I'm currently playing a lvl 5 tank fighter (27 AC) and a lvl 1 sorcerer and I've been thinking of playing a cleric or a paladin. Being I've never played either, I would like some help.
What are the big differences between the two and what would be a good build for each? How would I go about playing the two?
Thanks.
Thanks. I forgot to mention this is for Society play. What would be a typical build?
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My suggestion would be the Cleric.
The biggest reason is, you are always needed at a table (in PFSOP). If there is already two clerics at the table? this is the only class where no one will blink if you have a second cleric or even notice much if you have three. and you are always welcome.
Also, it is less like the other characters you run - so you are less likely to be dupping up abilities. You get to be something different.
but now for the classic line - "play what you wanna play" (I hate when people say this to me!)
(Posted with my cleric to give you a build to look at.)
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I'm currently playing a lvl 5 tank fighter (27 AC) and a lvl 1 sorcerer and I've been thinking of playing a cleric or a paladin. Being I've never played either, I would like some help.
What are the big differences between the two and what would be a good build for each? How would I go about playing the two?
Thanks.
Well tell me more what you like to play.
As with most things in pathfinder you can make what you want with the archetypal.
A crusader cleric will deal more damage then a healing paladin. I forget the archtypes. The one thing i like about the paladin is the vows give it great role-playing potency.
Paladin can kill evil things better then any other Class. But they can have some difficulty if the adventurer has a lot of monsters that are animals or other non evil monsters.
The Clerics domain can make it almost anything. Some people to not like clerics becuase they spend some time buffing the Party. But they are always the Favorited to have in you party.
Well tell me more what you like to play.
My fighter is getting close to level 6 and I've heard that the scenarios get harder at that level. So I basically want to start preparing another character to replace him in case he falls in battle. I started to do that with my sorcerer but she's really squishy and a back of the group character.
I also wanted to dabble in magic and another character class other than a "tank" fighter. I want to broaden my RPG experience to another class that does more than hack and slash. So I guess something between a fighter and a sorcerer. Maybe a character that does a little of both, doesn't go down after a few hits and does have healing abilities other than potions.
Even though I'm in my second year of Pathfinder, I'm still a rookie with it and have only played about 20 games.
The reason I'm thinking about healing is because my fighter recently took about 50 damage from an advanced griffin in the first fight. If it wasn't for the fact that I gave the cleric(?) in the group my Wand of Cure Light Wounds and drinking a potion, my fighter would have went down.
So I guess something between a fighter and a sorcerer. Maybe a character that does a little of both, doesn't go down after a few hits and does have healing abilities other than potions.
I suggest one of the following:
Oracle of Battle: that's a fighting cleric
Halforc Bard, archetype: arcane duelist, fighting w. falchion. very versatile, superb buffer, could also be a good fighter (strength over charisma).
Inquisitor
Personally I find it hard to make a battle cleric worthwhile, I am playing one myself. You really need a better strength score than a fighter to be a decent combatant. Even buffed (my experience).
Paladins fulfill a very similar role as the fighter, so probably not what your looking for.
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I'll second the Oracle of Battle. In the role of combat divine caster oracle dose a much better over all job. Replacing domains that do help some in melee with revelations that are combat focused.
The Inquisitor is better then the cleric in this role as well. It is 1/2 cleric and 1/2 paladin. Over all I'm not impressed with the class. It how ever can and dose work well for what you want.
The Cleric is a pore choice for making in to a combat caster. In order to make them effective at it you have to gut channeling. Removing one of the key reasons to play a cleric.
Paladins fulfill a very similar role as the fighter, so probably not what your looking for.
Even though it's similar to a fighter, I'm still open to a paladin.
Oracle of Battle?! Hmm, I'll have to crack open my APG and read about it.
Oracle of Battle?! Hmm, I'll have to crack open my APG and read about it.
Once youre done looking at that look up rage prophet father back in the book. More fun than a barrel of summoned monkies.
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Paladins fulfill a very similar role as the fighter, so probably not what your looking for.Even though it's similar to a fighter, I'm still open to a paladin.
It was not me. That called them similar. They do fill the same role but do it in different ways. Over all the fighter dose a better job then the paladin in fulfilling that role. As the fighter dose not care who or what there fighting. Paladins have Meany more pit falls then fighters in there over all building. The number one mistake made (IMO) is making a cha base paladin. There special ability's are nice they are however not effective all the time. Playing a level 10 paladin with a 14 Str is not going to do you any good vs a dire tiger. It's called a dead paladin. (1: he can't hit it very often 2: he can't do enough damage to it to count)
It was not me. That called them similar.
Sorry, copied the wrong name.
Sounds like a paladin isn't what I'm looking for then.
Once youre done looking at that look up rage prophet father back in the book.
How do you use Prestig classes?
More fun than a barrel of summoned monkies.
LOL.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Play a cleric!
Huge spell selection. Excellent healing potential. Tough enough to mix it up now and then without being shoehorned into the tank role. Great roleplay hooks if you find a deity that grips you.
Have you thought about what deity to worship, should you play a cleric?
Have you thought about what deity to worship, should you play a cleric?
I'm really leaning toward a cleric and no I haven't. Also, what's a good build & spells for a cleric?
CLERIC.
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Play a cleric!
Huge spell selection. Excellent healing potential. Tough enough to mix it up now and then without being shoehorned into the tank role. Great roleplay hooks if you find a deity that grips you.
Have you thought about what deity to worship, should you play a cleric?
This dose not work past level 6~8. That is where you start to pay for not focusing your ability to cast or combat. You can do one or the other but you will never be good at both past those levels. And past level 10 any one that tried to spread them selfs thin are a wast of space. It has nothing to do with what you want to happen. It has every thing to do with how the game plays as you level.
And for the spell list I can tell you for a fact. That Oracles can pick every good spell with what they get. The only exception is level 3 spells. Because they put all the cure spells in one level.
1~5 Low Level: You can use your base ability's to buy pass skill checks. And even a wizard can hit monster AC not just tough AC. Every thing at this level is easy for the most part don't make a big mistake and you will live.
6~8 Mid Level: You have to be full invested in skill's to make the checks. As a wizard your hitting tough AC and that's about it and even then it's iffy. Every thing becomes more difficult to do AC still matters some but is starting to be phased out over damage. Don't make mistakes and you can survive.
9~12 High Level: You better bring your A game. If you did not cap skills you need good luck in even having a chance to roll(IE the skill checks are so high there is no point in rolling.). Wizards better cross there fingers if they ever need to make a roll to hit. AC by this point is all but useless. You can make a character focused on AC and it will matter, but the reduction in damage makes you more of a hindrance to the party then a help. Be ready with some good tactics and back up plans for when things go south in a hurry. You might be good or lucky maybe both if you live throw some of the high CR encounters at this level.
take a look at my cleric (click on Giamo's name). He's 5th now, but it was a lot of fun getting him to 5th!
Thanks.
9~12 High Level: You better bring your A game.
Yikes!!!
Echo on the cleric being preferred at tables.
Even a new cleric.
Reason: Cheap healing.
Echo on the cleric being preferred at tables.
Even a new cleric.
Reason: Cheap healing.
Thanks.
I think the next thing to do is flesh out the cleric and decide what deity. Or where the battle oracles power came from.
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I didn't see anyone jump in for the magus, even though the OP made some pretty obivious hints in that direction with his intial posts. So I will bring it up now.
Never going to have quite the spell selection of a full caster, but as an arcane with all of the reliable damaging spells and quite a few utility spells this guy can see you through a lot of situations. Although Charisma is not a critical stat for the class, it does have UMD, meaning wands of Cures are available for use. Furthermore, they have an Arcana that allows them to us a wand admist spell combat.
On the off chance your not familiar, Spell Combat allows you to cast a spell and attack your opponent in the same round as a full attack action. This would allow healing with a wand and striking with a sword simultainiously. Further more, as you advance in levels you gain acess to heavier armor types, while still retaining your spell casting. Finally, Magus have the ability to temporarily enchant their weapons. At 5th level they can improve on a weapon with some awesome element enchantments that you usually won't see for another level or 2, unless you invest heavily into one. My +1 longsword,(as the base wpn)would gain the flaming and shock properties bringing it from a 1d8+1 to a 1d8+1 +1d6 fire +1d6 frost. You could likewise do it with your bow or anyother weapon.
Just thought I'd throw it out there, but you may have already made your decision by this point.
I didn't see any hints towards magus in the first post.
Take a look at Inquisitor. It takes a bit of skill to do it right, but when built correctly they can dish out some serious damage around mid/high level and are fairly gish over all. They can act as a bard in identifying monsters, get really good bonuses to damage (take Destruction domain for example), can get healing spells and use wands, have lots of skills to help them outside of combat and can take a hit. Yes they don't get heavy armor proficiency, but you can pick that up with a feat.
Also, a druid might be something to consider. Go for a melee druid built (check out treantmonk's feral strategy) and prep some healing spells when need be. You can dish out some decent damage early on and can rely on spells to keep you going throughout your character's career.
If you're going to play a cleric then do NOT play a bandaid. At no point is your healing going to even come close to keeping up with the incoming damage. Healing is for after combat, and even then the best healer is a wand of CLW anyway. If you want to play a cleric because of the awesome spell selection, summoning and all of that then great, do it! If you want to play a melee cleric then I'd lean more to playing a paladin personally.
Clerics can be a powerhouse, especially at high levels. You'll never lack for something to do. You can be fairly good without worrying overly much about a build. A cleric is easily a buffer, healer. If he wants to do combat, he has to focus more, though.
Paladins are an end-loaded class that get better the further you progress in them. They're great at fighting evil things, and can help with healing. If you balance Str and Cha, you can hit things fairly well. They make great tanks.
Oracles are just fun--they're sort of what sorcerers are to wizards for the divine realm. They also pack a lot of oomph, and the Battle Oracle is very popular for that fact.
Thanks everyone, you've given me a lot to think about.
Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.
Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.
And worse spells.
Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.And worse spells.
I agree on the somewhat worse spell list but it should be otherwise they would be too powerful.
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I agree on the somewhat worse spell list but it should be otherwise they would be too powerful.Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.And worse spells.
Yes and no they really lack the breath of spells that arcane casters get. There are only a few divine spells that even come close to what arcane casters are playing with at the same level. The main problem is most of the divine spell that work like arcane spells is there 2-3 levels higher.
Not saying divine casters can not be god casters. Just saying they have a longer road to get there. Over all Arcane casters bring the pain starting around level 7-8 with 4th level spells. Divine casters it starts at 9-10 with 5th level spells.
Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.And worse spells.
Not for the God Wizard role, which is about summoning, buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control. Different, yes, but not worse.
Not for the God Wizard role, which is about summoning, buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control. Different, yes, but not worse.Clerics do the "God Wizard" role just as well as wizards, except with better AC, saves, hit points, weapon selection, and BAB. Oh, and no spellbook limits, and the ability to heal without spells.And worse spells.
It's different and mostly worse.
They've got Sacred Summons going for them. And really? That's about it.
They can do the roll decently. But nowhere near "just as well" as the God Wizard.
A. If you want to play a spellcaster who wears heavy armor and likes beating on BBEMs in melee, play a paladin who has the Dangerously Curious trait for UMD.
B. If not A, then cleric.
+1
Dangerously Curious is a REALLY fantastic trait if you are a Paladin.Paladin is easier and more fun than playing a cleric. It might actually be a learning experience since playing a Cleric is much more demanding. You've got to have the right spells for the right moment and the other players might want you to cast spells in battle or heal them in battle. As Guy from the East said.
Echo on the cleric being preferred at tables.
Even a new cleric.
Reason: Cheap healing.
You wanna be stuck healing the others in every fight instead of doing something good?
Play a Paladin. They Rock, They can heal, they have spells, they have auras and smite evil.
They don't need as many stats as clerics. They only need char and str. Charisma for their abilities, saves, spells and channeling. So no MAD. Just go strength and Charisma.
You can heal yourself as a swift action and the Damage output when you start hitting higher levels is silly funny. Aura of Justice: The best buff in the game.
Some advice on the Paladin. Don't use a shield. Pick a big weapon and swing it in both hands. Be it a Great sword, heavy Flail or Falchion. At lower levels Great sword and at higher Falchion. You want one hand free when you cast spells or use lay on hand, so no shield. At least not at higher levels. Also at higher levels a shield won't matter that much, but the damage output from you using a two handed weapon will.
If you like more spells on your list pick "Unsanctioned Knowledge" from ultimate magic, but you must have Int 13. Bard spells are great.
Skills: Max out use magic devive and and kekp Diplomacy, perception fairly high. Add some ranks in sence motive and your knowledge skills.
Again. Max out use magic device.
God traits: Dangerously Curious and Magical Knack. Best two traits a Paladin can get.
Wands you are going to use: Longstrider, Shield and See Invisibility. Blur and mirror image are also nice. Or any spell with target "You". Obviously spells such as Barkskin, Heroism, etc are good, but can be cast on you by others hopefully. If they can't get some wands and cast the on yourself.
Stats for a Paladin? Want a str based or a charisma based? At lower levels Str will matter more. Also when you can't use smite evil str will matter. I would build it with some str and some Char.
Do you use dump stats? Here is a suggestion on a 5:th level Human Paladin.
Character Wealth by Level at level 5 is 10,500 so you should be able to get a headband of char +2 or a belt of str +2 and a full plate a magic weapon +1 and a Handy haversack and some scrolls. If you want a some wands, skip the Handy haversack.
Human Paladin 5:
str: 18: 15 + 2 (human) +1 (level 4) From level 8 add all points to char.
dex: 10
con: 14
Wis: 8
Int: 10
Char: 18: 16 +2 (headband of char).
Or:
str: 16:
dex: 10
con: 14
Wis: 8
Int: 10
Char: 20: 15 + 2 (human) +1 (level 4) +2 (headband of char). Continue to add all points to char.
Want more dex or more int or more char or str? Starting with con 12 won't be a problem.
Just pick Toughness. Lower the con is no problem. You have a full plate and can use lay one hands as a swift action and put all your favorite class points to hit points.
Start with minimum int 10 whatever people say. Paladin have great class skills.
Paladin build if you want the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat:
I would start with dex 12 and int 11. At higher levels, when you can afford it, I would get an Ioun stone of int +2 and then take the feat Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Human Paladin 5:
str: 18: 15 + 2 (human) +1 (level 4)
dex: 12 (or 10)
con: 12
Wis: 8
Int: 11 (or 13)
Char: 18: 16 +2 (headband of char).
or
str: 16:
dex: 12 (or 10)
con: 14
Wis: 8
Int: 11 (or 13)
Char: 20: 15 + 2 (human) +1 (level 4) +2 (headband of char). Continue to add all points to char.
Feats you must have: Power attack, Step Up. Improved Crit and eventually Quick draw. If you start with con 12 pick Toughness. Some of the Critical feats.
Feats you should also pick: Blind fighting and If you start with dex 12 Combat reflexes might be good.
Regardless of want people say: Cleave isn't bad, but not really good if you are a Paladin since Smite Only target one foe.
Channeling feats:
They are not that good if you are a Paladin.
You will start at level 5 or later. Channeling don't scale well and it will cost you a lot.
Stay away from them. Especially Channel Smite.
But if you do want to use Channel, pick selective Channel. With a really high charisma score and at higher levels quicken channel might be an option, but I would advise against quicken channel.
Lay on Hand is better. Cost you less and is only is swift action to heal yourself.
Extra Channel vs. Extra Lay on Hands.
Channel cost you 2 Lay on hands so if you plan on using Extra Channel this saves you 4 lay on hands. But you can't convert Extra Channel to lay on hands, and picking this feat will probably lead to the others in the part crying for healing all the time.
Suggested feats at level 5:
1: Power attack + Toughness
3 Step up.
5 Quick draw or Blind Fight (if you drop Toughness you can have them both).
Hope this helps. :-)
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If you like more spells on your list pick "Unsanctioned Knowledge" from ultimate magic, but you must have Int 13. Bard spells are great.
This is where Dangerously Curious proves itself to be a feat-worthy trait -- it lets you cast spells higher than 4th level, and you save a feat slot.
(I wouldn't necessarily discourage S&B style, BTW; the opponents most dangerous to paladins are non-evil monsters with insane attacks targeting plain vanilla AC; in such case, having a nice, uber shield of fortification is quite helpful. Versus evil you are going to destroy things no matter what, and Smite bonus will be the same whether 1H or 2H weapon. -- Winning a war of attrition and taking little damage is better than winning it in less time by taking twice the damage, because the moment you're out of LoH and the party casters are tapped...and then there's another encounter, you're screwed.)
You also don't especially need Power Attack ("the feat that helps you miss!") pursuing AC strategy. Look at it this way; all it does is give you a dribble of extra damage, whereas the book is loaded with feats that give you more options.
Incorrect; Channel comes at 5th, but it is immediately acquired as a 5th-level channel (3d6) and scales same as cleric. You're also likely to have more of them, since you're CHA is probably higher as a paladin than as a cleric.Channeling feats:
They are not that good if you are a Paladin.
You will start at level 5 or later. Channeling don't scale well and it will cost you a lot.
Stay away from them. Especially Channel Smite.
Uhm, Channel Smite + Spellstoring weapon?
Earth-shattering kaboom.
-- This is why paladins don't need to Power Attack with two-handed weapons (leave that stuff to the Reckless Abandon barbarians who dump their AC into the grave anyway). Channel Smite also lets you burn off those extra channels without using standard actions. Higher AC also means you're using your own swift LoH less frequently, freeing up channels for damage.
If you're going to play a high-INT paladin, you take Combat Expertise (which, combined with shield, give you massively higher AC) and maneuver feats dependent upon it. At 12th, you're -4 to attack same as the 2hPA build, but probably +9 AC over him doing S&B (and Combat Expertise grants Dodge bonuses to AC< meaning they apply to touch-AC).
But if you do want to use Channel, pick selective Channel.Shoe-in feat for 5th.
Suggested feats at level 5:
1: Power attack + Toughness
Factoring HD+LoH, a paladin has more total de facto hitpoints than any other class (even barbarian); consequently he gains the least percentage-wise from Toughness. (Toughness is for sorcerers, etc.)
I didn't see anyone jump in for the magus, even though the OP made some pretty obivious hints in that direction with his intial posts.Probably because despite whatever hints you might have seen, the OP specifically asked us to help him choose between a cleric and paladin.
Okay, I'll expand this post and ask why I should go with another class instead of cleric or paladin.
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Oracle: Mystery: Battle
Class skills for battle oracle: Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Engineering, History, Planes, Religion), Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.
Skill Ranks per Level 4 + Int mod
With the traits Vagabond Child (Urban), and Fast-Talker. And not dumping Int you can have enough skill ranks. To cover both the party face and traps. With just your skill ranks per level.
Spells: (Using level 5 as my example. this is when a cleric wold have level 3 spells, but the oracle still only hase level 2.)
1st 6 (Cleric 3+1)
2nd 4 (Cleric 2+1)
3rd 0 (Cleric 1+1)
Spells Known :
1st(4+Cure): Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Sun Metal, Tap Inner Beauty, Comprehend Languages.
2nd(2+Cure): Cure Moderate Wounds, Find Traps, Grace.
Bonus Spells: enlarge person (2nd), fog cloud (4th), magic vestment (6th), wall of fire (8th), righteous might (10th)
You can get wands or scrolls for any thing thats not combat related. And the only reason to take a divine spell on your list is if you might need to cast it allot of times. Thats why I added Tap Inner Beauty, Comprehend Languages, and Find Traps. You do not have 3rd level spells yet, but are much better of with the ability to cast when needed. There are just not as many really good divine spells as arcane spells. The only exception is level 3.
Revelations and Feet's: (Using level 5 as my example.)
Feet's:
1st: Extra Revelation: Skill at Arms
3rd: Improved Initiative
5th: (Blank fill in what you want to take.)
Revelations
1st: War Sight
3rd: Weapon Mastery
Now you can fight in heavy armor if you want to. Not something I recommend. You can use any martial weapon. It's time to pick up that big two handed weapon and a good back up weapon. You get a very good chance of going in the top of the initiative order with your war sight ability. You gain improved critical at level 8 picking a weapon with a high threat range is a good idea. Along with a picking up a reach weapon with the ability to cast enlarge person. It changes your threated area to 15-20 ft from you. So they can no longer take a 5ft step to close with you. If you pick up the Maneuver Mastery: Trip revelation at level 7. Any one trying to close with you can be tripped as your AoO.
Edit: Curse there are a few that I avoid like the plague. Tongues and Lame they remove two key ability's when fighting. Mobility and communications. I really like the haunted cures, but there are Meany reason not to take it as a battle oracle.
Y'know, clerics lose almost nothing by taking a 1 level dip in another class.
Pally 1(divine hunter)/Cleric would be good
Okay, I'll expand this post and ask why I should go with another class instead of cleric or paladin.
You can play any class. It just a matter of taste.
Oracle especially the battle oracle is an alternative to cleric if you don't like to prepare spells.From what I've heard people switching from Paladin to Oracle have been disappointed because they don't deal as much damage as a paladin.
If damage is waht you mostly want and this is for Society play, the vast majority of encounters will be vs. evil foes. so Paladin will rock.
I think clerics are a viable choice and if you build it like a melee dude it will be powerful. I just find them boring. Once they get their second domain power nothing happens. More spells and a bump to channeling that is all.
I also like Bards. Especially some of the Archetypes.
There are two must have feat if you are going to play any melee dude: Power attack and improved crit.
If you going to play a S&B style, which I wouldn't recommend, power attack is even more important. Heck. All melee dudes based on str should have Power attack and improved crit. Sure it will help you miss some time but you still get a net boost damage.
This has BTW been proved in both DPR Olympics threads.
You can't always full attack so furious focus + power attack is a great combination. You find the feat furious focus in the APG.
Incorrect; Channel comes at 5th, but it is immediately acquired as a 5th-level channel (3d6) and scales same as cleric. You're also likely to have more of them, since you're CHA is probably higher as a paladin than as a cleric.
I never said it isn't immediately acquired as a 5th-level channel (3d6) and scales same as cleric. I said Channel don't scale well (just as cure spells don't scale well). This is BTW another well establish fact.
A Paladin is better of using lay on hands. Costs less and is only a swift action. Sure they will have higher char than a cleric but it will cost them more. Building a Paladin on channeling is not a wise move. Economy of action and all that.A S&B Paladin without smite evil and without power attack will deal 1d8 + str. That's just isn't good enough. Again, DPR Olympics have proved the net gain even for a Paladin is higher with PA, misses included.