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It's quite easy to die in every game that has death. Even the game of life (people are so tragically fragile.)
I agree Resurrection should be comparatively cheap, but free is a big turn off for me.
That one sentence struck me as hilarious! I really need sleep. Nothing like a newborn to keep you up all night.
I am not totally against the idea of cheap resurrections. May be it can scale with level or with the frequency of death?
Goblin Squad Member
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The risk is in potentially losing the game (the battleground), same as the risk in any game. If you win, you get some cool stuff. If you lose, you get a lot less cool stuff. The risk is in the difference between those two outcomes.
Are you sure you understand how games work?
I never felt a risk in a WoW battleground. I didn't care if I won or lost as I had zero control of my team, a small influence on the event and I was there to farm honour like everybody else. But enough on this.
Enough talk about end game raids, battlegrounds, none existent death penalties and features which to date have been the staples of themepark games. I know such references give Scott immediate access to play Devil's Advocate to sandbox ideas which are inherently problematic as they are not only new, but being pitched by civilian gamers. I think we're all getting bored of these back and fourth arguments.
Are you saying that if there was a significant death penalty you would not play?
Is it wrong that, were this the case, I would happily bribe Goblinworks to include this feature as to ensure this inevitability?
I provided two options. If so and If not. I purposefully worded my post in such a way that you could choose which one applies to you.
You didn't include the third option, which is "what I actually think about the subject".
You know, you probably shouldn't include options to chose in your posts in the first place, since not every possible opinion can be composed by a list of Scott Betts-approved options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You didn't include the third option, which is "what I actually think about the subject".
What you actually think is, apparently, that resurrection is commonplace in the Pathfinder universe. I didn't really anticipate you thinking something that was simply wrong, so you'll have to forgive me.
You didn't include the third option, which is "what I actually think about the subject".What you actually think is, apparently, that resurrection is commonplace in the Pathfinder universe. I didn't really anticipate you thinking something that was simply wrong, so you'll have to forgive me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have any ideas on how to stop him posting too, that would also be useful.But if he told you his ideas, I'd have to poke them full of holes, too.
Alternatively:
If you have any ideas on how to stop him posting too, that would also be useful.I'd probably post a lot less if you came up with better ideas.
Scott, I don't think it's your ideas themselves that rub people the wrong way, it's just that you come across as really abrasive. A few ranks in diplomacy might help smooth that over so people aren't asking you to stop posting or not play in a game they want to play in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have very rigid, and exacting demands -
I demand this-
I want a computer generated gaming experinece that makes me feel like I just came close to having fun.
I've had fun in real life, occasionally, well okay not all that occasionally, but I know what it is like.
I've had fun playing Dungeons and Path's, or Pathing and Dragons, or whatever, on the table in the kitchen, occasionally, yes occasionally.
I never had fun playing World of Warcraft. It always felt like I was doing chores for my dad who kept telling me I would get an allowance, but never had the money to actually pay me - yes that is exactly how I felt after three and a half hours of War(farming)Craft, every time, for two years (wow was i stupid)
I just want to feel like i had fun, or at least came close to having fun, after as little as an hour, which is about all my wife will let me play anyway, after our WOW debacle.
You poke fun, but not everyone actually likes WoW. Didn't do it for me, after 3 separate attempts, trying both horde and alliance, and several different classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scott, I don't think it's your ideas themselves that rub people the wrong way, it's just that you come across as really abrasive. A few ranks in diplomacy might help smooth that over so people aren't asking you to stop posting or not play in a game they want to play in.
Curiously I find a lot of the replies to him more irritant and abrasive than his posts.
Maybe it depend more from our opinions on what the game should be than his post or the replies?|
Goblin Squad Member
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Curiously I find a lot of the replies to him more irritant and abrasive than his posts.
Maybe it depend more from our opinions on the game than his post or the replies?
That may be...in which case, if I have replied rudely and did so our of pettiness due to differing opinions, I apologize to the community and SB. I will try to be a better person and to spend more time searching for valid arguments in your posts.
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To answer your point about the big-bad villains I'm not really sure. Personally I'd like to see some mechanic in the game to make resurrections more difficult/expensive anyway. You see them here and there in Pathfinder and 3.0/3.5 and it's a pretty interesting concept.
In an online MMO, I'd hate to have an expensive resurrection cost.
Why? Three reasons jump quickly to the top of my list:
Griefing: My character shouldn't be penalized harshly because 13yo Timmy decided to create an assassin character and randomly murderstab my character.
Lag/connectivity: My character may die because my internet provider dropped my connection, or because the server had a hiccup, or because my power went out. My character shouldn't be penalized harshly for that.
Software instead of a living GM: If a monster bugs out, evades, has some sort of glitch, or gets an advantage from the RNG, there's no human GM present to say, "whoa, that shouldn't happen" (or even, "whoa, this CR-appropriate monster rolled well and took out the fighter in one shot, I should reduce the damage in later rounds so this isn't a TPK"). My character shouldn't be penalized harshly because of a software problem.
In WOW, when I die, it's a minimal cost to repair my gear, but it costs me time to run back to my corpse--time, if I were more careful, that I could have spent making gold, killing monsters, or having other sorts of fun. I don't need it to penalize me MORE than it already does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scott, I don't think it's your ideas themselves that rub people the wrong way, it's just that you come across as really abrasive. A few ranks in diplomacy might help smooth that over so people aren't asking you to stop posting or not play in a game they want to play in.
Curiously I find a lot of the replies to him more irritant and abrasive than his posts.
Maybe it depend more from our opinions on what the game should be than his post or the replies?
A provocative post will likely lead to more irritant and abrasive posts. Let's just try and tone down the provocation.
I'm including myself in that "let's" because I'm certainly prone to it as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scott, I don't think it's your ideas themselves that rub people the wrong way, it's just that you come across as really abrasive. A few ranks in diplomacy might help smooth that over so people aren't asking you to stop posting or not play in a game they want to play in.
I don't roll Diplomacy in threads like these.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lag/connectivity: My character may die because my internet provider dropped my connection, or because the server had a hiccup, or because my power went out. My character shouldn't be penalized harshly for that.Software instead of a living GM: If a monster bugs out, evades, has some sort of glitch, or gets an advantage from the RNG, there's no human GM present to say, "whoa, that shouldn't happen" (or even, "whoa, this CR-appropriate monster rolled well and took out the fighter in one shot, I should reduce the damage in later rounds so this isn't a TPK"). My character shouldn't be penalized harshly because of a software problem
While normally I'm in the "greater realism" camp, I've had this happen to me back with I used to play in NWN persistant servers with harsh death penalties and it sucks. In a perfect world, there would never be disconnects or software glitches, but they happen, and I'm willing to compromise on smaller rez penalties just because of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A bunch of members of my guild get together every year from all over the country (and Canada and Britain) and reminisce about 'the old days,' and, inevitably, someone drunkenly waxes nostalgic about how awesome it was in the days of EverQuest, when you could lose everything your character owned if you couldn't recover your corpse, and lose four or five levels in a single night attempting to 'break Fear' or whatever and how *awesome* that was, because it was all 'real' and 'had risk.'
And then someone else points out that pretty much every game since then has abandoned that, and that WoW, which is *vastly* less 'real' and 'risky' and much more 'fun' and 'casual' has a hundred times more subscribers and it's developers are rolling around in gold-plated bathtubs filled with money because they *didn't* decide to make their game unfun and tedious and 'realistic.' The free market hath spoken. Lot's of people will pay for entertainment. A much smaller subset will pay to be repeatedly bored, discouraged and frustrated.
I get all the unfun, tedious and 'realistic' I need at work (and, yes, given the people I work with and the circumstances that crop up, 'realistic' very much deserves to be in air-quotes). I pays my subscription fees to various MMO designers, etc. to get away from that crap.
I don't mind games having tedious options (such as crafting, which I haven't done since Dark Ages of Camelot, with my Hunter crafting his own bows and arrows), but tedious requirements, not so much.
I played EQ for years. I RP'd. I think I made level 21. Sure you could probably powerlevel to whatever in a few hours...
Anyways, I tried WoW last year. I don't play WoW anymore. It was fun, it was pretty... it was too easy. There were no consequences. I lost interest.
As much as I hated doing the "corpse runs" at the time, the difficulty and penalty of EQ did make it feel like you accomplished things.
WoW, you could walk away from your keyboard, come back, found out that you died, and your reaction is. "Oh well."
Removed a post. Please use your words—ASCII art is considered harmful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scott, I don't think it's your ideas themselves that rub people the wrong way, it's just that you come across as really abrasive. A few ranks in diplomacy might help smooth that over so people aren't asking you to stop posting or not play in a game they want to play in.I don't roll Diplomacy in threads like these.
I noticed. Which is why I suggested you might want to look into it.
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I played EQ for years. I RP'd. I think I made level 21. Sure you could probably powerlevel to whatever in a few hours...
Anyways, I tried WoW last year. I don't play WoW anymore. It was fun, it was pretty... it was too easy. There were no consequences. I lost interest.
As much as I hated doing the "corpse runs" at the time, the difficulty and penalty of EQ did make it feel like you accomplished things.
WoW, you could walk away from your keyboard, come back, found out that you died, and your reaction is. "Oh well."
Funny, I played EQ for like, a week, got to level 7...and then got to level 21 when I tried the game again a couple of years later. I had the exact opposite experience. EQ was tedious and rather not fun, especially with the harsh penalties for dying. Conversely, I've played WoW for some 7 years now. No other MMO I've tried has worked for me for that long--not UO (which lasted I think 2-3 years, because of the guild I had migrated to UO with), not Planetside, not EQ, not WAR, not LotRO nor DDO nor Rift.
In an online MMO, I'd hate to have an expensive resurrection cost.
Why? Three reasons jump quickly to the top of my list:
Griefing: My character shouldn't be penalized harshly because 13yo Timmy decided to create an assassin character and randomly murderstab my character.
Lag/connectivity: My character may die because my internet provider dropped my connection, or because the server had a hiccup, or because my power went out. My character shouldn't be penalized harshly for that.
Software instead of a living GM: If a monster bugs out, evades, has some sort of glitch, or gets an advantage from the RNG, there's no human GM present to say, "whoa, that shouldn't happen" (or even, "whoa, this CR-appropriate monster rolled well and took out the fighter in one shot, I should reduce the damage in later rounds so this isn't a TPK"). My character shouldn't be penalized harshly because of a software problem.
In WOW, when I die, it's a minimal cost to repair my gear, but it costs me time to run back to my corpse--time, if I were more careful, that I could have spent making gold, killing monsters, or having other sorts of fun. I don't need it to penalize me MORE than it already does.
This.
Seriously, I still think a lot of people here do not understand how an MMO should work in order for that MMO to be an enjoyable experience. Anyway, I'm simply stating what Sean here has said instead of going deeper, since I wouldn't wanna waste any more of my already-limited time and energy arguing over this. I also agree with Scott Betts, and weirdly enough, I don't see him as abrasive. Brutally honest, yes, but not really that abrasive.
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Whether for better or worse I think if the game tries too hard to be too real, it's going to be punished for it success wise. I know there's a niche for a super realistic game out there but there's going to be issues.
For one, what HAS been stated so far in the FAQ leads me to believe in a pretty open world pvp fest. After playing AION which had very few safe zones ... this sucks. I have an hour to log onto the game and screw around a bit and instead I spend the entire time eating dirt. Easiest solution is either grind my levels and dedicate bunches of time or bow out of the game.
So I bow out. Most casual players are looking just to find some fun.
However the flip side to this is I do understand the desire to play in a world where what you do matters. The closest thing I've EVER seen that made this work is the old Neverwinter Nights custom servers and they WORKED (some of them) because there WAS a DM behind the screens running things. Without something or someone like that helping the world and players along ... I don't know. The shame is the most fun I've ever had online in a game ARE the NWN servers. I've played WoW, EQ 1 and 2, WAR, Aion, Conan, and Rift but the NWN servers were always the most addicting (for better or worse >_> ).
I'm curious just how many people they hope/plan to get to play a game like this.
On a side note: I've always been kind of impressed by the fact that Scott Betts still posts on here and I'm actually glad he does. I'm talking about the Paizo forums in general and not just here. There are a lot of people that are straight up just mean to him and I've never seen where it comes from. Guy might be brutal but he's never come off as mean or insulting like a lot of the other people in the Paizo community are to him. You won't be, I know, but a lot of you should really be ashamed of how you treat others, internet messageboards or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a side note: I've always been kind of impressed by the fact that Scott Betts still posts on here and I'm actually glad he does. I'm talking about the Paizo forums in general and not just here. There are a lot of people that are straight up just mean to him and I've never seen where it comes from.
Don't sweat it. I say what I feel ought to be said, and someone reacting poorly isn't new or exciting.
If you want to feel bad for someone, feel bad for the people who made good arguments and were driven off for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...So I bow out. Most casual players are looking just to find some fun...
Then theme park MMOs are not for you. In these playing time > all because you only level when you are online.
Sandboxes may be more to your liking because there the differences between play times are not that pronounced, but they are still there.
And that can not really be changed unless you make playing irrelevant to advancing your character, which could be a solution, at least on some special "casual worlds" that would allow no more than 1-2 hours of advancement effective playing per day.
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It feels kinda odd that you're trying to make arguments about PVP and you're doing it from the position of people who don't enjoy PVP, but are forcing themselves to do it anyways.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the not awful players are not awful because they actively enjoy what they're doing!
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It feels kinda odd that you're trying to make arguments about PVP and you're doing it from the position of people who don't enjoy PVP, but are forcing themselves to do it anyways.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the not awful players are not awful because they actively enjoy what they're doing!
Not sure if this is to my post but in case it is, I'll just clarify a bit as I see where some confusion might be by how I worded it (sorry about that if the post was for me).
I wasn't trying to make an argument from an "I don't enjoy it" position. Warhammer open pvp was some of the most fun I've had (up until tier 4) and even WoW had good memories for me. I was just using it as an example, maybe a poor one, of a pitfall that could come up. Aion had a lot of good elements but often pvp was bad for me and my wife. The way itemization works in that game is far different than anything I was used to (to the point that after breaking down and leveling up your gear, at level 30 you could be wearing the same strength equipment as the base end game stuff at the time would be close to). As I said, it was likely a poor example and if so, that's my bad.
I don't generally hate open world pvp. In fact the idea of two sides having a huge all out war over resources or something IS a good one. But the fact that once your character dies, it respawns, tends to take a bit away from dying. Never ending battles are left to question.
Some options could be done in a mixture of Heroes of Might and Magic VI and Warhammer though for resource control if you do have different warring armies. Whoever controls the keep of a land, gets its resources. After a keep is overthrown, it can't be taken back by the other side for say, a day or something. Plus the respawn point is so far away that dying IS huge.
More on the topic, I agree you can't shoot for too much realism without crippling fun. I think there should be NPCs that do most of the work for the PCs. I also think that maybe when it comes to crafting that these NPCs can take on apprentices, teach the trade, and then the PCs become BETTER crafters then the NPCs. That way if people want to try and fully take control over the world they have the OPTION to but it isn't forced on them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Warhammer open pvp was some of the most fun I've had (up until tier 4) and even WoW had good memories for me...Aion had a lot of good elements but often pvp was bad for me and my wife...
I think you might be approaching this from the wrong angle.
Aion, WHO and WoW have all one in common - gear > skill.
You having bad experiences in PvP ion these games could possibly be because of this. People with better gear will rape you within seconds.
This is because none of these games is a good example for true open PvP. In all games the amount of PvP outside the consensual zones (Abyss, BGs, PvP lakes) was very very low and discouraged by the game mechanics.
True open PvP is not that there might be someone in this zone that might be out to get you despite the fact that it's time consuming and hard and not a very mechanically rewarding option, but instead that every joe and his uncle could get you just while walking by...
I removed some posts. Disagreeing is fine, but disagree civilly.
Not sure if this is to my post but in case it is, I'll just clarify a bit as I see where some confusion might be by how I worded it (sorry about that if the post was for me).
I was referring more to MicMan, who's argument seems to be "These changes that made PVP in Battlegrounds less painful allowed people who don't like PVP to play it! And they're very bad at it!"
I'm not sure why we'd argue from a state of "But what about these people who don't like PVP, we should build PVP around them!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I know is that if Pathfinder Online is as "challenging" as WoW, it will probably hold my interest just as long.
Besides, if this is supposed to be anything like the setting of Pathfinder, there shouldn't be thousands of level 20s running around ever, let alone after a few hours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I know is that if Pathfinder Online is as "challenging" as WoW, it will probably hold my interest just as long.
If you've played WoW at any point in the last three years, I think it's a little ignorant to decry it as not challenging enough. Between arena rankings and ranked battlegrounds to challenge PvP players, and heroic 10- and 25-man raid achievements to challenge PvE players, it's now the sort of game where only the most dedicated players with a total mastery of the game can claim to have beaten all there is to beat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I know is that if Pathfinder Online is as "challenging" as WoW, it will probably hold my interest just as long.If you've played WoW at any point in the last three years, I think it's a little ignorant to decry it as not challenging enough. Between arena rankings and ranked battlegrounds to challenge PvP players, and heroic 10- and 25-man raid achievements to challenge PvE players, it's now the sort of game where only the most dedicated players with a total mastery of the game can claim to have beaten all there is to beat.
Arena is a p*ssing contest. Ranked battlegrounds are the only reprieve, but hardly worth a subscription on my part. Top end heroics are difficult but again, simply stating these facts does not make up for the rest of the experience.
Levelling from 1-85 and gearing up to the point of these challenges is probably the easiest ride of any serious MMORPG to date. 95% of the content is, and pardon a Wow buzz word, faceroll, not to mention that the elements you prescribe to being difficult, do not exist in any persistent state to which PFO hopes to accomplish as a sandbox. They could exist in a number of none massively multiplayer games and maintain full functionality. Nothing exists persistently in Azeroth that is difficult (Queue return to land dragons in panda expansion).
I appreciate your correcting someone that Wow actually does manage to be difficult in a shocking minority of it's content, but none of this should hold any bearing on PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Arena is a p*ssing contest.
Pardon?
Ranked battlegrounds are the only reprieve, but hardly worth a subscription on my part.
Okay.
Top end heroics are difficult but again, simply stating these facts does not make up for the rest of the experience.
It wasn't supposed to.
Levelling from 1-85 and gearing up to the point of these challenges is probably the easiest ride of any serious MMORPG to date.
"Easiest" in the sense that you don't feel like you should be getting paid for what you're doing in-game, sure.
95% of the content is, and pardon a Wow buzz word, faceroll, not to mention that the elements you prescribe to being difficult, do not exist in any persistent state to which PFO hopes to accomplish as a sandbox.
I don't see how that's germane. We were talking about it being more challenging than WoW. Whether WoW is a sandbox is irrelevant to that particular point.
I appreciate your correcting someone that Wow actually does manage to be difficult in a shocking minority of it's content, but none of this should hold any bearing on PFO.
WoW manages to be difficult at its highest tier content. That means that, by the time it's difficult, you should be ready to handle that difficulty.
If you think that's ridiculous, that's fine. But the number of people who are unable to handle the coordination necessary to complete even the first set of raid dungeons says that people a hell of a lot of practice. WoW is "easy" from 1-85 because it's supposed to be accessible to everyone. Once you hit the top, then it tests you to see if you've actually been paying attention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WoW is "easy" from 1-85 because it's supposed to be accessible to everyone. Once you hit the top, then it tests you to see if you've actually been paying attention.
Good for World of Warcraft. I'm glad it's supposed to be easy right through most of it's content and then require some cognitive ability before it runs out of hoops.
Back to Pathfinder, sandbox games!
Goblinworks Founder
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All I know is that if Pathfinder Online is as "challenging" as WoW, it will probably hold my interest just as long.If you've played WoW at any point in the last three years, I think it's a little ignorant to decry it as not challenging enough. Between arena rankings and ranked battlegrounds to challenge PvP players, and heroic 10- and 25-man raid achievements to challenge PvE players, it's now the sort of game where only the most dedicated players with a total mastery of the game can claim to have beaten all there is to beat.
Mindlessly grinding the same instanced content whether it is a battleground, arena map or raid is only challenging to ones sanity.
You can continue to talk up world of warcraft but what is it going to prove? that some people like it and others don't.Building an Empire, to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. That's what is best in life.
You can keep your instanced capture the flags and migraine inducing whack-a-mole dungeons. You have plenty to choose from.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mindlessly grinding the same instanced content whether it is a battleground, arena map or raid is only challenging to ones sanity.
You can continue to talk up world of warcraft but what is it going to prove? that some people like it and others don't.
But I'm not trying to prove otherwise. I'm trying to put to bed the tired notion that World of Warcraft is bereft of challenge. If those activities were mindless, pretty much everyone in the game would be capable of pulling them off. In reality, very, very few players can claim to have any 25-man heroic achievements under their belt.
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Goblinworks Founder
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But I'm not trying to prove otherwise. I'm trying to put to bed the tired notion that World of Warcraft is bereft of challenge. If those activities were mindless, pretty much everyone in the game would be capable of pulling them off. In reality, very, very few players can claim to have any 25-man heroic achievements under their belt.Mindlessly grinding the same instanced content whether it is a battleground, arena map or raid is only challenging to ones sanity.
You can continue to talk up world of warcraft but what is it going to prove? that some people like it and others don't.
I'm trying to point out that the only challenge it presents is a challenge to your sanity.
Repeating the same encounter over and over again until all 25 people can work in unison is not a challenge of wits or a challenge of intellect. It is nothing more than 25 people attempting to do their particular role while memorizing a scripted encounter of avoiding ground poo, fire or some other timer that deadly boss mods flashes in giant text on your screen while announcing a little bing bong sound.
I bet laboratory chimps could do the same damn thing.
Like I said a challenge to your sanity.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm trying to point out that the only challenge it presents is a challenge to your sanity.
Clearly, that's not the case.
Repeating the same encounter over and over again until all 25 people can work in unison is not a challenge of wits or a challenge of intellect. It is nothing more than 25 people attempting to do their particular role while memorizing a scripted encounter of avoiding ground poo, fire or some other timer that deadly boss mods flashes in giant text on your screen while announcing a little bing bong sound.
I bet laboratory chimps could do the same damn thing.
Yeah, I think they probably couldn't.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Actually, that's nearly the definition of practice. It's unfortunate that it's been co-opted into a half-witted aphorism about sanity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, WoW PvP and PvE is certainly far from mindless it only has a steep curve, i.e. for 10% of the performance you get 90% of the rewards.
But if you want the last 10% of the rewards you really need to be into it.
I don't see the learning curve as terribly steep. In fact, WoW's end-game experience is one of the most graduated in MMORPGs. You have a series of dungeons from about 58-85 that are increasingly more in-line with how the current end-game dungeons work, and when you reach the top you can run normal 5-mans, then heroic 5-mans, and then step up into 10- or 25-man raiding when you feel like you have command of your class abilities. And once you've mastered that, you can pursue heroic raids and their associated achievements.
There are similar "steps" within the PvP system.