I was just wondering why crossbows compared to bows seems like such a inferior choice. I am currently playing a crossbow fighter, and it seems to me that trying to use a crossbow as a dedicated ranged character, is both worse and more feat intensive than using a bow.
So my question is why is there such a big difference between these two weapons.
I think the biggest problem is the reload time and distance. Then again, I haven't checked the Crossbow stats in ages.
Might also be due to the damage and the wisdom of number crunchers.
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I think historically speaking, the crossbow was easier to use for mass troops because it required less training and skill than the bow. Just point and shoot. This however isn't reflected in the mechanics. I'd suggest to DMs to make the bow an exotic weapon thereby making the crossbow more attractive.
Well the reloading can be made manageable with rapid reload and crossbow master. But missing out on options such as making it migthy, multishot and bracers of archery is really annoying.
The reason it is inferior is that it is a simple weapon. It wasn't set up to perfectly emulate real life. A simple weapon mechanically should be inferior or martial weapon proficiency means absolutely nothing.
It might hurt more in the long run, but as far as ability scores go, not having to invest in a high Str does help in other areas.
Wasn't there a feat that let you add half of your dex mod to damage with crossbow? 3.5 maybe?
As for now the only advantage of the crossbow over a bow I can think about is prone shooter.
Of course, you need martial prof to use a bow, you don't for the average crossbow.
clawoftiamat wrote: The reason it is inferior is that it is a simple weapon. It wasn't set up to perfectly emulate real life. A simple weapon mechanically should be inferior or martial weapon proficiency means absolutely nothing. I see your point but my char have already spent more feats on being able to use the crossbow well than a fighter of the using a bow wopuld be required to, and using the crossbow is still not up to scratch.
This product by Rite Publishing has an archetype designed by Justin Sluder for the gunslinger called Arbalester that makes the gunslinger work with crossbows.
You should check it out if you want to try crossbows out.
Crysknife wrote: Wasn't there a feat that let you add half of your dex mod to damage with crossbow? 3.5 maybe?
As for now the only advantage of the crossbow over a bow I can think about is prone shooter.
Of course, you need martial prof to use a bow, you don't for the average crossbow.
Prone Shooter has no effect for crossbows.
Crossbows have a higher die and longer range, is a simple weapon. Martial weapon proficiency is a feat so it costs less feats to use proficiently.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
From what I have read over the years crossbows were easy to learn/teach, time consuming to load and fairly inaccurate at range. The reload times and putting the x-bow as a simple weapon and bows at martial do a decent job at emulating that while keeping the fantasy flavor.
Historically x-bows were used almost solely from fortifications or in massed units. In one on one situations (like in most RPG situations) it would most often be a one-shot then throw it aside and prepare for melee. Yes, bows were often used from fortifications and in massed units but it was also a useful personal weapon. It could be fired more quickly so a user could cycle it more times before being forced into melee (or before that deer ran out of range).
From a FRPG perspective ... make that autoloading crossbow a character's signature weapon and have at it. I would also be willing to work with a player if they wanted to justify multishot and other feats if they really wanted to make the crossbow their 'thing'. It is not a game changer and if they are enjoying the game more we are all probably enjoying it more.
Personal note - almost no one uses crossbows in any game I have been in or GMd because of the reload time. There is the occasional hand crossbow used by the sneaky (and often poison using) types, but not much other than that. I also tend to halve the range increment of crossbows and allow them 20 range increments as well. The bolt just might make it 1200' ... but it is as likely to hit feathers first as it is to have the business end draw blood at that distance
Trikk wrote: Crysknife wrote: Wasn't there a feat that let you add half of your dex mod to damage with crossbow? 3.5 maybe?
As for now the only advantage of the crossbow over a bow I can think about is prone shooter.
Of course, you need martial prof to use a bow, you don't for the average crossbow.
Prone Shooter has no effect for crossbows.
Please check before denying something I even bothered to link.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus.
Crysknife wrote: Trikk wrote: Crysknife wrote: Wasn't there a feat that let you add half of your dex mod to damage with crossbow? 3.5 maybe?
As for now the only advantage of the crossbow over a bow I can think about is prone shooter.
Of course, you need martial prof to use a bow, you don't for the average crossbow.
Prone Shooter has no effect for crossbows.
Please check before denying something I even bothered to link.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus. Fun fact: Crossbows take no penalty from being used when prone.
Only melee weapons do.
So...Prone Shooter has no effect on crossbows, since there is no penalty for it to get rid of.
Crysknife wrote:
Please check before denying something I even bothered to link.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus.
I suggest you check your own link instead of just assuming you know what it says.
Follow the link to prone condition and tell me what penalty you are getting rid of by taking that feat.
There are no penalties for attacking from prone position with a crossbow.
Trikk wrote: Crysknife wrote:
Please check before denying something I even bothered to link.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus.
I suggest you check your own link instead of just assuming you know what it says.
Follow the link to prone condition and tell me what penalty you are getting rid of by taking that feat.
There are no penalties for attacking from prone position with a crossbow. Which means the Prone Shooter feat is completely useless?
Or does it only work with firearms? Of course the prone condition says "cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)" and there's no mention of a penalty for any range weapon.
Looks like there's a need for errata here.
thejeff wrote: Which means the Prone Shooter feat is completely useless?
Or does it only work with firearms? Of course the prone condition says "cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)" and there's no mention of a penalty for any range weapon.
Looks like there's a need for errata here.
I'm not too hot on the rules for firearms, but I would assume if they get a penalty while prone then crossbows get that too and vice versa. Firearms should be even easier to use while prone than crossbows to be honest.
It is indeed not an ideal choice for crossbow users.
ok, this has gotten to both the historian and the gamer in me.
The reason that crossbows are inferior to bows in D&D decended RPG games is the same reason spears are inferior to swords. Strictly game design, which is trying to reflect a "heroic fantasy feel". If our culture had William Tell (spelling?) instead of Robin Hood, crossbows would be better. Instead we have the image of the fantasy hero in little or no armor (best armor is a chain shirt? really? no helmet?), shieldless - waving a one handed long sword. Or dressed in green, with a Longbow (though, to give them credit, the game designers have admitted that a Composite bow is more handy and now marginally better than the ole Welsh Bow). If you want to play the game as written, I fear you are stuck with it (unless you start house ruling it to death, I've done some house rules that sort of put crossbows on par with bow, different, but equal I think).
Sorry - end of rant now, all of the above is my opinion, and I'm sure other people will be happy to flame me over it, but I needed to get it out of my system.
Trikk wrote: thejeff wrote: Which means the Prone Shooter feat is completely useless?
Or does it only work with firearms? Of course the prone condition says "cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)" and there's no mention of a penalty for any range weapon.
Looks like there's a need for errata here.
I'm not too hot on the rules for firearms, but I would assume if they get a penalty while prone then crossbows get that too and vice versa. Firearms should be even easier to use while prone than crossbows to be honest.
It is indeed not an ideal choice for crossbow users. depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone).
nosig wrote: depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone). That's true. I've heard that even modern firearms can be a hassle to reload while prone (like bullpup designs).
Trikk wrote: nosig wrote: depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone). That's true. I've heard that even modern firearms can be a hassle to reload while prone (like bullpup designs). not to say that loading the crossbow is easy - I would have to roll on my back to do it, and my knee would "pop up" into a gunners sight when I use the sturrup.
nosig wrote: Trikk wrote: thejeff wrote: Which means the Prone Shooter feat is completely useless?
Or does it only work with firearms? Of course the prone condition says "cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)" and there's no mention of a penalty for any range weapon.
Looks like there's a need for errata here.
I'm not too hot on the rules for firearms, but I would assume if they get a penalty while prone then crossbows get that too and vice versa. Firearms should be even easier to use while prone than crossbows to be honest.
It is indeed not an ideal choice for crossbow users. depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone). May be true, but I don't think it's reflected in the Pathfinder rules. Nor is it addressed by the Prone Shooter feat.
Trikk wrote: Crysknife wrote:
Please check before denying something I even bothered to link.
Benefit: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you can ignore the penalty the prone condition imposes on ranged attack rolls you make using a crossbow or firearm with which you have Weapon Focus.
I suggest you check your own link instead of just assuming you know what it says.
Follow the link to prone condition and tell me what penalty you are getting rid of by taking that feat.
There are no penalties for attacking from prone position with a crossbow. I was wrong, I beg your pardon.
nosig wrote: ok, this has gotten to both the historian and the gamer in me.
The reason that crossbows are inferior to bows in D&D decended RPG games is the same reason spears are inferior to swords. Strictly game design, which is trying to reflect a "heroic fantasy feel". If our culture had William Tell (spelling?) instead of Robin Hood, crossbows would be better. Instead we have the image of the fantasy hero in little or no armor (best armor is a chain shirt? really? no helmet?), shieldless - waving a one handed long sword. Or dressed in green, with a Longbow (though, to give them credit, the game designers have admitted that a Composite bow is more handy and now marginally better than the ole Welsh Bow). If you want to play the game as written, I fear you are stuck with it (unless you start house ruling it to death, I've done some house rules that sort of put crossbows on par with bow, different, but equal I think).
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I'm not sure I agree with much of this. It certainly isn't true that Pathfinder rules push shieldless one-handed fighting. 2-Hand or TWF are much more optimal. The advice for shields is to focus on TWF and bash with them, which isn't really a common "heroic fantasy" image.
The problem with crossbows comes with iterative attacks and the attempt to retain the realism that they're slower to use. It would take a lot to convince me that you can reload a crossbow anywhere near as fast as a bow.
thejeff wrote: nosig wrote: ok, this has gotten to both the historian and the gamer in me.
The reason that crossbows are inferior to bows in D&D decended RPG games is the same reason spears are inferior to swords. Strictly game design, which is trying to reflect a "heroic fantasy feel". If our culture had William Tell (spelling?) instead of Robin Hood, crossbows would be better. Instead we have the image of the fantasy hero in little or no armor (best armor is a chain shirt? really? no helmet?), shieldless - waving a one handed long sword. Or dressed in green, with a Longbow (though, to give them credit, the game designers have admitted that a Composite bow is more handy and now marginally better than the ole Welsh Bow). If you want to play the game as written, I fear you are stuck with it (unless you start house ruling it to death, I've done some house rules that sort of put crossbows on par with bow, different, but equal I think).
** spoiler omitted **
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I'm not sure I agree with much of this. It certainly isn't true that Pathfinder rules push shieldless one-handed fighting. 2-Hand or TWF are much more optimal. The advice for shields is to focus on TWF and bash with them, which isn't really a common "heroic fantasy" image.
The problem with crossbows comes with iterative attacks and the attempt to retain the realism that they're slower to use. It would take a lot to convince me that you can reload a crossbow anywhere near as fast as a bow. (the internet ate my first post so trying this again...)
LOL! I would not try to convinse you "that you can reload a crossbow anywhere near as fast as a bow." I shot both and I know you can't. The two are very different. Crossbows hit harder and shot slower. This is partly because they are loaded using two arms or the legs or a lever/crank (though the crank ones should be siege machines). A fast game fix would be to give a Crossbow a strength rating and have it do 2-h-strengh damage. We ahve kept the slower rate in our game, we have not fixed the damage they do.
Besides which, there are LOTS of different crossbows (and bows for that matter). Why so many swords but only 4 bows (and 3 x-bows?).
The Shield thing should be discussed on it's own thread. It has a lot of history - but it started with the hero image of a guy with a sword (the kind you find on old book covers like John Carter or Eleric)
(By the way, please accept my aplogies on my spelling - it's bad I know.)
So i guess the notion of crossbows, not being a heroic weapon. Is part of why they have decided to make it a easy to use not as good weapon. Too bad i much prefer crossbows, but the idea nosig had about giving them a strenght rating seems rather interesting and i will try to run it by my gm thanks for the idea.
nosig wrote: stuff These are a lot of the reason why I have my own rules for firearms and crossbows. They are both simple weapons that hit harder than bows, but take a lot longer to reload.
I like the idea of a crossbow having a strength rating, and reloading a crossbow take a number of rounds equal to its strength rating divided by the user's strength rounded up.
So for a peasant with a 10 strength
Strength 10 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 1 round to reload, 1d10 damage
Strength 20 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 2 rounds to reload, 1d10 + 5 damage
Strength 30 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 3 rounds to reload, 1d10 + 10 damage.
You are capped at 3 times your strength.
Then you can have training(via feats) or modifications(cranks, goat's foot, etc) that increase your effective strength when reloading.
So with a goat's foot(+2 strength), and rapid reload(+4 strength when reloading), you can get an effective strength of 16, and reload a strength 30 crossbow in 2 rounds, or a strength 16 crossbow(1d10 + 3) in a single round.
This makes crossbows good weapons for poorly trained troops(simple weapon), but the bow is superior for well trained troops(martial weapon, better feats available), but the crossbow does have a niche as an opening attack weapon for non-ranged warriors. If I am out of combat, the reload time is trivial. So a two-handed weapon focused fighter can carry around a loaded heavy crossbow as ranged opener.
Charender wrote: nosig wrote: stuff These are a lot of the reason why I have my own rules for firearms and crossbows. They are both simple weapons that hit harder than bows, but take a lot longer to reload.
I like the idea of a crossbow having a strength rating, and reloading a crossbow take a number of rounds equal to its strength rating divided by the user's strength rounded up.
So for a peasant with a 10 strength
Strength 10 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 1 round to reload, 1d10 damage
Strength 20 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 2 rounds to reload, 1d10 + 5 damage
Strength 30 crossbow, 1 round to shoot, 3 rounds to reload, 1d10 + 10 damage.
You are capped at 3 times your strength.
Then you can have training(via feats) or modifications(cranks, goat's foot, etc) that increase your effective strength when reloading.
So with a goat's foot(+2 strength), and rapid reload(+4 strength when reloading), you can get an effective strength of 16, and reload a strength 30 crossbow in 2 rounds, or a strength 16 crossbow(1d10 + 3) in a single round.
This makes crossbows good weapons for poorly trained troops(simple weapon), but the bow is superior for well trained troops(martial weapon, better feats available), but the crossbow does have a niche as an opening attack weapon for non-ranged warriors. If I am out of combat, the reload time is trivial. So a two-handed weapon focused fighter can carry around a loaded heavy crossbow as ranged opener. Wouldn't the tension from an always-loaded crossbow cause it to break?
Crossbows should have a Str rating mechanic just like bows.
reply to "Wouldn't the tension from an always-loaded crossbow cause it to break?"
well... the answer is yes and no.
It might damage the trigger mech., but the bow itself is not likely to be damaged - depending on how it is made. It's kind of like your car shocks - does it damage them to keep the tension on them all the time like that? A side note on that - Welsh bows (a simple bows) should be stored and transported unstrung - but most composite bows can be damaged if left unstrung for long. This doesn't come up in PF (some in home games)
so I guess it would depend. say, don't leave your crossbow loaded for more than a few hours without fireing it. but then just reload it and you should be ok. and check the trigger mech regularly.
Crossbows need more damage or better damage bonuses or else they will never be good as a bow.
Ideally it will only take 1 feat, but Paizo will probably force the crossbow user to take 3 more in order to be as good as a bow (like all the other crossbow feats).
Is it necessary that any weapon be as good as any other weapon?
In my home game I just change the machanic of 2 handed strength. I treat all strengths 2 handed as haveing 1/3 again the strength.
I then round to the nearest whole number so 8 becomes 11, etc
so a goblin with a strength of 9 has a strength of 12 two handed. (and a pixie with a 6 has an 8)
and a human with a 11 strength uses a (STR 10) bow of any type, and a (str 14) cross bow.
I then add mechanical advantages that would give a +1/2str, or +2/3str etc. so that I am adding to the STR and not the STR bonus. A "goats foot" lets your 11 Str guy load a STR 16 crossbow.
But this is just house rules - not good for organized play
thejeff wrote: Is it necessary that any weapon be as good as any other weapon?
nope, only that you have fun. The floggings will continue until you start having FUN!
Am I the only one that likes the repeating heavy crossbow?? Heretofore called HRC?? 5 shots, reload it as a free action...take one exotic weapon proficiency and all your problems disappear, especially if you are not a STR build.
See, a lot of the min/maxer/optimizer problems with crossbows vs bows are:
1. Too long to reload.....HRC fixes that.
2. No damage bonuses via Composite....HRC is awesome for non STR builds.
I used it at low levels on my Summoner build, and it was pretty awesome. Now, I DID invest a bunch of other feats like point blank shot, precise shot, and a few others that I probably shouldnt have, because by 5th or 6th level, I didnt hardly need to use the HRC because the Eidolon was killing everything for me, and I needed to buff him with spells instead of shooting. In summary, for 1 feat which I used for 4 or 5 solid rounds, it was totally worth it...for the investment of 4 feats, it wasnt.
Repeating crossbows are great for wizards, sorcerers, clerics, rogues (especially the sneak attack at range rogue) and other non STR builds.
Bomanz wrote: Am I the only one that likes the repeating heavy crossbow?? Heretofore called HRC?? 5 shots, reload it as a free action...take one exotic weapon proficiency and all your problems disappear, especially if you are not a STR build.
See, a lot of the min/maxer/optimizer problems with crossbows vs bows are:
1. Too long to reload.....HRC fixes that.
2. No damage bonuses via Composite....HRC is awesome for non STR builds.
I used it at low levels on my Summoner build, and it was pretty awesome. Now, I DID invest a bunch of other feats like point blank shot, precise shot, and a few others that I probably shouldnt have, because by 5th or 6th level, I didnt hardly need to use the HRC because the Eidolon was killing everything for me, and I needed to buff him with spells instead of shooting. In summary, for 1 feat which I used for 4 or 5 solid rounds, it was totally worth it...for the investment of 4 feats, it wasnt.
Repeating crossbows are great for wizards, sorcerers, clerics, rogues (especially the sneak attack at range rogue) and other non STR builds.
game wise I like them - though I tend to avoid the exotic weapons. I do not like the picture they have in the book for them. Most of the real life repeater-x-bows I've seen have a lever, kind of like an old western style rifle. Oh, and you shouldn't be able to load it while prone (though that depends...)
You could reload it while prone...most prone shooters have some sort of bench rest type thing because that is pretty much the entire point of laying prone...to alleviate the sway of the barrel/bow. With the tip lifted off the ground, plenty of room for a lever action with a small twist to one side, again part of the whole free action to reload thing.
Bomanz wrote: You could reload it while prone...most prone shooters have some sort of bench rest type thing because that is pretty much the entire point of laying prone...to alleviate the sway of the barrel/bow. With the tip lifted off the ground, plenty of room for a lever action with a small twist to one side, again part of the whole free action to reload thing. lol! google some of them. the one I picture (only one I have fired) has a lever over 18" long (but it also had a "magazine" that held 8 shots). The guy who owned it said he had another that fired 2 bolts at once. And both were kind of weak bows. (Copies of anchient chinesse x-bows)
but your right, it should be easy for some dwarven craftsmen to build one.
The crossbow feats should end up with as much power as the longbow feats for the same number of feats starting from commoner.
I would suggest increasing crossbow damage to match a longbow with no iteratives assuming reasonable strength. A dex>strength human archer using the elite array or a str>dex human archer using the standard array has a +2 strength mod and fires 3 shots with manyshot and rapidshot. If we discount 1 shot for reduced accuracy using rapidshot that's still 2 shots, each averaging 6.5 damage. By that standard a light crossbow should do 2d12 damage and a heavy crossbow 4d12.
Longbows would outstrip crossbows at higher levels, but crossbows would be quick to learn and nearly as effective at low levels.
I think the problem is the D&D focus on more attacks > more powerful attacks.
The original extra attacks in D&D weren't meant to be dogpiled on the Dragon, they were intended for wiping out hordes of goblins and orcs or whatever.
If, instead of additional attacks, dual wielding added damage comparable to what you get from using a two-handed weapon, and each additional attack you would have gotten from a higher BAB just gave you more damage on your normal attack, I think Crossbows would feel a hell of a lot more valuable and powerful.
Atarlost wrote: The crossbow feats should end up with as much power as the longbow feats for the same number of feats starting from commoner.
I would suggest increasing crossbow damage to match a longbow with no iteratives assuming reasonable strength. A dex>strength human archer using the elite array or a str>dex human archer using the standard array has a +2 strength mod and fires 3 shots with manyshot and rapidshot. If we discount 1 shot for reduced accuracy using rapidshot that's still 2 shots, each averaging 6.5 damage. By that standard a light crossbow should do 2d12 damage and a heavy crossbow 4d12.
Longbows would outstrip crossbows at higher levels, but crossbows would be quick to learn and nearly as effective at low levels.
Do you really want a CR 1/3 warrior pegging you with 4d12 every other round? That's 26 damage average hit. Bad idea.
Mergy wrote: Do you really want a CR 1/3 warrior pegging you with 4d12 every other round? That's 26 damage average hit. Bad idea. Compared to a CR 1/3 warrior with a composite longbow hitting for 1d8+2 twice a round? Level 1 warriors should do better with crossbows than longbows, and the -2 penalty on rapidshot does that, but the CR 1/3 warrior with a composite longbow is going to stand a good chance of putting down two level 1 PCs in two rounds or at least putting one down and injuring a second.
Crossbows punch above their weight. A level 1 commoner with a heavy crossbow is a serious, if not terribly accurate, threat to a level 5 aristocrat. This is proper and appropriate.
Shifty wrote: Crossbows should have a Str rating mechanic just like bows. I too think they should. At least, that's how I houseruled them.
I also think the base damage should be lower. Logic? In D&D, the smaller you are, the less damage you deal. The prongs of a light crossbow are about the size of a small-size bow. Therefore: 1d4.
Like a mighty composite bow, the crossbow could have a preset STR bonus; lets say +4. If you don't have the natural STR bonus to pull that, you must rely on some mechanical device to crank it up (like levers and stirrups) and load it. This takes more time than simply pulling the string of a bow; lets say a move action.
You'd end-up with a weapon dealing 1d4+4 that takes a move action to reload. I made that to keep the weapon in line with what it is by RaW, only with a higher average damage (but same max damage). Heavy crossbows are 1d6+6 (medium sized, 1 round to reload) in my houserules; a bit of a boost but the poor heavy crossbow needs it IMO.
If that isn't enough of a change for you, up the STR ratings.
'findel
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Slapdash wrote: I was just wondering why crossbows compared to bows seems like such a inferior choice. I am currently playing a crossbow fighter, and it seems to me that trying to use a crossbow as a dedicated ranged character, is both worse and more feat intensive than using a bow.
So my question is why is there such a big difference between these two weapons.
Note the classification of those two weapons, One of them is simple, designed to be handed out to peasants conscripted into the local baron's army, and the other requires martial training to use effectively, if you're not an elf.
Wouldn't it make sense that the martial weapon would be better?
Laurefindel wrote: Shifty wrote: Crossbows should have a Str rating mechanic just like bows. I too think they should. At least, that's how I houseruled them.
I also think the base damage should be lower. Logic? In D&D, the smaller you are, the less damage you deal. The prongs of a light crossbow are about the size of a small-size bow. Therefore: 1d4.
Like a mighty composite bow, the crossbow could have a preset STR bonus; lets say +4. If you don't have the natural STR bonus to pull that, you must rely on some mechanical device to crank it up (like levers and stirrups) and load it. This takes more time than simply pulling the string of a bow; lets say a move action.
You'd end-up with a weapon dealing 1d4+4 that takes a move action to reload. I made that to keep the weapon in line with what it is by RaW, only with a higher average damage (but same max damage). Heavy crossbows are 1d6+6 (medium sized, 1 round to reload) in my houserules; a bit of a boost but the poor heavy crossbow needs it IMO.
If that isn't enough of a change for you, up the STR ratings.
'findel yeah! I did the change to the damage dice too... 1d4 for a normal sized bolt - (heavy x-bow in my game is just a stronger x-bow, the mach. to cock it gives it a greater strength, more damage, longer to load). but I also raised the damage of Javelins (cause they are bigger missile!). and suddenly I have fighter type players carring and using Javs.
nosig wrote: depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone). Clearly, you have no experience of loading a musket, prone or otherwise. Powder doesn't fall down the barrel, it's rammed home, along with the ball. It's a bit more difficult to load from the prone position, but it's far from impossible, and was done in combat.
<---Civil War, Fur Trade era, and Rev War re-enactor, who's loaded from pron,e a number of different smooth-bore and rifled muskets.
The Prone Shooter feat is a useless feat, because it removes a penalty that doesn't exist. Prone expressly states the penalty is for melee attacks. If crossbows take a penalty for being prone, I want to start being able to use Feint for crossbow attacks.
I just built a base class for homebrew that got the ability to do large amounts of damage on a single attack with crossbows, and begins with repeating crossbow proficiency. They're built for steady amounts of high damage at long range (yes, the class is named sniper.) and get a few other useful abilities.
Cid Ayrbourne wrote: nosig wrote: depending on how the crossbow is loaded, (with a "goats foot" or a belt hook or some other means) it can be loaded while prone. Muskets can't be (powder wont fall down the barrel - it's not down when prone). Clearly, you have no experience of loading a musket, prone or otherwise. Powder doesn't fall down the barrel, it's rammed home, along with the ball. It's a bit more difficult to load from the prone position, but it's far from impossible, and was done in combat.
<---Civil War, Fur Trade era, and Rev War re-enactor, who's loaded from pron,e a number of different smooth-bore and rifled muskets.
The Prone Shooter feat is a useless feat, because it removes a penalty that doesn't exist. Prone expressly states the penalty is for melee attacks. If crossbows take a penalty for being prone, I want to start being able to use Feint for crossbow attacks. Is true! I've only loaded/fired black powder muzzle loaders from standing, just the ones my father/uncles owned. Maybe 10, or 20 times many years ago. (My mother did win the county black powder shot off one year - something she would remind my dad of for years!). And I really should be more careful of what I say with very limited experience. I do know I could not load it prone, though maybe a "paper" cartrage might help (I'd likely get powder all over me and "light up" myself when I tried to fire the weapon.) So, I will have to stand corrected sir. And thank you.
Arengrey wrote: I think historically speaking, the crossbow was easier to use for mass troops because it required less training and skill than the bow. Just point and shoot. This however isn't reflected in the mechanics. I'd suggest to DMs to make the bow an exotic weapon thereby making the crossbow more attractive. Never thought of it that way. Interesting.
My fix is just give all crossbows generic +2 damage (you may want to limit that to at PB and short ranges only). It takes some of the sting out of the potential AoO you wear while reloading.
While this can be replicated with a compound bow, it costs a lot more than a crossbow. Crossbow critical ranges 19-20 with D8+2 and D10+2 straight out of the box as it were and without feats remakes crossbows a brutal weapon, a favourable choice for someone who doesn't want to invest feats and gives mages/sorcerers a heavy hitting alternative.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Q: Why are crossbows such an inferior choice when compared to bows?
A: Because they are simple weapons and bows are martial weapons.
/end thread
Ravingdork wrote: Q: Why are crossbows such an inferior choice when compared to bows?
A: Because they are simple weapons and bows are martial weapons.
/end thread
Inferior choice, but not that far behind.
Use the feat you saved on proficiency to get Rapid Reload.
You can't get Manyshot, but a Double Crossbow shoots two bolts and has some advantages if you are focusing on standard actions instead of the full attack routine.
Crossbow Mastery is an awesome feat.
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