I know the main consensus is that prestige classes suck in general. What do you think are the best of the bunch though? Which ones suck beyond belief?
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I know the main consensus is that prestige classes suck in general. What do you think are the best of the bunch though? Which ones suck beyond belief?
I'm not a big fan of PrCs in general, but the Harrower hits my two requirements like the fist of an angry god;
A) tightly setting-themed and flavorful as all heck
B) mechanically does not suck
Other than that, I've yet to see a Golarion PrC I'd be willing to lose core class levels for.
I know the main consensus is that prestige classes suck in general. What do you think are the best of the bunch though? Which ones suck beyond belief?
I know somebody who can't stop talking about how awesome is the Diabolist class; imp companion is awesome, channel hellfire is pretty nifty, and free Augment Summoning with no prereq is nice if you can wait until 9th character level. And you give up... pretty much nothing.
Dragon Disciple ranks pretty highly in my books, being highly flavourful and mechanically interesting (advancing your bloodline abilities and going even beyond what your class offers, at the cost of spellcasting), and a viable alternative for sorcerers of that bloodline who want some combat flavour.
Conversely, the Eldritch Kight seems to be one of the worst. Several levels without interesting abilities, and the one thing interesting about it...well, has a mechanical clash with the 2 feats that are meant to support warrior-mages. IMO, in light of the many interesting options given to bards and magi that allow them to fulfil this role, the eldritch knight badly needs to be re-written. As it is, even WotC's Knight Phantom is more interesting (without being overpowered) and seems better thought out!
To me, most of them are pretty suboptimal, and would be better off as archetypes or full classes. There is only one that seems like a no brainer.
Dragon Disciple is pretty much a must-do if you want to be a Draconic Sorcerer at all. Unless you just really want the extra three spell levels, there is no reason not to take levels in it. You still get your bloodline powers normally, you become a lot tougher and stronger, and you get access to some of the same stuff a lot faster than being a normal Draconic Sorcerer. It just makes sense.
When you stop caring about optimization, many PRC's are awesome for roleplay and flavor purposes. I for one love the shadowdancer despite the irritating entry requirements and the low BAB progression.
I know the main consensus is that prestige classes suck in general. What do you think are the best of the bunch though? Which ones suck beyond belief?
I know somebody who can't stop talking about how awesome is the Diabolist class; imp companion is awesome, channel hellfire is pretty nifty, and free Augment Summoning with no prereq is nice if you can wait until 9th character level. And you give up... pretty much nothing.
i'm currently playing a thassilonian sin conjurer prc'd into diabolist and the imp is awesome. The prc sucks unless your dm leta you early entry via scrolls though, i scrolled my imp at level 5.
The problem with prc's for casters is the lack of spells in the spellbook though, its a heavy hit unless you work around it. I quite enjoy roleplaying the arguments and negotiations with other casters to swap spells though, or bullying them into give me access to their books.
The pathfinder prc's are quite good as well, being able to take heal as esoteric magic at a higher level with the savant prc could be handy.
I love the flavor of the Pathfinder Savant and the Cyphermage, and I still wonder which one to go with for my Half-Fiend Elf Necromancer. She's basically obsessed with magical knowledge (she's aiming for divinity, go figure), and she might be just as interested in the secrets of Thassilon as she is in the knowledge hidden in musty tomes in the extensive libraries of the Pathfinder Society.
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Remember back when prestige classes were, you know, prestigious rather than pitiable? Pathfinder nerfed them and then, to really bury them, offered too many incentives to remain single/base classed. Consequently, few if any of the Prestige Classes compare favorably with the base classes. [/rant]
I'm currently playing a fun Mystic Theurge which I simply wouldn't have considered playing if my GM hadn't allowed some key 3.5 material into the campaign to make it viable.
Prestige classes are more of a complement to an existing character than a class by itself
Someone said that EK sucks because of the magus/because it doesnt get a lot of neat stuff
But If i want to make a fighter/Sorcerer to take advantage of a bloodline, then the natural progression would be Fighter/Sorcerer/EK as opposed to Fighter/Sorcerer/Magus
The EK is there to fill level gaps for gishes and does so quite well: full BAB, full spellcasting -1, d10 hp and a few bonus feats. It does what it needs to do: increase casting ability without compromising martial ability and giving good hp rolls.
It's also not a hard class to pick up on. Unlike other PrC's, you don't need to jump through hoops to do it. All you need is a martial class (which you should have if you plan on fighting anyway, and even if you don't have it, it's a one level dip) and lv3 arcane spells (we like spells do we not?)
Another example is the Arcane Trickster
It has a few more requirements (Sneak 2d6 which means rogue 3 most of the time, Lv2 arcane spells, ranks in a few skills and mage hand), And you get d6 HP rolls (Bad), 1/2 BAB progression (Bad, but irrelevant), full spellcasting (good) and a bunch of abilities that compliment both your spellcasting and rogue stuff.
Before you take your first level in AT, though, you have the capability to sneak and to cast spells (which should be touch spells anyway) so you were already playing a flatfooted touch AC-hitting guy. Just like EK, this PrC is complimenting the play style you were already trying to achieve and made it more viable.
Same thing applies to Arcane Archer. Lots of feats needed, a BAB req, etc, but it gives you full BAB and 7/10 spellcasting; which is fine because you don't go through all that because you wanted lv9 spells. You did it to full round attack with your bow and kill stuff dead.
And again, just like EK and AT, before you took your first level in the prestige class you were already casting buffs on yourself and shooting stuff with your bow. Hell, coupled with what I saw earlier, you can feasibly do Sorc (or wiz)1/Ranger 6/Arcane Archer 8/EK 5 to get 19 BAB, 11 CL, 2 bonus combat style (Archery) feats, 2 Bonus combat Feats, a good fort save, and most of the benefits of Arcane Archer (Align weapon is neat i guess, and i dont like arrow of death myself, but whatever)
Dragon Disciple is probably the best PrC hands down and I'd prob do some ranger natural attack combat style to go with the claw/bite attacks.
And for what it's worth, after doing my 10 levels in DD, it'd prob go EK so i can keep getting my spells (to cast in dragon form maybe? or buffs that can last for the whole day beforehand) and full BAB.
As for nonspellcasting classes, let's look at the Duelist: Friggin Awesome. You can do some crazy Rogue/Fighter/Duelist build that has stupid high AC, hits high, and even gets in there with some sneak should he be flanking. And just like before, the abilities are there to enhance your existing build, not to overshadow it.
I like the PrC's because they encourage you being your own character through the whole game, and simply make it easier for you to do the stuff you created your character to do.
Except for Mystic Theurge. He cries himself to sleep.
You mean back in the good old days when base classes sucked so badly, you jumped into a PrC as fast as you could?
Yeah. It was a magical time... ;)
Don't get me wrong, I like that Paizo made the base classes viable again. I just believe they went too far. Now those who opt for a prestige class so as to pursue a character concept are made to feel like that lone kid waiting for the short bus while watching all the other kids riding by in the big bus and who's mom calls him "exceptional".
*sigh*
PrCS used to be necessary, given how warped the skill system was in 3.5 and the fact that some of the base classes were in the doldrums around level 4 to 6.
With a better base skill system and base classes that get something every level PrCs don't look so hot as a mechanical choice anymore. I'm fine with that. It was irritating to have a player with a character that had 6 different classes by level 10.
PrCs should be RP choices, they should represent the character making a conscious decision to join a group or take up a cause. There should be ramifications to that decision that happen in game and not mathematic ramifications.
That said; I love the duelist, it fills a need both mathematically and thematically.
The Chevaleir is a cool class that covers certain weaknesses in the core fighter while making all the points for RP purposes for a follower of Cayden Cailean.
The Cyphermage is kinda cool but I haven't played one, to bad it came out so long after Second Darkness.
Arcane Archer is still one of the best PrCs around. It's perfect for what it is.
The EK is weird, I used to love these guys, but the Magus is just better for a Gish type. If it were redone where it focused more on the Fighter than the Caster class I could see it as a balance fix for high level games where the fighter starts to lag. It's old RP value has been stolen by the Magus however.
The Bloatmage is cool if gross, I use one as a recurrent foil in my campaign and my players hate that guy. They also say he's the best recurrent bad guy I've ever used.
I've never seen the point to the Shadowdancer outside of the FR setting, someone more motivated than me needs to write up a place in Golarion for them.
All of the Pathfinder Society classes are cool, the fighter one is something I've wanted to play for a while now.
The Hellknight is wicked and well balanced from the readthrough.
I think the Loremaster is a weak choice for a PC, but it may just be that I've never seen it done well. I used to laugh at the Horizon Walker until I played in a certain Planescape campaign and the party Ranger/HW saved all of our butts repeatedly.
I'd like to see more PrCs for PF. This is something for the Campaign books though. PrCs without fluff are just not as cool unless they hit a universal theme, or manage to fix a rules gap like the Duelist does with Weapon Finesse. I'd hate to get into the 3.5 pit of unbalanced PrCs glutting up books and breaking rules for filler, that was exhausting near the end.
Conversely, the Eldritch Kight seems to be one of the worst. Several levels without interesting abilities, and the one thing interesting about it...well, has a mechanical clash with the 2 feats that are meant to support warrior-mages. IMO, in light of the many interesting options given to bards and magi that allow them to fulfil this role, the eldritch knight badly needs to be re-written. As it is, even WotC's Knight Phantom is more interesting (without being overpowered) and seems better thought out!
I agree entirely. I know that they don't feel this way, but it just seemed like a rather @$@% move with the EK's capstone ability. Oh hey remember all those feats that you have gotten used to for the last 15-16 levels, well they are useless or the ability you worked so hard for is. The only answer I know is to go into EK via bard class, at least you can cast in armor while retaining your swift action.
Prestige Classes I like:
Diabloist -- Hey you're going to Hell but at least the trip will be fun! Played a sorcerer that went Diabloist and had two imps, it was just all sorts of fun to play, though I really only dipped the Diabloist (being human those bonus spells known and with the arcane bloodline and all too much incentive to stick with the base class after getting the one benefit I really wanted).
Eldritch Knight -- Yeah plenty of people hate on it, but I've gotten a lot of really strong use out of it before the magus came out and still do after the magus. Yes the magus has lots of neat tricks, but when you want to cast something other than, "Make it go boom" while still being able to swing steel the magus just falls short.
Master Spy -- Not a prestige class for the weak of Op, but it can be very compelling... in the right campaign -- I suggest mixing assassin levels in liberally.
Dragon Disciple -- Simply a prestige class that's hard to not like.
Duelist -- A very strong prestige class... if you have very careful in its use. Hey it's a class all about the Ritz and takes some finesse to use... I'm good with that.
Bloatmage -- Alright so how often do you really get good mechanical benefits for playing the ugly guy that isn't somehow tied to also going to hell?
Holy Vindicator -- I liked it when it first came out, I like it even more now that versatile channeler exists.
Pathfinder Savant -- sometimes it's nice to simply have a bit more versatility. Pathfinder savant is an easy prestige class to use, like and leave if it suits you... though you never really do feel pressure to leave it if you don't. I like that mix.
Mystic Theurge -- A great PrC... if you never use it how it was 'intended'. Interesting mixes like Magus 6/Cleric 3 and Bard 5/Cleric 3 can easily make nice use of the unique synergy that Mystic Theurge offers. Though again not a prestige class for the faint of heart, or those bad at Op.
Stalwart Defender -- Got to like a guy with spunk... though again not exactly the easiest class to use it does look nice as a pillbox though.
Arcane Trickster -- Yet another tight PrC to use effectively but the number of tricks you can keep pulling out with it can be fun.
Master Chemyst -- I really want to like it but... it's just too easy. I mean really it's a mutagen swigging alchemist double plus good. If it had branched out the idea some, or made it easier for something other than just straight alchemist to get into we might have talked. But points for style and flavor!
PrC I don't like:
Arcane Archer -- Yawn. I mean really? Lets play, "I trade class features for gold."
Pathfinder Chronicler -- This is the captain calling, you have missed the boat.
Harrower -- Yay a class feature that does all of NOTHING for the first 5 levels. It's bad when your primary feature only activates less than half the time until after level 6, and when it does you often get a bonus that does nothing for the spell you are using. Oooh look I can throw cards at you for less damage than I can get out of a magic missile! Flavor it has, mechanics it doesn't.
Rage Prophet -- too little, too narrow, too pedantic. It's TOO SAFE -- both in design and mechanics... boring. Tell me when the barbarian is going to grow a pair and have a real rage casting prestige class.
Red Mantis Assassin -- Oooh look I'm a religious frat boy that wants to kill people and has bug issues. This one also always struck me as boring. Mantis assassin... not original, red assassins... not original... religious assassins... not original. Putting the three together in a system that already has an assassin? Still not original and quite frankly more than a little off putting actually -- especially when it's simply, "I'm an assassin with spells! Only I don't have to follow the normal rules, I'm a religious assassin, and my spells are arcane, oh and I get all the way through greater weapon specialization in my special weapon just like a fighter could. Also I have this almost rage like power I can use a number of times per day equal to my constitution and lasts for rounds = level per use that grants me a dodge bonus and fast healing and I can get rid of my body too when I die. Then I get a druid like shape change ability that uses my weapon's magic as my claw magic, and I get the ability to go ethereal as a free action that can avoid attacks! And I know if someone I kill gets back up after I kill them." I mean really who would allow this if a player simply walked up and said, "I made this neat PrC can I use it please?"
Everything else I'm pretty take it or leave it on.
LazarX you forgot the last choice:
4. Use still spell and full armor without giving up the swift action, instead taking a hit on spell level.
Honestly I've found this choice to be the easiest to take, Especially since it clears you to use a shield and sword, or to be grappled or whatever else might happen.
I think you edited after the fact... normally you use parenthesis correctly... but I have no proof so I'll go with I missed it the first time.
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The issue was more the PrC were too good, than the base classes were too terrible with exceptions of most non-magic PrCs. WotC didn't got a good job of balancing them. Paizo took a different route and avoided them. And now the balancing issues that Paizo faces are archetypes and new classes are arising. Much easier to balance content that has existed for about 10 years than to make a new class and then having much unintended consequences.
Paizo made scaling really really solid for the most part, and changes lots of class abilities to be based off of class instead of ability scores or static.
Wizards do not get spells off of PrC level up, so that stops a lot of the spell caster PrC even if they had full casting progression.
Favored class bonuses help this further. Small bonuses like it are fine as long as they are "free". It's the better than nothing feel.
Prestige Classes I have played and loved:
Eldritch Knight (started at 16th level, so I started out with 9 levels of EK, I doubt it'd have been as fun working into the PrC though)
Horizon Walker (picked up after several levels of Paladin in a 90% subterranean game - favored terrain bonuses were amazing in this case)
Master Chymist (Barbarian/Alchemist prior to picking this up - LOADS of fun!)
Arcane Archer (Ranger/Sorceror prior to qualifying for this one - really, really loved how much I could pack into my bow and how it dovetailed with favored enemy)
Prestige Classes I have played and NOT loved:
Mystic Theurge (I felt mostly useless - sure, I had a crapton of spells, but I never used much more than 1/2 of them before the rest of the party had burned through their "adventuring day")
Prestige Classes I will likely play soon:
Battle Herald
Dragon Disciple
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