in this situation a 10th lvl Tetori goes to grapple a 10th lvl fighter.
as i am unfamiliar with grappling, I need to know if I am right on the mechanics.
The Tetori's CMB beats the fighter's CMD.
That is the end of the Tetori's turn
The Fighter has the choice of trying to break it, which is basically impossible, or use his multiple attacks at -2 to hit.
In this situation, I don't see how trading punches with a fighter, even with the fighter at -2 to hit is a good match for the tetori.
also the monk gets constrict and all his usual attacks (2)?
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The monk must spend his standard to maintain the grapple, but can use that to try to pin his oppenent, which essentially takes him out of the fight. If he has the greater grapple feat he can do it as a move action and also use his standard to deal damage or, i think do something else.
The fighter is at -2 to hit, but the monk is at -2 ac from being grappled, so it pretty much cancels out.
The monk must spend his standard to maintain the grapple, but can use that to try to pin his oppenent, which essentially takes him out of the fight. If he has the greater grapple feat he can do it as a move action and also use his standard to deal damage or, i think do something else.
The fighter is at -2 to hit, but the monk is at -2 ac from being grappled, so it pretty much cancels out.
And if this is a 1 on 1 fight, the fight basically come to a halt, as they hug each other from a pinning position?
And if this is a 1 on 1 fight, the fight basically come to a halt, as they hug each other from a pinning position?The monk must spend his standard to maintain the grapple, but can use that to try to pin his oppenent, which essentially takes him out of the fight. If he has the greater grapple feat he can do it as a move action and also use his standard to deal damage or, i think do something else.
The fighter is at -2 to hit, but the monk is at -2 ac from being grappled, so it pretty much cancels out.
a tetori's bonus feats will help him win out at higher levels when he starts doing ability damage.
There are a few more penalties that come along with being grappled:
1. Inability to use anything that requires two hands.
2. Inability to move.
3. More difficult to cast spells.
4. Inability to make AoO.
If we are talking 10th level Tetori, then both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grapple are on the table.
If you don't start adjacent, then yes - you'd only get a single grapple after your move... but if you force him to come to you it gets more interesting.
A character with Rapid Grapple can make up to three grapple checks in a single round - first as a standard action, second as a move and third as a swift.
And if the Tetori can pin the opponent, he still only remains grappled - which means he can continue to bring the hurt.
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As Waffle states, the idea about grappling is to pin the opponent.
Being a tetori, you have pretty much everything you need for grappling.
Round 1:
- You can either choose to grapple as normal, or to make your normal two attacks, but spend 1 ki point to get the grab ability (the latter is preferable if you have a good chance of hitting the figter).
Round 2:
- Due to greater grapple, use a move action to mantain the grapple and pin the target. For the fun of it, use a swift action to make a stunning fist attempt on the fighter.
- Take another combat maneuver check to tie up the fighter.
Round 3:
- Eat a snack, while you watch the helpless fighter wrestle to bonds, most likely unable to reach the DC of 20 + your CMD.
Also by level 10 the Tetori is dealing double non-lethal damage on each damage roll to the pinned fighter adds up real fast when you do it twice a round.
A grapple specialist could well be able to Pin on the first round, if they didn't spend a Move Action already.
That leaves the Fighter not able to retaliate. Even when not Pinned but merely Grappled, if the Fighter uses a 2Handed Weapon or 2WF he won't be able to and will be stuck with 1Handed attacks.
If you are so good at Grappling, you can afford to Fight Defensively, boosting your AC vs. the targets attacks.
In any case, given the mostly binary nature of D&D combat, unless Tetori dude thinks he can drop the Fighter in 1 round, he will be taking Fighter dude's Full Attack ANYWAYS. Grapple forces that to be 1Handed attacks which may very well be totally unoptimized for the Fighter in terms of Feats, Abilities and Equipment. Besides, what is the other option for the Tetori? Attacking normally? Full Attack and Flurrying that can be OK, although the Fighter will still likely have higher to-hit via Feats and Weapon Training, but Standard Action Attacks leaves the Tetori at a BAB disadvantage, and again, if you can't drop the Fighter in that one attack, you will likely be eating a Full Attack, so if you can only make a Standard Action, either because you moved or you are Slowed, etc, Grapple is pretty decent, especially if you are really good at it.
With Greater Grapple, you can even Grapple multiple opponents... Rapid Grapple potentially allows for 3/round.
Even though its late to the game at 15th level the tetori can get the final embrace line which culminates at level 19 with double unarmed damage with every successful grapple check which would be tripled i belive not quadrupled if its non-lethal.
Also by level 10 the Tetori is dealing double non-lethal damage on each damage roll to the pinned fighter adds up real fast when you do it twice a round.
How? I did not see that double damage in the Tetori description.
How? I did not see that double damage in the Tetori description.Also by level 10 the Tetori is dealing double non-lethal damage on each damage roll to the pinned fighter adds up real fast when you do it twice a round.
the tenth level bonus feat.
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Even though its late to the game at 15th level the tetori can get the final embrace line which culminates at level 19 with double unarmed damage with every successful grapple check which would be tripled i belive not quadrupled if its non-lethal.
Unfortunately going straight Tetori you can't ever get Final Embrace Master, unless you manage to get constrict before 13th level. Final Embrace Horror requires Ability Focus (Constrict) and for that you need constrict. So if you were straight Tetori, you'd get Final Embrace at 15th, AF(Constrict) (which is an absolutely useless feat since there is no DC for constrict to get a +2 to) at 17th, and FEH at 19th.
Of course, at that point you could take a couple of levels of fighter and get it with the bonus feats as a 1st & 2nd lvl fighter, but straight monk, not possible.
Also, the wording for them (should you be able to get FEM) you actually get quad damage. :)
Benefit: Double the number of damage dice for your
constrict special attack.
Benefit: While you have an opponent pinned, when you
succeed at a grapple combat maneuver check to deal an
opponent nonlethal damage using an unarmed strike or
a light or one-handed weapon, double your damage result.
Any creature that is immune to critical hits is immune to
the effects of this feat.
So, you'd double your Unarmed damage dice (FEM) (2d8 becomes 4d8) add your damage mods (4d8+x, Ave 18+x), then double the result(PK) (36+2x). Pretty slick if you can pull it off.
Grappling is one of those things that has its place, and I would not use it as a primary strategy.
I was in a campaign with a grapple specialist. Most encounters ended up with him rolling a gazillion dice while the rest of the group watched and waited for our chance to roll two or three dice. Then it was his turn to roll a gazillion dice again.
All so he could essentially take one opponent out of action until he crushed it into a bloody pulp, while the rest of the party still had to deal with the rest of the enemy.
Sure he was an awesome one-on-one fighter, but as a player I found it very unappealing to be part of the party while he did his grapple-frapple thing every round.
When you take the rest of the feats into consideration, Grappling gets particularly devastating. Take a look at the Jawbreaker->Bone Breaker->Neck Breaker feat line. Makes it harder for them to break the grapple when you're doing 1d6 to 2d6 strength or dex damage. Utilizing Chokehold is also particularly fun, considering (as per suffocation rules) whenever you take a standard or full round action while holding your breath, the total number is reduced by one, and when they run out of breath, they must start making constitution checks or fall unconscious in the first round, -1 hp and dying the second, and dies the third.
Also, Adamantine Dragon, either your exaggerating a bit too much, or your grappler didn't know how to bundle his turn so things go faster.
Properly built a Tetori Monk can be devastating. I've played three so far, and have been playing grapplers since 3.0 (in 3.0/5 our DM had a bunch of house rules to make it more viable, so I was chucking foes off roofs and bridges and what not all the time. PF not so much). I actually found one that can be as devastating, if not more so, than the Tetori, but I'm still working out the build. If done properly grappling can be particularly effective in any real martial class. If the player hasn't gotten used to it, he might take a little while, but he won't be rolling a gazillion dice. No more so than those full BAB two weapon warrior types or RAGEPOUNCERS. If anything a grappler does, at most, 3 grapple checks a round, with up to 3 rolls for damage. Compare this to 4+ attack rolls a round, with 4+ rolls of weapon damage and extra damage dice.
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Doing damage with grappling is meh eventually. Grappling, pinning and hog tieing an opponent in 1-2 rounds is far more humilating, leaving you to focus on other threats.
If you can succeed on the checks to do damage, why not use those same successes to render a foe essentially impotent.
If you still want to do damage, full attacking a tied up foe is better.
I've been wondering exactly how far you can push the grappling build set up. Would it be worth dropping some feats to go the internal alchemist/vivisectionist master chymist route for burly which snags you an extra 5 and a larger size modifier, sneak attack, and extracts? Sure you lose grab and constrict, but you pick it back up from the polymorph.
...I would like to see such a build Jak - I think it could be quite cool, but I don't really know much about the alchemist... Anyone up for the challenge of trying to build it? :)
I spent fifteen minutes theorycrafting it in my head earlier. Ehhhmmmm. Give me a bit and I'll drag up a rough build for the idea.
Edit: Maybe later too tired.
I've been wondering exactly how far you can push the grappling build set up.
I'll post up my rather vicious looking theorycraft build to show you exactly how far you can push the concept. By 20th level you're dealing 4d8+16d6+Extra(Strength score, Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc) as a baseline with a single turn.
Edit: Perhaps tomorrow. Need to re-finalize it after finding something I missed beforehand.
I can personally vouch for Grappling being devastating in the extreme. Witnessing whats possible from someone with Greater Grapple/Rapid Grapple + Human favored class bonus to Grapple CMD (there is no escape!), anything that starts its turn adjacent to our parties Brawler is pretty much done. Grab, Pin, Tie Up is a one shot KO that nothing without a ridiculous CMD can resist. Some things even WITH a ridiculous CMD have been epically pinned by this guy.
And once they're pinned, its near impossible to get out before the rest of the party can finish it off, or if the grappler gets another round, Dragon Ferocity means they're about to suffer a brutal barrage of damage... if the grappler even bothers. Most times, being tied up is plenty bad.
EDIT: You guys looking at grapple damage, dont forget Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity for bonuses to your unarmed damage when you choose to deal damage while grappling.
Also, Adamantine Dragon, either your exaggerating a bit too much, or your grappler didn't know how to bundle his turn so things go faster.
Nope, no exaggeration at all. It was precisely one gazillion dice he rolled each turn. :)
Seriously, as I recall he had three grapple checks per round. That meant the GM also had to roll three opposing checks. Yes each rolled their dice simultaneously, but they still had to compare and see if one was successful.
It's been awhile, but as I recall, if one of the grapple attempts was successful, he got more rolls to attempt to pin or else he got more rolls to do attacks vs the opponent. And then he would get all his damage dice, which I recall being five or six dice itself.
While all this was going on the other players would be roaming into the kitchen, checking their email or going outside to smoke a cigarette...
Opposing checks? Is this 3.5 again?
Opposing checks? Is this 3.5 again?
Yeah, pathfinder grappling actually requires very few rolls. In most cases, far fewer than a normal Full Attack.
If you just so happen to be a halfling monk and you manage to grapple someone(not that hard considering the size penalty is only -1), the chance of them breaking free gets slimmer. The favored class bonus is just awesome.
Grappling is awesome for spellcasters who want to grapple. Magi are a great example of this, but even core wizards and sorcerers can get in on the game. Improved Grapple and true strike essentially means an auto-grapple. Once you have successfully grappled a foe, you get a +5 bonus on subsequent grapple checks, making it easier to pin a foe. At higher levels, a quickened true strike makes the -10 penalty to tie someone or something up while grappling them negligible, as you now would have a net +17 over whatever your BAB + Str would suggest to tie them up.
Once bound, they cannot escape your rope unless they overcome a DC 20 + your modified combat maneuver bonus (which is at BAB + 2 + 5 + 10 due to your true strike at the time of binding), which is effectively hopeless. You have now defeated any foe you can grapple within 2 rounds, rendering them helpless, which is an excellent time to follow up with a coup de grace from a scythe or light pick.
Of course, being a spellcaster may mean that you are yourself immune to being grappled, since freedom of movement is your friend. If such is the case, you can happily enjoy grappling everyone and their neighbor without being grappled yourself.
Anyone check out the new grappling feat in the Dragon Empires Primer, Sleeper Hold? :D
I don't have it yet, what's it do?
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Barbarian 10 is where the grappling magic happens. Why?
Body Bludgeon (Ex): While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the opponent is sized Small. Larger or smaller creatures used as a bludgeon deal damage based on their size using this base damage. A size Tiny creature deals 1d6 points of damage, a size Medium creature deals 1d10 points of damage, and so on. The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. Whenever the barbarian hits using the pinned opponent as a weapon, she deals damage to her target normally, and the grappled opponent used as a bludgeon also takes the same damage she dealt to the target. If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon. A barbarian must be at least 10th level before selecting this rage power
With rapid grapple, here's how it goes:
Round 1: wizard casts enlarge person on you. You pop strength surge, grapple, pin, and hogtie enemy #1
Round 2: You proceed to make three grapple checks (each time getting to chomp enemy #1 with your bite attack from animal fury) and get to bash enemy #2 with enemy #1 3 times at full base attack bonus dealing damage both to enemy #1 and enemy #2.
Is there anything in Pathfinder more awesome than that? Undoubtedly the halfling Tetori or something is more optimized... but nothing is more awesome.
That is pretty cool.
I still like them image though of a master chymist warping into his mutagen form and then munching a cookie of giant form, troll, and pinning down and chain smashing, with sneak attack from vivisectionist, the offending individual ignoring the incoming damage because hey I'm a troll and I regenerate, oh yeah and I ate some amplified potions of protection from energy acid and fire potions this morning so there isn't much you can do about it.
Insert delayed consumption for emergencies.
Note target the person that can dispel first and foremost.
Edit: Shame he can't get body bludgeon though.
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Anyone check out the new grappling feat in the Dragon Empires Primer, Sleeper Hold? :DI don't have it yet, what's it do?
Basically while you're maintaining a grapple you declare each round you're using the feat (which I don't understand why they added the part where a failed check ruins the attempt, since a failed check would mean you're no longer grappling anyway... Its not like you only have so many uses of the feat, weird). After maintaining it for consecutive rounds equal to their con mod, they need to make fort saves (10 + 1/2 lvl + str) or fall unconscious for 1d4 rounds. Every round its held puts a cumulative -1 penalty on the next save.
To the OP, it can be VERY worth it.
If it's something like AM BARBARIAN, yes he can much you or stab you with his dagger at least until you manage to pin him. But he can't use his rage/lance/pounce for humongeous amounts of damage.
The wizard probably can't hit you with any spell until he can get away. Which might be very hard depending upon his prepared spells.
The 6 armed skeleton with a bunch of feats to mutli-weapon you to death with scimitars 9d6+spec+str+imp crit, can no only hit you with 6d3+str worth of attacks.
Be careful though, the rogue/assassin probably has a small poisoned blade to stab you with a bunch of times.