Let me help you out. Assuming I have access to the materials and the time to craft, crafting says I can make my item. Unless you can show me a rule that says "no, you can't" then it stands that I can.
Buri in my game yes thats gonna keep you in my 10-15% range. if you wanted to have 15k in gear and 35k to make a 70k item then no as i feel you are no longer roughly equal to your fellow party members who cannot make such an item.
Buri in my game yes thats gonna keep you in my 10-15% range. if you wanted to have 15k in gear and 35k to make a 70k item then no as i feel you are no longer roughly equal to your fellow party members who cannot make such an item.
Can you show me an explicit rule to support your statement?
Yes rule zero if you have to have one.
Searching the PRD for "rule zero" yielded no results. Quote, please.
Let me help you out. Assuming I have access to the materials and the time to craft, crafting says I can make my item. Unless you can show me a rule that says "no, you can't" then it stands that I can.Crafting says that you can craft an item, which is not the same thing as whether or not you can keep that item.
I guess I missed the clause to crafting that states that if you craft an item that makes your total gear value exceed your WBL you lose that item once it's complete.
If you insist on now simply being argumenitive for the sake of it.
Craft all the magic items you want.
Since no rules forbids it though
Can i as a rogue decide to steal 1 million gp worth of goods before the game starts and have my double wealth as well.
If not please show me the rule that supports you position.
If you insist on now simply being argumenitive for the sake of it.
Craft all the magic items you want.
Since no rules forbids it though
Can i as a rogue decide to steal 1 million gp worth of goods before the game starts and have my double wealth as well.
If not please show me the rule that supports you position.
Nothing in the rules state actions previous to character creation. That said, character creation says each character gets a certain amount of gp. Crafting provides one possible application using gold. Hence, the crafter can potentially double the value of gear he can have based on starting gold.
That's not under the crafting skill. Crafting is about making stuff (making has nothing to do with your actual wealth). To look for the rules on your wealth, look at WBL.
Nothing in the WBL table nor the following paragraphs state you lose any gear that happens to put you over the amount listed.
Searching the PRD for "rule zero" yielded no results. Quote, please."the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules"
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html
While that is so, the GM is also encouraged to speak with and work with players. Dropping your fist down like the hammer of Thor is not doing that. The book actually encourages you to research questions you're unfamiliar with and to take actions to make up for wrong rulings, hence the GM can be wrong, as soon as possible. Thus, while the final arbiter, the relationship is one of working together instead of the dictator and the dictated.
If nothing in the rules state actions previous t character creation, than the act of stealing is just as valid as the act of crafting when both are done before character creation
Crafting before character creation is not valid. However, the crafting can potentially simply withhold all gold until play starts and begin crafting at that time. If the Rogue has sufficient skills to sneak into and cart out 1 million gold, that is perfectly allowed as well.
When added to rule 0 (which I referenced in an earlier post), the GM is free to adjudicate WBL to include having PCs lose any gear that happens to put them over the amount listed.
If the GM does so in a manner that is overbearing and does not allow discussion on the matter then he is, in fact, in violation of the very rule that makes him the arbiter of the rules.
Whether the PC can craft after the game starts depends on the pace of the game and what is happening in it. You need time to craft. The GM's plot may not offer that time. You also need resources, which you may not have.
We're assuming infinite resources and time in order to facilitate a doubling of wealth since that's what people are so anxious about. If that, in fact, is not the case then people have been anxious for nothing and the very thing I have been saying for the last 780 posts has been the one in practice all along. Which scenario is in play here?
I've seen far too many posters (and players) complain about the GM being "overbearing" because he wouldn't let them have their wand of nuclear destruction.
I care little for claims that the GM is being overbearing. IF he is, then the problem will correct itself as players will seek a different GM.
Again, we're talking about rule zero, the very rule that let's the GM make these sorts of decisions. You can not simply deny the very rule that let's you deny the rule. (Odd, I know.)
You don't need infinite resources and infinite time in order to get double the resources.
You're not answering the question. Do I have the resources and time to double my wealth which is what has people so antsy about or don't I?
Invoking Rule 0 doesn't really deal with the issue at hand. If Rule 0 is always the solution, then there is no need for any other rules since everything will come back to that.
Invoking Rule 0 doesn't really deal with the issue at hand. If Rule 0 is always the solution, then there is no need for any other rules since everything will come back to that.
Agreed.
Agreed, there's no need for any other rules.
The other rules are a convenience.
Still no answer to my question?
You don't need infinite resources and infinite time in order to get double the resources.You're not answering the question. Do I have the resources and time to double my wealth which is what has people so antsy about or don't I?
If you play a longer lived race, you would be able to argue that you do. If the GM is going to draw a line in the sand, why not make it a clearly defined line? In this case, WBL. There is no mistaking the value and no playing with the numbers.
Once the game begins, the wealth will fluctuate and it is ok if crafting has a small impact. Once the game starts, things like this are more art than science.
If you play a longer lived race, you would be able to argue that you do. If the GM is going to draw a line in the sand, why not make it a clearly defined line? In this case, WBL. There is no mistaking the value and no playing with the numbers.
Once the game begins, the wealth will fluctuate and it is ok if crafting has a small impact. Once the game starts, things like this are more art than science.
Oh, totally. However, they seemed like they wanted to play a game so I tried to play but they stopped throwing the ball back. :'( I was having so much fun, too.
Nothing in the rules state actions previous to character creation. That said, character creation says each character gets a certain amount of gp. Crafting provides one possible application using gold. Hence, the crafter can potentially double the value of gear he can have based on starting gold.
You appear to have a vested interest in this discussion (you did start it, I suppose.) Perhaps you would answer the question that the previous posted bailed on.
If you look at any given character progression, the grand total of wealth that has passed through your hands from 1-20 will be more than 880,000gp (assuming standard wbl). Between buying, selling, loss, usage, theft, or what-have-you, it strikes me as highly unlikely that my statement is wrong. You might (should) have about 880k worth of wealth at some point in your 20th level, but you'll have seen more than than.
Character creation doesn't care about the losses, the theft, the gains, or the SOURCE of those gains (or losses). All it describes is a way to make a character with the end result. I contend that all that matters at this point is the value of the item (and as I described, the source is irrelevant to the value). If the source is irrelevant to the value (found,created,bought), then how does any crafter justify to themselves and their group that the things they could create pre-game have a lower value than equivalent items acquired in any other fashion?
You appear to have a vested interest in this discussion (you did start it, I suppose.) Perhaps you would answer the question that the previous posted bailed on.
If you look at any given character progression, the grand total of wealth that has passed through your hands from 1-20 will be more than 880,000gp (assuming standard wbl). Between buying, selling, loss, usage, theft, or what-have-you, it strikes me as highly unlikely that my statement is wrong. You might (should) have about 880k worth of wealth at some point in your 20th level, but you'll have seen more than than.
Character creation doesn't care about the losses, the theft, the gains, or the SOURCE of those gains (or losses). All it describes is a way to make a character with the end result. I contend that all that matters at this point is the value of the item (and as I described, the source is irrelevant to the value). If the source is irrelevant to the value (found,created,bought), then how does any crafter justify to themselves and their group that the things they could create pre-game have a lower value than equivalent items acquired in any other fashion?
That I do. While I agree that is likely what it should mean it's not what it does mean. The entire thing really hinges on the fact everyone is awarded a number of gold pieces. I can sympathize with the devs about wanting to give everyone a fair shake. However, as it stands, crafting is what it is and describes what happens and works based off gp with materials really being an after thought. Even if materials are available, if you don't have the gold, you're not getting them. Likewise, I understand the position that they didn't write anything more specific so as to not box in how starting gold can be spend. As I said, I'm not asking about woulda/coulda/shoulda. I'm simply asking if the conceptual intent behind crafting was to let him have more/better stuff than the non-crafter. I think everyone here can look and see that's a clear possibility. I'm going after intent, though.
Guys! GUYS!
It's really quite simple. Ask the GM if he allows crafting during character creation. Then you abide by his answer or find a different game. Done.
It's extremely rude to bicker and debate about it as that rarely ever promotes fun for anyone in the group. Simply move on and try to have fun.
I've said it before and I've said it again: The rules are inconclusive and allow for all interpretations proposed in this thread. No developer has offered any input despite the large number of FAQ button presses, and they're not going to.
Do you know why? Because it's a matter of game style choice and is therefore a decision for that individual groups need to work out with input from the players and arbitration from the GM, not a decision for the developers to officiate.
You were the one who posted about my not having posted yet (like I should have posted sooner than I did). I'm under no such obligation to you. None of us are on these messageboards for the purpose of having a discussion/debate with you.
Oh boo hoo. Chill. If you don't want to discuss/debate the topic of the thread I created nothing is compelling you to keep posting here.
Guys! GUYS!
It's really quite simple. Ask the GM if he allows crafting during character creation. Then you abide by his answer or find a different game. Done.
It's extremely rude to bicker and debate about it as that rarely ever promotes fun for anyone in the group. Simply move on and try to have fun.
I've said it before and I've said it again: The rules are inconclusive and allow for all interpretations proposed in this thread. No developer has offered any input despite the large number of FAQ button presses, and they're not going to.
Do you know why? Because it's a matter of game style choice and is therefore a decision for that individual groups need to work out with input from the players and arbitration from the GM, not a decision for the developers to officiate.
You mean no epic debates?! Then I'll be sadpanda. :(
You mean no epic debates?! Then I'll be sadpanda. :(
By all means, debate it all you like, I was referring to being unnecessarily antagonistic against the GM within your group.
So, for true ridiculousness, my level 20 wizard build is complete. In short, I'm not even going to do the crafter version. Assuming epic point-buy, doubling WBL to suit I have 73k gp left over with starting at 1.7 mil gp.
Abilities are: 18, 25, 21, 35, 29, 18 (starting was 7, 14, 10, 24, 18, 7. max'd int to 20 and dex was at 13. leveling bonuses brought it up to starting numbers)
AC: 35, 22, 28
Saves: 16, 18, 26
Total SP: 280
HP: 165
Atk M: 14
Atk R: 17
CMB: 14
CMD: 31
Spec School: Evocation; Oppositions: Divination, Illusion
Init: +7
SR: 21 with +4 to overcome
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Evo), Heighten Spell, G Spell Focus, Spell Master, Max Spell, Quick Spell, Burn Spell, Spell Pen, G Spell Pen, Spell Perf (Contagious Flame), Spell Master, Additional Traits (Gifted Adept: Winds of Vengeance, Magic is Life), Weapon Focus (ray), Spell Mastery
Spells Known: All, 14, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8, 8
Spells Per Day: 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7
Gear: Headband of Mental Superiority, Belt of Physical Perfection, both +6, All +5 Tomes and Manuals, Cloak of Res +5, Amulet of Nat Armor +5, Mantle of Spell Resistance, Green Ioun Stone, Instant Fortess (couldn't resist), Ring of Prot +5, Ring of Elemental Command (fire), Bracers of Armor +8
Granted, I don't have all my gear slots filled. The crafter would. However, that's only 1 or two more pieces of gear. With 280 skill points, that's more than ample to divert to craft skills and still max other "iconic" skills. I was finding trouble where to put ranks there were so many. I would also have diverged a metamagic feat, eschew materials, and put a couple meta feats into the class bonus feats to make room for crafting feats. All in all. Crafting is not a game breaker. You'd probably have a million or so gp left over but all you're going to do there is maybe get all the spells. However, 73k gp is more than enough to get all the "nasty" ones with the specialized school, regardless of which one you took.
A wizard can learn every core spell with less than 65,000gp. I have spreadsheets that back it up.