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I have a question about this Alchemist spell:
This extract causes a pale aura to emanate from your mouth.
If you consume a potion or elixir on the round following the consumption of this extract, you can spit it back into its container as a free action. You gain all the benefits of the potion or elixir, but it is not consumed. You can only gain the benefits of one potion or elixir in this way per use of this extract.
Last night I ran a Pathfinder module as a PFS session (Realm of the Feynight Queen). One of my players leveled up his Feral Mutagen level 7 Alchemist and, with the additional gold he received as part of the level up, purchased some potions; namely: potion of barkskin (CL 12; 1200 gps), potion of greater magic fang (CL 12; 1800 gps), and a potion of stoneskin (CL 12; 1800 gps). He devoted all 5 of his second level spells to Alchemical Allocation.
He then proceed to superman up using these potions during combat. The magic fang gave him +3 attack, +3 damage; the stoneskin DR 10/adamantine and 120 points of damage soak, and the barkskin added 5 to his AC (which, it seems, stacks with his feral mutagen +2 feral mutagen natural AC). Combine in a Shield extract and he's sitting on a AC of 31.
He then proceeded to annihilate the poor CR 4-6 monsters with a combination of bombs, claws, very high AC, and, when I did manage to get him, stoneskin unassailability. He got to do the same trick two more times that day (never really fully consuming the potions - that's the awesomeness of Alchemical Allocation), and, after rest that night, woke up and did it all over again.
My conclusion: nearly permanent +3 weapon, DR 10 adamantine, and a +5 amulet of natural armor all for the low, low price of 1800+1800+1200 == 4800 GPS. A steal?
So: broken, or not? I can find no other real discussions about this spell other than this Paizo thread, where a poster says "Yeah, should be up for errata", but without any official conclusion.
thank you!
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I don't think it's broken. For one he has to sepnd 3 standard actions taking the potions. So for three rounds he is not doing much beyond drinking and maybe moving his character and spitting the potions back into a container. He also has to have 3 containers to spit them back into. It's not like drink all 3 spit back into one vial. He also has to be in a spot that has some sort of cover and against a non-intelligent monster. If for example he is fight with a bunch of hobgoblins they are not going to just let him power up and not do anything about it. Unless of course he is towards the rear of a party and in cover. Area affect attacks are also your freind. Let's see how well those alechemical vials last to a breath attack or fireball. Last but not least it is a 4800 gp cost. Unless your playing with a party that has a lot of money with players willing to allocating that much for one character well it's not going to happen very often.
edit: make that four standard action as I thought that AA was a feat not a spell
Its a very good spell, it practically makes the alchemist class.
Shield pretty much has to be cast in combat, so thats a round wasted where he's not shredding things. Why is he getting time to drink all of these during combat? (he should drink the hour per level ones up before...)
Is his damage output really higher than the two handed sword swinger?
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He's definitely drinking some potions before combat and in the surprise round. The Greater Magic Fang is 12 hrs duration, so yeah that is up 24/7.
Re: potion drinking: forgot to mention he has the Accelerated Drinker trait which allows him to drink his potions as move actions and not standard actions ("Benefit: You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard action as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.").
Re: damage output, his damage is more distributed around multiple opponents, and with the ranged there is a lot more options for combat. I'm less worried about combat (although having a perma +3 weapon on Dr. Jackyl for the price of 1800 gps does seem low), and more about the AC and DR. Or the nearly endless arsenal of interesting potions that a cash flush PFS player can eventually accrue.
Let's see how well those alechemical vials last to a breath attack or fireball
Fireball will actually destroy objects on your person? And not just do HP damage?
But in the end however, I think that the "You can only gain the benefits of one potion or elixir in this way per use of this extract" clause balances it. After all, he still needs to use move actions to switch potions, doesn't he?
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Fireball will actually destroy objects on your person? And not just do HP damage?
I'm assuming he has the potions out in the open. Either on himself or his belt. So getting hit by a fireball runs the chance of having the vials damaged or destroyed.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fireball
It does not say target items on a person yet imo if it can melt metal why not glass vials. If he is behind partial or full ocver then no. If the character is standing out in the open then why not.
Still from what I have read of the player using the Aclchemist so far you mayeb screwed as he has optmized his character to be the perfect Alchemist. Requires a whole new set of tactics or encounters built around that.
The irony is that in my game I also have a player using the Alchemist and is underusing him. so in love with the Bomb feature he neglects to use poitions on himself let alone buff himself. Which is fiune by me. If a player wants to underuse his character less of a headach for me.
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Last night I ran a Pathfinder module as a PFS session (Realm of the Feynight Queen). One of my players leveled up his Feral Mutagen level 7 Alchemist and, with the additional gold he received as part of the level up, purchased some potions; namely: potion of barkskin (CL 12; 1200 gps), potion of greater magic fang (CL 12; 1800 gps), and a potion of stoneskin (CL 12; 1800 gps). He devoted all 5 of his second level spells to Alchemical Allocation.
Ok, first off let me quote something from the PFS Guide to Organized Play (Since you mentioned you ran it as PFS).
Potions, Scrolls and Wands
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables
are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder
Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells
that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For
example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as
a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If
a spell appears at different levels on two different lists,
use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example,
poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of
a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are
available only at minimum caster level unless found at a
higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
1) Unless he had a chronicle with all of those potions listed at being a CL 12, that was an illegal purchase for him. Doesn't matter if its a sanctioned module, you'd still have to follow the basic rules of PFS.
2) Potions can only hold 3rd lvl or lower spells. Stoneskin is a 4th lvl spell for wizards, which means you cannot buy potions of it in PFS. (Summoners have it as a 3rd lvl spell, but as the text above states all items are made by the 3 base classes, unless the spell is not on one of their lists. So in PFS Stoneskin has to be made by wizards.)
Now, had this NOT been PFS, then yeah this would have been a valid tactic. Its kind of sick, but like others have said it uses a lot of the alchemist's actions, so not wise to do it in combat. But for those long duration spells its nice.
But in the end however, I think that the "You can only gain the benefits of one potion or elixir in this way per use of this extract" clause balances it. After all, he still needs to use move actions to switch potions, doesn't he?
No. He's casting Alchemical allocation multiple times, each time lets one more potion work.
Re: damage output, his damage is more distributed around multiple opponents, and with the ranged there is a lot more options for combat. I'm less worried about combat (although having a perma +3 weapon on Dr. Jackyl for the price of 1800 gps does seem low), and more about the AC and DR. Or the nearly endless arsenal of interesting potions that a cash flush PFS player can eventually accrue.
You might just be running into a case where PFS's potion rules and cash allotment are just more advantageous for some players than others.
Even with move actions, it takes an action to drink an extract, then another to swish the potion. Multiply that times 5...
You may also have NPCs comment on just how gross that behaviour is!
my alchemist carries a bucket for that purpose, and makes sure to have a strainer and some fresh mint to add after each recycling... especially after he's lent the alchemical allocation out via the infusion discovery.
He also loves not telling the party ranger which of his potioins have been "lent" to gnolls in that fashion.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Last night I ran a Pathfinder module as a PFS session (Realm of the Feynight Queen). One of my players leveled up his Feral Mutagen level 7 Alchemist and, with the additional gold he received as part of the level up, purchased some potions; namely: potion of barkskin (CL 12; 1200 gps), potion of greater magic fang (CL 12; 1800 gps), and a potion of stoneskin (CL 12; 1800 gps). He devoted all 5 of his second level spells to Alchemical Allocation.
Your player (and you) need to read the PFS rules more thoroughly. He has seriously broken the potion purchasing rules.
Read Eric's post above.
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Even with move actions, it takes an action to drink an extract, then another to swish the potion. Multiply that times 5...
Is that right? The way I read the accelerated drinker trait+alchemical allocation is: 1) alchemist moves, and drinks the potion as part of his moving action, 2) alchemist spits the potion back into the vial it came from as a free action, and 3) alchemist does whatever as a standard action.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Even with move actions, it takes an action to drink an extract, then another to swish the potion. Multiply that times 5...Is that right? The way I read the accelerated drinker trait+alchemical allocation is: 1) alchemist moves, and drinks the potion as part of his moving action, 2) alchemist spits the potion back into the vial it came from as a free action, and 3) alchemist does whatever as a standard action.
Alchemical allocation is a standard action to use.
With accelerated drinker, drinking a potion is a move action so long as *he already has the potion in hand*, it usually takes another move action to pull the potion out.So it is at best a move+standard to do AA+Potion. More commonly it will be two moves plus a standard.
Is that right? The way I read the accelerated drinker trait+alchemical allocation is: 1) alchemist moves, and drinks the potion as part of his moving action, 2) alchemist spits the potion back into the vial it came from as a free action, and 3) alchemist does whatever as a standard action.
If something is a move equivalent action it takes the place of your movement action (or your standard action), its not done during it.
So round 1 Standard action: "cast" the alchemical allocation
Move action: Drink the potion.
Free action: spit the poison back out
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Is that right? The way I read the accelerated drinker trait+alchemical allocation is: 1) alchemist moves, and drinks the potion as part of his moving action, 2) alchemist spits the potion back into the vial it came from as a free action, and 3) alchemist does whatever as a standard action.
"You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand."
Note "As a move action", not as part of one. You also have to have the potion in hand at the start of your turn.
If something is a move equivalent action it takes the place of your movement action (or your standard action), its not done during it.
So round 1 Standard action: "cast" the alchemical allocation
Move action: Drink the potion.
Free action: spit the poison back out
Assuming you have to potion in hand at the beginning of your turn this is correct. It's a second move action to retrieve the potion though.
Where Alchemical Allocation gets really nutty (although this is not in PFS) is when you can make an Elixir of Life...
2nd level extract slot to cast a contingent resurrection on self?
YES PLEASE.
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Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies, I feel like I understand this much better now, and agree that it doesn't seem to be entirely broken due the amount of time it takes to use.
If I were to nerf it, I'd make it so that you could only have one allocation active at a time, ever. or make several levels of the spell (lesser, greater) that determine how high a spell you can use with it; ie, the 2nd level A.A. lets you do spell level 3/CL 9 or less; level 4 A. A. is spell level 6/CL 12; level 5 A.A.is spell level 9/CL 15 or less; etc.
Another viewpoint: How many potions of each kind does he have, and how many encounters do you run per day?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies, I feel like I understand this much better now, and agree that it doesn't seem to be entirely broken due the amount of time it takes to use.
The bigger thing IMO is the caster level. So long as he is using PFS legal potions his potions would be locked at caster level 3 and 5 which is more appropriate for his character level. No +3 greater magic fang.
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Another viewpoint: How many potions of each kind does he have, and how many encounters do you run per day?
He's got one of each of the potions I listed at the top of the thread. Typically 2-3 encounters per day, but it all really depends on what we're playing at the moment.
The bigger thing IMO is the caster level. So long as he is using PFS legal potions his potions would be locked at caster level 3 and 5 which is more appropriate for his character level.
yeah, totally agree.
Another viewpoint: How many potions of each kind does he have, and how many encounters do you run per day?He's got one of each of the potions I listed at the top of the thread. Typically 2-3 encounters per day, but it all really depends on what we're playing at the moment.
How the hell can he pull that stunt in every encounter then?
How the hell can he pull that stunt in every encounter then?
Greater magic fang lasts hour per level. So if he wakes up, has breakfast, and drinks it at 8 am he's good till 8 pm.
I get the impression that pathfinder society scenarios tend to take place within a few hours, so the 10 min per level barkskin and stoneskin should last through 2 hours of the adventure.
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Greater magic fang lasts hour per level. So if he wakes up, has breakfast, and drinks it at 8 am he's good till 8 pm.
I get the impression that pathfinder society scenarios tend to take place within a few hours, so the 10 min per level barkskin and stoneskin should last through 2 hours of the adventure.
Although as stated, the stoneskin is not legal. Greater Magic Fang is still legal, and a potion in PFS should last 5 hours.
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He then proceed to superman up using these potions during combat. The magic fang gave him +3 attack, +3 damage; the stoneskin DR 10/adamantine and 120 points of damage soak, and the barkskin added 5 to his AC (which, it seems, stacks with his feral mutagen +2 feral mutagen natural AC). Combine in a Shield extract and he's sitting on a AC of 31.
Something else I just got to thinking about... Was he applying the +3 to all three of his natural attacks? The spell only allows for one attack at +3 or all natural attacks at +1. Anyway, just wondered if he had "forgotten" about that too.
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The keys to this problem are the PFS potion rules and the Accelerated Drinker trait.
As others have stated, PFS rules say all store-bought potions function at the minimum caster level.
As Dennis pointed out, Accelerated Drinker requires you to have the potion in your hand.
So this alchemist's (optimal) in-combat sequence is this:
Step 0, before combat, carry the potion you want to use in your hand.
Round 1, drink your alchemical allocation extract as a standard action. Drink the potion as a move action. Spit the potion back into the flask as a free action.
Round 2, drink your second alchemical allocation extract as a standard action. Put away your first potion as a move action (you wouldn't want to drop and break it, right?).
Round 3, draw your second potion as a standard or move action. Drink your second potion as a move or standard action. Spit the potion back into the flask as a free action.
Round 4, fight! Note that he's still holding the potion flask in one hand, so he has to either drop it as a free action or not use that hand to fight.
If he's not carrying the potion he wants to use before the combat, that slows down this procedure by one move action (to draw it). If he's acting in a surprise round, that slows him down by one move action because he can only take a standard or a move action in a surprise round.
If he spends 3 rounds buffing himself in order to be really powerful on the 4th and later rounds, that's an appropriate cost. Hopefully the other PCs aren't dead by round 4.
Put away your first potion as a move action (you wouldn't want to drop and break it, right?).
Iron Vials are a mere 1sp a piece though.
True. So make sure they're on the character sheet. :)
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The keys to this problem are the PFS potion rules and the Accelerated Drinker trait.
As others have stated, PFS rules say all store-bought potions function at the minimum caster level.
As Dennis pointed out, Accelerated Drinker requires you to have the potion in your hand.
So this alchemist's (optimal) in-combat sequence is this:
Step 0, before combat, carry the potion you want to use in your hand.
Round 1, drink your alchemical allocation extract as a standard action. Drink the potion as a move action. Spit the potion back into the flask as a free action.
Round 2, drink your second alchemical allocation extract as a standard action. Put away your first potion as a move action (you wouldn't want to drop and break it, right?).
Round 3, draw your second potion as a standard or move action. Drink your second potion as a move or standard action. Spit the potion back into the flask as a free action.
Round 4, fight! Note that he's still holding the potion flask in one hand, so he has to either drop it as a free action or not use that hand to fight.If he's not carrying the potion he wants to use before the combat, that slows down this procedure by one move action (to draw it). If he's acting in a surprise round, that slows him down by one move action because he can only take a standard or a move action in a surprise round.
If he spends 3 rounds buffing himself in order to be really powerful on the 4th and later rounds, that's an appropriate cost. Hopefully the other PCs aren't dead by round 4.
There's a reason alchemists get vestigial arms. That said, if I were to use alchemical allocation, it would be for long term buffs like Greater Magic Fang and Barkskin. Another thing it allows is to get buffs like fly several levels earlier than usual. An alchemist gets alchemical allocation at 4th level, but would need to wait until 7th to have access to his 3rd level extracts.
I think the most powerful aspect of alchemical allocation is the preparedness factor. I don't need to prepare heroism if I have a potion of heroism right here, it'll last 30 minutes and that's just fine. With the discoveries that let you use potions at the alchemist caster level and that let you double the duration of a potion, it's certainly viable to have a large stock of potions in a handy haversack for alchemical allocation purposes.
Now, I'm too lazy to do the math on this, but I would think that a vestigial arm and/or a spring-loaded wrist sheath (if this brief threadling is to be believed) further cuts down the strain on one's action economy when trying to stack up buffs in combat.
Still, I could see the caster level limitation keeping a lid (har!) on the effectiveness of this still-effective tactic.