So, I stopped GMing for my players and found a new person to do the job, and joined the ranks of the players. I'm currently a 2nd level paladin, and I've struck something of a problem RP wise.
We need to defeat a BBEG who's far more powerful than we are. I don't know his level, but he cast a spell on the barbarian that caused instant death (I think it was power word kill, but I can't say for sure.), so it's pretty high. Attacking someone that can kill us instantly with no save is not a good idea, so we need to bring in the help of a powerful outsider. He's agreed to make us more powerful, but unfortunately is a demon who wants something in return.
This brings up the first problem. I am a paladin. Can I even make a deal with the creature without violating the code of conduct? To make things worse, what the demon wants is my soul. Specifically, he demands that I fall from grace by killing my niece in front of him. If I do it, I just murdered a family member and broke the code of conduct in at least four different ways. If I don't, however, the BBEG isn't stopped and thousands die. Letting that happen when I could have prevented it is also a violation of the paladin's code of conduct. I've already asked the GM if there is another source of the power we need, and he says no, there isn't. So it's either accept and kill my niece, decline and kill thousands, or refuse any further contact with the demon and kill thousands.
What do I do? I have no doubt that if I make the wrong choice I will fall from grace. The GM has already shown himself to be very strict, especially on issues of codes of conduct. If I don't do whatever the right thing is by the code of conduct, I will have to spend a long time trying to get access to an atonement spell, and will be useless for several levels.
You refuse. You will not fall. It seems the Gm may be setting you up, but a paladin does not "Give into the lesser evil". Refusing to make the deal does not break your code, making it sure as hell does.
Find another way.
I've tried that. The GM says that there is no realistic way I'll find anyone else powerful enough to help who is willing, and without help we won't win. Or barbarian got instakilled with no save in the first round of the last fight we had with the BBEG. We can't fight that sort of power without help.
1. The GM says that there is no realistic way I'll find anyone else powerful enough to help who is willing, 2. and without help we won't win. We can't fight that sort of power without help.
Your paladin falls from grace if she remains a player with GMs who give you binary choices.
Pathfinder is an open-ended role-playing game, not a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book.
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If you fight this particular evil then you may die. If you die foolishly then all the good you could have done by acting wisely is wasted. So don't do that.
Making a deal with an evil outsider is right out. So don't do that.
As TOZ said, find another way. Tell the DM you are going to try to find another way. A way that is consistent with your ideals. Then quest for the way to do it properly.
If he makes you fall for that he is a jerk for having put you in this position.
Also get a phylactery of faithfulness as soon as possible. Use it frequently.
edit: I want to add that in my games paladins get the benefit of the phylactery of faithfulness for free at 1st level. This way if a paladin falls it is his own fault for not taking a second to consider.
He has set you up to fall. A paladin does not make that deal. You have caused no one to come to harm by refusing. So you go elsewhere to find something or go fight it..you do not make the deal.
This brings up the first problem. I am a paladin. Can I even make a deal with the creature without violating the code of conduct?
No, I don't think you can... you need to find another way. Fighting evil with evil is a valid tactic, but it isn't the ONLY tactic.
If you are 2nd level and this guy is high enough to cast something that auto-kills on a failed save then you can not fight him head on at this point. Instead your character needs to be doing things that get her experience up while at the same time furthering her cause.
So what's a Paladin to do?
If you can't win in a head on fight then you need to win by not doing a head on fight. Think about this guys goals. Why do you need to stop him? How can you erode his power base? How can you foil his plans without taking him head on?
If you can go after these things then you will both weaken the opponent and strengthen yourself in skill, power, allies, and resources.
Get the common people on your side by freeing them in a guerrilla style campaign. Get the McGuffin the BBEG is after before he does and destroy it. Raise an army to meet his. Whatever, just do what you can to ruin his plans without directly facing him. It's still REALLY heroic and you are not having to compromise your ideals or bend on what is right.
(Just please, please, please don't tell me you brought a Paladin into a group of evil and neutral party members who are all planning on going along with the demon. In that case... your character needs to leave and you need to roll up a character appropriate for the group.)
Sean Mahoney
Walk out. It's pretty clear to me that the GM is not interested in anything but his plot and making your paladin fall. However... before doing that, take him aside and ask if he plans for your paladin to make a comeback. I doubt it, because killing a family member is pretty extreme, but maybe he's planning an epic quest for redemption and to destroy the demon. I know I would do that, but only with the cooperation of my player.
Yep, you do anything else other then take the deal. Organize a way to get some folks out and hold it off as long as ya can if you have no other option.
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Ok, let's review this.
I don't know his level, but he cast a spell on the barbarian that caused instant death (I think it was power word kill, but I can't say for sure.), so it's pretty high.
Did the barbarian knew it could happen ? Did the player even knew it could happen ?
Attacking someone that can kill us instantly with no save is not a good idea, so we need to bring in the help of a powerful outsider. He's agreed to make us more powerful, but unfortunately is a demon who wants something in return.
DING DING DING !
No pact with a demon. Ever. He's not gonna help you, like, ever.Unless you specify clear rules and the demon is doing a bargain of the style "you have 3 days to kill X individual, otherwise this pact will apply, if you win then I'll take X's soul and you will get YZ", you'll lose.
This brings up the first problem. I am a paladin. Can I even make a deal with the creature without violating the code of conduct? To make things worse, what the demon wants is my soul. Specifically, he demands that I fall from grace by killing my niece in front of him.
No-pact-with-a-demon. Such situation for a paladin is almost enforced as the RAW in addition to common sense.
Also, horrible DM trying to f**~ with the paladin to make him fall straight from the first session. It makes me honestly believe you could be a troll trying a style exercise in each thread, to provoke the most shocked faces and answers possible.If I don't, however, the BBEG isn't stopped and thousands die. Letting that happen when I could have prevented it is also a violation of the paladin's code of conduct. I've already asked the GM if there is another source of the power we need, and he says no, there isn't. So it's either accept and kill my niece, decline and kill thousands, or refuse any further contact with the demon and kill thousands.
The blood isn't on your hands, it's on the BBEGs's. The blood of your niece will. Also, unless he secretly has some secret reward plan if you were to take the good choice, your DM is a dick.
TL;DR : Refuse the demon's bargain. Leave with honor intact and a will to frag the BBEG later to avenge the fallen. Accessorily, find yourself REAL DAMN PLAYERS.
Become an Anti-paladin.
Or ride and warn as many people as you can. Maybe some of them can escape.
What if I told the demon no, then rode out to rile the thousands of locals in danger into grabbing scythes, picks, shovels, and whatever else is at hand and fighting? Would leading them into battle instead of getting them to flee be a bad thing for a paladin to do? A whole lot of them may die who could have survived by running. Then again, I think the BBEG might be able to cast 9th level spells. Is that enough power to take out a mob of over a thousand people?
As TOZ alludes, with a good GM, sometimes you can defeat the BBEG's plans without killing the BBEG. I'm thinking of the crazed druid whose plans TOZ and co. defeated by burning his house down and getting his cohorts arrested. I think they only killed one creature (a hillbilly crossbowman) during the entire adventure, but they left the BBEG's plans in total shambles.
This is actually pretty simple: the demon is evil and can't be trusted. You could deal with it for power, fall, and then just get laughed at instead of actually saving anyone. Further, you are not responsible for the actions of the BBEG; if it's not within your power to stop him, then do what you can to ameliorate the issue; evacuate civilians; start conducting guerrilla warfare against his minions; go on holy quests for ancient relics of your order; that sort of thing.
And if your GM has you fall for this choice, then I'd take that as a strong hint that either: 1) This GM is a jerk and you should find a different game, or 2) this GM doesn't understand paladins and you should make a character that doesn't have any sort of alignment or code-of-conduct restrictions.
What if I told the demon no, then rode out to rile the thousands of locals in danger into grabbing scythes, picks, shovels, and whatever else is at hand and fighting? Would leading them into battle instead of getting them to flee be a bad thing for a paladin to do? A whole lot of them may die who could have survived by running. Then again, I think the BBEG might be able to cast 9th level spells. Is that enough power to take out a mob of over a thousand people?
A single summoned monster with decent DR can kill a mob of any size -- millions of people, even. That's how the rules work -- armies aren't important; only personal power is. The people need to escape, not fight.
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Or ride and warn as many people as you can. Maybe some of them can escape.What if I told the demon no, then rode out to rile the thousands of locals in danger into grabbing scythes, picks, shovels, and whatever else is at hand and fighting? Would leading them into battle instead of getting them to flee be a bad thing for a paladin to do? A whole lot of them may die who could have survived by running. Then again, I think the BBEG might be able to cast 9th level spells. Is that enough power to take out a mob of over a thousand people?
Warning people would be a Good act. Leading them to their death unknowingly of them, a bit less.
Also, having considerations over your character's roleplay in this group is a bit like someone trying to know what he should wear to be pretty in the sewers.
Just curious, did you tell your players that you know about their ridiculous characters thanks to people more knowledgeable than them ? How did you explain your change of position ?
Ok, let's review this.
I don't know his level, but he cast a spell on the barbarian that caused instant death (I think it was power word kill, but I can't say for sure.), so it's pretty high.Did the barbarian knew it could happen ? Did the player even knew it could happen?
No. I'm actually not sympathetic to the barbarian. we didn't know is was the BBEG at the time, and there was no provocation for the barbarian's attack on him. It basically amounted to "You see a guy in a black cloak going about his business." "I ATTACK!". The BBEG also left us alone after smoking the barbarian. I am, however, scared s~!@less of anything that can one hit kill the biggest guy in the party.
If this supposed BBEG turns out to be a DMPC, I'm going to puke.
Just curious, did you tell your players that you know about their ridiculous characters thanks to people more knowledgeable than them ? How did you explain your change of position?
I let the new GM handle that. It was actually fun to watch. He made it clear that there would be no more b%#%!**@. We did lose a couple players, but with me and one of the new GM's friends the party is the same size as when I was GMing.
I think I should mention something I didn't say in the OP: the new GM so far isn't that bad. He seems to be strict with alignment and he doesn't tolerate shenanigans, but he doesn't seem to be trying to screw us. This thing with my paladin is the first issue I've had with him, and I really want to solve it in a novel manner.
I should also point out that the thing about my character knowing of no other way to defeat the BBEG was delivered in game by an NPC, not out of game, so it is possible that there is a solution that the GM won't drop me from grace for. I'm hoping that this is the case, and he isn't rying to screw me over, because so far he isn't that bad and I really want him to be a GM I can have fun with.
Or ride and warn as many people as you can. Maybe some of them can escape.What if I told the demon no, then rode out to rile the thousands of locals in danger into grabbing scythes, picks, shovels, and whatever else is at hand and fighting? Would leading them into battle instead of getting them to flee be a bad thing for a paladin to do? A whole lot of them may die who could have survived by running. Then again, I think the BBEG might be able to cast 9th level spells. Is that enough power to take out a mob of over a thousand people?
YES!!!!!Not only could he do it, he could do it by just smacking them in the face with his hand.. (9th Level spells means 16th level character at minimum). Heck for the demon to give you enough power to fight this guy he would have to give you the power to slay him...
It seems you are in a situation sucks.
The following variables apply to the decision making process.
1. Is you GM Following the rules as intended or even as written?
-->I would say no, the highest challenge rating usable by a GM an still have the PC's succeed (even Remotely) would be CR 6. That would be a 7th Level caster. Now I'm not positive but I don't know of a 4th level spell that is save or die. So as it stands you can not win the fight.
2. With the above variable we must determine if there is anything a demon could do that would up your groups power level for a duration of time by the rules.....Ummm...Ummmm...No, not really. Other than him summoning a demon to aid you I guess.
So with the above variables we realize that the game is not by the Rules as written or as intended. So the GM only using the rules as a guide.
Thats cool, however in this situation you character is 2nd level if you work with the demon for the greater good you will not be a paladin again for quite a while (as the atone spell is expensive and high level).
So if you want to play a paladin (and I can only assume that you do because you took the class) then you have no choice but to decline the offer.
If that means the party dies, well its the GM's fault for designing a bad adventure. However I willing to give the guy a chance, maybe the right answer is no, and the demon is an angel in disguise!!
If that is not the case and their is no way around this issue. Just Give up.
So it comes down to, Yes you have to say no, and leave it up to the ST. if it is a no win situation then the game is over. Second level characters should never be in NO WIN SITUATIONS. I learned that when I was 10....
So, I stopped GMing for my players and found a new person to do the job, and joined the ranks of the players. I'm currently a 2nd level paladin, and I've struck something of a problem RP wise.
We need to defeat a BBEG who's far more powerful than we are. I don't know his level, but he cast a spell on the barbarian that caused instant death (I think it was power word kill, but I can't say for sure.), so it's pretty high. Attacking someone that can kill us instantly with no save is not a good idea, so we need to bring in the help of a powerful outsider. He's agreed to make us more powerful, but unfortunately is a demon who wants something in return.
This brings up the first problem. I am a paladin. Can I even make a deal with the creature without violating the code of conduct? To make things worse, what the demon wants is my soul. Specifically, he demands that I fall from grace by killing my niece in front of him. If I do it, I just murdered a family member and broke the code of conduct in at least four different ways. If I don't, however, the BBEG isn't stopped and thousands die. Letting that happen when I could have prevented it is also a violation of the paladin's code of conduct. I've already asked the GM if there is another source of the power we need, and he says no, there isn't. So it's either accept and kill my niece, decline and kill thousands, or refuse any further contact with the demon and kill thousands.
What do I do? I have no doubt that if I make the wrong choice I will fall from grace. The GM has already shown himself to be very strict, especially on issues of codes of conduct. If I don't do whatever the right thing is by the code of conduct, I will have to spend a long time trying to get access to an atonement spell, and will be useless for several levels.
If the guy you're trying to fight is a greater evil then it doesn't break your code.
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Yea, I think I'll say no, then warn the villagers and ask who is willing to fight with me instead of fleeing. They will be told exactly what they face, so if they die, they died bravely and knowing full well what they were standing against.
I really, really want to give this GM a chance and hope my paladin isn't as screwed as she looks. So far he isn't too bad, especially compared to me.
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stuff...
1. Is you GM Following the rules as intended or even as written?
-->I would say no, the highest challenge rating usable by a GM an still have the PC's succeed (even Remotely) would be CR 6. That would be a 7th Level caster. Now I'm not positive but I don't know of a 4th level spell that is save or die. So as it stands you can not win the fight.
This struck me. The spell does not have to be save or die. Just save or take enough damage that a 2nd level character will die. Barbarian is gonna have what 24hp at 2nd level? How many 4th level spells can do that?
Anyway Phantasmal Killer is 4th level. That is save or die.
Fall, and fall hard. Go Antipaladin.
That, or walk away from the deal.
Church of ....., Dear high priest, there's this BBEG whose plans, while I'm not quite sure what they are, undoubtedly involve killing and maiming lots and lots of innocents. As this BBEG is WAY above my pay grade at this point, I thought I should point him out to you so that you can find someone more equal to his power level to send him to his diety. Preferably in pieces.
Yours Truly,
Kelsey
That is how you take care of someone when you are a novice and they are masters at their craft. Let the BBGGs know so they can at least keep an eye on them.
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Looks like the barbarian getting smoked was just the new DM's version of rocks fall-you die, then.
As said previously, maybe the GM has thought about some reward for you if you do the good thing and stay true to your character. Maybe the BBEG is indeed unstoppable, but his rise is only a way to make him fall harder in a handful lot of levels and after months of gaming.
If the DM has been pretty good until then and even cleared the table of the s~#%ty players, my advice would be to go full roleplay with "I shall never accept the trade with such a foul being, as his words can not and shall not be trusted. The demon which would make me take the life of an innocent to save those of a thousand others is not born, or he would promptly meet the edge of my weapon, be it a simple demon or the Lord of Evil ; as no good can come from an evil act and the blood that will be splattered will not be on my hands... but I shall seek vengeance and bear the weight of my own powerlessness, to nurtur the strength which will move my arm on the day I'll bring justice for the innocent by taking the head of the monster responsible of such abominable acts".
If the guy you're trying to fight is a greater evil then it doesn't break your code.
That's up to the ST, however at best you would lose you paladin abilities until you get an atonement spell. That still requires a 9th level priest and 500gp plus another 2500GP because it was a deliberate misdeed.
If the ST follows the WBL guidelines it will be several levels before one can get their paladin levels back. What fun is playing a 2nd level paladin that is not a paladin, or a 3rd level paladin that is not a paladin, or a 5th level paladin that is not a paladin. It would not be a good experience.
If done at later levels say 10-12 then there could be a good story, the gold is not as bad as a hit and it will not nuke the character.
Fall, and fall hard. Go Antipaladin.
That, or walk away from the deal.
Phantasmal killer is 4ht level and would fit with the 7th level caster. but a 7th level caster could wipe the party with two 3rd level spell and a rod of lessor quicken spell
Swift: Fireball take 7d6 24 damage save for half (12)
Standard: Fireball take 7d6 24 damage save for half (12)
have a nice day everyone dead.
That CR system needs work.....lol
In one game I was in we got in a fight with a 5th level priest, The fight lasted 10 rounds. However the ST flat out told us if he was playing fair we would all have died in round 2. But he realized that the encounter was too much for our level, and had no choice but to make the Priest really really dum. So the game could continue..Channel Energy dangerous. Never the less the party was out of spells, and most of us were useless by the he was taken down.
That happens
I'll chime with the others.
Flat out refuse to trade your integrity and do everything in your power to thwart the BBEG's plans and save innocent lives. In other words, be a true paladin!
'findel
Same.
There is always another way. And if there isn't, there is always a less jerk GM.
I see two courses of action:
1) Refuse the deal and go die a paladin*.
2) Accept the deal, fall, defeat the evil guy and then get yourself an atonment spell ASAP. Oh and take oath of vengence while you do that.
*Which don't get me wrong, i think that it's a great way for a paladin to die (assuming there was no other way)
*Which don't get me wrong, i think that it's a great way for a paladin to die (assuming there was no other way)When you go out, you go out in style.
Oh YYYYEEEEESSSSSSS
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I agree with most others here. Open door number 3 and save lives and live to fight another day.
IMHO, a paladin is required to do everything in his/or her power to defeat evil. This BBEG sounds outside your power level to me.
My advice: Be Lawful Smart. refuse the demon, evacuate those at ground zero, notify your superiors, and quest to get stronger.
that's the kind of d*ck move I would do to anyone who dared to play a paladin in my campaign. However I tell my players that I hate paladins beforehand, and that they will have a hard time.
My advice, do whatever you like, the GM should know there is no right way to do it, and he just wants to show you this, it would be cruel and unusual to punish you for this.
If it were me, I wouldn't make that deal, nomatter if I'm a paladin or a CN rogue. Nobody, not even the gods themselves can ask you to kill a family member. (of course christianity says different, but that was bluff and that guy called it)