Tm) : doubling WBL of munchkins since 1895.

*Not a contractual statement. You may not be allowed to come with your Holy Avenger/+6 Belt of Physical Perfection in a group where the wealthiest has a +3 sword and +4 Strength belt unharmed. Any group allowing you this use will not last long or is a vicious trap. Be prepared.

Warning : You may be insulted and beaten up by angry DMs not liking obviously silly things. Arguing to use this feat this way may provoke a "find a new group stupid enough to stand and look while you are pwnin' everyone with your compensative sword" medical crisis.

[Khrysaor]

Irontruth wrote:

gnomersy wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

I like how you reduced my post to a single word (which I didn't use, so I'm not sure why you quoted me), then proceeded to restate your position without adding any new information. You also did not address any of the points that I have made.

A magic item has a value. Notice I said value, not cost. Cost is what you pay, value is what it's worth. I say that all magic items have the same value, regardless of who owns them or how they got them. A Holy Avenger always counts for 120,630 of your WBL. Period, end of story. Nothing you have said has convinced me that it should be counted for less.

The point isn't that it should be counted for less it's that the WBL chart doesn't include the use of the crafting feats and accounts for selling the goods for half value to trade for custom gear bought at full cost.

The crafting feats therefore must allow you to exceed WBL in a game which is played up to that point, and therefore in fairness should be accounted for by the DM in a game where you create a character of that level from scratch.

No, people have expressed their opinion that it should, not that it must be so.

I've given examples that support the rules. You've given assumptions that support a guideline.

Irontruth wrote:

If I sell you a house in a state that has property taxes, the state is going to asses the value of the house for tax purposes, they don't care how much you paid me for it. If the house is worth $100,000, but I sell it to you for $1, the state is going to tax you for the $100,000 value, not $1. That is how I see WBL. We aren't measuring your character's business acumen, we are measuring you're character's power via magic items.

WBL isn't the value of a single asset. It's the summation of your gold and treasure as you put yourself. This is subjective to the character, their feats, and the life they lived. Two 30 year old males, one of which attended the finest Ivy League schools and the other was a high school drop out will have drastically different amounts of wealth. Pathfinder assumes we are all equal but in this assumption it doesn't account for how we've all spent our money. Maybe my character is fat and addicted to sweets and wasted a lot of money at a bakery where another grows his own food and doesn't spend anything on food or even sells food in a market and turns a profit giving him an even bigger pool of wealth than the fat guy. This is why we all get to make our own back stories to design a character how we see them. It's up to the GM to determine if this back story is plausible and if a player is being a munchkin.

You guys all treat WBL as though it's objective and disregard any subjective material. You're doing it wrong.

Irontruth wrote:

I presented the reverse scenario, the Lich from the Bestiary has CWI. Do you think he should be given more magic items? Do you think that should/would affect his CR? How would his CR be affected if we removed all his magic items?

The lich has those abilities and can use them. He's undead and has infinite time to do so until the heroes come along and relieve him of this. Then again the lich isn't an adventurer that gains extra wealth to use on crafting. The lich doesn't have access to purchasing magic items or crafting materials. Sure he can cast alter self and go to town and buy them. But then he's far from his domain where he would feel safest. Knowing his phylactory isn't going to be found.

Irontruth wrote:

I've also tried getting people to examine the concept of a feat that purely improves WBL, no pre-requisites, and how much that should affect WBL, but instead they are...

This thread is about WBL and how crafting affects it.

[Bob_Loblaw]

The biggest problems here are with misuing the word "guideline" and assuming that because you don't get your way you're penalized.

The guideline is actually meant to be followed closely. That's what a guideline is. It really isn't an arbitrary set of numbers with no meaning. Jason Buhlman spent a bit of time talking to Monte Cook about this (Cook says so in the introduction of the CRB). Buhlman made sure that his adjustments were based on this information as well as the new adjustments he made on the treasure per encounter table. It's almost like he took the time to ensure everyone has the same resources so one character wouldn't automatically outshine another based on his pocketbook.

You also are not penalized because there isn't anything that says you should get more bang for you buck because you are a crafter. In fact, the WBL says the exact opposite. No matter how much anyone wants to deny this, it is very clear.

The only fair and reasonable way to determine wealth is to look at Market Value. The game uses three values for crafting: market value, base cost, and cost to create. The only one of those that matters for WBL is market value because it remains the same for everyone. Base cost is used to determine the cost to create. The cost to create only looks at the magic portion, completely ignoring the cost to craft the item from scratch.

If the WBL wasn't meant to be used (and that is what people imply when they say "guideline" like it has no meaning) then it would be a waste of space in the book. That's several pages that could have been used for something else.

Let me ask this: as a GM, do you adjust the gear for NPCs that can craft?

As for the profession argument I made, the elf can adventure for 5 levels, the go back to farming, then adventure some more. He doesn't have to make all those rolls you implied. He can just Take 10. So why not allow him to start with more money? If you don't, then you are penalizing a longer lived race.

[TOZ]

The WBL is a guideline, not a rule. It's not meant to be followed religiously. It is merely a tool in judging the CR of your party. If the DM determines a character is over WBL, he can correct it via treasure or more difficult encounters. He can even start the campaign with a higher WBL if he chooses.

[Maxximilius]

I'll totally play a noble born in royal family of the wealthiest city in the world. Then, leadership feat with the best craftsman of the kingdom as my follower.

Please, DM, may I start with 20% more wealth, the books says I could because it's mah rohleuplai ? Please, DM, may I then double my 120% WBL to 240%, the books are only a guideline and I totally can do it since it's only a GP value (also the game says I can come right like this, but if you don't like it, it should be cool to have some months waiting at the beginning of the game so I can craft when my character comes) ? It's mah rohleuplai, I shall be rewarded for it !

Why u say no, DM ?

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

B!~&&es don't know 'bout my crafting feats.

Fighter, forget Weapon Focus ! Buy yourself a Crafting Feat (Tm) today, and get right now a +2 Strength belt at half the price, for a +1 to attack and damage with all weapons ! The cosmos will shape itself so you can then have everything you want, considered as half the retail price* !

Fighter, don't make the mistake to go adventuring without your Crafting Feat (Tm).

Crafting Feat (Tm) : doubling WBL of munchkins since 1895.

*Not a contractual statement. You may not be allowed to come with your Holy Avenger/+6 Belt of Physical Perfection in a group where the wealthiest has a +3 sword and +4 Strength belt unharmed. Any group allowing you this use will not last long or is a vicious trap. Be prepared.

Warning : You may be insulted and beaten up by angry DMs not liking obviously silly things. Arguing to use this feat this way may provoke a "find a new group stupid enough to stand and look while you are pwnin' everyone with your compensative sword" medical crisis.

Equally...

Fighter, get weapon focus because you have more feats than anyone can possibly have, also grab yourself master craftsman and craft wondrous items so for the low low price of 2000gp you can make yourself a belt of giant strength +2 for a +1 to attack and damage with all weapons ! The cosmos will shape itself so you can then have everything you want, considered as half the retail price* !

Craft Wondrous Items: Craft any wondrous item for half the cost that anyone will pay for these trinkets.

Just because simple math is a problem for you and you don't see how, as the feats and crafting are worded, that you will gain wealth from them isn't our problem. None of us are asking you to let munchkins be munchkins. I've already argued that you shouldn't. I've only said that as per RAW it is possible and players are justified in thinking this is ok.

[Maxximilius]

Khrysaor wrote:

I've already argued that you shouldn't. I've only said that as per RAW it is possible and players are justified in thinking this is ok.

We're totally in accordance about this point. How it is written doesn't follow how it should clearly be played ; and I had the opportunity to see how quick crafting could ridiculously break any game if used the Lawful Stupid way - since then, we don't have any more problems like this thanks to having some more neurons growing from 13-year old to 22. My snarky remarks weren't aimed at you, so I'm sorry if you felt like it.

[Fergie]

gnomersy wrote:

The point isn't that it should be counted for less it's that the WBL chart doesn't include the use of the crafting feats and accounts for selling the goods for half value to trade for custom gear bought at full cost.

I think you are failing to give the designers enough credit. Just because the text says, "It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased. " does not mean that crafting is outside the system. Crafting is just one of many possible uses of a characters (or parties) time and money that may or may not be more profitable then other uses.

You could also make a good argument that your aberrant sorceress with maxed out ranks in profession (prostitute) could also exceed WBL, and thus should start the game with more GP.

gnomersy wrote:

The crafting feats therefore must allow you to exceed WBL in a game which is played up to that point, and therefore in fairness should be accounted for by the DM in a game where you create a character of that level from scratch.

The other major flaw in this line of reasoning is the assumption that only the crafter benefits from the feat. Almost all skills and feats in the game are assumed to be used in helping the party achieve it's goals. The default Pathfinder game is not PvP nor is it a solo adventure. Experience and treasure are assumed to be divided equally between party members. Only the most selfish characters use their abilities solely for their own advantage.

The entire party is assumed to be taking a break from serious adventure while the crafter is doing his thing. The party makes a sacrifice in exchange for a benefit that should affect the group. While one group is spending a few weeks crafting, the other could be generating loot in other ways - like adventuring. There is no reason one group should be assumed to generate more wealth then another.

Note: While it may be true that prostitutes in Pathfinder are incapable of earning more then about 30gp a week, through use of the profession, the point is still valid.

[Bob_Loblaw]

TOZ wrote:

The WBL is a guideline, not a rule. It's not meant to be followed religiously. It is merely a tool in judging the CR of your party. If the DM determines a character is over WBL, he can correct it via treasure or more difficult encounters. He can even start the campaign with a higher WBL if he chooses.

it can't be as precise as other numbers in the game because of what it represents. It is meant to be fluid. At the same time, it is meant to help GMs gauge power through assets.

Whenever someone says "it's just a guideline" they are implying that it can be ignored because it has little meaning. Every poster who throws "it's just a guideline" has meant that. They almost always throw in the word "just" to diminish the meaning.

Guidelines are mean to guide. They aren't meant to be dogmatic. But they are meant to be followed closely. Why have a guideline if it's just going to be ignored?

[TOZ]

Why have rules if we can make it up as we go?

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

The biggest problems here are with misuing the word "guideline" and assuming that because you don't get your way you're penalized.

No one has misused the word guideline but you. You think it must be adhered to but that's not what a guideline means. You can double all the WBL values which is a gross variation of the WBL and yet if you modify the CR's of combat it balances out. And being penalized as defined earlier was that you are losing something when you should be getting it. Crafting feats, inherently, affect wealth and give you the ability to make any item you want based on your skill and time. Your examples removed one of these features and that is a penalty.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

The guideline is actually meant to be followed closely. That's what a guideline is. It really isn't an arbitrary set of numbers with no meaning. Jason Buhlman spent a bit of time talking to Monte Cook about this (Cook says so in the introduction of the CRB). Buhlman made sure that his adjustments were based on this information as well as the new adjustments he made on the treasure per encounter table. It's almost like he took the time to ensure everyone has the same resources so one character wouldn't automatically outshine another based on his pocketbook.

The quotes at the front state that everything was taken into account with the formula's and the rulings. If the rules allow for WBL to be exceeded then this is one of the things they've taken into account. You're making an assumption that this is to be interpreted another way.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

You also are not penalized because there isn't anything that says you should get more bang for you buck because you are a crafter. In fact, the WBL says the exact opposite. No matter how much anyone wants to deny this, it is very clear.

Raw Materials: A crafter will spend half the base value of an item in material costs.

Again with a guideline telling you the exact opposite. As a guideline, people shouldn't jump off of cliffs due to the danger of it. You cannot base a rules argument on a guideline.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

The only fair and reasonable way to determine wealth is to look at Market Value. The game uses three values for crafting: market value, base cost, and cost to create. The only one of those that matters for WBL is market value because it remains the same for everyone. Base cost is used to determine the cost to create. The cost to create only looks at the magic portion, completely ignoring the cost to craft the item from scratch.

The costs of crafting magic items is taking into account that you've already paid for the masterwork item to be enchanted. This is why its base cost vs market cost. Base cost is the value of enchanting materials + time. Market cost is Base cost + masterwork items. You tried to argue that this doesn't hold true for armor and weapons earlier.

Armor Bonus(Enhancement)= bonus squared*1000gp = Base value
Masterwork Armor cost = 150gp
Armor Cost = Varies by suit

A suit of +1 full plate costs a player 2650gp.
A suit of +1 full plate costs an enchanter 2150gp
A suit of +1 full plate costs th everything crafter even less. Don't remember if the cost of masterwork is halved or not off hand.

Weapon Bonus(Enhancement)= bonus squared*2000gp = Base value
Masterwork Weapon cost = 300gp
Weapon cost = Varies by weapon

A +1 longsword costs a player 2315gp.
A +1 longsword costs an enchanter 1315gp.
A +1 longsword costs the everything crafter even less.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

If the WBL wasn't meant to be used (and that is what people imply when they say "guideline" like it has no meaning) then it would be a waste of space in the book. That's several pages that could have been used for something else.

We don't say it has no value. We say you put too much value in it. It's a guideline used as a balancing act. You can balance a game in a variety of ways that doesn't coincide with the WBL. This is why it's a guideline and not a rule.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Let me ask this: as a GM, do you adjust the gear for NPCs that can craft?

This is why magic shops exist or even magic traders. It had to come from somewhere. People that work in those shops probably weren't adventurers and if they were I doubt they're level 20s that are now selling all the gear they adventured with and when it's sold its gone and they have to adventure again. The difference with NPC's is that they sell gear for full market value. This is why PC's buy it from them.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

As for the profession argument I made, the elf can adventure for 5 levels, the go back to farming, then adventure some more. He doesn't have to make all those rolls you implied. He can just Take 10. So why not allow him to start with more money? If you don't, then you are penalizing a longer lived race.

I'm sorry I didn't mention the take 10 mechanic. It's all the same thing. He gets to roll or he takes 10. He still gets money is what the implication was. He would have more money. He adventured and found treasures and would be comparable to the WBL if the campaign followed that or some variation of, and assuming he's not a crafter. He then left his adventuring days behind to become a farmer. With his wealth he bought a farm, a horse, all the necessities to til his land. He built a fence, and a barn. He raised goats. His wealth is still the sum of all of his posessions and his gold. He earned gold by selling goat milk and the vegetables he grew while taking 10 on his profession checks. Where does this not make sense that he wouldn't have increased his wealth in all this time. The only difference being he bought things to live in and house his animals which is a part of his wealth that he cannot adventure with.

[Khrysaor]

Maxximilius wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

I've already argued that you shouldn't. I've only said that as per RAW it is possible and players are justified in thinking this is ok.

We're totally in accordance about this point. How it is written doesn't follow how it should clearly be played ; and I had the opportunity to see how quick crafting could ridiculously break any game if used the Lawful Stupid way - since then, we don't have any more problems like this thanks to having some more neurons growing from 13-year old to 22. My snarky remarks weren't aimed at you, so I'm sorry if you felt like it.

lol all good. This is the big problem that leads to arguments. RAW vs RAI. I'm sure intentions were to not allow this but RAW allows for it. The only way to make it all fit within RAW is to make crafting not affect wealth. The only way I see this happening is having crafting done at full base value instead of half base value. This gives players the choice of what they want but doesn't let them do it cheaper than anyone else.

[TOZ]

Khrysaor wrote:

The only way I see this happening is having crafting done at full base value instead of half base value. This gives players the choice of what they want but doesn't let them do it cheaper than anyone else.

And that's really how the feat should read, so players don't make that mistake of 'I can get more than WBL!' and start arguments.

[Khrysaor]

Fergie wrote:

gnomersy wrote:

The point isn't that it should be counted for less it's that the WBL chart doesn't include the use of the crafting feats and accounts for selling the goods for half value to trade for custom gear bought at full cost.

I think you are failing to give the designers enough credit. Just because the text says, "It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased. " does not mean that crafting is outside the system. Crafting is just one of many possible uses of a characters (or parties) time and money that may or may not be more profitable then other uses.

As per examples, crafting is outside of these assumptions. And most definitely when it states things like 'some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased,' when crafters exist outside of this.

Fergie wrote:

You could also make a good argument that your aberrant sorceress with maxed out ranks in profession (prostitute) could also exceed WBL, and thus should start the game with more GP.

As I explained with Bob, a character would have varying wealth if they had the skills that affect wealth. The problem with professions and performances is that profession is a skill check over 1 week of work and performances require an audience. After her one week of selling herself she isn't going to be getting some ridiculous amount of money as it's half your check in gold per week. The performance check can net you more if you're a very good performer but requires you to play for people. Crafting can be done anywhere at any time(Obvious restrictions apply). If its just selling items and crafting it's a 1:1 ratio. If its using gold that was found with treasure you turn any gold amount into an item of double value.

Fergie wrote:

The other major flaw in this line of reasoning is the assumption that only the crafter benefits from the feat. Almost all skills and feats in the game are assumed to be used in helping the party achieve it's goals. The default Pathfinder game is not PvP nor is it a solo adventure. Experience and treasure are assumed to be divided equally between party members. Only the most selfish characters use their abilities solely for their own advantage.

This isn't an assumption. Its a statement of game mechanics. You're assuming a player is going to help others with his crafts but they don't have to. I'm not arguing for the munchkin as I always craft for my parties too, but this isn't forced it's more expectation so the crafters don't unbalance the game. Even if you were to craft for everyone, the whole party could now exceed WBL and this doesn't change the argument.

Fergie wrote:

The entire party is assumed to be taking a break from serious adventure while the crafter is doing his thing. The party makes a sacrifice in exchange for a benefit that should affect the group. While one group is spending a few weeks crafting, the other could be generating loot in other ways - like adventuring. There is no reason one group should be assumed to generate more wealth...

There's already mechanics in the rules for crafting while adventuring. No one should have to break to allow anyone to do anything. If there is a break though a crafter can do what he needs twice as fast by using the accelerated crafting rules. In the field the rules show that it takes longer to do these things. And again it's not an assumption on a class or ability being able to generate more wealth, it's using the mechanics we are all given.

[Fergie]

Crafting is NOT outside the assumption of WBL. The line of text you cited in no way proves that crafting is outside intended WBL. You could sell a small boat you acquired, and buy horses. Or you could sell a huge suit of armor, and buy gear to craft with. Unless you have Craft (equine) or Craft (crafting gear), crafting isn't going to help you.

Khrysaor wrote:

And again it's not an assumption on a class or ability being able to generate more wealth, it's using the mechanics we are all given.

The entire game is essentially a system based on killing monster and taking their stuff - ("...the primary income for a PC derives from treasure and loot gained from adventuring"). That is by far the most profitable enterprise in the game. Anything you do that makes you better at that, such as crafting, power attacking, stealth, bluff, heal, etc. will generate wealth. Crafting is not a beautiful and unique snowflake, it is just another feat or skill that makes you a little better at killing things and taking their stuff.

Finally, crafting requires a Spellcraft check. If you are making skill checks, THE GAME HAS BEGUN! There is no prequel negative time line where the game is played first before you start, you know... playing.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

Please explain how you reconcile that with the following quote.

Quote:

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.

Now, how do you determine the amount of treasure and magic items a character has?

Or, more to the point, are two characters, one with a Holy Avenger, and the other with a Holy Avenger and 56000 GP, roughly equal in their treasure and magic items?

They are as equal as their abilities allow them to be. I can't change what crafting says you can do. However, it's effects remain the same. Given the same pile of cash, the crafter will always have more or better stuff.

[TOZ]

And you deny that this goes against the WBL guidelines?

[Irontruth]

Khrysaor wrote:

The lich has those abilities and can use them. He's undead and has infinite time to do so until the heroes come along and relieve him of this. Then again the lich isn't an adventurer that gains extra wealth to use on crafting. The lich doesn't have access to purchasing magic items or crafting materials. Sure he can cast alter self and go to town and buy them. But then he's far from his domain where he would feel safest. Knowing his phylactory isn't going to be found.

You skipped over the important part, do magic items affect the lich's CR?

If a DM added 50,000gp worth of magic items to a lich (useful items for the lich) should the CR increase? What if I give it 100,000? 2,000,000? My point is that wealth (as measured in magic items) has a direct impact on game balance. Are you trying to argue that wealth does not have a direct impact on game balance?

Also, can I play a Paladin 5? His church thinks he is the best chance to save the world, so they sold him +5 Full Plate, +5 Heavy Shield and a Holy Avenger each for 1g. 3g is well under WBL for level 5.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

And you deny that this goes against the WBL guidelines?

Again, WBL is an amount of gold a character is given depending on their character level. Crafting says you can make items for a fraction of their cost. So, does crafting go against the WBL guideline? No. You're not taking an item and making it into something else of greater value. You're taking the money that is awarded your character and spending as per your feats, skills and the game says you can. If a character is only ever given items that they can sell for gold, then the crafter's gear will stay at the same market value as the character who decided to keep that item. However, if you give them both 1,000 gold the crafter can turn that into an item worth 2,000 gold because that is what his abilities and the game says he can do.

[TOZ]

Buri wrote:

Again, WBL is an amount of gold a character is given depending on their character level.

It's a recommendation of the amount the DM can give a character above 1st level.

Nothing in it says the DM HAS to give the character that much, or even give it in gold.

[mdt]

Buri wrote:

TOZ wrote:

And you deny that this goes against the WBL guidelines?

Again, WBL is an amount of gold a character is given depending on their character level.

PRD wrote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

No, it isn't. It is the amount of treasure they are expected to have, not the amount of gold given. The value of treasure is the sum value of the treasure. For all intents and purposes, it's the amount of treasure the PC would have as represented to an NPC adventuring party. So, if 4 level 10's killed your level 10 character, they should expect to receive 64,000 gp worth of treasure. Not 128,000gp, not 85,000gp, and not 35,000 gp.

[TOZ]

In fact...

Quote:

As PCs gain levels, the amount of treasure they carry and use increases as well. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items. Since the primary income for a PC derives from treasure and loot gained from adventuring, it's important to moderate the wealth and hoards you place in your adventures. To aid in placing treasure, the amount of treasure and magic items the PCs receive for their adventures is tied to the Challenge Rating of the encounters they face—the higher an encounter's CR, the more treasure it can award.

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

Table: Treasure Values per Encounter lists the amount of treasure each encounter should award based on the average level of the PCs and the speed of the campaign's XP progression (slow, medium, or fast). Easy encounters should award treasure one level lower than the PCs' average level. Challenging, hard, and epic encounters should award treasure one, two, or three levels higher than the PCs' average level, respectively. If you are running a low-fantasy game, cut these values in half. If you are running a high-fantasy game, double these values.

Encounters against NPCs typically award three times the treasure a monster-based encounter awards, due to NPC gear. To compensate, make sure the PCs face off against a pair of additional encounters that award little in the way of treasure. Animals, plants, constructs, mindless undead, oozes, and traps are great “low treasure” encounters. Alternatively, if the PCs face a number of creatures with little or no treasure, they should have the opportunity to acquire a number of significantly more valuable objects sometime in the near future to make up for the imbalance. As a general rule, PCs should not own any magic item worth more than half their total character wealth, so make sure to check before awarding expensive magic items.

I just CTRL-F'ed that section for the word 'gold'. I didn't find it.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

It's a recommendation of the amount the DM can give a character above 1st level.

Nothing in it says the DM HAS to give the character that much, or even give it in gold.

Take a player fresh to the game and tell him to create a character of a certain level higher than 1 without telling him how much starting cash he has to spend. Once he gets to the Equipment section, what do you think he will do? I highly doubt he will think anything other than to look at the table and assume that's how much cash he has since that's how the text is written.

And no, it's not a recommendation. The GM can use the fiat rule to say you start with a different amount. Otherwise the text states you get a certain GP amount and to look at the WBL for amounts for characters higher than level 1. It is not written is a vague way. It is very clear "a character gets a certain number of gold pieces ... for a character above level 1 see the WBL table." There is no vagueness there. Each character gets a certain amount of a gold that is determined based upon their level. If a GM wishes to say "you start with a +1 longsowrd and deduct this cost from your starting gold" that is one thing. Otherwise, a player is completely free and open to spend his gold as he sees fit.