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My DM is running a ravenloft campaign and has allowed us to create pathfinder gestalt characters. I was thinking up a character idea that involves lots of sneak attack. I was thinking of mixing two classes that both have sneak attack together in order to maximize my dice does this work
Would the sneak attack stack from any of these combinations?
Ninja/rogue
Rogue / vivisectionist
as there is a current dispute with another player if this does stack please support with evidence.
Can't take levels in rogue and ninja.
Here's the vivisectionist's sneak attack entry.
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
I believe the vivisectionist's text is the only text that says the levels stack to determine sneak attack. All others just add a sneak attack die to their current total.
A sandman bard for example would just add +1d6 on top of the sneak attack from rogue levels. Same goes for arcane trickster. And...anything else that doesn't have the same text as the vivisectionist.
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Ninja/rogue would specifically not be allowed; they are the same class.
But no, you get the class feature once; much like 2 BAB classes wouldn't work together. Alternating levels between rogue and vivi would work, if vivi did not have text that just says you add the two together.
So generally, you'll be getting 1 every 2 levels. You can add "cheat dips" with 1-level dips in assassin and master spy eventually; to end up with 6d6 by 9 if you want that.
Remember you're better off just getting more damage-based features anyway; think of sneak attack as +3.5 circumstantial damage. There are better ways to get up damage ratios, especially gestating.
If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
Note that Sneak Attacks from different classes only ever stack if the above clause or similar is present. Since the Ninja is an alternate version of the Rogue, this clause is not present. Therefore, they would not stack.
normally they should stack under gestalt, just like prestige class sneak attack stacks with base class.
However the gestalt rules are even more easy to break than the normal character creation. You might want to check with your GM as he might dislike your one trick pony because gestalt is normally there to add versatility.
Huh, a Sandman's sneak attack is different from all the rest.
But no, you get the class feature once; much like 2 BAB classes wouldn't work together.
What do you mean by this?
Are you saying that two classes with full BAB don't stack? If you take a level of Fighter (BAB+1) and a level of Barbarian (BAB+1) your BAB is +2.
Huh, a Sandman's sneak attack is different from all the rest.
I noticed this as well. The language makes it sound as though it stacks with everything... which is the case, apparently.
Huh, a Sandman's sneak attack is different from all the rest.I noticed this as well. The language makes it sound as though it stacks with everything... which is the case, apparently.
Further than that, it sounds like it's not subject to the usual restrictions of Sneak Attack proper.
As in: it's not precision damage (although that's real iffy, since SA proper doesn't mention precision damage either, and it's only referred to as precision damage by name), and so it is multiplied on a critical hit. There's no range limit, and this line:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
doesn't apply.
That's mostly going RAW, which is clearly not RAI.
But no, you get the class feature once; much like 2 BAB classes wouldn't work together.What do you mean by this?
Are you saying that two classes with full BAB don't stack? If you take a level of Fighter (BAB+1) and a level of Barbarian (BAB+1) your BAB is +2.
In gestalt, you take one level of Fighter/Barbarian, and gain one BAB (not 2). So if you take two levels of Rogue/Vivisectionist, you gain 1 Sneak attack (not 2).
My understanding of Gestalt rules is that you choose two classes and...
- Take the higher of the two BABs (Ex: Ftr's BAB is higher than Sor)
- Take the higher saves. (Ftr's Fort save, Sor's Will save, Ref is the same)
- Take the higher hit die. (Ftr's d10 is higher than the Sor's d6)
- Take all class features of both.
In this instance, however, I am inclined to say that the levels would merely stack for the purpose of sneak attack, rather than actually giving you double dice every two levels. That way you get 1d6 at first level, 2d6 at second, 3d6 at third... I think that's how it would go.
But it was mentioned earlier that a fighter-barbarian 1 would have a BAB of 2? This is incorrect, isn't it? It should still be 1? Base Fortitude should be 2, still?
Bobson, so what you're saying is that if you would go rogue on the one hand and 1fighter/rest vivisectionist it would work, as you gain 1 sneak attack every level and not 2SA every 2 levels?
It's not my interpretation of the gestalt rules, but they were quite loose and not balanced anyhow.
But it was mentioned earlier that a fighter-barbarian 1 would have a BAB of 2? This is incorrect, isn't it?
That was me completely missing "gestalt" in the discussion. I hadn't heard that before, and was assuming it was just an odd way of talking about multiclassing. Sorry for the confusion!
A third level gestalt Rogue 3 | Vivisectionist 3 would only have 2d6 sneak attack.
A tenth level gestalt Rogue 10 | Fighter 9/Assassin 1 would only have a 5d6 sneak attack (just the SA from the higher of the two progressions).
Here is the relevant info:
Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Your sneak attack dice are determined solely by which "side" of the build has the most.
However, a tenth level gestalt Rogue 9/Assassin 1 | Fighter 10 would have a 6d6 sneak attack. +5d6 from the Rogue and +1d6 from the Assassin- all on one "side" of the build.
No, class features that both classes share don't stack like that.
But if you have access to 3rd party stuff I can suggest a couple ways to get it higher.
My DM is running a ravenloft campaign and has allowed us to create pathfinder gestalt characters. I was thinking up a character idea that involves lots of sneak attack. I was thinking of mixing two classes that both have sneak attack together in order to maximize my dice does this work
Would the sneak attack stack from any of these combinations?
Ninja/rogue
Rogue / vivisectionistas there is a current dispute with another player if this does stack please support with evidence.
No, they don't stack. Sadly, there's not a lot of written evidence to point to when discussing gestalt rules.
I would seriously consider making a Rogue/Fighter, and switching Fighter to Shadowdancer at 6th level. The synergy between Shadowdancer and Rogue is outstanding!
Just gonna agree with the majority here in that you ca't stack them and you can't take both rogue and ninja as two sides of a gestalt. (same class)
Other people have explained it clearer, but what I meant was that effectively, regardless of whether you're taking levels of rogue/vivisectionist or rogue/fighter, you gain one level's worth of sneak attack progression per level. That gets you a new die every other level. It works the same as if you took one level of rogue then started taking vivisectionist in a normal game:Bobson, so what you're saying is that if you would go rogue on the one hand and 1fighter/rest vivisectionist it would work, as you gain 1 sneak attack every level and not 2SA every 2 levels?
It's not my interpretation of the gestalt rules, but they were quite loose and not balanced anyhow.
So an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on
. If you had a class which granted sneak attack that didn't stack with rogue levels, like Sandman, then you could potentially gain two dice of sneak attack on the same level as a rogue/sandman.
Hm, so at level 1...rogue vivisectionist would have 1d6.
At level 2, their levels would stack to determine what level of SA. So...
rogue 2 vivisectionist 2 would have 4, meaning 2d6.
at level 3, it'd be 6, so 3d6.
at 4, it'd be 8, so 4d6.
Funky. I'd just have it be the same level as rogue. Less bookkeeping, and it's only 3.5 extra damage.
Hm, so at level 1...rogue vivisectionist would have 1d6.
At level 2, their levels would stack to determine what level of SA. So...
rogue 2 vivisectionist 2 would have 4, meaning 2d6.
at level 3, it'd be 6, so 3d6.
at 4, it'd be 8, so 4d6.
Funky. I'd just have it be the same level as rogue. Less bookkeeping, and it's only 3.5 extra damage.
No. At level 2, a rogue/vivisectionist would have 2 levels worth of as-a-rogue sneak attack, the same way it would have 2 levels worth of three-quarters BAB, 2 levels worth of good reflex saves, 2 levels worth of good fort saves, 2 levels worth of bad will saves, 2 levels worth of rogue trick progression, and 2 levels worth of alchemist extracts.
That grants +1d6 sneak attack, +1 BAB, +3 reflex, +3 will, +0 will, 1 trick, and 2 first level extracts per day.
Anything that normally stacks with rogue levels merges with them instead when gestalting.
Pretty much NOTHING stacks in Gestalt. The rule is that you get the BEST of the class features of the two classes and you cannot take two versions on the same class.
So no ninja/rogue.
Even if you get two different classes that give Sneak Attack you would only get the sneak attack value from the class with the better progression.
Can't take levels in rogue and ninja.
Here's the vivisectionist's sneak attack entry.
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
Since when?
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Can't take levels in rogue and ninja.Since when?
Would it be possible to multiclass as two different types of cleric and gain four domain powers?
No, you can take a class only once.
"Most of the options presented on the following pages
include a host of alternate class features. When a character
selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class
features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of
the archetypes presented here."
Since when?Can't take levels in rogue and ninja.
Ultimate Combat, first printing, page 8. Last few sentences of the "Alternate Class" paragraph.