Tyki11 wrote: KrispyXIV wrote: Tyki11 wrote: Food for thought:
Fighter | Wizard skill amount is the same.
Fighter gets one feat at 1st, one at 2nd, and then one each other level.
Wizard gets scribe at 1st, then one each fifth level.
If fighter went for CWI. He'd have Master Craftsman at 1st, CWI at 3rd.
That leaves racial bonus feat, if any, and two fighter feats at 3rd level.
If wizard did the same, he'd have racial bonus feat, if any, and a single lvl feat.
So no, caster is not the better crafter.
Note that the fighter example applies to monks, rangers, cavalier, gunslinger, and even rogue, as they can trade talents for combat feats.
This would be true IF Master Craftsman didn't require 5 skill ranks and only apply to one skill (meaning unless your Craft is particularly broad, you're going to have to do some convincing to get full use out of something like CWI out of it). WHy do I always miss those things while tired?
Fine, you're right. So now he has to be 5th or higher to pull this combo off. Which is a 2 lvl higher than I first said.
You just so happen to get a feat at 3rd level (6 ranks), and one later that can be spent on CWI.
If using Re-Training rules for higher level character(3rd or higher), then my example still stands. Still not quite. It needs 5 ranks. The 3 for class skill is a bonus, not 3 more ranks. So MC at 6, CWI or CAA at 9.
I'd also argue that the craft skill needs to be appropriate to the item, so you'll either need multiple skills or be very limited.
thejeff wrote: cake Huh, maybe still used to 3.5. I thought I read somewhere that the +3 count as ranks to meet prerequesites.
But yeah, going step by step. MC at 6th, CAA | CWI at 9th. Still not shabby for a 10th level fighter, as was the example given before.
Now, on other hand, it also depends if you use retrain type of chargen, which is the most common one I've experienced past 1st level, in which case, MC at 1st, CWW | CWI at 3rd if it's 5th level or higher game with retraining chargen.
By RAW, MC uses the picked skill instead of the standard Spellcraft.
Though Craft (Jewelry) would cover almost any Wondrous Item fluffwise.
Master craftsman can never be selected before level 5 as you need 5 ranks and ranks can never exceed you level. Craft wondrous items has no restriction beyond the level 3 listed in the feat. So MC is the only restriction above a caster's requirement. There is no restriction on what a wondrous item has to be. You could have a belt of vast intelligence at the exact same cost as the headband. The book only provides people with a list of potential items that can be created, it doesn't say they are restricted to those slots. Being able to make custom items confirms this thought.
Edit: my bad it is caster level and not just level for craft feats so a non caster could have the craft feats starting at level 7 by taking master craftsman at level 5. The craft feats are restricted to craft wondrous items and craft arms and armor. You also get a +2 on your craft attempts from the master craftsman feat.
I didn't read every post since my last one, but I'd like to reply to what seems to be mdt's main point.
yes a newly created level 10 charater with CWI should have double the gear value as one without it, especially yes if he also has craft magic arms and armor and wands etc.... whatever.....
Main reason being the feats should DO SOMETHING FFS!!!!
also I have never seen a character actually played all 10 levels have as little as the indicated WBL in the core rulebook. The WBL is the bare minimum imo.
The fact that this is even a subject of discussion is shocking to me.
I don't want to resort to namecalling, but I do start to wonder sometimes...
Tyki11 wrote: thejeff wrote: cake Huh, maybe still used to 3.5. I thought I read somewhere that the +3 count as ranks to meet prerequesites. The rule you're looking at was from the transfer between 3.5 to PF. For the purposes of qualifying for PrCs and some feats, one of the guidelines given was to subtract 3 from the skill req. This could be adjusted up or down based on your thoughts and experience.
Wealth by level is a game balancing guideline. If you give characters more "wealth" you effectively increase their power level.
If you feel this is offset by the loss of feats incured by choosing crafting then thats fine, if not then there is a problem.
If you decide that a character with crafting feats has effectively got double the wealth by level, they will effectively be working at a +1 or even +2 ECL. Thats at least partly why there is no crafting in PFS.
Crafting can become a real problem in a setting such as Kingmaker, where the PC's can use the wealth of the kingdom to craft magic items, trade them and increase wealth or generate more powerful characters. This will impact upon your game.
mdt wrote: Ok Buri, but how do you determine who get's how much time? Does Player A get to boost his WBL by 25%, while B get's 45%? and C get's 90%? Why did A, B and C get different amounts? Is it because C is your girlfriend, and you can't pass your finals without help from B?
Tyki,
I don't know how PFS works. Every game I've ever been in, you don't get gold for treasure, you get treasure. Hmmm, I have no use for this 10,000gp +2 Flaming Frosting Trident of tuna summoning. I'll go sell it to the fishermen's guild for 5,000gp. Then I'll take that 5,000 gp and craft a +2 bow of dear summoning. No increase in WBL because I sold 10, got 5, crafted, and got 10.
That's what I said earlier.
So if a few items dropped for your party that no one had a use for, your players would keep these items until more items dropped of equal value to distribute them evenly? Or would they just sell the first batch of items when they could and evenly split the gold you've turned them into? I don't know anyone that would be happy getting an item that they have no use for because it's of a value to keep their WBL on par with the rest of the party. Especially if that player is a non-crafter that has to sell the item to be of any value for them and suddenly their WBL is off in the negative direction.
EX. Party of 5 has an encounter that drops ten +1 swords when they all have +3 weapons. Evenly distributed they all sell them for 2000gp net gain. Non-crafters can only buy one 2000gp item where the crafter can make one 4000gp item.
There will never be a way around this until crafters have to pay full base value for crafting items. This doesn't mean crafters should be able to double their wealth for the exact reasons you've stated. Items will drop that they want or the party wants which helps keep things relative to WBL. Unfortunately saying you allow for in game crafting to exceed wealth but not pre-game to creates a double standard.
Someone mentioned in another thread about wealth distribution for characters. I'm sure it was a level 1 reference it it's at least numbers to understand a bit of wealth distribution. Something like 25% for your weapon and 25% for armor and some other things, I think it was around 10% for gold or something. This could be extrapolated on a by level basis assuming 10% of treasure could have been gold. This won't add up to the potential a crafter could make while adventuring but it's a solution to keep munchkins down.
@khrysaor
Go read the Wealth By Level section. It calls out to GMs to adjust treasure to keep the WBL on track. So if they don't like what they have, and toss it away, or sell it, or whatever, then the GM puts out some more treasure to bring them back up to WBL. if they go way over, then he puts out more no-treasure encounters.
All this would be much less of an argument if more people actually GMd and read the GM section on WBL and the forewords on why it's an important guideline (as in, you should be within spitting distance of this, which is what a guideline is). If you aren't, then CRs start to get thrown out of whack, cause they are calculated based on the WBL charts. This is especially bad for GMs that run modules. If you're off the WBL track by too much either way, either the PCs are going to be having a hard time surviving or they're going to be walking through the AP like it's peanut brittle. Which means the GM has to rebalance everything everywhere to adjust for it. Including lowering the CRs of encounters to compensate for the inflated CR of the PCs.
It's really a pain in the ass, seriously.
mdt wrote: @khrysaor
Go read the Wealth By Level section. It calls out to GMs to adjust treasure to keep the WBL on track. So if they don't like what they have, and toss it away, or sell it, or whatever, then the GM puts out some more treasure to bring them back up to WBL. if they go way over, then he puts out more no-treasure encounters.
All this would be much less of an argument if more people actually GMd and read the GM section on WBL and the forewords on why it's an important guideline (as in, you should be within spitting distance of this, which is what a guideline is). If you aren't, then CRs start to get thrown out of whack, cause they are calculated based on the WBL charts. This is especially bad for GMs that run modules. If you're off the WBL track by too much either way, either the PCs are going to be having a hard time surviving or they're going to be walking through the AP like it's peanut brittle. Which means the GM has to rebalance everything everywhere to adjust for it. Including lowering the CRs of encounters to compensate for the inflated CR of the PCs.
It's really a pain in the ass, seriously.
I've already read through the section. Several times. Along with the entire CRB, APG, DMG, UM, UC, and several bestiaries. This is why I come up with relevant references to alternatives. You've just been choosing to ignore what craft feats will, inherently, do. The odd thing is that you've only chosen to express this for pre-game crafting where in game play it's ok. I'm not telling you to let players double their wealth. I'm not even asking you to let players increase it by 50%. I've just been asking you to recognize that crafting feats are, by design, going to increase a characters wealth. As a GM it will be up to you to come up with ideas on how to level the playing field. You aren't looking at things objectively because, from all of your posts would imply, you've been subject to a munchkin and aren't having any more of it.
I have given you several general examples on how this is done and still you will not accept this. You can cling to your own ideals but don't try to impress them upon me without legitimate examples and rulings that isn't just a corner case that any GM should be able to resolve. Remember that strawman you attempted to make one of my references? This is your entire argument. Again. Play your games how you choose. YMMV. But don't tell people something is broken because you can't fix it.
Now it's your turn to tell me how this is all GM fiat and isn't a solution... again. I'm telling you there is no solution short of telling crafters they craft things at full base value or there is opportunity for crafters to achieve higher wealth than the WBL table indicates. Since you've chosen to already do this by stating they can have custom items they just have to be at full base value on character creation, this leaves the fact that you can still have custom items. Since that's the major bonus you hope from the item creation feats the problem is solved.
Morain wrote: The fact that this is even a subject of discussion is shocking to me.
I don't want to resort to namecalling, but I do start to wonder sometimes...
^This.
My guess? It was guestimated.
Cheapy wrote: My guess? It was guestimated. Would be my guess too. Took a few character ideas with some item sets and rolled a couple dice to see how it felt vs an appropriate CR. If it seemed too easy they probably had too much.
Svipdag wrote:
If you decide that a character with crafting feats has effectively got double the wealth by level, they will effectively be working at a +1 or even +2 ECL. Thats at least partly why there is no crafting in PFS.
Also comes down to the items chosen. I'm a fan of having things like multiple campfire beads and other small utility items that make party life easier and don't provide a huge benefit to the character. But yes, optimally this will happen.
Svipdag wrote:
Crafting can become a real problem in a setting such as Kingmaker, where the PC's can use the wealth of the kingdom to craft magic items, trade them and increase wealth or generate more powerful characters. This will impact upon your game.
Kingmaker is even more of a pain. You can borrow 4000gp from your kingdom, craft it into two 4000gp items, keep one and balance your account with your kingdom with the other. Or return both for a net gain to your kingdom. Pretty sure there was a thread around here about it a while back.
*sigh*
I'm not 'ignoring' it for crafting in game. I'm saying that crafting in game never triggers the issue. Because MOST of the time they're selling item A and crafting item B and breaking even. I've been saying A and B, but it might just as easily be I'm going to sell items A, B, C, D, and E across a level, split the 10,000 gold amongst all 4 people, take the 2,500 I get and craft a ring of sustenance and an amulet of mighty fists. The fighter buys a ring of sustenance with his share, and someone else spends their 2,500 on buying some mithral ore for later making of their armor.
All that basically tends to level out over time though, and the rules say it should, because I should adjust the treasure amounts handed out to keep them within spitting distance of the WBL. What usually ends up happening is that one player may end up at WBL+10%, another at WBL-5%, another right on WBL, and the last at WBL+5%.
They're still about WBL, and the crafter is probably the guy at +10%. They're happier because the crafter usually is keeping everyone in exactly what they want, instead of what they find randomly. What I don't have is a fighter at WBL, a Cleric at WBL+85%, a Rogue at WBL, and a wizard at WBL+85%.
That is my objection to using crafting on starting funds, you end up with someone doubling their WBL and unbalancing the game, throwing off the CRs.
mdt wrote: *sigh*
I'm not 'ignoring' it for crafting in game. I'm saying that crafting in game never triggers the issue. Because MOST of the time they're selling item A and crafting item B and breaking even. I've been saying A and B, but it might just as easily be I'm going to sell items A, B, C, D, and E across a level, split the 10,000 gold amongst all 4 people, take the 2,500 I get and craft a ring of sustenance and an amulet of mighty fists. The fighter buys a ring of sustenance with his share, and someone else spends their 2,500 on buying some mithral ore for later making of their armor.
All that basically tends to level out over time though, and the rules say it should, because I should adjust the treasure amounts handed out to keep them within spitting distance of the WBL. What usually ends up happening is that one player may end up at WBL+10%, another at WBL-5%, another right on WBL, and the last at WBL+5%.
They're still about WBL, and the crafter is probably the guy at +10%. They're happier because the crafter usually is keeping everyone in exactly what they want, instead of what they find randomly. What I don't have is a fighter at WBL, a Cleric at WBL+85%, a Rogue at WBL, and a wizard at WBL+85%.
That is my objection to using crafting on starting funds, you end up with someone doubling their WBL and unbalancing the game, throwing off the CRs.
Except in your example the crafter is still getting double value on his gold essentially he would be at WBL with dropped loot while everyone else is at half WBL (assuming they sell everything)
Now this doesn't happen because people don't always sell everything, at least half of it gets used. So 75% WBL vs 100% WBL + small change of up to 10% based on how much gold you throw out as loot.
Furthermore the chances of the crafter solely crafting for himself are pretty low so that gap closes up to say 90% vs 120% since the crafter gives his own projects some priority but still helps out when he can. Is 30% WBL worth 2-5 feats?
The other option is to intentionally screw the crafter aka dropping the perfect gear for everyone else and expensive garbage loot that the crafter has to change into useful gear resulting in 100% vs 100%+small change via gold loot but the problem is that devalues the crafting feats to the point of worthlessness and you may as well just ban them outright and let the crafter pick useful feats.
The last one is the scenario that is duplicated in the event that you don't allow the crafters to use crafting to exceed WBL at the start of a game and yet for some reason allow everyone else to have exactly the gear they want with the entirety of their wealth.
I have no issue with the crafter crafting for everyone else in game. Again, the book says to keep the WBL balanced (not exact, guideline balanced). What usually ends up happening (and I've been running 3.5/PF for, hmmm, about 12 years now?) is that everyone ends up about WBL, roughly, and nothing get's out of whack. The crafters are happy because they control when and where they get equipment. As far as the crafter pulling ahead, I've found that rarely happens, what usually happens is everyone looks at who has what, see's that the fighter is underequipped compared to everyone else, and they all toss some gold at the crafter to boost up his armor or his weapon or his cape as they travel.
The only time I've ever had a problem with this is when we're talking about taking starting wealth and having a crafter start with double the equipment value than everyone else. I let it happen one time back in 3.5, and everyone hated it, because this guy would shine in every combat, was untouchable by the CR appropriate creatures, and when I put something out that could touch him, it smashed the other players.
I honestly feel sorry for GMs where they have players who screw over other players in order to get more equipment and gold than everyone else by charging teammates for crafting, or for refusing to craft for anyone else but wanting full shares so that they are way ahead of everyone else on equipment.
mdt wrote: *sigh*
I'm not 'ignoring' it for crafting in game. I'm saying that crafting in game never triggers the issue. Because MOST of the time they're selling item A and crafting item B and breaking even. I've been saying A and B, but it might just as easily be I'm going to sell items A, B, C, D, and E across a level, split the 10,000 gold amongst all 4 people, take the 2,500 I get and craft a ring of sustenance and an amulet of mighty fists. The fighter buys a ring of sustenance with his share, and someone else spends their 2,500 on buying some mithral ore for later making of their armor.
All that basically tends to level out over time though, and the rules say it should, because I should adjust the treasure amounts handed out to keep them within spitting distance of the WBL. What usually ends up happening is that one player may end up at WBL+10%, another at WBL-5%, another right on WBL, and the last at WBL+5%.
They're still about WBL, and the crafter is probably the guy at +10%. They're happier because the crafter usually is keeping everyone in exactly what they want, instead of what they find randomly. What I don't have is a fighter at WBL, a Cleric at WBL+85%, a Rogue at WBL, and a wizard at WBL+85%.
That is my objection to using crafting on starting funds, you end up with someone doubling their WBL and unbalancing the game, throwing off the CRs.
There is no leveling out of funds in your example without refusing to give the crafter items as time goes by. If you in turn give the other 3 players 10% extra to balance out the crafter why is the crafter not entitled to that treasure as well. If everyone is receiving equal shares of treasure the crafter will pull ahead. Marginally at first, but it will compound as you level in the same way that WBL does.
Unless of course you are always giving the other players their wishlist items and forcing the crafter to use his skills to keep pace with everyone else. Or just give everyone the items they want to keep things WBL friendly and making the crafter's feats useless.
Just do the math and it's really easy.
Encounter 1: party receives 10000gp in items split 4 ways is 2500gp of items each. All useless items and the players sell it all for 1250gp. Crafter makes his back into a 2500gp item and the other 3 buy 1250gp in items.
Encounter 2: party receives 10000gp in items split 4 ways is 2500gp of items each. Except this item is useful to 2 of 4 players, one not being the crafter. Those people maintain their wealth keeping the item, the crafter turns his into an item of equal value, the fourth guy is screwed and sells his for 1250gp. Now the 4th guy is down 2500gp from the crafter who is still 1250gp ahead of the other 2.
Encounter 3: party receives 10000gp in items split 4 ways is 2500gp of items each. Now the crafter and the 4th guy get to keep items and the other 2 have to sell. The crafter maintains his distance from the 4th guy but pulls ahead another 1250gp from the other two who are now equal to the 4th guy. Crafter is ahead 2500gp.
Encounter 4: party receives 10000gp in items split 4 ways is 2500gp of items each. Everyone keeps the items except the crafter. The crafter still maintains his monetary advantage by selling the item and making an equivalently valued item.
Encounter 5: party receives 10000gp in items split 4 ways is 2500gp of items each. Everyone keeps them. Nothing changes.
As you can see the only way of keeping the WBL equal with a crafter is by giving everyone what they want or everyone except the crafter whom you now make jump through hoops to maintain his advantage or he falls back to the average WBL. In any other regard where items are not being kept by players the crafter gains an advantage. So now as a GM with a crafter in your group you will choose to give the crafter the choice of the items he wants through crafting. And give the party the choice of the items they want because they have no means of keeping up with the ability of a crafter to turn his money into items. And now you've mitigated the benefit of crafting the items you want cause everyone gets the items they want regardless of feats.
Like I've said, if the only benefit of crafting you want to give your group is the choice of items then crafting has to be done at a 1:1 with market value:material cost. Other wise its a 2:1 and the crafter has an advantage.
I really don't know how else to explain this to you and I haven't been telling you that it's ok to give players double their WBL. I've been protesting the idea every step by saying it's up to the GM to keep things in line. I gave ideas like using the wealth distribution for a level 1 that was referenced by someone else to figure out how much gold they could have potentially had to invest. Or to use the wealthy character rules in the DMG to allow a crafter to have his 10-20% wealth increase beyond the WBL. Or you could even set an arbitrary number like 5%, 10%, 20%, 50%, 100%, 10000000000000000000000%. And as I said with rule 0, the power is yours.
But it's ok. The arbitrary number you chose was 0%. This effectively mitigates all the benefits of crafting save the one about making customizable items. Which as it stands you give to everyone to ensure the crafter doesn't reap any extra benefits.
You keep throwing this munchkin abuse thing at me that I've already told you is GM control as there are several facets to this game that can be power gamed and must be controlled by the GM to allow for fun on all accounts. Just like combat isn't fun for a party at low level to mid levels when there's a greater cleaving power attacking epic strength dumb fighter swinging his greatsword all over the battlefield taking out 2-8 monsters a swing while the rest of the party get to attack one monster and still not kill it. It's up to the GM to spread monsters out so they don't fall prey to this retarded attack pattern. To throw in a mage to daze or mind control or just force that fighter to make a will save in general.
CRs also get thrown off by feats you choose. Someone who plays a flavorful character will be less useful in combat than the character who built his optimally. And the same can be said of magic items. If you have a higher than average WBL but you actually have less wealth that is applicable to your character due to support items for party members or situation things this will affect your CR next to the guy that has items that specifically make him awesome. A fighter with a +3 greatsword is more of a threat than a fighter with a +1 greatsword, a ring of sustenance, a bag of holding, and a griffon statuette. That guy with the abundance of items has more utility as he can travel further faster. He can hold more items. He doesn't need as much sleep. But when it comes to combat he misses 10% more than the guy who took the +3 weapon. There's more to the argument than, *cry* my players are min/maxers and abuse the craft systems to make themselves uber powerful. What can I do about this? */cry*
Please choose your next argument a little better as the munchkin abuse you keep using really makes you that broken record you don't like being.
*sigh*
I can see we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I do not apparently play with people who behave as you stated above in your examples. The people I usually play with don't use micrometer's to split all treasure exactly evenly, they give whoever needs a little more to be even with everyone else a little more, those who are already ahead of the curve pass on items.
I really do have sympathy for you for having players that insist on having exactly the same amount out of each treasure batch just so the crafters can have 50 to 100% more than everyone else.
I don't see how you can give extra starting wealth for crafting feats as the rules are written, since the only guideline is WBL which doesn't have anything to do. Sure, you can arbitrarily pick a percentage and say 'If you get a crafting feat, you can have 25% more equipment'. But then what happens with 2 feats, 50%? 3 feats 75%? My biggest issue is that the game has nothing in it to balance that out. No other feat offers that much advantage, and I don't think it was intended to. Again, you apparently do think that a single feat should provide that benefit. And if you want to run your games that way, you're more than entitled to. That's what house ruling is for.
But it is a house rule, and people keep saying it's a core rule. If this was all in the homebrew/houserule/etc, then I'd have stated my concern and then gone on off. But it's in the core rules section, and I do not think this is core rules. Nothing in the core rule book says 'You can craft with starting wealth'. There's issues with it, and any 'limit' on how much benefit you get is strictly arbitrary and capricious. Core rules don't put out benefits without specifying what those benefits are. Power attack doesn't say 'you get a bonus to hit' and not tell you what that bonus is, or what the limits on it are.
So either you can craft with beginning wealth, in which case there should be NO limit on it, and you can double your wealth (because the game doesn't set a limit), or, you shouldn't be able to because the game doesn't have any rules for it. But you and everyone else wants some mushy middle ground that's not supported in the rules and then want to call it RAW. It's not RAW, or it would be defined.
Anyway, I'm done. Enjoy your games, that's the important thing. Hopefully the Devs will start working on the FAQ system again, it's been like 3-4 months since they did anything serious on them. *sigh*
mdt wrote: *sigh*
I can see we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I do not apparently play with people who behave as you stated above in your examples. The people I usually play with don't use micrometer's to split all treasure exactly evenly, they give whoever needs a little more to be even with everyone else a little more, those who are already ahead of the curve pass on items.
I really do have sympathy for you for having players that insist on having exactly the same amount out of each treasure batch just so the crafters can have 50 to 100% more than everyone else.
I don't see how you can give extra starting wealth for crafting feats as the rules are written, since the only guideline is WBL which doesn't have anything to do. Sure, you can arbitrarily pick a percentage and say 'If you get a crafting feat, you can have 25% more equipment'. But then what happens with 2 feats, 50%? 3 feats 75%? My biggest issue is that the game has nothing in it to balance that out. No other feat offers that much advantage, and I don't think it was intended to. Again, you apparently do think that a single feat should provide that benefit. And if you want to run your games that way, you're more than entitled to. That's what house ruling is for.
But it is a house rule, and people keep saying it's a core rule. If this was all in the homebrew/houserule/etc, then I'd have stated my concern and then gone on off. But it's in the core rules section, and I do not think this is core rules. Nothing in the core rule book says 'You can craft with starting wealth'. There's issues with it, and any 'limit' on how much benefit you get is strictly arbitrary and capricious. Core rules don't put out benefits without specifying what those benefits are. Power attack doesn't say 'you get a bonus to hit' and not tell you what that bonus is, or what the limits on it are.
So either you can craft with beginning wealth, in which case there should be NO limit on it, and you can double your wealth (because the game doesn't...
Always back to the same argument of me wanting to allow munchkins to abuse the system. And you protesting that maintaining WBL even though there's been ample evidence of how a character can exceed it is not you houseruling. I'm glad you're still as pompous and self-righteous as you were in that other thread.
In all of my games players get items. Some items are kept. If they're not they get pooled and sold and the wealth is again split unless someone feels the item they kept deems they shouldn't get any of the gold. In either case the crafter using his feats that allow him to craft at the 2:1 ratio has an advantage above the non-crafters. In every game I've been a crafter, I have been the noble player that crafts for everyone. My current character spends his time crafting alchemical items so the party has an advantage in random circumstances. This all comes out of his own pocket but he doesn't care cause money comes and money goes. Keeping your friends alive is the mastercard experience.
Stating, as your posts before oh so importantly show, that a character in-game can use his abilities to increase his WBL and then not allowing a character to do so on character creation is arbitrary and capricious. It is a houserule that isn't supported by RAW. It is GM fiat. It is any random way you'd like to word it that results in the same thing. Assuming that someone is arguing with you because they want to allow munchkins to get away with double wealth has been your downfall since the other 8 page thread began. Refusing to see things from another perspective after endless examples prove otherwise is extremely closed-minded. Providing a single example to defend an argument that took pages to finish is likewise. Read. Interpret. Understand. Debate.
mdt wrote:
But it is a house rule, and people keep saying it's a core rule. If this was all in the homebrew/houserule/etc, then I'd have stated my concern and then gone on off. But it's in the core rules section, and I do not think this is core rules. Nothing in the core rule book says 'You can craft with starting wealth'. There's issues with it, and any 'limit' on how much benefit you get is strictly arbitrary and capricious. Core rules don't put out benefits without specifying what those benefits are. Power attack doesn't say 'you get a bonus to hit' and not tell you what that bonus is, or what the limits on it are.
So either you can craft with beginning wealth, in which case there should be NO limit on it, and you can double your wealth (because the game doesn't...
Interesting point here but sadly completely invalidated by the fact that nothing in the core rules allows you you get to have WBL of starting wealth or how to use it when you create a character at a level above level one it in fact tells you to go discuss it with your DM thereby making the entire process of a non level 1 character having wealth not RAW or makes house rules the RAW in that case depending on how you look at it.
Ok,
I will put this as simply as I can possibly put it.
Premise 1 : By RAW, WBL allows crafting pre-game.
Premise 2 : By RAW, Crafting does not affect WBL.
If Premise 1 is true, then WBL can be doubled for anyone with a crafting feat by using all starting wealth to craft. The reason they can double it is that there are no limits on how much WBL can be used for crafting. Now, maybe I missed the rules in the rulebook somehow. If there are, then please quote the RAW for me, and I'll drop the issue and apologize. Not, try to balance it with a GM adjudication, not Rule 0, something in the book, printed on a page, or on the PRD, or in an FAQ. Point to the paragraph that limits how much of WBL can be used with crafting.
If Premise 2 is true, then WBL is fixed for anyone starting, and is not affected by the crafting feat(s).
Now, choose either premise you want, one has to be true, the other would then be false. There is no middle ground, either it's RAW and covered (and you can quote the rules), or it's not allowed. Rule 0 is not a valid 'This is RAW' since by Rule 0 I can rule that all PCs must play hamsters with a 2 int. That's not RAW, that's homebrew. Rule 0 is an escape clause from RAW. RAW is what is actually written as a rule in the book.
Ruggs wrote: There is a trait that exists to increase starting wealth: Rich Parents. Rich Parents effectively increases your starting WBL by one level.* If a feat is worth two traits, then we could say that one feat is worth twice what Rich Parents is...or something close to +2 to your WBL score.
Crafting feats offer additional benefits above our doubled trait. That is, they:
- Benefit the PC by increasing their wealth
- Benefit the PC by allowing them items customized to their character
- Benefit the PC by allowing them a greater selection of available items
Here is part of the stumbling block. If we want to use an existing guideline such as Rich Parents, then what do we do with the other benefits? How do they measure in comparison?
Defining the intent of the feats would be helpful--that is, sitting down with the developers around the coffee table and ask about the feats' intent.
That is, are the crafting feats intended as +wealth, or are they +customization, or +options? This intent is often at the heart of disagreements.
This conversation may be different than one they'd had a year ago--Pathfinder has made changes, especially with Master Craftsman, and today they would have the benefit of that experience.
* It's close. You begin with 900 at 1st. 2nd begins with 1000.
This. This is the conversation I want to have. The other "debate" going on is not adding any value IMO (unlike these feats!).
Just went through this thread ... and there seems to be some premise or idea that wealth granted post lvl 1 as indicated by the WBL chart (which a DM doesn't even need to use to give wealth to a PC entering after lvl 1) can be used for crafting purposes. From the section on the WBL chart:
Quote:
Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is
expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table
assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games
might award only half this value, while high-fantasy
games might double the value. It is assumed that some of
this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure
(such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less
useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can
be purchased.
Table 12–4 can also be used to budget gear for
characters starting above 1st level, such as a new
character created to replace a dead one. Characters
should spend no more than half their total wealth on
any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that
are built after 1st level should spend no more than
25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and
protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on
disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and
10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character
types might spend their wealth differently than these
percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might
spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on
other magic items and disposable items.
It seems pretty clear to me in the second paragraph that that money granted by the DM to the PC is to be spent on items, not crafting materials. I'm not sure where an interpretation that the money can be or the DM should allow it to be spent on crafting materials is implied or even intended. Seems very clear, RAW (a silly term to use for a table that is for DM use only as a guide to assist them in their encounter development ... I discourage my PCs from even looking at it so they won't think its some sort of benchmark) that that wealth in the WBL table is to purchase items (already crafted) for your above 1st lvl PC. So the discussion is rather moot. Any DM who allows their players to use that wealth to craft stuff is making a critical error in what that table is for, and that it will have a direct impact on the challenges in the game.
EDIT: And no, "disposable items" here is not intended to be interpreted as "crafting materials".
"Ordinary Gear" on the other hand, can be counted as "crafting materials".
Which I could spend 10% on by default, if that is used, note it says "Table 12-4 can be used to budget gear." emphasis on Can.
Also it says that a wizard could spend gear differently. So it's already shaky text to base anything on, as it firstly suggests to be optional, secondly it says "It's ok to change this."
Secondly, it still seems to boil down to it being okey to break the WBL with Rich Parents trait, and after game starts with crafting (note that low level firearms ammo is more expensive than low lvl scrolls), but not before.
I find it funny that you're ok with a rich parents gunslinger/holy gun who has the WBL of a 2.5th character.
(Did I mention he can make bullets more expensive than 1st level scroll at a faster pace?)
But the wizard making fifteen 1st level scrolls saving whole 187.5gp is a bad, bad, wbl breaking man.
But hey, the gunslinger/holy gun does it Raw, so it's all good.
Aaron Webber wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me in the second paragraph that that money granted by the DM to the PC is to be spent on items, not crafting materials. I'm not sure where an interpretation that the money can be or the DM should allow it to be spent on crafting materials is implied or even intended. Seems very clear, RAW (a silly term to use for a table that is for DM use only as a guide to assist them in their encounter development ... I discourage my PCs from even looking at it so they won't think its some sort of benchmark) that that...
I agree the RAW doesn't allow pre game crafting but in paragraph 1 it says,
"It is assumed that some of
this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure
(such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less
useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can
be purchased."
Note that the WBL chart assumes, and therefore accounts for, items which are sold at half value. The crafting feats essentially allow you to sell items at full value for the purposes of gaining gear of its type and therefore the crafter must exceed the WBL values given if he crafts at all during the game.
Should it be by 100%? Almost certainly not, and in theory he could pull that off if all his stuff was crafted magical wondrous items but since in the ordinary course of the game if it were played up to that level the feat would allow him to increase his WBL, which is proven in paragraph one above, it is almost certainly unfair to not give him some kind of benefit for having the feat.
Except the first paragraph is not related to the second. The first paragraph has to do with established PCs, not PCs brought in after 1st level, which is what the second paragraph is about.
EDIT: re Tyki: And no I don't read "ordinary gear" or to "budget gear" ... in other words the word gear to mean crafting materials. Gear is quite definitely listed items you purchase, acquire or have on you ... crafting materials generally aren't (unless its an expensive spell component or masterwork weapon, which is entirely different).
Tyki11 wrote: "Ordinary Gear" on the other hand, can be counted as "crafting materials".
Which I could spend 10% on by default, if that is used, note it says "Table 12-4 can be used to budget gear." emphasis on Can.
Also it says that a wizard could spend gear differently. So it's already shaky text to base anything on, as it firstly suggests to be optional, secondly it says "It's ok to change this."
Secondly, it still seems to boil down to it being okey to break the WBL with Rich Parents trait, and after game starts with crafting (note that low level firearms ammo is more expensive than low lvl scrolls), but not before.
I find it funny that you're ok with a rich parents gunslinger/holy gun who has the WBL of a 2.5th character.
(Did I mention he can make bullets more expensive than 1st level scroll at a faster pace?)
But the wizard making fifteen 1st level scrolls saving whole 187.5gp is a bad, bad, wbl breaking man.
But hey, the gunslinger/holy gun does it Raw, so it's all good.
Oooh fun question out of this for mdt and the others who say no crafting. If your level 10 character had the Rich Parents trait do you give him WBL+900 yes or no?
Yes. He took a trait that says 'you get more gold at start', for all intents and purposes. Now, theoretically it should be 900 - starting wealth roll added to the WBL if he comes in at 10th level. But that's a pain to calculate, so I'd just add 900 to his WBL.
Note that the feat specifically says increases his funds. This is not the inferred increase some people want to add to the crafting feats.
In the end I don't understand why the WBL gets so nitpicked when it seems such common sense. You have one of two situations with it:
1. DM: "Hmm... I wonder if I'm giving the players the appropriate amount of loot for their encounters .... oh I can check that."
2. DM: "Welcome to the game Fred, well the characters are level 10, so gen up one of that level. You have X gp to spend, be sure to spread it out amongst different items, not all on one .... <DM sees Fred's eyes gleam> ... and no, you can't use that gold to craft, just purchase gear."
End of story.
Huh, fun fact, or kinda not.
Rich Parents specifies you get 900 cash.
Cash is gold/silver/copper pieces, which is different than Starting Wealth.
You can't spend the 900 pregame? As it's gold/silver/copper pieces. You pick starting gear by using starting wealth.
If you don't have time to craft anything, you don't have time to spend the bonus gold/silver/copper pieces.
But he has no bag of holding...and he's running with a pouch-scrap that- a Sack of Gold. Happy bandits are happy. Raw is so fun :D
Edit:
Fred flips the table like a real man, clearly upset that his feat which would give him 5 bonus scrolls and save him 62.5gp is frowned upon.
Behind him, Bob the gunslinger giggles madly, polishing his 2.3k masterwork blunderbuss while wondering what pants will best fit with his 400gp masterwork chainshirt and wondering what to do with the rest of his 600gp(+ -).
He is of course laughing behind the other people who have between 70-175gp to spend, but didn't know, want, or think of taking rich parents trait or go gunslinger, he raises the APL, get's everyone killed, all while being right on all accounts when it comes to Raw.
Nice try Tyki.
PRD wrote:
Rich Parents: You were born into a rich family, perhaps even the nobility, and even though you turned to a life of adventure anyway, you enjoy a one-time benefit to your initial finances—your starting cash increases to 900 gp.
So, I guess if you wanted to be really stickler about it, if you take the trait at level 10, your starting wealth is, let's see... 900 gp. :)
Note it says 'increases initial finances' to 900, that is, starting cash is increased to 900. Go look up the die rolls on starting cash. It's a tiny bit different than WBL for higher than 1st level.
First thread people argued that it said gold, then that it said wealth, and that it could be spent differently or couldn't, and that you could keep gold, or not.
Now there's a third word entering, and you're all cool beans about it?
Well, by RAW, it's starting wealth. Not gold. Not finances. Not Cash.
Reading "Intitial finances/starting cash." as "Starting wealth." is Rai.
*sigh*
No it doesn't. Here, here's the quoted passage.
Equipment Chapter wrote:
Wealth And Money
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.
So, the trait is talking about adding to this, WBL is a different thing and it applies to characters starting above 1st. Nothing in that paragraph says you can craft with those funds either, it just says you can spend it on weapons, armor, and other equipment. Not crafting. :)
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
The other half involves a lot of yelling, screaming, blood, begging, crying, terror, and other bits of insanity.
*yawn*
And we're back to Wealth. Which magically mixes with a non-common term Finances and cash.
So you can mix Initial Finances/Cash to match with Starting Wealth/Gold, each a different term (finances is only worded in rich parents and performance, which is a proffession skill.)
But mixing Other Equipment with Crafted Goods(by pc) is no-no.
If you're gonna selectively mix terms, there's no way to argue over or around.
mdt wrote:
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
The other half involves a lot of yelling, screaming, blood, begging, crying, terror, and other bits of insanity. Actually, it involves a good amount of blue and red lasers.
blackbloodtroll wrote: mdt wrote:
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
The other half involves a lot of yelling, screaming, blood, begging, crying, terror, and other bits of insanity. Actually, it involves a good amount of blue and red lasers. Note, that's variable by reality.
I reject your reality though, and substitute my own. :)
It's a much better reality, everyone knows my name. :)
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote: This is a thread mostly intended to be an FAQ-catch for the thread "Scribe Scroll with starting gold." (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4wuc?Scribe-Scroll-with-starting-gold) The issue has been debated at length there, yet feel free to debate any other points here, of course.
My question is: In the context of crafting, should a crafted item's full market value be held against the WBL to determine their wealth or is crafting meant to allow a character exceed their WBL per RAW?
.
Wealth by level is your intended starting gear the stuff you should have for an average campaign of a given APL. I never ever allow people to break the chart by crafting. I've heard the arguments for the otherwise and they're all trumped by campaign balance. If you want to allow a reward for taking such a feat, you can do that by allowing the player to make a couple of custom items. You count their full value in the WBL though.
Magic is one of the easiest ways for a game to go out of control. Don't yield to a player's desire to start that process before you even get to the gate.
No it's not.
At lowlvl, Rich Parents + Holy Gun/gunslinger are the best, they throw Apl, wbl, and Cr out the window.
Later on, almost any class with adamantine weapons can make shishkebab of anything they don't like. The easiest way for a game to spin out of control is when the Dm can't keep the Pc's in line. Be it crafting, time stop shenanigans, or wielding an adamantite hammer.
Somewhere it was explained that WBL was the value of the things that an adventurer had with them at a certain level, minus the expenditures of potions and wands and the like.
The problem comes in when we contrast two different kinds of players, one that uses expendables a lot and one that doesn't really use them. The assumption is that the adventurers lived out their lives up to the point that the campaign is starting, and somehow ended up at that amount of money in WBL (which was pointed out several times that it is a guideline).
So maybe that caster got craft wondrous items at level 4 and made some things until level 6, while the paladin was going out on missions that might've not been at his power level (level 4 paladin vs a few level 1 commoner thieves in separate incidents). They both use their time in their own way and earned their money in their own way, but they still end up in the same place, level 6 with X amount of money. So WBL from this standpoint is not affected by craft feats.
But on a more gameplay approach, casters already have the power to kick the plot in the especially painful place. They don't especially need anymore boosting. I mean, martial classes already need all the magic items that they can get to even stand a slim chance against a decent caster. Imagine that caster having twice the number of magical items defending him, augmented by his own spells. (Actually, maybe even more magical items, since he doesn't really have to buy weapons).
--------
Personally, the point of craft feats for me is to spread the caster love with the party. If the party wizard has an epic confrontation with one of his rivals, the collateral damage is probably going to be immense and he doesn't want his poor little friends without any cosmic power to get squished.
LazarX wrote: Wealth by level is your intended starting gear the stuff you should have for an average campaign of a given APL. I never ever allow people to break the chart by crafting. I've heard the arguments for the otherwise and they're all trumped by campaign balance. If you want to allow a reward for taking such a feat, you can do that by allowing the player to make a couple of custom items. You count their full value in the WBL though.
Magic is one of the easiest ways for a game to go out of control. Don't yield to a player's desire to start that process before you even get to the gate.
That's how you GM at your table. I'm going for dev intent here. :D
RAW: You get gp to start. Craft says you can spend 1/3 or 1/2 the gp of an item to make it.
There are obvious "unbalancing" effects but I want to know if it was intended just as there are mechanics out there that break rules all the time. Got a spell that can't affect a creature of a certain type? Take a metamagic feat. Don't want to go unconscious when you go neg hit points? Take a certain class, or feat too, iirc. Want more gold at level 1 than the chart provides? Take rich parents. Don't want to wait to travel? Teleport is there to cure what ails you. Don't want to ever die of old age? The monk class and several other ways to do that.
The game is full of exceptions to the rules. I'm just curious if crafting is the exception to the WBL guideline.
Everyone has their own connotation of this. Yes, WBL is a guideline that should be adhered to to maintain balance in a campaign. When a characters wealth grows, it can, but not always, increase a parties APL. In game application of the craft feats inherently increase a characters wealth from a mechanics view. It's when you have a player that is more benevolent than the munchkin power gamer that keeps this level. This still doesn't change a game mechanic. The argument on allowing a character past level one to join a game with a few crafted items is that he has been crafting in his adventures up until the point he joins the new campaign. The wealth gain is proven during an in game scenario based solely on mechanics and by logical deduction the same could have been done prior to joining the current campaign. Yes, he also could have been mugged and his wealth brought back into the WBL limits, or his items broken, or he used more consumables than your average bear. But then again maybe he didn't use consumables and maintained all of his items and was charming enough to avoid the mugger or had a bodyguard to protect him. It's all GM discretion.
I don't think anyone has been arguing to let the munchkins have double the WBL. Most of us are looking to have people recognize that craft feats inherently affect your wealth entirely due to having the cost of the items you want reduced by half if you make them yourselves. In theory this stays relative because you sell item A at half cost and create item B of equal value to A. In practice this doesn't work since wealth distribution is equal to all players and includes gold, which the crafter can use to gain a higher wealth than the rest of the party if they are non crafters. Even to exclude gold as treasure found, items are less likely to be what players want all of the time. Sooner or later items are sold and gold is distributed evenly to players that a crafter, again, can make a better use of than other players.
The other argument is on the value of the craft feats. What is the benefits of crafting. The feat allows you to craft any item you'd like and to do so at one half the base value. Again, mechanics show us that with something costing half price plus time, a crafter could have any item he wants at half the cost of any non-crafter for the cost of time to himself.
Ex. 1 If treasure is split equally and not all of it is useful to each character, the crafter is able to maintain his current wealth where non crafters lose half the items market value upon selling it and have no way to make that up.
Ex. 2 If treasure is split equally and all of it is useful to each character except the crafter, the crafter is able to maintain his current wealth where the non crafters don't have to because they got what they wanted or close to it. This diminishes the value of getting what you want with craft feats by giving people what they want even if they don't have them. It also makes the crafter have to work harder than anyone else to maintain his own WBL.
Ex. 3 If treasure is split equally and all of it is useful to each character, everyone will have equal wealth and you've effectively eliminated the need of a craft feat.
Ex. 4 If treasure is split equally and all ofit is useless to each character, everyone sells everything, splits the money, and the crafter is the only one capable of getting back to the original wealth value where the rest are at one half.
This is all under the assumption that wealth is split equally, and in practice it never is as players are willing to let the fighter keep that +10 greatsword of awesomeness when they only get 100000gp each. But this strays from the game mechanics by adding a human element which means YMMV. Empathy is also what GM's hope for to help keep things within reason.
The problem will always remain that a crafter is better equipped to use money better than non crafters. If you don't allow him to gain wealth, you've limited the feat to just getting an item you want. If you give others the items they want and don't give the crafter items to keep his wealth relative to the party, you've limited the feat by removing the potential wealth gained and the benefit of getting the items you want. You've also made the crafter entirely dependant on his craft feats to keep his wealth relative to everyone else. You'll also need to slow things down to allow him to craft the items to keep pace.
I see all the rules and guidelines you guys present, but as a game mechanic this is undeniable. If crafting can net you money in game, then its just as likely it netted you money pre-game. For a post level 1 you have to use GM discretion as to how much potential a character had. The very last line of the second quotation about table 12-4 gives an example where the values listed can vary. No, it doesn't list craft materials as a specific section but that's because not everyone crafts and the value wouldn't be applicable to everyone and therefore wasted. These materials are magical by nature and I would assume they would fall in the other magic items section but they could just as likely be in the ordinary gear section.
quote wrote:
Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is
expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table
assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games
might award only half this value, while high-fantasy
games might double the value. It is assumed that some of
this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure
(such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less
useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can
be purchased.
James Jacobs has already said that Golarion is slightly above standard fantasy for magic in another thread. This entire paragraph and the one that follows, which is directly affected by the first, is based off of assumptions that you've used consumables and sold items for half value. Crafting entirely mitigates the latter of those comments. So now a crafter must have used some ridiculous amount of consumables for WBL to hold true. If the second paragraph wasn't affected by the first WBL has absolutely no bearing to the second and you have no idea what those percentages are a percent of.
I think the other ingredient required for crafting -time- is the clue to the WBL debate.
Crafting takes time (not much at lower levels, but a great deal at higher levels). If you are going to allow a character with crafting feats to spend time crafting, it is only fair that you would allow characters with profession, perform or other skills and feats to retroactively benefit as well in the negative time-line. If you can have twice the amount of stuff because you crafted for a week, another character could have been out power-attacking monsters and generating gold.
Nothing in the game allows you to ignore that crafting takes time, and you don't get to spend time doing things before the game starts. You can come up with all kinds of back stories about how you spent all your time crafting, or are the king of your own kingdom, but you still start with WBL worth of stuff on Day 1 of the adventure.
With all that said, WBL is a balancing concept like CR or starting point buy. I recall one of the Paizo folks saying that they enjoy playing with 2X WBL, while I enjoy a game with half WBL. If everyone is ~equal, and the GM adjusts the game, it doesn't really matter.
One more thing: Does anyone really need to make their higher level caster MORE powerful then the rest of the party? Do you need twice as much as the non-crafters to stay relevant and have fun?
EDIT:
Khrysaor wrote: "Most of us are looking to have people recognize that craft feats inherently affect your wealth entirely due to having the cost of the items you want reduced by half if you make them yourselves. " I have seen a few characters heavily use scribe scroll to the point where they quickly fall behind WBL. The craft feats can be used in so many different ways that you can't claim they automatically increase wealth compared to a non-crafter.
@Fergie:
This thread came into being as a response to the 'Can I craft scrolls with starting money' thread. It seemed simple enough. A wizard with an average of 70gp after spending his money on equipment would have enough money to craft three 1st level scrolls being 37.5gp of his starting wealth. That question and example are legitimate and not game breaking by any means. It just inspired fear in some people to mention power gamers and how they could manipulate the game if you allowed this. Since a power gamer could manipulate this, some people thought there needed to be a ruling that would just disallow everyone from being able to do it to solve the lingering power gamer threat. Those of us arguing for the crafting just felt that penalizing everyone based off of power gamers is heavy handed and would then need to be applicable to every facet of power gaming for fairness. Why would you stop power gamers in one aspect and not in all aspects. It doesn't eliminate power gamers unless you eliminate everything that is power gaming. Controlling power gamers was deemed by most of us a GM issue. Other's felt that GM's shouldn't have to deal with this and the dev's should address it.
Fergie wrote: One more thing: Does anyone really need to make their higher level caster MORE powerful then the rest of the party? Do you need twice as much as the non-crafters to stay relevant and have fun? No you don't need to have more power than others to have fun but that's the power gaming aspect of increasing WBL. Some of my crafting characters have slightly higher wealth than the party but those items are things like multiple campfire beads, a bag of holding tier 4, a flying carpet big enough for the party. These items all add to a characters wealth but they don't necesarilly make the character more powerful than anyone else. In fact you'd tend to have less resources than the rest of the party for enhancing your characters main skillset.
Like my example stated earlier with 2 exact same fighters in build/feats with magic items being the only difference, the one that has the +3 weapon vs the guy that has a +1 weapon, a bag of holding, a campfire bead, and a griffon statuette, the guy with the +3 weapon is more of a combat adversary than the other but they other guy has his uses. Since CR is generally based off of combat, there is now a seperation between the two. Maybe not enough to warrant a full CR increase from the +3 weapon but having a 10% increased chance to hit something over someone else is substantial.
Edit:
Fergie wrote: EDIT:
Khrysaor wrote:
"Most of us are looking to have people recognize that craft feats inherently affect your wealth entirely due to having the cost of the items you want reduced by half if you make them yourselves. "
I have seen a few characters heavily use scribe scroll to the point where they quickly fall behind WBL. The craft feats can be used in so many different ways that you can't claim they automatically increase wealth compared to a non-crafter.
This is only the case with crafting low end scrolls and potions. The feats still have potential to scale and keep relevant.
@Fergie:
This this and more this. I didn't even think to put up that point last night. The time factor of crafting can't be thrown out the window, which means the above 1st level character be gen'ed can't incorporate crafting into the chargen process.
Thank you Fergie.
It also helps to balance the fact that any class with a spellbook has the added exxpense of scribing spells to that.
Aaron Webber wrote: @Fergie:
This this and more this. I didn't even think to put up that point last night. The time factor of crafting can't be thrown out the window, which means the above 1st level character be gen'ed can't incorporate crafting into the chargen process.
Thank you Fergie.
Where does it say the timeline is day 1 for any new character generated after level 1? Level 1 is the only level where a timeline could be considered day 1 as that's the start of an adventuring career. Assuming a timeline of day 1 for post level 1 implies a character has had no experiences prior to starting an adventure. Except he's not level 1, he has had experiences, and he has a backstory that existed regardless of the campaign he's joined, he has X days under his belt where he adventured, gained experience, found treasures, and formed the character he is to be before he joins your new campaign.
It's like bringing a character from one campaign into the next if the other players choose to make new characters. Does the guy who kept his character suddenly give up wealth if he's ahead of WBL? Does he magically attain more items if he was behind the WBL? No and no. He maintains his current status and the other players get characters that, according to WBL, could be ahead or behind him.
If you craft mundane items at 1/3 their market value and sell them at 1/2 their market value, and all Craft skills can be used untrained, why not just let everyone start with 33% more wealth? They can just be merchants in their downtime. Nothing in the rules says they can't.
Too address the time issue, I already posted on this in the 'Scribe Scrolls with starting wealth' thread based off of someone saying it would take too long for a level 12 to have crafted all of that.
Khrysaor in the 'Scribe Scrolls with Starting Wealth' thread wrote:
Let's think reasonably here. According to WBL;
Level 3 to 4 - 3000gp - 3 days to craft
Level 4 to 5 - 4500gp - 4.5 days to craft
Level 5 to 6 - 5500gp - 5.5 days to craft
Level 6 to 7 - 7500gp - 7.5 days to craft
Level 7 to 8 - 9500gp - 9.5 days to craft
Level 8 to 9 - 13000gp - 13 days to craft
Level 9 to 10 - 16000gp - 16 days to craft
Level 10 to 11 - 20000gp - 20 days to craft
Level 11 to 12 - 26000gp - 26 days to craft
I'd say it's fairly reasonable that you can find this much time to craft in between levels as not all of it is being done in the field. If it was it would quadruple these times or double if you took the +5 DC to craft faster. In truth it would balance somewhat as crafting faster in downtime would actually halve these times. Obviously your wealth isn't just gold coins in treasure chests you've found along the way but it wasn't entirely random items that you sell for half market value to craft back to the limitations people are implying the WBL chart to be.
As your wealth scales with your levels these times could become a little more lengthy in the field but with finding items along the way you don't have the full values to craft with anyway.
Bob_Loblaw wrote: If you craft mundane items at 1/3 their market value and sell them at 1/2 their market value, and all Craft skills can be used untrained, why not just let everyone start with 33% more wealth? They can just be merchants in their downtime. Nothing in the rules says they can't. 1/6th isn't 33%, it's 16.7%. That's all you gain from mundane crafting. 2/6th market value cost and sell at 3/6th market value is 1/6th profit. The problems with mundane crafted items, as mentioned in the other thread as well, is the amount of time to do this which doesn't make this remotely viable. You also don't have to use feats to obtain these numbers which is more the argument. Continually bringing up something that doesn't pertain to the argument doesn't help the argument. But if you'd like to insist, mundane crafting practiced in game will get you a better profit:loss ratio than magic crafting which means crafting earns a player money. Unfortunately factoring in time reduces the potential profit gained vs the magic enchanting feat line.
If you want to go back to arguing about level 1 characters again when we've all moved on to post level 1 as Aaron so eloquently put it;
Aaron Webber wrote: ...and there seems to be some premise or idea that wealth granted post lvl 1 as indicated by the WBL chart WBL has nothing to do with level 1.
What if you're an elf that lives for hundreds of years? How much time do you have now?
What I find interesting is that most of the arguing is basically this:
"Crafting doesn't let you exceed WBL by much"
"Yes it does but as GM you should make sure that it doesn't exceed your WBL by much."
This is essentially the same as the other thread. The only real difference is that one group of us thinks that the book makes it clear and the other group doesn't. The funny thing is that everyone is in agreement that all the characters should have "roughly equal" wealth and that the GM needs to use his best judgment to flat out tell the players they don't get to abuse the system.
Since we're all in agreement, what really is the point of contention?
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