Dealing with high AC


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Zmar wrote:
Dwarves are medium actually. A lot o people forget about that...

From a rules standpoint as regards a creature's size, yes. From the standpoint of a Large size ogre, they're "small". (Admittedly, I'd not differentiated which I meant, but as that suggestion was meant in jest...) :)

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Thod wrote:

Dennis

The Dwarven bonus against Giants is +4 AC dodge bonus - and Dodge Bonus applies for CMD.

Not 100% sure - but I think this one would stay for the CMD. I also just realize I (and you) missed out the BAB.

So level 8 should be closer to 30 with a dwarf. PreGen Valeros level 7 has a CMD of 26 without being a Dwarf. Still worthwhile to check out the numbers.

Thod

Doh!

Yeah, nowhere near as bad as I was thinking, still vastly better than hitting AC. And that damned dwarf bonus.

Grumbles about late nite posting

In any case, at least a few of the beasties in the encounter he mentioned will have a much higher CMB.


Pathos wrote:
Shatter his non-magical armor items...

Out of question... there are none. I've played this aganst that player earlier when he had an elven TWF fighter, but now I can only shatter his waraxe, which he doesn't use at all, since he's into bashing. I'll try to scrape the shield with those +1 hooks instead via barbarian breaker squad perhaps, but doing that repeatedly is tactitic I find to be in poor taste.


Azoun The Sage wrote:

I dealt with this same issue when I ran that campaign many moons ago. Oddly enough it all worked out. When they got to the 'dam' and had to ascend the stairs...that Armor Check Penalty killed the dwarf! He (the player) refused to remove his armor. And well the party left him at the bottom of the stairs.

Oddly enough I think the player wanted me to lower the DC (which if I recall correctly isn't that high) which I was not about to do.

Remember that the ogres are not stupid brutes, they do have a degree of intelligence. Meaning, when the group I ran faced the ogres, of course the dwarf jumped to the fore of the combat. The ogres failed to hit his high AC but he wasn't hitting the ogres either (bad dice rolls), well the other members of the party were doing seroius damage to the ogres.

So: Ogres realized the immediate threat and went after the other party members ignoring the dwarf until they as a group could deal with the little creature.

I doubt that this will be an issue untill Ettin Doorstep perhaps. The group will whip up some rope when needed and this dwarf's climbing skills are not THAT low thanks to Mithral full plate. Ou paladin and cleric will be in much worse situation IMO ;)


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
You want to make him truly miserable? Have the enemies ignore him. I know you want to avoid it, but seriously. If the two-handed fighters are dishing out all the damage and are easier to hit, why would any creature bother attacking a chunk of metal with a dwarf inside?

Just list all the suggestions and rank them in order of pain (on him) then keep ratcheting up the pain levels on the encounters until you feel it's right.

I'd start with ignoring him entirely and focusing on others. Next I'd make sure one or two guys in every encounter have a huge AC so they can deal with it (I always send the message to my players that if something they are doing is imbalanced I'll be sure to throw it at them).

Then I'd move to the touch attacks/spells/alchemy route since it's hard to have an excuse for those in every encounter.

The final step is sundering, because sundering never hurts the DM as much as it hurts the players. I'm sure it's a lot easier to bust his shield and plate than it is to hit him, I don't think the dwarf racial stacks with CMD and his CMD shouldn't be insane anyway. You could look into a couple levels of barbarian for some of the NPCs to facilitate the sunder damage (with rage).

Last time I encountered this it was basically handled by just ignoring him though.


Drop the Augmented Simple Template on everything ogre+ in the fort. they'll live alittle longer and have a bit better chance to hit on top of things.

Grand Lodge

Attack while they sleep. I doubt he has endurance, so he has to take his armor off to sleep.

Rust monsters. I remember a nasty version somewhere that did disintegrate with their attacks, rather than rusting, but that's probably a bit extreme.

Deep Slumber. He may be a dwarf, but he's probably got a poor will save.

Alchemical glue or tar vs shield bashing. Make it a reflex save to resist.

Make one of the ogres an arcane blooded sorceror with a raven familiar, that watches their tactics and reports back to its master, then have the master plan accordingly.


Ryu_Hitome wrote:

Attack while they sleep. I doubt he has endurance, so he has to take his armor off to sleep.

Rust monsters. I remember a nasty version somewhere that did disintegrate with their attacks, rather than rusting, but that's probably a bit extreme.

Deep Slumber. He may be a dwarf, but he's probably got a poor will save.

Alchemical glue or tar vs shield bashing. Make it a reflex save to resist.

Make one of the ogres an arcane blooded sorceror with a raven familiar, that watches their tactics and reports back to its master, then have the master plan accordingly.

Ogres are not exactly bright, so I want to keep it strightforward. Not everyone can be an expert chess player.

How do you attack someone while asleep when he's attacking your fortress? The ogres have just learned that the PCs are around and there's not nearly enough of them to scout around in force. The PCs weren't stupid enough so far to leave tracks around. Druid's doing some scouting in air elemental form and Rangers are not bad at watching from afar either. Random encounter with an animal at best when they keep around for some time, but otherwise it's out of question at the moment.

Glue may be interesting, but it works on all things, not just spiked shield.

Will saves are getting old already, as I wrote. I'll try to remake Dorella Kreeg to summon instead to give our druid a taste of his medicine...

As to Rust Monsters - EXTREMELY BAD IDEA in my case. The player has saved for two levels to make that Mithral full-plate and crafed it himself just before setting off for this venture. I really don't want to have rust monsters around yet. I may send one on our Gorumite priest for continued cowardice, but not now certainly.

Those disintegraing monsters were the Annihilators from Underdark Forgotten Realms module for 3.5 (my favourite reading, some fun ideas there) and yes, it's too strong for them now.


Azoun The Sage wrote:

I dealt with this same issue when I ran that campaign many moons ago. Oddly enough it all worked out. When they got to the 'dam' and had to ascend the stairs...that Armor Check Penalty killed the dwarf! He (the player) refused to remove his armor. And well the party left him at the bottom of the stairs.

Masterwork full plate with armor training 1 has only ACP of -4. Not really a problem for a fighter with high STR and climb as a class skill, no?


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I would just keep it pretty straight forward, there is really nothing wrong with allowing the players to play to their strengths sometimes. The ogres are fairly dumb brutes, they will have some basic tactical sense but nothing too fancy reserve that for more intelligent and tougher opponents.

Just keep the encounters fairly simple and have them enjoy their characters prowess your time will come, perhaps the ogres even get lucky with some natural 20's and if they really are outmatched have them flee and run the next encounters with the surviving ogres as an addition, even if they are just there to aid other monsters.

More intelligent/cunning foes might go for improved feint and greater improved feint feats to get rid of that annoying dodge, dex and expertise bonus.

Sczarni

Throw in atleast 1 big baddy with Brilliant Energy on their weapon. Maybe even a ranged character so the dwarf can't run up and tie that character up.

Nothing says "your armor sucks" like Brilliant Energy.

Lantern Lodge

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I have a very similar situation in my RotRL campaign, where an inquisitor PC has invested lots of gold and feats into generating a really high AC. For our group it hasn't been too much of a problem. I vary up the tactics to keep things interesting. For instance, last night while fighting stone giants, the giants tried pelting him with rocks and hitting him with a club. When that didn't work, they switched to killing his horse out from under him (destroying his mobility). One giant stayed to engage the inquisitor (using reach to his advantage and disarming the inquisitor) while the other giants shifted to different targets. Yeah the inquisitor eventually pulped his opponent and made it through relatively unscathed, but the fight was dynamic, and the shift in tactics was natural enough that no one felt like I was intentionally and unfairly targeting the inquisitor.

There have been a lot of great suggestions here, lets see if I can add a few more.

You mentioned the players are assaulting the Keep. Have the ogres use the terrain to their advantage. Ogres are large and strong, right? Make it thematically and cinematically fun.

Have them tear massive tapestries off the walls and use them like nets.

Throw tables at the dwarf like improvised area effect siege weaponry. Force him to make reflex saves to get out of the way.

Pick up cauldrons of boiling soup and pour it on the dwarf.

Have an ogre grab a brazier of red hot coals and smash it over the dwarf, sending red hot ash and embers into his eyes.

Grab the carpet in the hall and pull it out from under the dwarf, tripping him.

Better yet, grab the carpet in the hall and roll it up, catching the dwarf inside (reflex save perhaps?).

Dwarves are naturally slow (20ft movement). Put in some difficult terrain and keep the foes moving, use their greater speed to your advantage. Or make some difficult terrain. Remember those handy bits of furniture and old tapestries? Thrown into a hallway in front of the advancing dwarf will slow him to a crawl.

[EDIT] I forgot one. Defenestrate him. Have an ogre bull rush him out a window. Its a long way down to the ground, and there's probably a bunch of ogres waiting in the courtyard.

Liberty's Edge

When dealing with a can of spam you can't seem to open, throwing it really hard against the ground tends to work. Enter the spell, Enemy Hammer. Watch as the players eyes pop out when your enemy spell caster lifts im and and starts using him to bash his own allies. And ofcourse there is the pick him up and drop him from a great height strategy. Dwarves don't bounce.


ossian666 wrote:

Throw in atleast 1 big baddy with Brilliant Energy on their weapon. Maybe even a ranged character so the dwarf can't run up and tie that character up.

Nothing says "your armor sucks" like Brilliant Energy.

I don't really want to give the group an equivalent of at least +5 weapon for quite some time, also it's not a good idea to put all my eggs in one basket as party wizard creates pits in such case :)

The Exchange

Replace a few ogre barbarians with minotaurs (with fewer levels of barbarian.) They don't have the (Giant) subtype so they have better odds of hitting your dwarf. Although thinking is not giants' strong suit, you might consider giving one or two of them caltrops, nets and other indirect means of setting the dwarf up for a beating.


Kassegore wrote:

I have a very similar situation in my RotRL campaign, where an inquisitor PC has invested lots of gold and feats into generating a really high AC. For our group it hasn't been too much of a problem. I vary up the tactics to keep things interesting. For instance, last night while fighting stone giants, the giants tried pelting him with rocks and hitting him with a club. When that didn't work, they switched to killing his horse out from under him (destroying his mobility). One giant stayed to engage the inquisitor (using reach to his advantage and disarming the inquisitor) while the other giants shifted to different targets. Yeah the inquisitor eventually pulped his opponent and made it through relatively unscathed, but the fight was dynamic, and the shift in tactics was natural enough that no one felt like I was intentionally and unfairly targeting the inquisitor.

There have been a lot of great suggestions here, lets see if I can add a few more.

You mentioned the players are assaulting the Keep. Have the ogres use the terrain to their advantage. Ogres are large and strong, right? Make it thematically and cinematically fun.

Have them tear massive tapestries off the walls and use them like nets.

Throw tables at the dwarf like improvised area effect siege weaponry. Force him to make reflex saves to get out of the way.

Pick up cauldrons of boiling soup and pour it on the dwarf.

Have an ogre grab a brazier of red hot coals and smash it over the dwarf, sending red hot ash and embers into his eyes.

Grab the carpet in the hall and pull it out from under the dwarf, tripping him.

Better yet, grab the carpet in the hall and roll it up, catching the dwarf inside (reflex save perhaps?).

Dwarves are naturally slow (20ft movement). Put in some difficult terrain and keep the foes moving, use their greater speed to your advantage. Or make some difficult terrain. Remember those handy bits of furniture and old tapestries? Thrown into a hallway in front of the advancing dwarf will slow him to a...

This...

And others mentioned sewage/grease (natural) & pits/water/terrain
And this:
Barb 2 (stat up that Dex and maybe use Urban Barb for Dex boost of +8, 12 w/ potion) + Lesser Hurling for touch attack.
Quick Draw (L. Hurling is Full Round), PA (can use w/ Hurling), Pt. Blank Shot (Hurling has 10' increments anyway)
Still hard to hit, but a lot more, and it'll hurt.

If you have open areas, a squad of Ogre archers could do well.
Ogre Barb 1: Deadly Aim, Pt. Blank (but stay back), Rapid Shot. Still need '20', but w/ mw comp longbows +9 or so Str. (only when raging), 2d6+13, 2 chances/round.

Flatfooted he loses lots of AC, so see what works there, such as having him use Acrobatics on narrow surface/uneven terrain or
Use Intimidate feats/rage/rogue (thug) abilities + Intimidating Prowess/Skill Focus.
Example: Ogre "Intimidator" Warrior 6, CR 6, with IP/SF=+19 + Str + Cha + Size difference vs. 18 (level 8) + Dwarf's Wisdom bonus.
Dazzling Display to use it on whole party.
Feats: DD/IP/SF, Weapon Focus (prereq for DD) then either Power Attack or Shatter Defenses (though that only affects that Ogre's attacks, and he needs a first hit to cause flatfooted, so iffy...)
If you use multiple "Ogre Intimidators", one can induce shaken, while the other turns shaken to frightened, etc... Best case is half panic and run while the others don't. Close doors & lock out half the party, perhaps w/...

Portcullis trap. Split party, even if temporary, it can frighten players quite a bit.

Oil, as in barrels of: Not just slippery, also nicely flammable.

Altitude: Especially if the Ogre's have Improved Bull Rush, making the PCs repeat the run up while others are alone above, which brings us to...

"Pounders": Ogre Warrior 3, CR 4.5 (round as you deem best) : Tower Shield (warriors get prof.) & Plate makes them durable.
PA, Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush (plus one more). Sole job is to knock PCs around to get to tasty innards (casters) or send over edges.
Overrun: As above, but no edges, and with Ogres who stand over prone PCs. Maybe clog whole battlefield so there's nowhere to stand for PCs.
And both of those provoke AoOs from nearby Ogres for extra chances at '20's (which w/ PA still hurts)
Sunder: Lose shield, use magic oil on TH weapon. (though less 'fun' if it actually works...)
Cleave is a nice use of the extra feat. Swing at a soft target first, and get the free chance at '20' on the hard target. (Of course, a save bonus may be necessary w/ such large groups)

Anyway, good luck,
JMK


You could just give the ogres ghost touch weapons which they stole from some shades and then when they die the shades swoop in to retrieve the weapons give the party a chance to kill them with AoOp but not a high one if they succeed they get a weapon per shade they slay if they fail sucks for them the shades disappear with the weapons that were stolen from them.


.... new bbeg spell.

creature only teleport

functions as teleport just no gear.

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