Any reason why we don't have an arcane equivalent of the cleric ? Because it's like every time we get an arcane spellcaster with medium base attack bonus or better, it doesn't get a full spell progression; the bard and magus stop at 6 and the 3.5 duskblade stops at 5.
Look, I'm pretty sure that giving the wizard and sorcerer a medium BAB wouldn't be game-breaking, especially since it would benefical due to having more melee-touch and ranged-touch spells than the cleric.
Because arcane spells are better than divine.
JiCi,
An Eldritch Knight basically emulates what you describe. What you're saying is you'd like a base class that approximates an Eldritch knight?
Yeah... kind of... except that it would be a class, not a PrC, and it would be a medium BAB, not a full BAB. (I would like to keep balanced afterall). Like I said, a class like the sorcerer or wizard in terms of spell progression, but with a medium BAB.
See ? My problem is that a lot of arcane spells requires attack rolls... and both the wizard and the sorcerer have a mediocre bonus to hit... so where's the point ? There isn't even something to compensate, like adding your Int or Cha modifier to attack rolls with spells.
I would have expected the 3.5 Warmage to have medium BAB... but no, it's a slow progression...
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I was gonna say what Cheapy and TOZ said but I'll say it a bit differently instead:
Arcane spells are awesome. They're actually worth having.
Divine spells are sucky. With only a tiny handful of exceptions, Clr & Drd spells suck bum.
That's why Arcane spellcasters get no HP and no Skills and no BAB. Because their spells are so strong that everything else has to be pathetic just to balance it all out. ... Of course, it doesn't really balance it out after a few levels. By the time a Wizard reaches about Lvl 8 or 9, it is stronger than the other Classes -- and the higher the level the greater the separation between Wizard and the lesser Classes. (So a 20th Lvl Wizard would obliterate a party of 4 20th Lvl "lesser Classes.")
Meanwhile Cleric and Druid and Oracle suck even more than the lesser Classes making them even more lesserest.
Touch attacks don't need good to-hit. The highest you usually need to hit is 14. That isn't hard. At all.
A lot of sor/wiz spells that require attack rolls, require touch attack rolls. Huge difference between regular AC and touch AC. Go flip through the bestiaries and look at the differences between normal AC and touch AC, especially as levels increase. You'll note that regular AC tends to scale (in some respects) with level, but touch AC does not. Usually, touch AC is in the neighborhood of 10 or 15. That means, even without a boost from BAB, you can hit that target number pretty reliably. Invest a little Dex (good for Ref, Init and AC anyway) and those ranged touch attack (or finessed melee touch attacks) get even better.
In short, they don't need it.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
My problem is that a lot of arcane spells requires attack rolls... and both the wizard and the sorcerer have a mediocre bonus to hit... so where's the point ? There isn't even something to compensate, like adding your Int or Cha modifier to attack rolls with spells.
Casters need to make an attack roll vs the Touch AC. Touch AC is typically between 8 and 14, even at high levels. What do you need a 3/4 BAB progression for?
Now if you start talking about a feat that allows Int/Cha to be used for spell-based attack rolls... that's worth talking about.
...though why you would neglect Dex as the go-to stat is a little beyond me. It's AC. It's Initiative. It usually lets you hit things with your spells.
You could probably pattern the spell selection off the magus list (no summons or utility) and keep spells/day below a comparable wizard's. Actual class features would be minimal. Start off with simple weapons and no armor. If you wanted a better selection of weapons and armor use, you would have to burn your feats or dip into another class. Also, no casting in armor like a magus. The best you could hope for would be arcane armor feats. Not sure about hit die. d6 or d8 (tops). You might even limit the number of schools the class could take (two to start and gaining a school every few levels) without ever gaining access to all schools.
Magus can cast in light armor, I think. At least at level 7 they can cast in medium, and at level 13,heavy.
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I think the real question is why are there fullcasters of any type who are not low BAB.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would suggest the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer (link) is a quite workable cleric BAB arcane class. Just don't give him a bloodline.
I would suggest the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer (link) is a quite workable cleric BAB arcane class. Just don't give him a bloodline.
Wow, totally forgot about that one...
Would it be broken if the bloodlines remained ?
Just stretch out the Eldritch Knight. Give him a 3/4 BAB, 18 levels of spell progression as a Wizard, and give them 5 bonus feats. I wouldn't be opposed to no arcane failure in light armor above level 5 or 7 something like that. Give them a bonded object, since familiar doesn't normally advance with EK. Don't let them have a specialty school or anything like that, helps to keep the spell slots down.
The problem is that it makes the Wizard obsolete. You need to water it down more, something like bump up the really nice spells a level or two. Like someone said above no summons or some of the really nice utility spells. I would suggest that you give it the wizard spell slots, but have it more like a sorcerer, with a very limited spells known. This helps to reduce their utility, since a Wizard with a little time to prepare can destroy just about anything but a Sorc has to do with the spells he knows.
Since you are worried about touch attack spells, why not just replace all bonus feats with weapon training (rays, ranged / melee touch)?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would suggest the 3.5 Battle Sorcerer (link) is a quite workable cleric BAB arcane class. Just don't give him a bloodline.Wow, totally forgot about that one...
Would it be broken if the bloodlines remained ?
That's debatable. Seems to me you would at least pull some of them. Pulling the 1st level and 9th level bloodline powers might work.
I have done a straight conversion of the battle sorcerer for Pathfinder here master arminas's battle sorcerer. Well, it is mostly a straight across the board conversion. Maybe this is what you guys really wanted. Hope that this helps!
Master Arminas
The battle sorc was fairly good. lose a spell known, and lose a spell per level, but gain light armor prof, and medium bab.
I use it more than I have ever used Sorc in 3.5.
I think the bloodlines would be okay keeping them, since you sac a huge amount of spell power for it.
Maybe since direct damage spells are crappy compared to other arcane spells, we could get a warmage clone with medium progression and medium armor and maybe just evocation and divination spells from the sorcerer with full caster progression.
Actually, there is the alchemist, and the magus. Both cast arcane spells, and both have medium BAB. In fact, the magus specializes in touch attack spells, and is better at them then a wizard.
Full Spellcasters = up to level Nine spells, Alchemist and Magus don't get that.
The spell list would have to be properly balanced. Cleric spells are more support and utility than offense.
+1
Yeah, not only do the alchemist and magus not have full spell progression, I also dislike them. Both have mechanics I personally find tedious, and I dont especially like the fluff/style either. Just not my thing.
The spell list would have to be properly balanced. Cleric spells are more support and utility than offense.+1
Actually.. I'd be incline to disagree.
Yes, clerics have some support/utility spells. But so do arcane casters.
Clerics are also quite capable of dishing out damage.. Red dragons? Screw them! Cast divine magic, cause wounds and the like.
We are surrounded by the undead? Channel energy - positive, hurtful. Surrounded by the living? Channel Energy - Negative, hurtful. (Versatile channeling)
A built cleric can be a bastion of pain and destruction. Just because people tend to make them into sissy supportists, doesn't mean that is all they are limited too.
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Regardless, the spell list was designed to be less flashy and more focused on healing, which is why clerics got that d8 and 3/4 BAB and armored casting. They get ranged options later and rely more on touch range spells that require them to be in melee. What damaging spells they get increase in damage slower and cap at fewer dice that arcane spells do. Check the section about designing new spells for proof.
In any event, my point was that the spell list of a d8/average BAB full arcane caster would have to be balanced differently than a cleric or wizard's due to those considerations. Some people think medium BAB and full spell casting is too strong, regardless of what spells they can actually cast. I say that is ridiculous, and point out that a spell list of just prestidigitation is hardly too strong even if it was paired with full BAB. So spell list design has a big impact on a classes power.
Yes, you will generally find them in melee, as thats what cleric can do.
What damaging spells they get are much less likely to be immunity or resisted. A Wizard may be able to cast fire ball, but that doesn't mean anything when he fights a red dragon. Meanwhile a cleric could be running in with cause wounds/cure light and mow through any sort of enemy.
If that wasn't enough, they could summon the gods to crush enemies, go super sayan with divine power, amongst a number of other things.
I fail to see where Fireball is capped at less than 10 dice, which is wizards cap. Or flame strike that does 15d6 points of damage, half of which is a divine (there for bypasses most resistances).
What really makes casting and increased bab OP is versatility. When you give them the ability to fight, they become more versatile. in the hands of a sorc that really isn't that bad, but in the hands of a wizard, yes.
But to say that clerics get it because most people build them only to support is ridiculous. Clerics get it mostly because of legacy.. I can build a powerhouse cleric just as easily as I can build a total support wizard.
I never agreed with the idea clerics needed med BAB and a d8 because "the spell list is weaker". I do not agree with the idea it is weaker. It is different but not weak. The cleric is a very powerful class because it gets to much stuff really. And it gets to much stuff because they want to try and get you to play the walking band aid.
Honestly the cleric issue is never gonna be fixed as long as you need it to be a walking medkit. Channel was some help, but the issue lays in both healing spells being touch spells and Non-cleric types having no way to "heal"
So if it was up to me, the cleric would be poor BAB, d6, and could heal at range and pc's could regain Hp's without magic.Ok really I would make cleric/wizard the same class but thats another rant.
Most folks who claim it needs Med BAB and a D8 do.
Note that I never said the cleric spell list was weaker.
Yea, that was me.
Well it got it for 2 reasons. Legacy and so folks will play the band aid. But they made it a full 9 level caster when it really should have been a half caster, which is closer to what it was.
That why the "Standard Party" has both a Cleric and a Wizard/Sorcerer.
There ARE some nice divine spells, but it's a realy major stretch to claim that the divine list stands up to the arcane in sheer utility and power.
Cause every wizard would use skinsend
The list itself is of little importance, but the spells chosen. The spells chosen play a major part in character design and wether or not a class could in fact be OP.
A wizard with a hundred million BAB who only casts spells like magic missile and fireball is not really that much better than a wizard who casts those with low bab.
The design of the character and how gishy the character is.. that is what is important.
Regardless of how flexible the entire list is, its all about the few that spells that would ever be used on that list. If you aren't binding the cleric to being a band-aid, they can be very gishy. I mean after all, they already have every single spell on their list. None of this finding them and talking to cats to learn them.
An easy way to compare would be to look at 9th level Cleric and Wizard Spells. This is the pinnacle of power and should give a good idea on how the spell lists stack up. Limiting to the CRB, just to reduce the work.
Energy Drain: 2d4 Neg levels is nice, and needing to make 2d4 fort saves is pain, BUT Wizards get it too so a wash
Etherealness: See Astral Projection. It's nice but it also has limited utility. Wizard gets it.
Gate: Nice, can be quite powerful when used properly. Again Wizard Gets it.
Heal, Mass: Fantastic, their best spell so far. Also they are the only class that get's this spell. No sharing with all the other mini-healers, this is for big boys only. Only downside is max 30ft range.
Implosion: Super nice. Strait up 10 dmg/lvl, no dice rolling here so 200 damage per round. Only downside is you can only use this on each creature once. SO if you are attacked by a group of powerful creatures this is great, but even if only one BBEG it's still pretty nice.
Miracle: can dublicate any lvl 8 cleric spell or lower or any other lvl 7 spell or lower w/o cost, nice. The section w/ 25k is ok but really no better than wish.
Soul Bind: wizard gets it.
Storm of Vengance: not bad, but you have to concentrate for 10 rounds to get the full effect, so that's 10 rounds you're not casting another spell.
Summon Monster IX: Wizard gets it and his list isn't limited by his Alignment
True Resurrection: Cleric's bread and butter.
So out of the 10 9th lvl Cleric Spells from CRB there are only 5 the wizard doesn't get, and really 4 and 1/2 since Miracle overlaps with wish. And of those 5, 2 are healing, one is only ok, one is good and one is very good.
Mage's Disjunction: ultimate in Dispelling magic. Nice
Prismatic Sphere: tops in protection magic, again pretty nice.
Refuge: Cleric gets it 4 levels sooner, so point 1 for the cleric
Teleportation Circle: tops in travel magic, nice.
Foresight: Tops in divination, I would only give it a not bad.
Dominate Monster: so I can cast a spell and make the monster fight for me? Any monster? pretty nice.
Hold Monster, mass: so as long as they're all in a 30' radius I can take all the mobs out of the fight in one spell. very nice.
Power Word Kill: So as long as it has less than 100 hp it dies, no save? really? where do I sign up?
Crushing Hand: gotta hand it to Bigby, these are some nice spells.
Meteor Swarm: Not a bad blast spell, but not that great either, You can get up to 24d6 damage, but I'll take 10/lvl any day.
Shades: any lvl 8 conjuration spell, can you say king of the utility spells?
Weird: just an ok
Wail of the Banshee: pretty nice, and don't have to concentrate as with implosion.
Shapechange: so I can use any "[blank] shape" spell I want, and I can change shape up to 2000 times!! Sign me up, I would probably include the Vermin/Undead/Monstrous Humanoid spells from UM here too.
Wish: pretty nice and the only way to get the Inherent bonuses outside of the books.
Time Stop: aka ok I win now.
SO... I think the Wizard spell list, at least at 9th level, beats the cleric list around the block a few times. And I know that may of these spells can be accessed by a Cleric through his domains but that is only 2 spells tops. A Wizard gets all of them, and can cast 4 or 5 a day, maybe more. Any Int above a 28 gets a bonus 9th spell, and what level 17 wizard isn't at least close?
That seems more an issue with the wizard then the clerics spell list.
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Yes, clerics have some support/utility spells. But so do arcane casters.
Clerics are also quite capable of dishing out damage.. Red dragons? Screw them! Cast divine magic, cause wounds and the like.
- Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should be on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
- Clerics are best at spells that deal with alignment and have the best selection of curative and repair spells. They also have the best selection of information-gathering spells, such as commune and divination.
See also the damage cap charts on pg 36, which shows that divine damage spells should increase in damage at a slower rate and max out at a lower cap.
Again, the design of the spell list has a great impact on what characters you can build, and the power level of any character built with that class.
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I'd personally have no issue with a kit that essentially took away a "speciality" (even universal), still had 2 opposing schools, but had the following:
Treat your BAB progression as though you were a cleric of the same level. You may take combat feats in place of metamagic feats when a wizard is allowed to choose a feat.
At 6th level, you gain proficiency in any 3 martial weapons (I'd give them proficiency in all, but would make too easy of a cheat to Eldrich Knight).
It would be balanced; it wouldn't even be taken very often, just for people who like the idea of an Eldrich Knight "base class" this would do it for you. You give up the extra spell from having a specialty school and the "nice perk" (really nice for transmuters / diviners / teleporters).
But let's be honest, haste, enlarge person, color spray, black tentacles.... the wizard list is far better, offensive and defensive, than any cleric can hope for.
Yes, clerics have some support/utility spells. But so do arcane casters.
Clerics are also quite capable of dishing out damage.. Red dragons? Screw them! Cast divine magic, cause wounds and the like.- Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should be on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
- Clerics are best at spells that deal with alignment and have the best selection of curative and repair spells. They also have the best selection of information-gathering spells, such as commune and divination.See also the damage cap charts on pg 36, which shows that divine damage spells should increase in damage at a slower rate and max out at a lower cap.
Again, the design of the spell list has a great impact on what characters you can build, and the power level of any character built with that class.
I wish you would understand that fireball DOES NOTHING BETTER WITH A HIGHER BAB. Its still a bloodly fireball. Doesn't matter if a character with a million bab cast it. It is still 10d6 points of damage.
Also, I beg to differ even with their writing in the out dated book. Wizards now have the life school, and infernal healing. Clerics have the ability to summon massive power from the gods themselves in attacks like Divine Strike (or something like that ) that does 15d6 points of damage reflex half, Half of the damage is Divine, the other is fire.
Red Dragons do not resist divine. In fact very little does. That is the second thing you must understand. Clerics have access to profane/divine damage types that is not only rarely ever resist but is often vulnerable against.
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Well, if you refuse to consider how the spell lists, which have largely remained unchanged in Core, were designed, that's your choice.
And really, who cares about fireballs and red dragons? The first is a situationally useful spell, and the second is a creature with the [Awesome] subtype.
Hardly good examples for your point.