What is rage-lance-pounce?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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SKR has said that it works. Historically, 3.0+, it works.

The only clarification is that you only get the multiple damage on the first hit of the iteratives, which really takes down the power some...but not all.

Still a good tactic, and it should be allowed.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Grimmy wrote:

So at this point where are we at exactly? In a game with no house rules, does this stuff work or not? Say in PFS?

Why do you ask this?

You have already been told that it doesn't work.

Silver Crusade

She’s ready to pounce!

If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)


I'm still hearing people on both sides of this. It's just nice when there's a consensus. As long as I know this trick is officially illegal I don't have to ban it as a houserule before I start a campaign.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Rules is, it works.

But only the first attack on an iterative with a lance gets the multiplier.

I wouldn't worry about it, the number of times you're going to get a lance attack in the average game you can probably count on one hand.

==Aelryinth


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Ride By Attack wrote:
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Spirited Charge wrote:
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).
darth_borehd wrote:
The mount is doing the charging and the barbarian is getting the bonus from the mount, not the other way around.

Head Explode!!!

Lance charge+crit+spirited charge= HOW MANY DICE DO I ROLL?


That depends. Are you Smiting this topic? Because you do x2 damage to necromancy

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

LordAwesome wrote:


Lance charge+crit+spirited charge= HOW MANY DICE DO I ROLL?

Lance - 1d8

Lance on a charge - 2d8

Lance with Spirited Charge - 3d8

Lance critting on a Spirited Charge - 5d8

Also of some note, they FAQ'd ragelancepounce back into existence. Just in case anyone missed it.


Ssalarn wrote:


Also of some note, they FAQ'd ragelancepounce back into existence. Just in case anyone missed it.

Are you deliberately misreading it to get "double damage lances are only on the first hit, but triple damage lances have no such restriction"?

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Casual Viking wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Also of some note, they FAQ'd ragelancepounce back into existence. Just in case anyone missed it.
Are you deliberately misreading it to get "double damage lances are only on the first hit, but triple damage lances have no such restriction"?

No, I'm saying you get a triple hit, and then you get however many more normal attacks your full attack allows, assuming you have Pounce. One of the quoted lines in the post I was responding to was repeating the reasoning that ragelancepounce was shut down originally (that the mount is the one charging, not the rider, so the rider can't use Pounce) which isn't true anymore.

Also, maybe next time try not to phrase your question in such an accusatory manner. It contributes to a really unfortunate atmosphere of negativity.


So, a centaur barbarian is basically the most terrifying thing in the world, is what I gather here. Aside from a wizard. ;D


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So, a centaur barbarian is basically the most terrifying thing in the world, is what I gather here. Aside from a wizard. ;D

Centaurs technically aren't mounted, so no.


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Actually, 3.5 counted centaurs as being mounted for the purposes of a lance charge. Checking, Pathfinder left this information out—most likely by an oversight, honestly, but there it is.

They did add it back in later, though. :)


Ssalarn wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Also of some note, they FAQ'd ragelancepounce back into existence. Just in case anyone missed it.
Are you deliberately misreading it to get "double damage lances are only on the first hit, but triple damage lances have no such restriction"?

No, I'm saying you get a triple hit, and then you get however many more normal attacks your full attack allows, assuming you have Pounce. One of the quoted lines in the post I was responding to was repeating the reasoning that ragelancepounce was shut down originally (that the mount is the one charging, not the rider, so the rider can't use Pounce) which isn't true anymore.

Also, maybe next time try not to phrase your question in such an accusatory manner. It contributes to a really unfortunate atmosphere of negativity.

That's not the true Ragelancepounce, which was a way of gaining triple damage on every hit of a full attack. Without that, its damage potential is only about half what it was - not much more powerful than an ordinary ragepounce.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

You still get almost twice as much damage as anyone else, sooo......

Community Manager

A reminder to keep it civil, please.


Ssalarn wrote:
You still get almost twice as much damage as anyone else, sooo......

Yeah, it's still a pounce where the first hit does triple damage, and then you get the rest of your full attack.


And since a pounce with a two handed weapon is typically around 3-5 attacks anyway adding another two attacks worth of damage is still madness.


I've never understood all the arguing over this. It clearly states under Mounted Combat in the Core Rulebook that "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." It also seems that the grammar of the entry continually refers to a single attack when charging. I believe it's a homerule to allow the rider to make a pounce at the end of a charge, not the other way around.


Sepherum wrote:
I've never understood all the arguing over this. It clearly states under Mounted Combat in the Core Rulebook that "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." It also seems that the grammar of the entry continually refers to a single attack when charging. I believe it's a homerule to allow the rider to make a pounce at the end of a charge, not the other way around.

It also says immediately after that:

"Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack".

Going by the above, it is fairly clear that the basis for the 1 attack only text is that you aren't able to make a full attack because you don't have time to do so after the mount moves. With Pounce this is clearly no longer the case(if the mount has time to make a pounce attack given that it has pounce, the rider should too).

Besides, the Lance pounce FAQ implicitly says mounted pouncing works, so it works. No house ruling involved.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem is the lance. you've traded away your ability to pounce, as well as the mount's attacks for getting that one shot uber damage reach attack hit with the lance.

Rage Lance Pounce. Pick one or two... you can't have all three.


LazarX wrote:

The problem is the lance. you've traded away your ability to pounce, as well as the mount's attacks for getting that one shot uber damage reach attack hit with the lance.

Rage Lance Pounce. Pick one or two... you can't have all three.

No you haven't.

You still have the iterative attacks from the lance so you still have pounce.

At best you lose the mounts full attacks which might not even matter. But, in case they do Lunge is available to most pets at 10th character level which is conveinielty when pounce starts showing up on characters more regularly.


LazarX wrote:

The problem is the lance. you've traded away your ability to pounce, as well as the mount's attacks for getting that one shot uber damage reach attack hit with the lance.

Rage Lance Pounce. Pick one or two... you can't have all three.

There is an FAQ that clearly indicates that you are wrong and that RAGELANCEPOUNCE works.

FAQ wrote:

Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

This FAQ only makes sense if charging lance iteratives from pounce are legal by RAW.


Here's my understanding of the rules:

1) At 10th level, a barbarian takes Greater Beast Totem as a rage power. This gives pounce.
2) Pounce lets you make a full attack action at the end of your charge.
3) FAQ clarifies pounce and makes it clear you get your full iterative attack at the end of pounce, regardless of weapon.
4) Spirited Charge lets you do triple damage with a lance as part of a charge action.
5) FAQ clarifies mounted charge and makes it clear that if you're mounted and your mount charges then you're charging. It also states that you only get bonus charge damage for lances and spirited charge on your first attack.

So, let's say you have an 11th level barbarian who is dual-wielding lances +2, using power attack, is raging, has an effective strength score of 30 (18 base, +2 race, +2 leveling up, +4 rage, +4 belt), has weapon focus (lance), two weapon fighting, and improved two weapon fighting.

Your to-hit should be: +19 (+11 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 2 charge + 2 enhancement + 10 strength, -4 two-weapon fighting, -3 power attack ) / +19 / + 14 / + 14 / +9

Your damage on the first attack should be 3d8+78 (+15 strength, +9 power attack, +2 enhancement, all trippled).

Your damage on the rest of your primary hand should should be 1d8+26.

Your damage on the rest of your off-hand should be 1d8+10 (assuming that an off-hand two-handed weapon gets power attack and strength like it's an off-handed weapon and not a two-handed weapon).

Now, I'm probably wrong somewhere and I'd love to be corrected.


Snowblind wrote:
Sepherum wrote:
I've never understood all the arguing over this. It clearly states under Mounted Combat in the Core Rulebook that "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." It also seems that the grammar of the entry continually refers to a single attack when charging. I believe it's a homerule to allow the rider to make a pounce at the end of a charge, not the other way around.

It also says immediately after that:

"Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack".

Going by the above, it is fairly clear that the basis for the 1 attack only text is that you aren't able to make a full attack because you don't have time to do so after the mount moves. With Pounce this is clearly no longer the case(if the mount has time to make a pounce attack given that it has pounce, the rider should too).

Besides, the Lance pounce FAQ implicitly says mounted pouncing works, so it works. No house ruling involved.

Yeah, I read that too- but the entry is for subjects who are mounted. Clearly there are different rules for making attacks while on a steed. Pounce in the Bestiary doesn't mention riders one way or the other. The FAQ got it wrong on this, imho.


Sepherum wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Sepherum wrote:
I've never understood all the arguing over this. It clearly states under Mounted Combat in the Core Rulebook that "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." It also seems that the grammar of the entry continually refers to a single attack when charging. I believe it's a homerule to allow the rider to make a pounce at the end of a charge, not the other way around.

It also says immediately after that:

"Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack".

Going by the above, it is fairly clear that the basis for the 1 attack only text is that you aren't able to make a full attack because you don't have time to do so after the mount moves. With Pounce this is clearly no longer the case(if the mount has time to make a pounce attack given that it has pounce, the rider should too).

Besides, the Lance pounce FAQ implicitly says mounted pouncing works, so it works. No house ruling involved.

Yeah, I read that too- but the entry is for subjects who are mounted. Clearly there are different rules for making attacks while on a steed. Pounce in the Bestiary doesn't mention riders one way or the other. The FAQ got it wrong on this, imho.

The FAQ defines the rules, though, and does frequently change them outright.


MeanMutton wrote:

Here's my understanding of the rules:

1) At 10th level, a barbarian takes Greater Beast Totem as a rage power. This gives pounce.
2) Pounce lets you make a full attack action at the end of your charge.
3) FAQ clarifies pounce and makes it clear you get your full iterative attack at the end of pounce, regardless of weapon.
4) Spirited Charge lets you do triple damage with a lance as part of a charge action.
5) FAQ clarifies mounted charge and makes it clear that if you're mounted and your mount charges then you're charging. It also states that you only get bonus charge damage for lances and spirited charge on your first attack.

So, let's say you have an 11th level barbarian who is dual-wielding lances +2, using power attack, is raging, has an effective strength score of 30 (18 base, +2 race, +2 leveling up, +4 rage, +4 belt), has weapon focus (lance), two weapon fighting, and improved two weapon fighting.

Your to-hit should be: +19 (+11 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 2 charge + 2 enhancement + 10 strength, -4 two-weapon fighting, -3 power attack ) / +19 / + 14 / + 14 / +9

Your damage on the first attack should be 3d8+78 (+15 strength, +9 power attack, +2 enhancement, all trippled).

Your damage on the rest of your primary hand should should be 1d8+26.

Your damage on the rest of your off-hand should be 1d8+10 (assuming that an off-hand two-handed weapon gets power attack and strength like it's an off-handed weapon and not a two-handed weapon).

Now, I'm probably wrong somewhere and I'd love to be corrected.

The only problem you have is that as a reach weapon you'd have to be holding another reach weapon in order to have off hand attacks.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:

Here's my understanding of the rules:

1) At 10th level, a barbarian takes Greater Beast Totem as a rage power. This gives pounce.
2) Pounce lets you make a full attack action at the end of your charge.
3) FAQ clarifies pounce and makes it clear you get your full iterative attack at the end of pounce, regardless of weapon.
4) Spirited Charge lets you do triple damage with a lance as part of a charge action.
5) FAQ clarifies mounted charge and makes it clear that if you're mounted and your mount charges then you're charging. It also states that you only get bonus charge damage for lances and spirited charge on your first attack.

So, let's say you have an 11th level barbarian who is dual-wielding lances +2, using power attack, is raging, has an effective strength score of 30 (18 base, +2 race, +2 leveling up, +4 rage, +4 belt), has weapon focus (lance), two weapon fighting, and improved two weapon fighting.

Your to-hit should be: +19 (+11 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 2 charge + 2 enhancement + 10 strength, -4 two-weapon fighting, -3 power attack ) / +19 / + 14 / + 14 / +9

Your damage on the first attack should be 3d8+78 (+15 strength, +9 power attack, +2 enhancement, all trippled).

Your damage on the rest of your primary hand should should be 1d8+26.

Your damage on the rest of your off-hand should be 1d8+10 (assuming that an off-hand two-handed weapon gets power attack and strength like it's an off-handed weapon and not a two-handed weapon).

Now, I'm probably wrong somewhere and I'd love to be corrected.

The only problem you have...

lances can be held in one hand while mounted. i know it's like the most broken thing ever... but thems the rules.


That's not the issue. The issue is that it's a reach weapon.

So your charge stops 10ft. out from your mount. That's why I suggest Lung on mounts that don't naturally have reach.


TarkXT wrote:

That's not the issue. The issue is that it's a reach weapon.

So your charge stops 10ft. out from your mount. That's why I suggest Lung on mounts that don't naturally have reach.

Rideby attack might help that.


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Ragelancepounce isn't that bad. I had a player in a 3.5 game that was the original ragelancepouncer frenzied berserker shock trooper shenanigans. The whole nine and 1/2 yards of burst damage, and that damage was tripled on every hit, not just the first.

BMX Bandit had his day.

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