What is rage-lance-pounce?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I am gonna disagree, I don't think pounce works while mounted. You are free to rule other wise. I will allow the charge, I will not allow the pounce, they are not the same thing.
If that's a houserule you want to implement in your game that's fine. If you're saying that's how you see the rules as written working you'll have to come up with a reason as to why not.

This isn't a rules form. I wouldn't not allow pounce to be used while mounted even if it where however. To me pounce is about putting your whole body into the attack, which you can't do mounted. Until I see something in the rules that says pounce can be used while mounted it can't be.

In my games I would not allow it, nor at any table I ran. Others will rule it different. More power to em.


I think we're getting at the problem of viewing PF as a permissive rule set. It's kind of both at different times. It never says you can power attack and cleave, which is a question I get time and time again from players (hint: you can) but interpreting PF as a strictly permissive set of rules you wouldn't be able to.

@Seeker, I respect your decision in your games to disallow that. I'm tempted to agree. However I'd make sure that players know that before they made a character in my game, not pull the rug out from under them once they got it to work.


I would as soon as it came up. Stuff like this is why you should always run stuff by your GM before you pull it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I would as soon as it came up. Stuff like this is why you should always run stuff by your GM before you pull it.

I agree that the AM build is an extreme example, but what about just the idea of pouncing while mounted? Not only is it pretty solidly legal but it sounds like a fun mounted barbarian concept.

At what point do you run something by your GM? The moment you think it might not utterly suck? Assuming that cheesiness is subjective, what sort of logical rules can we put in place to make sure that it doesn't happen? Asking permission before every character choice is absurd, as is asserting that the player's opinion trumps the GM. But if you don't know it's broke til you see it, and if once you see it it's too late, what's the solution?


Well as soon as you say "Pounce" that seems to be iffy. If it can be taken more then one way, run it by them. And RAW or no Pouncing while mounted is something that can be taken more then one way.

If I see it and think it is "broken" I ask them to change it. If this means changing feats or redoing magic items or skills or the like, so be it.

Now it would be kinda a dick move to disallow something and not allow a rework if it was a key part of the "build"


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What's with this "AM" meme? Where did that come from, and what is it supposed to mean?


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Well as soon as you say "Pounce" that seems to be iffy. If it can be taken more then one way, run it by them. And RAW or no Pouncing while mounted is something that can be taken more then one way.

If I see it and think it is "broken" I ask them to change it. If this means changing feats or redoing magic items or skills or the like, so be it.

Now it would be kinda a dick move to disallow something and not allow a rework if it was a key part of the "build"

The problem to me about that is that GMs are flawed, too. As has been mentioned (in this thread or the other one? they're beginning to blend) 3.5 Loyalist was advocating disallowing multiple sneak attacks per round because it was cheesy and broken.

What I'm advocating is that you let the play something, assuming it's legal, and see how it interacts with the system. Just as people always harp on theorycrafters for not having all the answers, this is just the GM "theorycrafting" as to the power of a build without seeing it in action.

I'm saying that the better path to take is to reserve judgement rather than a jerk of the knee. And that talking to the player about the power of his build and working something out is more conducive to fun than the banhammer.

Not to suggest you were saying anything contrary, mind you, just that I see this as a potential slippery slope.


Yes GM 's are flawed as are some players :) To me its as simple as "I do not think it does what you think it does" It isn't a knee jerk to the amount of damage or anything.


Should pounce work while you're mounted? Probably not, but does it work by RAW? Yes it does.


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Black_Lantern wrote:
Should pounce work while you're mounted? Probably not, but does it work by RAW? Yes it does.

Please show me.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Zaister wrote:
What's with this "AM" meme? Where did that come from, and what is it supposed to mean?

AM Barbarian meme started on another thread where Trinam built a barbarian that could go around one shotting casters and they couldn't stop him. He posts in all caps and with horrible grammar.

Hilarity has ensued as caster lovers line up to try and stop him.

==Aelryinth


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aelryinth wrote:
Hilarity has ensued as caster lovers line up to try and stop him.

Does he fly?


Mounted Combat Rules wrote:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

The mounted combat rules clearly state that you are charging while on horseback, and pounce allows a full attack while charging.

Please note that there are no rules for casting spells while wearing a hat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Zaister wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Hilarity has ensued as caster lovers line up to try and stop him.
Does he fly?

He flies around on BATTY BAT. Who was originally a horse morphed into a dire bat, became a dragon for awhile, then a leadership Awakened Dire Bat, and is now a synthesist summoner in dire bat form with a fly speed of at least 200.

So yeah, he flies. Does on avg 3d8+150 when charging with his Lance That Pierce The Sky.

So, RAGELANCEPOUNCE.

===Aelryinth


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Well, I'm on the side of not allowing either the mounted charge / pounce combo nor the use of iterative attacks with the pounce ability, so I'm not afraid of him.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, the rules are against you, so don't meet him in a RAW game :)

==Aelryinth


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't care for "RAW" if it's obviously intended differently and is that obviously abusive. And I don't have to since I'm usually the GM and there's no rules police coming to my door to arrest me if I don't conform to the letter of the rules. You can call it "house rule" or whatever you want. I call it common sense.

Actually I would probably walk away from any GM's table who let themselves fool into allowing this kind of nonsense.

Besides, what is "RAW" is subject to different interpretations in many cases.


Unless the GM in a RAW game asks" Where does it say you can pounce on a mounted charge?"


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

As I said, subject to interpretation. One might even go as far as saying that there is no such thing as "RAW".

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Unless the GM in a RAW game asks" Where does it say you can pounce on a mounted charge?"

Where does it say you can't?

And Pounce is explicitly and only usable on a charge. I don't see anything in Pounce saying it is restricted to infantry. Or flying. Or anything.

==+Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Unless the GM in a RAW game asks" Where does it say you can pounce on a mounted charge?"

Where does it say you can't?

And Pounce is explicitly and only usable on a charge. I don't see anything in Pounce saying it is restricted to infantry. Or flying. Or anything.

==+Aelryinth

Charge and mounted charge are not the same thing. You are using a mounted charge, I have yet to see anything that says it works with a mounted charge, so its the GM's call.

Shadow Lodge

*looks at his popcorn bucket* Dang, I'm out.


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Okay. Simple logic here. Let's try this.

Mounted combat lets you charge while on a horse.
Pounce says you get a full attack when you charge.
Therefore you can pounce while on a horse.

You can full attack when you charge with pounce, so if you say you can't pounce while on a horse that means you can't charge while on a horse since you can full attack whenever you charge.

If you can't charge while on a horse then the mounted combat rules are nonsensical.

So your options are:
A)You can pounce while mounted.
B)You cannot charge while mounted.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Unless the GM in a RAW game asks" Where does it say you can pounce on a mounted charge?"

Where does it say you can't?

And Pounce is explicitly and only usable on a charge. I don't see anything in Pounce saying it is restricted to infantry. Or flying. Or anything.

==+Aelryinth

Charge and mounted charge are not the same thing. You are using a mounted charge, I have yet to see anything that says it works with a mounted charge, so its the GM's call.

I've seen nothing that says you can cast spells while wearing a hat, so it's a DM's call.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
meatrace wrote:
I've seen nothing that says you can cast spells while wearing a hat, so it's a DM's call.

I'd never allow it.

Shadow Lodge

Hat-casting is broken.


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There's nothing in the rules that allow characters to breathe, either. There's rules for choosing not to breathe, for needing to breathe and not being able to, and for not needing to breathe, but no one has permission to breathe. Ergo, every non-Outsider, non-Construct, non-Plant, non-Undead PC automatically dies before character creation is over.


meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Unless the GM in a RAW game asks" Where does it say you can pounce on a mounted charge?"

Where does it say you can't?

And Pounce is explicitly and only usable on a charge. I don't see anything in Pounce saying it is restricted to infantry. Or flying. Or anything.

==+Aelryinth

Charge and mounted charge are not the same thing. You are using a mounted charge, I have yet to see anything that says it works with a mounted charge, so its the GM's call.
I've seen nothing that says you can cast spells while wearing a hat, so it's a DM's call.

So is not being able to take actions while dead. RAW doesn't say I can't take actions.


meatrace wrote:

Okay. Simple logic here. Let's try this.

Mounted combat lets you charge while on a horse.
Pounce says you get a full attack when you charge.
Therefore you can pounce while on a horse.

You can full attack when you charge with pounce, so if you say you can't pounce while on a horse that means you can't charge while on a horse since you can full attack whenever you charge.

If you can't charge while on a horse then the mounted combat rules are nonsensical.

So your options are:
A)You can pounce while mounted.
B)You cannot charge while mounted.

C) Allow you to charge on a horse but not allow the pounce while mounted.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
meatrace wrote:

Okay. Simple logic here. Let's try this.

Mounted combat lets you charge while on a horse.
Pounce says you get a full attack when you charge.
Therefore you can pounce while on a horse.

How do you consolidate that with the following?

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."

I see nothing that overrides this restriction.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There's no rule that even requires a character to sleep at all. Still doesn't mean you can just keep going.

There's also no rule that says I can't charge or pounce or full-attack when sleeping. Still doesn't mean you can.

And on that note, good night.

Shadow Lodge

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Ravingdork wrote:


How do you consolidate that with the following?

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."

Specific rules override general rules.


TOZ wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


How do you consolidate that with the following?

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."

Specific rules override general rules.

Except ya know it never says it over rules it. Some folks just assume it does.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TOZ wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


How do you consolidate that with the following?

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."

Specific rules override general rules.

Than I guess ragelancepounce fails. My quoted section appears once. Pounce is all over the place. Which rule is the more specific rule then, hm?

Seriously though, "specific overrides general" is a cop out answer and you know it.

EDIT: And what seekerofshadowlight said.

Shadow Lodge

Actually, it does.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Seriously though, "specific overrides general" is a cop out answer and you know it.

You asked how we consolidate it. (Did you mean 'reconcile', by the way?)

I'm sorry you can't consolidate it. Doesn't mean we can't.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ooooh the Caster Defense League in full swing!


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TOZ wrote:
Actually, it does.

Except it doesn't.

Pounce means you can make a full attack at the end of a charge. What it DOESN'T say is that you can make multiple attacks when your mount moves more than 5 feet.

You are applying an apple ability to an orange rule. They don't interact. There is no overlap.

Pounce does not relieve you of mounted combat's restrictions.

EDIT: Yes, I meant to say reconcile.

Shadow Lodge

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When your mount charges, you charge.

You can full attack at the end of a charge with pounce.

Thus, with pounce you can full attack at the end of a mounted charge.


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TOZ wrote:

When your mount charges, you charge.

You can full attack at the end of a charge with pounce.

Thus, with pounce you can full attack at the end of a mounted charge.

Sure you could--if you can find a way to get past the restriction I noted above.

Shadow Lodge

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Pounce. Mounted Combat is the general rule. Pounce is a special ability. A specific rule.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
Pounce. Mounted Combat is the general rule. Pounce is a special ability. A specific rule.

I see your valorous charge against a windmill, and I raise you a glass of slivovitz. Man, and I though *I* am an expert in hopeless fights...


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Specific only overrides general when there is interaction involved.

A feat that loosens combat restrictions has no effect on spellcasting restrictions, for example.

Pounce loosens charge restrictions, NOT mounted combat restrictions. It's a totally different section of the book.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
Specific only overrides general when there is interaction involved.

Both rules are used to determine how many attacks you can make in a round. There is your interaction.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TOZ wrote:

Both rules are used to determine how many attacks you can make in a round. There is your interaction.

Oh? Where does it say that? I thought one allowed you to make a full attack on a charge and one restricted you to a single attack if you mount moves more than five feet. The latter rule has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with charging, and therefore has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with pounce. No. Interaction. Your specific over general principle does not apply.


TOZ you have it backward.

Pounce is a general rule for charge.
The 5' movement one is a specific rule for mounted charges.

Nothing in Pounce over rides that rule.


Quote:
If you can't charge while on a horse then the mounted combat rules are nonsensical.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It seems crystal clear to me that a "charge", as in charging on foot and "mounted charge" are two different things. Why else would they have Ride-by-Attack and Spring Attack as otherwise identical feats?

James Jacobs made it clear that Pounce is only for natural attacks. This makes sense with the Beast Totem Lesser granting two claw attacks.

I maintain that Rage-Lance-Pounce is simply not possible within the RAW.


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seekerofshadowlight wrote:

TOZ you have it backward.

Pounce is a general rule for charge.
The 5' movement one is a specific rule for mounted charges.

Nothing in Pounce over rides that rule.

Not quite. The 5' movement one is a specific rule for mounted combat. Period. Doesn't matter if you are charging, moving and attacking, or whatever else.


Mounted Combat Rules wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

There is your interaction. Mounted characters can't make a full attack if there mount moves, pouncing characters can make a full attack if they charge.

There are no rules for casting while wearing a hat.

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