It makes it hard to create memorable and balanced fights against the most important iconic "boss monsters" of the game, namely powerful undead, devils/demons and dragons.
Take the demilich from bestiary 3, as it is presented in the paizo blog today.
This guy will vary dramatically in difficulty depending on if the party contains a paladin or not.
While it was always part of the game that certain party constellations were able to deal with certain foes more efficiently (clerics vs. undeads), I find it a bit much with the paladin, to be honest.
Every dragon, evil outsider and undead which is a "boss type" monster (and thus will not likely be encountered in hordes or even pairs) effectively has a reduced CR (by 2 or so) if a Paladin is in the party.
I do not like this.
Smite evil is already awesome without "ignore any DR". "Ignore any DR" just gives GMs a headache.
It makes it hard to create memorable and balanced fights against the most important iconic "boss monsters" of the game, namely powerful undead, devils/demons and dragons
There's all of the other defenses, like I'm flying and you're not, or mirror images, or fast healing, etc.
The Tarrasque is True Neutral, and one of the most memorable enemies I know of. Then again, those "boss monsters" are partly legendary only in how damned unfair they were, and the demilich is a good example of that with all the deadly abilities it has mixed with a mere CR 14.
The easiest protection against Smite Evil is simply not being evil. Yes, this may make things problematic for some boss monsters, but not for others. Take your average chaotic neutral illusionist. Imagine the paladin's expression when the "demon" fails to be smitten. Ditto the lich.
Even if the boss monster is evil itself, a few illusions still work wonders. The evil lich can use misdirection and a hat of disguise to make an iron golem look like him. Let the paladin waste his smites on an invalid target.
That's not a problem... that just means that while the demi lich may take some licks, the Paladin is it's first target for Devour Soul. And as far as Dragons go... They FLY. They Breathe They Crush. They'll still deliver the pain if properly packaged.
A paladin can use a bow no problem. Flying does not help.
Trikk,
I disagree. The paladin has lots of cool abilities besides smite evil. Lay on hands comes to mind. CHA bonus on all saves. Immune to fear / diseases. Channel. Divine bond (awe-some!). Mercy. Makes agreat party face (diplomacy / sense motive are class skills, he will have great CHA anyway).
I honestly do not think that he would need sth. "in return", if you took the "DR-piercing" of smite evil away to remain a viable class.
The easiest protection against Smite Evil is simply not being evil.
Yes, but the iconic baddies are bad. Surprise! ;)
The easiest protection against Smite Evil is simply not being evil. Yes, this may make things problematic for some boss monsters, but not for others. Take your average chaotic neutral illusionist. Imagine the paladin's expression when the "demon" fails to be smitten. Ditto the lich.
Even if the boss monster is evil itself, a few illusions still work wonders. The evil lich can use misdirection and a hat of disguise to make an iron golem look like him. Let the paladin waste his smites on an invalid target.
You seem to hate Paladins with a passion, given all your willingness to constantly misdirect them either at Neutral foes or at innocent bystanders.
Anyway, getting back on topic now. Hyla has a point with a great majority of iconic villains being Evil to the core (the standard Lich being one of the most notable ones). And that's how it should be in most cases, as EVIL is the threat in the world of Golarion instead of the church of Sarenrae plotting to bring the sun down on the world. Best examples are Rovagug's clergy who want to end EVERYTHING and Deskari the demon lord, who is literally the Bringer of Apocalypse.
The reward for playing one of the most stigmatized classes in the game is the ability to obliterate certain types of foes. Let's be honest, getting a Paladin to the point where they might encounter, say, a Demilich is a pretty mean feat. The thing still will have a decent chance of completely killing the Paladin in a standard action from up to 300 ft, then flying along on its merry way.
I really can't feel all that bad about the Paladin being able to burst that thing or any other major foes when you could just as easily throw a neutral foe and watch the Paladin flail impotently.
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If the party has to put up with the paladin for so long that it gets to the point where the main defense of critters is huge DR, I think the party deserves an easier fight.
The reward for playing one of the most stigmatized classes in the game is the ability to obliterate certain types of foes.
You mean "most foes".
And 90%+ of the boss monsters in official publications (have not checked, but am willing to bet on it).
And almost all of them go for the melee route.
Really? How do you know that?
My personal experience (constisting of two paladins) is 50/50. And the archerdin rocked more.
Maybe your games are swimming in paladins, but I haven't seen one in a year and the last one I saw was played by me.Even if you think paladins are fine with a nerf, would your players agree?
If you tell them that one class has had his iconic ability nerfed for no gain, then that is yet another reason not to play the class.
Those who do play it despite being nerfed will feel unfairly penalized whenever you face evil creatures and their damage is made irrelevant by the fighters and barbarians.
Well, we have a paldain in both our games (in one of which I am DM).
I certainly will not nerf a core ability during a campaign. But if the next one starts, and a player wants to play a paladin, I just might.
Also the assessment in your last sentence is very questionable.
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The reward for playing one of the most stigmatized classes in the game is the ability to obliterate certain types of foes. Let's be honest, getting a Paladin to the point where they might encounter, say, a Demilich is a pretty mean feat. The thing still will have a decent chance of completely killing the Paladin in a standard action from up to 300 ft, then flying along on its merry way.
No. No it doesn't, unless the Paladin foolishly traded away Divine Grace, and even then, the Paladin should still have a strong Fortitude save. Paladins failing saves is the exception, not the rule.
Not to mention, by the time the party encounters a demilich, a Paladin will have Aura of Justice, so EVERY party member will go up against the thing with Smite Evil on, and without its DR, a demilich has a balsa wood jaw, and turns into a suicide attacker at best.
Which is not to say I necessarily advocate dropping that portion of Smite Evil entirely; I remember all too well when the 3.5 Paladin's Smite Evil was more appropriately termed 'Slap Evil on the Wrist'. I might consider, however, providing a small limitation. Say, perhaps, that Smite Evil overcomes all material-based DRs (silver, adamantine, cold iron, etc.), DR/Magic, and DR/Good or Holy...but that damage-type DR such as DR/Piercing must still be dealt with normally, as well as unique DRs such as DR/Vorpal.
This is an issue for a dm not accounting for their party's abilities. Its not just paladins that change the relative value of certain kinds of opponents, all sorts of party combinations make certain kinds of enemies easier or harder. You have to account for that.
Long gone (i would argue they were never here) are the days where you just park a 'boss monster' in front of the party and create a memeorable encounter. You have to actually plan out not just the encounter, but the ones preceeding it. If you have a paladin in the party there should be several fights preceeding the 'boss monster' that encourage the paladin to use his smites. He may, he may not, but when not smiting the paladin is a glorified warrior in combat and thus much less effective. So one way or another the party should be relatively low on resources when they face the big bad. Either the paladin is out of smites, or the party has gotten beat up alot more then they would have if the paly had used smites.
In addition, when there is a single target guy, like a paladin or an inquisitor in the party you shouldnt have single boss monsters. Instead of one lich, have 2 lower level liches (you can lower their cr with templates if needed). Then sure the paladin can smite one, but they dont wipe out the vast majority of the encounter with their smite, there is still Liche number 2 to worry about.
Force your players to make choices with their resources. Pathfinder has GREATLY increased the concept of expendable resources, not just with the paladin, but with the magus, the alchemist, the inquisitor, the monk, the ninja, bard, and even to an extent the barbarian with certain rage powers or the summoner with their SLAs. As a DM you HAVE to understand your party's resource management habits and use that knowledge to set up your important encounters.
This is an issue for a dm not accounting for their party's abilities.
We pretty much exclusively run official Paizo modules.
This is an issue for a dm not accounting for their party's abilities.We pretty much exclusively run official Paizo modules.
Which is fine, but you still need to adapt them to your party. There is absolutely ZERO way paizo or anyone else can write an adventure that can account for every possible combination of abilities, or even every combination of core classes. The game is too open for that. For one party of the same level with the same gear, a pit trap can be a non-issue, and for others it can bring half the party to near death.
Even when running a module, you as dm have to pay attention to what your party is able to do and make changes where needed OR accept that some encounters are going to be harder or easier then 'normal'. There isnt a way around that short of having a party made up of very vanilla characters. Even just the core rules provide too much of a variety of capabilities for that.
This is an issue for a dm not accounting for their party's abilities.We pretty much exclusively run official Paizo modules.Which is fine, but you still need to adapt them to your party. There is absolutely ZERO way paizo or anyone else can write an adventure that can account for every possible combination of abilities, or even every combination of core classes. The game is too open for that. For one party of the same level with the same gear, a pit trap can be a non-issue, and for others it can bring half the party to near death.
Even when running a module, you as dm have to pay attention to what your party is able to do and make changes where needed OR accept that some encounters are going to be harder or easier then 'normal'. There isnt a way around that short of having a party made up of very vanilla characters. Even just the core rules provide too much of a variety of capabilities for that.
This is all true. And I DO modify the official content a lot (thankfully HeroLab exists!).
However, it is irksome that a lot of "boss fights" are to easy because of the paladin.
However, it is irksome that a lot of "boss fights" are to easy because of the paladin.
The paladin in our group keeps forgetting he can smite, (unless he's facing something like an ancient dragon, and then he complains he can only hit the dragon with a 16 or better, while all of the dragon's attacks will connect on anything but a natural 1.)
But boss fights tend to be short anyway due to the optimized dwarf fighter with adamantine weapons. You know how many creatures in the Runelords AP are DR 10/adamantine?
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Nerf it to "Smite Evil bypasses 1 point of the target's DR per paladin class level." That way paladins still get a major benefit to their smites, without automatically overcoming ALL of most creatures' DR. With this in play, a 14th level Paladin smiting a demilich would still have to content with DR 6/-, for example.
Edit: Wait, after further review, I don't like that at low levels. Maybe make it 5 points + 1/2 class levels, rounded down. 1st level paladin bypasses DR 5/-, 14th level paladin bypasses DR 12/-, and a 20th level paladin bypasses DR 15/-. Sounds better.
It should irk you just as much as when an enemy happens to be the favored enemy of a ranger.
No. Why not? Favoured enemy kicks in much more infrequent. Smite evil works on 90% of the bosses and probably 60-70% of all enemies.
How often gets a ranger to use his maximum favoured enemy boni? Maybe 20% of total fights? Maybe even 10% or less.
You know how many creatures in the Runelords AP are DR 10/adamantine?
Hm. We are near the end of book 4, and I can't remember a single one from the top of my head.
It should irk you just as much as when an enemy happens to be the favored enemy of a ranger.
No. Why not? Favoured enemy kicks in much more infrequent. Smite evil works on 90% of the bosses and probably 60-70% of all enemies.
How often gets a ranger to use his maximum favoured enemy boni? Maybe 20% of total fights? Maybe even 10% or less.
If the issue is with the distribution of the monsters in the AP i recommend checking the rise of the runelords boards. I am certain plenty of the people there by now have run through it with a pathfinder paladin in the group, you will get more help there then on the rpg boards. But there is a big difference between 'I need to make a change in the rules due to circumstances in a campaign', and 'There is a problem in general with the paladins smite'. Just make sure if you do make a change you tell the player about it ahead of time, and give him the opportunity to make a new character or alter the existing one if you do.
Hm. We are near the end of book 4, and I can't remember a single one from the top of my head.
You know how many creatures in the Runelords AP are DR 10/adamantine?
At least
The Scribbler, Ordikon, armored clay golem, iron archer...
Kolokotroni:
What? I never brought up the campaign, that was Damon. Its a coincidence that my group is playing it too at the moment.
I also stated that we are not going to make a rules change during a campaign. We might if we start a new campaign, though - especially since it may well be carrion crown.
Hm. We are near the end of book 4, and I can't remember a single one from the top of my head.
off the top of my head as a 1st example, golem at the clock tower...
Hm. We are near the end of book 4, and I can't remember a single one from the top of my head.
You know how many creatures in the Runelords AP are DR 10/adamantine?
At least ** spoiler omitted **, and Book 5 is littered with them:
** spoiler omitted **
Hm, I plan on mostly skipping book 5, since my players are not that into longer dungeon crawls.
off the top of my head as a 1st example, golem at the clock tower...
Hm. We are near the end of book 4, and I can't remember a single one from the top of my head.
Right, but that was only DR 5 or am I mistaken? Anyway thats the only example until the end of book 4.
What? I never brought up the campaign, that was Damon. Its a coincidence that my group is playing it too at the moment.
I also stated that we are not going to make a rules change during a campaign. We might if we start a new campaign, though - especially since it may well be carrion crown.
My point is that the actual distribution of 'boss monsters' is not all dragons devils and undead. They can be constructs, npcs, awakened spirits, big stompy giants, etc. I have played in campaigns where the paladin almost never gets to smite(one in 3.5 when i was playing a paladin and literally didnt smite evil once for 10 sessions or so), in the kingmaker game i am playing in more then half the enemies have been neutral or not clearly evil. In games like that the paladin is at a disadvantage, and deserves his extra power when he is laying into 'team evil'.
If a paladin is being disruptive BECAUSE of what is in the campaign (all the big bads are single undead, dragons or evil outsiders) then you should talk to the people who know the adventure about how to deal with it. That said I guess i was quick to assume you wanted a solution to the issue? I assume when you said 'i dont like this one part of this rule' that your end goal was to change it.
I'm having a hard time really seeing this as that bad an issue. So the paladin, when he's smiting, ignores DR no matter what his weapons are. You need to realize that groups doing their homework and paying attention to the development of the Paizo APs have a pretty good chance of having weapons capable of penetrating the boss monsters' DRs anyway. If the paladin's smite didn't penetrate DR, he'd just draw his good iron sword to fight the balor or his good silver sword to fight the pit fiend. Or he'd draw his good +3 sword and go to town on either of them, penetrating their DR all the way.
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It makes it hard to create memorable and balanced fights against the most important iconic "boss monsters" of the game, namely powerful undead, devils/demons and dragons.
We pretty much exclusively run official Paizo modules.
A couple things. First, every boss fight will not be memorable. No matter how much you prepare, no matter how cool you think it is, nothing can make it memorable by default. Fights are memorable for the players because they did something cool or saved the party's collective behinds. Most of the memorable fights from my groups were not even boss fights. They were usually normal fights that went horribly wrong for the party and then they had to get clever to save themselves. Stop fixating on making them memorable. If they happen to roll over a few boss monsters that is fine as long as everybody had fun.
Second, when DMs come to the boards to complain that a particular core ability is too much that usually indicates that the DM is stuck in a rules and tactics rut. It has happened to me (not on the boards but privately) and once I found a few counters to the problem then the players adjusted accordingly. I have found that it expands my range as a DM and makes the game more fun overall for my players.
Third. How great is Herolab? Really great...or so I am told. The major problem with Herolab that you don't get into a character or NPC's mechanics as much as you would redoing him by hand. I have seen it a lot with players who make characters with Herolab. They click on options but then forget some of their cool abilities because it was so easy to do. If you want to understand your complicated boss and mini boss type monsters then redo them by hand. Use Herolab for the innumerable mooks and chumps.
Gotta admit, it may be my over-bearing amount of free time, my long history with RPGs in every form, or just the sheer amount of books I've read, but I almost never encounter anything that I don't have a prepared weapon for. Hell I had a barbarian once who had a adamantine +1 furious holy weapon that allowed me to bypass pretty much everythings DR. (+3 enhancement when raging so counts as cold iron, silver, adamantine, magic and good aligned for the purposes of bypassing dr) and that's only a total +4 weapon.
If you want to understand your complicated boss and mini boss type monsters then redo them by hand. Use Herolab for the innumerable mooks and chumps.
No, HeroLab works super for me. Can not confirm your assessment at all.
Your first paragraph: I know that, and agree.
Your second paragraph: And maybe the game isn't perfect and the GM "complaining" completely justified. And the game isn't. Perfect.
How often gets a ranger to use his maximum favoured enemy boni? Maybe 20% of total fights? Maybe even 10% or less.
Once they make it to 3rd level spells, favored enemy applies in 100% of fights that really count.
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Gotta admit, it may be my over-bearing amount of free time, my long history with RPGs in every form, or just the sheer amount of books I've read, but I almost never encounter anything that I don't have a prepared weapon for. Hell I had a barbarian once who had a adamantine +1 furious holy weapon that allowed me to bypass pretty much everythings DR. (+3 enhancement when raging so counts as cold iron, silver, adamantine, magic and good aligned for the purposes of bypassing dr) and that's only a total +4 weapon.
So what did you do with the lawful, chaotic, evil, artifact DRs? You at least need a +5 weapon for the former 3.
And kickass creatures (like Solars) have artifact DRs. Why? Because they are supposed to be BADASS. But the Paladin got his lame special that works on >70% of all AP encounter and >95% of all AP BBEGs.Not playing a Paladin in an AP (unmodified) is kinda dumb because they are so good. And take the Archer Way and you'll let your teammates look like peons.
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If the party has to put up with the paladin for so long that it gets to the point where the main defense of critters is huge DR, I think the party deserves an easier fight.
I found fascinating people that say: "paladins are jerks, so you need a overpowering feature to make them playable".
Maybe not playing them as jerks will work better?
To the OP: I see where you cam from. I have no trouble with the smite evil capability allowing the paladins to bypass "normal" DR (magic, silver, cold iron, adamantite).
I have some problem with it allowing to bypass DR/alignment (really your LG power allow you to bypass a DR/chaotic resistance?) and I am really against allowing it to bypass resistance like epic or vorpal.
A relevant part of the CR of those creatures is linked to that DR and removing it for one free action, especially when the paladin get his Aura of Justice and can share the power with the whole group, is excessive.
"Common" DR are routinely bypassed at middle to high levels so making them irrelevant isn't a problem as the capacity to bypass that kind of obstacle is already factored in the monster CR.
@ Kolokotroni
Very good comments, all true, but sometime switching creatures will weaken the plots.
One demilich is part of a story, 2 liches make me think of the fruit and don't have the same impact.
Well, I had a separate weaker weapon for dealing with chaotic creatures, but honestly I've played a lot of Call and watched a lot of supernatural, so when I find myself commonly encountering a type of enemy the first thing I do is go and find a weapon that can make it bleed, it just so happens that cold iron, silver, magic, good and adamantine generally covers the things my barbarian was fighting in that campaign. Hell if I'm a archer I'm often carrying various slaying arrows or the like for what i've figured i'm most likely too come across.
I'm just saying, if your character has a intelligence over 12, and at least some-one has a relevant knowledge skill it often isn't hard to get around any form of Damage Reduction. And that's not even getting INTO the various archtypes, feats and class feature that can let you just straight up ignore them.
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A paladin can use a bow no problem.IF the Paladin is built to smite melee, then he's pretty much just doing dice damage with a bow, maybe with str added. A Paladin can either be built to smite with melee or with bow, not both. And almost all of them go for the melee route.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
I don't see anything there that say "it apply only to one weapon for every time you use the power".
So the paladin has no problem in activating the smite evil power and fire a bow, then to switch to a meele weapon when it become convenient.He will be less efficient than a bow focused character, but very far from useless.
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If you want to understand your complicated boss and mini boss type monsters then redo them by hand. Use Herolab for the innumerable mooks and chumps.No, HeroLab works super for me. Can not confirm your assessment at all.
Your first paragraph: I know that, and agree.
Your second paragraph: And maybe the game isn't perfect and the GM "complaining" completely justified. And the game isn't. Perfect.
Yes, because these boards are just overrun with OMG Paladins are breaking my game threads. I can barely see all the other threads because of all the OMG Paladin Smite is overpowered complaints by DMs.
I am also aggravated by all the OMG Pathfinder is the ultimate evolution of roleplaying games. Every rule works perfectly and meshes with every other part of the game. Those dang fanboys need to get a grip.
Back to reality. Nobody says the game is perfect. You are the first person I have heard complaining that OMG Smite is OP. People have given you good counters for the ability (other than being neutral). Here are a few more tactics:
1) Have guards for the bosses who are specialized in things like grapple, bull rush, disarm, sunder, etc. If they recognize someone is a huge risk then they go to town. This is extremely easy to do as you can rewrite current guards or add one or two new ones.
2) Put the boss on a different level and require the paladin to climb or fly or use a mode of movement that is not running. This works great for spell casting or ranged bosses.
3) Misdirection. Put a mini boss in each encounter leading up to the big boss. Give him abilities that make him super tough for a round or two. See if you can get the paladin to use his smites before you get to the boss. Once in a while throw in a neutral mini boss to make certain the paladin uses his detect evil. Mess with his mind.
4) Combine 1,2 and/or 3
5) One time throw in a good aligned person who has been dominated (or the like) and then buffed to be tough. Make him look like the mini boss. Oh how red faced and paranoid the paladin will be.
Your complaining is not justified. Your tactics are stale and you just need to up your game. Suddenly smite will not seem such a problem.
Well, I had a separate weaker weapon for dealing with chaotic creatures, but honestly I've played a lot of Call and watched a lot of supernatural, so when I find myself commonly encountering a type of enemy the first thing I do is go and find a weapon that can make it bleed, it just so happens that cold iron, silver, magic, good and adamantine generally covers the things my barbarian was fighting in that campaign. Hell if I'm a archer I'm often carrying various slaying arrows or the like for what i've figured i'm most likely too come across.
I'm just saying, if your character has a intelligence over 12, and at least some-one has a relevant knowledge skill it often isn't hard to get around any form of Damage Reduction. And that's not even getting INTO the various archtypes, feats and class feature that can let you just straight up ignore them.
So how do you go around DR Artifact?
Or lets say you have your fancy +7 Sword and suddenly that enemy has bludgeoning DR? Get out your +3 Flail?
Sure that works. But you will sacrifice damage because you will not have your focus/specialization feats (or weapon training)for it PLUS it will most likely be not your best enchanted weapon. This difference can EASILY extend into 20-40 DPR difference. And we are probably speaking of a lot more DPR when its a fighter... fighters have a hard time against damage type DRs because they usually have their feats and their class ability in weapons that usually do the same kind of damage...
There are Feats, Archetypes or Class Features that let you ignore DR? I mean there can certainly be some that let you ignore a certain kind of DR but hardly all DR...
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It's not that I so much hate paladins as I like conflicts with more shades of grey than your average Saturday morning cartoon. The road to the epic battle with the BBEG should be paved with moral dilemmas, including the chance of redemption for the wicked or those in their thrall.
A lich is a very good example. Even if you go with the idea that they are all evil, they aren't committed to Evil the same way that, say, a demon is. They have their quirks, their desires, their regrets and passions, but most of all, their intellect. Why should any lich who hasn't been Feebleminded not realize that the quickest way to defang a paladin is to get the gods to pull his paladinhood, and the easiest way to do that is to have him willfully do a wicked deed? Yes, yes, doing such a thing is evil, but to your average lich, it isn't so much wanting to do evil so much as using the right tool for the task, like throwing a rust monster at an iron golem.
Misdirecting the paladin such that he slays the captive innocent is simple planning and possibly foresight. Take in some sweet young thing as apprentice or just as someone to do the dusting and organize the scroll rack on the off chance some nosy paladin wanders in. You're fond them then same way you're fond of your favorite goldfish, but like your favorite goldfish, you wouldn't be terribly put out if they died either, and you'd certainly sacrifice them to save your own life. Or undeath. Whatever.
The liches who fail to take such elementary precautions are stupid and deserve to be smitten by wandering paladins.
Alienfreak, how often do you come up against something with epic (which is what I assume you mean) drs? Considering one source is the essential end boss for level 20 characters, and the other is a good creature you rarely find yourself fighting, and most campaigns tend to end around level 12ish, or at least most of mine and people I've talked with on the forums do. And if I'd been frequently coming up against say, undead, then of COURSE my weapon is a bludgeoning weapon.
But yeah I'd use a +4 furious weapon, since i believe that gives you +6 while raging counting it as a Epic weapon, though I'm iffy on the rules there.
EDIT:- Y'know this little back and forth thing we've got going here is really kinda pointless, because at the level that things have good and bludgeoning dr, and epic dr, etc, unless it's about 30 or something if I really want I could just build a character that quite happily deals so much damage it doesn't even matter.